Amp Specs
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New member Username: JwaBay of plentyNew zealand Post Number: 4 Registered: Nov-06 | i have an old technics SA-R230 stereo receiver and i cant find the specs for it at all.. does anyone know them?or have them... cheers |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10125 Registered: May-04 | . Something like 17" wide, 6" high and 13" deep. Why do you ask? |
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Silver Member Username: Sinful_systems70Post Number: 566 Registered: Nov-06 | Those would be the "dimensions" not the specs. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10162 Registered: May-04 | . They are the only "specs" that matter. Anything else is irrelevant to how the unit will operate under dynamic conditions driving a real world load. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6639 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.okazii.ro/catalog/2908329/electronice/echipamente-audio-video/sisteme -audio/VAND-AMPLITUNER-TECHNICS-R230.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 100 Registered: Jan-07 | "They are the only "specs" that matter. Anything else is irrelevant to how the unit will operate under dynamic conditions driving a real world load." Jan, you must be kidding. Specs can never be "totally irrelevant". I guess if I have speakers with specs indicating they can accept 25 watts max and I connect them to a 500 watt amp and run it full blast, I should not expect them to blow. What a ridiculous assertion. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10174 Registered: May-04 | . No, you dumbass, common sense overrides any specification. Speaker specs are even less useful than amplifier specs, but no one would expect a speaker to withstand outright abuse. However, you could take a speaker "with specs indicating they can accept 25 watts max" and run it from a 500 watt amplifier and not expect problems if you apply common sense. And you can blow up a speaker "with specs indicating they can accept 500 watts max" with a 25 watt amplifier if you don't apply common sense. Common sense tells me that 1200 watt car stereo amp doesn't really put out 1200 watts from a 12VDC battery. Common sense tells me the $139 boombox can't really manage 250 watts and the speakers in it don't really go from 20-30kHz. Specs don't mean much in the real world. If you want a different answer, find someone else to give it. Bye bye! . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Extreme SQ FTW Missouri Post Number: 2259 Registered: Dec-06 |  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6651 Registered: Dec-04 | It weighs 8 kilos. It can destroy any speaker of any description. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6652 Registered: Dec-04 | Aldough it shure looks good down by da ce-ment pond. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 103 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, you idiot, don't get mad at me, I only quoted you. Maybe you should say what you mean rather than expect the rest of us to guess. I realize, however, you probably can do no better. I've seen you babble scattered throughout. "They are the only "specs" that matter. Anything else is irrelevant to how the unit will operate under dynamic conditions driving a real world load." Jan |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10175 Registered: May-04 | . Wha'ja having problems with there, Jim Bob? It's an honest and correct statement that anyone with any brains should understand. That you can't grasp it's value isn't surprising if your first response is any indication of how you think these things through. If you don't agree, argue your point rather than slandering the messenger like a little child. "Aww, Mom, somebody called me a dumbass." "Oh, Jim Bob, you poor little dumbass, I knew this day would come." Step up to the table and give it a try. I don't think you can prove any other specification to be of real world value. Babble, huh? You dumbass! . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Extreme SQ FTW Missouri Post Number: 2263 Registered: Dec-06 | Yeah SOOO many factors play into what you hear. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6681 Registered: Dec-04 | That 70's Jan Hey Red, lighten up. And go easy on the noobs. Sometimes people just don't understand, so they come here. Just your spec's comment, not everybody would get it. |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 479 Registered: Apr-06 | Jan killed it I lol'ed |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10183 Registered: May-04 | . JIMMMMMMMMMbob? Are you there? Is you pondering? . |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 104 Registered: Jan-07 | Take Jan's advice. Go out and buy a receiver based solely on its dimensions. After all, according to him, that's all that matters. Hook it up and good luck. Or you can use some intelligence, look at the specs and see if it is compatible with your speakers and other components. Your choice. I guess federal law that requires spec publication is just one huge piece of comsumer pork barrell. Jan is an idiot savant, minus the savant. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1703 Registered: May-05 | Jan, If you know who you're arguing with, you wouldn't even bother. The name Dale Wiley ring a bell? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10193 Registered: May-04 | . Ring a bell?! It makes my hemorrhoids ache! Any proof? If so, I'll get him killt agin!!! We don't cotton to his kind in these here parts. Obviously jimbobthepoorlittledumbass can't come up with a spec he thinks is important enough to debate so he just won't try. Come on, DA, tell me what spec tells you whether a receiver is compatible with your speakers and other components? I'm particularly interested in that other components thing. How's that work? |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 105 Registered: Jan-07 | Who is this Dale Wiley that everyone seems to know? If he calls Jan on some of his insane assertions, then he garners my respect. And of course, Stu Pitt must also worship at the feet of Jan and has no brain of his own. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 106 Registered: Jan-07 | Well, the evidence of people with petty minds manifests itself in those who wish to ban others with whom they disagree. Hitler and his gang did the same thing. I guess Jan owns this forum. If that is the case, we are all in serious trouble. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10195 Registered: May-04 | . Sure sounds familiar. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 108 Registered: Jan-07 | Folks it's simple. Just ignore specs and purchase per the rules of the almighty Jan-just make sure the receiver fits your space. Don't worry about things like power and distortion. According to Jan, those "specs" are irrelevant. Happy listening. And that's all I have to say about that. Jan, if your "hemorrhoids ache", you should probably get some medicine for your head where I feel confident they are located. Over and out. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10197 Registered: May-04 | . Obviously can't read. Still no specs to consider important. How long ya figure to be 'round this time, DA? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6729 Registered: Dec-04 | popcorn, peanuts, programmes, get your cold beer here! |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 483 Registered: Apr-06 | Doesnt he work for MIcrosofty |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10205 Registered: May-04 | . You mean you think someone would actually employ dw? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 476 Registered: Apr-06 | I'd like to think this is more of a miscommunication than anything. Certainly the specs that most manufacturers put down are dubious at best. If Sony specs that receiver X will put out 100 watts at 8 ohms, what does that mean to the consumer? Too many other variables are missing. In either case, it certainly doesn't say what receiver X will do with loudspeaker Y. Now Jan, I think you've left out at least a few important specs like color, voltage, and weight from your list. So of course this is begging Jim Bob's question, how do you choose a receiver? Listening with the intended speaker/receiver combo is certainly a good way. In depth measurements certainly help sort the wheat from the chaff as well. Something like the powercube test from the audio critic can at least demonstrate that an amplifier can handle a decent array of demanding loads. Obviously it isn't going to say how receiver X sounds, but it is something to start with. Anyways, such is my take. Do what you will with it. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1162 Registered: Oct-04 | Yeah Jim Bob, the only spec that DOESN'T lie is the weight of the unit. The additional weight is for a larger power supply and heat sinks. The performance of the unit is stronger the heavier it is. Otherwise aren't all the specs generally the same anyway??? |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 123 Registered: Jan-07 | Kano, specs are an important reference starting point. I did not say that they are the only consideration. But you and Jan are simply wrong if you believe they are irrelevant. However, if that's the way you want to purchase equipment, go on with your bad self. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10217 Registered: May-04 | . And still no statement of which "specs" are important and why they would be so. Sad, very sad. Always, "I'm right but I can't tell you why because I don't know why other than I don't like you because you're always right so you're wrong." All hat, no cattle. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 124 Registered: Jan-07 | if that's the way you want to purchase equipment, go on with your bad self. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1724 Registered: May-05 | Kano, Even the weight of the unit can be misleading. Class D and T amps are pretty light relative to everything else. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1163 Registered: Oct-04 | Yeah but who in their right mind purchases a receiver with a class D amp? lol I kid I kid |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6744 Registered: Dec-04 | Jim Bob. My receiver says 100w x2 @8 ohms. My speakers say 8ohms. When I turn up the volume and bass, the receiver shuts down. It gets very hot, also. But the specs on the box don't say anything about getting hot. What could be wrong? |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 128 Registered: Jan-07 | Ask Jan, you seem to hang on his every word. Oh by the way, "getting hot" would not normally be considered a spec. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6749 Registered: Dec-04 | I figgured. You are a very small joke. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6750 Registered: Dec-04 | JBJ, can you even define inter-modal distortion? Without looking it up and quoting. And no pictures, although that may limit your reading. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 130 Registered: Jan-07 | Remember my Little Hoppergrass, specs do not matter, only dimensions matter. Jansan |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1168 Registered: Oct-04 | Let me help you out JBJ, since you can't seem to answer the question every one's asking. "FEATURES GENERAL Power Output; Watts Per Channel 110 All Channels Rated @ 0.05 THD All Channels Rated @ 0.08 THD -- Weight: In Pounds 29.75 Width (inches) 17.1 Height (inches) 6.7 Depth (inches) 16.9 SOUND MODES THX Ultra2-Certified -- Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit -- D.D.S.C - D -- Processor(s) -- Bit Depth and Type 32-bit Floating Point Dolby Pro Logic IIx -- with Cinema, Music, Game Modes THX Post-Processing -- DPL (4.0), DPL2 Cinema, DD/DTS (5.1), ES Discrete (6.1), ES Matrix, Neo:6 Cinema -- THX Ultra2 7.1 Cinema, Music and Game Modes -- THX Surround EX Decoding -- Dolby Digital Surround EX Decoding dts ES Discrete 6.1 Decoding dts ES Matrix 6.1 Decoding dts Neo:6 Stereo-to-Surround Cinema and Music Modes dts 96/24 5.1 for DVD-Video Processing Dolby Headphone -- HDCD Decoder -- Audio Signal Delay (Sync. Audio with Video signal) -- By source Pure Direct/Direct/Stereo Modes on Digital/Analog inputs Stereo/Direct Modes w/Pure Analog Path 5-Channel Stereo Mode Video Game Mode Wide Screen 7.1 Mode Mono Movie Surround Mode Rock Arena Surround Mode Matrix Surround Mode Jazz Club Surround Mode Virtual Surround Mode -- For 2 Speakers/Headphones -- Multi-Channel Stereo Mode DSP Effect Modes Auto Surround Mode (Analog or Digital Input Type) Active Center Channel In All Surround Modes CONNECTIVITY True 24-bit/96-kHz Digital Input Capability True 24-bit/192-kHz Digital Input Capability (Denon Link & 1394) -- Assignable Digital Inputs Digital Input -- DENON Link 3rd (SACD Ready) -- IEEE-1394 Digital Audio Input/Output -- Digital Inputs: Coaxial 2 Digital Inputs: Optical 5 including front Digital Outputs: Optical 2 Digital to Analog REC Out -- Analog Audio Inputs, Incl. Tuner 11 Phono Input Source Function Renaming Analog Record Outputs 3 Front Panel A/V Inputs w/Cover * Composite and S-Video Drop down Door Video Conversion --Composite to S-Video to Component Video Conversion -- Composite to S-Video to Composite Video Conversion -- Analog to HDMI DVI/HDMI Video Inputs -- Compatible with 1.1 Spec. -- Multi-Channel Audio 2 HDMI HDMI Video Outputs *1080p 1 Composite Video Inputs 7 Composite Video Outputs 2 + Monitor S-Video Inputs 7 including front S-Video Outputs 2 + Monitor Component Video Inputs x Bandwidth - *Assignable 3 x 100MHz Component Video Outputs 2 6-Ch. External Analog Input -- 8-Ch. External Analog Input Banana Plug Speaker Terminals, All Channels Cinema EQ Front A/B Speaker Selector -- 56 Station Auto-Preset Memory Tuning Radio Data System (RDS) -- XM Satellite Radio 'Connect and Play' Ready -- with optional antenna Direct Function (Tone Bypass) Volume Control Un-muting Selectable Muting Levels (Full/-40/-20) Video Select Control RS-232 Port -- Third Party Remote Controllers RJ-45 Ethernet Port -- Same Functionality as AVR-5805/4806 -- PC Setup and Control Capability -- IR Serial Remote In/Out terminals +12v Trigger Output - Assignable Multi-Source/Multi-Zone (*Uses REC OUT) Pre-amp Outputs for Multi-Zone High Pass Filter for Multi-Zone Outputs -- Multi-Zone Pre-Amp Outputs -- Selectable Output Levels Discrete Multi-Zone Composite Video Output - *S-Video also Y + S-Video Discrete Remote Power On/Off, Source Selection and Volume for Main and Second/Third* Zones Discrete Remote Source Selection for Zone 3 -- Assignable Amplifier Configuration of Surround Back Channels Speaker Time-Delay and Level Controls: L/R, Sub, C, Surr. L/R, Surround Back Pre-Amp Outputs 8 Internet Radio -- iPod Port (Using optional AKP-100 cable) -- iPod Dock Control Port (Using optional ASD-1R Denon iDock) -- USB Flash Drive Port -- COMPONENT TECHNOLOGY Equal Power Amplifiers Low Impedance Drive Capability High-Current/Discrete Amplifiers Independent Power Supplies Pure Audio Construction -- Toroidal Power Transformer -- Dolby Digital, dts and DSP Modes -- Analog Devices, HammerHead SHARC Dolby Digital, dts and DSP Modes -- Texas Instruments Aureus -- AL24 Processing - All Channels -- 24-bit/192-kHz DACs -- Burr-Brown PCM-1791 -- 24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Analog Devices AD-1835 Analog-to-Digital Conversion - Bit Depth/Sampling Rate 24/96 Variable High/Low Pass Crossover Points (12/24dB) 40/60/80/100/120/150/200/250 Built In Time Based Correction CONVENIENCE FEATURES Front Panel A/B Speaker Selector -- Auto Setup Calibration Auto/Manual Room Equalization Audyssey MultEqxt Room Eq. with up to eight position setup 6 position Auto Setup Microphone Included/Type Y/Mold Dual Surround Mode Spkr. Selector -- Icon-Based On-Screen Display Front Panel System Setup Control Personal Memory Plus System Setup/Surround Parameters Lockout Relay-Controlled Protection Circuits Microprocessor User Re-set Detachable Power Cord Subwoofer Peak-Level Limiter (THX) -- Pre-programmed (10 Devices) Glow Key Remote Control with Punch Through Commands Pre-programmed/Learning EL Remote with Backlighting and Punch Through Commands -- AVR-2807 $1470.00 D&M Holdings, Inc. All Rights Reserved. " http://ca.denon.com/ProductDetails/2879.asp What specs describe how the unit will sound? What specs tell how well it will drive any certain speakers? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6765 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks Kano. But you know what the fool will post back already, right? |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1169 Registered: Oct-04 | Nothing that can't have holes punched through, proving Jan's point. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2031 Registered: Sep-04 | zzzzzzzzzzz.......yawn...hmm? Something happen? |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 138 Registered: Jan-07 | "What specs describe how the unit will sound? What specs tell how well it will drive any certain speakers?"Kano There is a serious dumbing down in this forum. I stated specs are a starting and reference point not the only consideration. They tell you a hell of a lot more than just the physical dimensions. You guys would match a 500 WPC amp with speakers designed to handle only 25 WPC because the unit's dimensions would fit your space. Then you would wonder why you keep blowing your speakers when you crank up your amp/receiver. That's absurd on it's face and it's pathetic that you don't recognize it. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 485 Registered: Apr-06 | Yes, but if you pair it with a 25 wpc receiver, the receiver can still just as easily clip and destroy the speaker. This is where the rule of "turn it down when you hear distortion" comes in handy. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 140 Registered: Jan-07 | You miss the point entirely. The point is whether you make an informed decision. Buying only on dimensions is uninformed. How one uses the equipment is a separate issue. Listen, if you want to buy based on Jan's dimensions only advice, more power to you. This would be quite common for many Americans. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 488 Registered: Apr-06 | As I said before, this is miscommunication. The spec sheet only gives information that barely scratches the surface of what an amplifier will do. That is why it is not considered useful by most on this board. It isn't that the power output of a receiver isn't useful information, it is just that one number cannot give the entire picture. Get what I mean, jellybean? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10220 Registered: May-04 | . I'm really amazed that anyone person can continually hold my name in such obssessive esteem that you think everyone believes everything I say. If I have sway on this forum it is because I've earned it. I present information in an unvarnished manner but it is useful information. Unlike this jibberish about 500 watt amplifiers and 25 watt speakers. Speaker's ain't got watts, DA! That you don't understand those specifications is proof enough of your value to this forum. There are those who feel they can get better advice from somone other than myself and they ignore most of my posts. You are free to do the same and I wish you would. Those people who do not care for my advice do not reappear on this forum after their year long banishment and resume their demands that they be given as much weight when in fact they cannot explain to anyone's satisfaction what they are talking about. That was your problem when you were here as wiley and that is your problem now. Make your case without constantly attempting to tear down my reputation on this forum. My name shouldn't have to appear in each and every one of your posts. Actually, since you dislike my advice so much, I think it shouldn't appear at all. Ignore me and I will do the same with you, gladly. Those members who wish to take your words of solid, reasoned advice will follow you - if you can provide such advice. So far you've exhibited no inclination to do anything other than whine about me. If you continue to abuse the freedom this forum once again provides you, I promise you I will once again make every attempt to have you banished once more. Don't mess with me on this one. You have fooled no one who has been around this forum for any length of time. Words do not lie and you cannot escape using the exact same words as you did on your last stay here. Your obssession with me is pathological and I'm not in the mood to be stalked by someone of your bent. Take this opportunity to redeem yourself and act like an adult. Respond with facts and not insults. Otherwise, jimbobwiley, you will see what sway I have on this forum and your termination will be a delight. Start presenting your facts, young man, without reference to me. . |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 142 Registered: Jan-07 | I got what you meant a long time ago. You have done nothing to elaborate-merely restate. You suggest that the "spec sheet" contains useful information. That's exactly what I said. Jan is the one who claims it is irrelevant. Your beef is with him. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 143 Registered: Jan-07 | "You guys would match a 500 WPC amp with speakers designed to handle only 25 WPC" Jim Bob Jones "Speaker's ain't got watts, DA! That you don't understand those specifications is proof enough of your value to this forum." Jan Vigne You decide. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 489 Registered: Apr-06 | JBJ: I would venture to guess that if you can agree with my statements, you can probably agree with the intent of what Jan is saying. IOW: The spec sheet is a piss poor way to choose anything in audio. After all, going by a spec sheet, you could get a Sony 110wpc receiver (which would probably actually put out 30 on a test bench) for $250, and feel that only a complete dimwit would buy a $700 Marantz receiver that puts out a puny 90 watts. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 145 Registered: Jan-07 | Stephen, I can only judge intent by the words of the poster. Obviously, you have some other method of divining it. You use yours and I'll labor with mine. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 490 Registered: Apr-06 | I suppose it helps that I've read a lot more of Jan's thoughts. In either case, hopefully you two can come to some sort of accord, Honda or otherwise. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 147 Registered: Jan-07 | Classy response, Stephen. But for the record, I'm not seeking either an accord or acrimony, neither friend nor foe. I'm just interested in informed dialog without the megalomania and the apologists for same. If Jan and his gang meet those crtiereia, fine, if they don't, fine. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6767 Registered: Dec-04 | Rated speaker wattage is the most useless thing in print. Right before receiver wattage. Just before speaker impedence. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 150 Registered: Jan-07 | I beg to disagree with that analysis, Nuck. One might reasonably argue that description fits your entries in this forum. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10222 Registered: May-04 | . All hat, no cattle. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6771 Registered: Dec-04 | I accept that compliment, JBJ. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 151 Registered: Jan-07 | Great. I sincerely offered it. |
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New member Username: MeatspinPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-07 | Jim is just jealous because his ocucpation as a fudgepacker is not as profitable as it once was. |
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New member Username: SlntdeathPost Number: 9 Registered: Nov-06 | What most of you are forgetting when you suggest connecting 25w speakers to a 500w amp, Or suggesting that Specs are irrelevant, is that Specs are what you should base alot of decision on. They not only mention the Peak wattage (Not important) But they also describe the connectivity, and RMS wattage, As well as number of speakers an amp can handle. Dimentions alone can't tell you any of that. If you were to purchase a reciever based on dimentions, Expecting it to support HDMI in/out, And it doesn't, Who's fault is that? You Need specs to understand most of a receiver's capabilities. And by the way, A 25w amp CANT blow 500w speakers, lol. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10794 Registered: May-04 | . "And by the way, A 25w amp CANT blow 500w speakers, lol." You're right, since there are no such things as "500 watt speakers". LOL. " ... they also describe the connectivity, and RMS wattage, As well as number of speakers an amp can handle." Please explain how specs describe "connectivity" and what it is. How do "specs" describe RMS to any reasonable degree in the real world? And, tell me how specs describe how many speakers the amp can handle. I assume you mean "A+B speakers". HDMI is a feature, not a specification. You could state that HDMI is in the specifications for the construction of the amplifier, but that would be stretching the useage quite a bit. Nope, HDMI is a feature just like A+B speakers or how many tape decks you can connect. . |
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New member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-07 | Bryan, you are exactly right. But you are wasting time trying to convince this crowd. The proposition that only dimensions are specs worth considering is ridiculous on its face. Let's hope most readers of this thread disregard that foolishness. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7913 Registered: Dec-04 | I really think I am going to puke on Wiley's nievety and foolishness. Sure, Yamaha receivers put out 7x100w. Yep. And a POS 25w power source can blow up nearly anything(via oscillation and dc direct to the tweeters). OK maybe not the whole speake in flames, but tweeters, always. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1418 Registered: Nov-05 | Move over Nuck and let me in. "Sure, Yamaha receivers put out 7x100w. Yep" On individual channels, maybe but I doubt it. See, the 'specs' don't tell you that in real terms, with all channels running, the Yamaha and many other receivers will put out nowhere near those figures. Another reason, why 'specs' are fairly useless. And yes, 'features' is another thing entirely. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7926 Registered: Dec-04 | For real time power specs(and maybe some of the other specs) you can trust a few names. Rotel, Nad,H/K, Outlaw. These are proven numbers in real world tests. That is for store brands, a few 'upper' brands fall a little shy, but the more you spend the more truth you get. Just the opposite of government, where the more you spend, the more they lie for you. Kind of like some audio reviewers. The Spin Doctors...Love and Rockets. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7927 Registered: Dec-04 | And THAT truth does not reflect at all how the power will, or can react to dificult loads. Simply powering low impedence speakers is one thing, reacting to phase shifts, being able to recover against instantaneous bursts(via headroom), having an agreeable slew rate(ability to recover to a square waveform)and a host of other 'specs' depend on the load presented to the amp. If you are counting on the 'specs' from a speaker supplier, good luck. None but the best supply depth charts and such, that are available to any speaker designer, which display, in living colour, the irregularities and 'holes' in a speakers performance, which, by the way, will highlight(lowlight) deficiencies in the amp, speaker, or both.See BOSE. Specs are a fig newton of some addies imagination, stretched to extremes of legality, in a market so driven by numbers and technology that the music is lost. This is just as nature intended, so buyers of stuff, well, buy more stuff, because of a number. I have more if y'all want it. I open a beer in anticipation. Cheers, MR! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10798 Registered: May-04 | . Dennis Michael Wiley? D. Wiley??? Did little jbj finally get banned or are we just in another personality right now? . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1959 Registered: May-05 | What Bose specs Nuck? They haven't published specs in as long as I can remember. Other than wattage ratings anyway. And thats only when they randomly feel like it. You know what, I'm going to get rid of the Bryston integrated I bought because the specs suck. I got ripped off royally. $1100 for an integrated with only 4 inputs, one pair of speaker outputs, and 60 watts per channel. The worst part is how small it is. Its about a quarter as tall as my old NAD 320BEE. I knew I should have listened to the great advice here and bought a 100 watt x 6 Sony that's twice the size and almost twice as powerful, has 3 times as many channels, and HDMI switching for about $300. Then again, all 600 watts that Sony is capable of would most definitely blow up my PSBs. They've only got 125 watts. Good thing I only got 60 watts. I avoided a huge disaster. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10799 Registered: May-04 | . Good ... er, planning there, SP. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2253 Registered: Sep-04 | Bryan Schofield, a 25w amplifier is MORE likely to blow a set of speakers capable of taking 500W than a more powerful amplifier. The reason is distortion. A 25w amp is going to have to provide far more of its total output to such speakers, and will typically distort in the process. A distorted signal (such as a heavily clipped signal) is very bad news for most drive units and causes them to break. I have only a handful of examples in my experience where someone blew speakers with a more powerful amp, but I have quite a few experiences where people have blown speakers with 'lower powered' amps. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 22 Registered: Jul-07 | Yeah, Frank. Maybe they wouldn't have overtaxed the amps if they had checked the specs before purchase or pumping up the volume beyond the amp's capacity. I can't believe a reasonable person like you subscribes to the proposition to measure your cabinet and buy only according to dimensions. So if that inexpensive Panasonic will fit my cabinet, don't worry if the load of my speakers is way too heavy for it. Consumers beware!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2263 Registered: Sep-04 | Dennis, I merely responded to Bryan's point that a low powered amp can't blow a set of speakers that can cope with high power. Naturally, I subscribe to the view that one should choose components sympathetically to ensure compatibility. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 24 Registered: Jul-07 | Well thank God there is at least one other reasonable person in this thread. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10809 Registered: May-04 | . You don't even know what the hell he just said, wiley. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 25 Registered: Jul-07 | That person is certainly not Jan Vigne. Look in Webster's Dictionary for the definition of idiot and you will see his picture. Bringing more heat and less light-that's Vigne. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10812 Registered: May-04 | . What?! |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 28 Registered: Jul-07 | Doubtful I could explain it in language you could understand. And you accuse me of a comprehension deficit. What a joke!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10816 Registered: May-04 | . What?! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1421 Registered: Nov-05 | Anyone who needs a picture dictionary must be a comprehension deficit Wiley! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7957 Registered: Dec-04 | I looked in your copy of Webster's but the pop-up pictures got in the way. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2267 Registered: Sep-04 | Dennis, as I ruefully look at the oversized nature of my midriff, trust me when I assure you I don't suggest measuring cabinet size as an indicator of performance! |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 42 Registered: Jul-07 | Same here my friend. But Vigne would beg to differ with you. Fortunately, you have enough sense to separate the wheat from the chaff. My concern is that the uninitiated consumer might seriously consider some of his babble as the ultimate truth. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1209 Registered: Oct-04 | You're rediculous Wiley, always want to take a crap example and twist it to your liking. We're talking analog receivers take your digital Panasonic and join another discussion Compare some receivers and try to tell which will provide the best performance. Denon 2807 - $1099 - 110W x 7 - 29.75lbs Harman Kardon AVR - $1200 - 65W x 7 - 39lbs Yamaha RXV-2600 - $1399 - 130W x 7 - 38.3lbs Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS - $1200 - 130W x 7 - 35.1lbs Kenwood VRS-7100 - $300 - 100w x 6 - 18.9 lbs Once your feature set and connectivity is established which SPECS are you going to look at to find which amp has the goods and which doesn't?? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7964 Registered: Dec-04 | Kano, before assface comments on your spelling error, your comparison is an apt one. No mention of slew rate, IMD, SNR or a thing that matters. The mass, however, and a single or double wound torroid, do matter, at least to me. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 49 Registered: Jul-07 | Kano, notwithstanding the spelling error pointed out by Nucklehead, suggesting that amps-analog or digital-be selected only on the basis of dimensions is equally idiotic. If that's the best argument you can muster to support such a ridiculous proposition, I can fully understand why you are a devotee of Nuch and Vigne. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 31 Registered: Apr-07 | Kano- "Denon 2807 - $1099 - 110W x 7 - 29.75lbs Harman Kardon AVR - $1200 - 65W x 7 - 39lbs Yamaha RXV-2600 - $1399 - 130W x 7 - 38.3lbs Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS - $1200 - 130W x 7 - 35.1lbs Kenwood VRS-7100 - $300 - 100w x 6 - 18.9 lbs Once your feature set and connectivity is established which SPECS are you going to look at to find which amp has the goods and which doesn't??" Hm? Wouldn't you want to look at the ability to drive a lower ohm speaker? Surely driving a 4ohm speaker with an amp that doesn't list a specification (hence, no guaruntee of support) would be a rather ill conceived decision. Sorry, but even I'm a tad bit lackjawed over how someone could say specs don't "matter". The fact that a company such as Sony doesn't provide jack for them would lead me to believe that I wouldn't trust the product. On the same note, ones that go heavily in depth with listing things like the power of capacitors used, what loads it's guarunteed to drive (with the understanding of speaker architecture, which I learned after Art and Nunk told me that no, my old Technics was not that good), specs can serve some purpose. More than dimensions or weight could IMO (after all, the chasis's included in the weight, right? Thicker material = heavier amp). Either way, I just decided to bop into this thread because it looked interesting. Seriously, Jan needs to stop making his half a sentence posts which lead into such an unproductive argument which hinders the operation of the community as a whole. That's just a spectator's opinion though. Take it at face value. *yawns* |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 784 Registered: Apr-06 | "Hm? Wouldn't you want to look at the ability to drive a lower ohm speaker? Surely driving a 4ohm speaker with an amp that doesn't list a specification (hence, no guaruntee of support) would be a rather ill conceived decision. " There is much more than the nominal impedance of the speaker that determines how difficult of a load it is to drive Drew. This simple bit of information factors hugely into the discussion. If you have the full impedance curve *and* the phase angle plot of the speaker *and* a solid benchmark test of an amplifier which shows how it handles varying phase angles and impedances in a non-static way, then you could potentially determine something useful. However, few if any manufacturers of speakers provide this information of what happens in the real world. And of course, you still have no idea what the final result will be in terms of actual sound. Then there is the "no spec" way to operate. Go into the audio store that sold you your speakers. Presumably since they sold you the speakers, you thought the amplifier + speaker combo sounded good together. Have a go at the amplifier, and ensure it isn't straining/overheating/etc, even when you turn it up to what you consider high/excessive volumes. If the amplifier in question passes this test, then it is a winner, regardless of what the spec sheet says. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7969 Registered: Dec-04 | Steve, this POS will not heed a well spoken word. You are preaching to the choir, each observation spot on. Troll and nothing more, he is yet to give feedback on Intermodal Distortion. Drew, there is no regulation, anywhere which dictates requirements to be met for publishing specs. None. Some makers volunteer their wares to a society, including a few you might not imagine. Like H/K. True power numbers. Or the Integra lineup. Meets every number, including the numbers that other ignore. The published specs are worse than useless, they lure suckers in every time. THD is a long ago proven farce. A piece that fits the space is correct, the heavier the better. Then listen. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2272 Registered: Sep-04 | Some specifications ARE worth looking at! As it happens weight can be an indicator of the size of transformer and therefore ultimate power capacity of the power supply. It would be better and certainly more accurate if the manufacturer said something like 500VA transformer but that's unusual. Of course, it's only a rough guide since a) one unit may need more heatsinking (weight) than another and b) if the amp uses a switched mode power supply, the weight simply isn't a guide since switched modes are all appreciably lighter than their similarly rated linear counterparts. If a manufacturer specifies maximum RMS output power into 8 and 4 ohms, that gives a reasonable (but not completely accurate) guide to the stiffness of the power supply. If the rating goes up by 50% or more then it's pretty good. The ideal is 100% and then that's very good. That said, it still doesn't give an idea of instantaneous power so maximum power (or instantaneous power) ratings with a specified time period (e.g. 10ms) is also helpful. Items like slew rate are useful to the technical buyer, but they don't help the typical buyer I think. I find the vitriol aimed at Dennis quite surprising. I've seen several threads where variously Dennis, JBJ and others have received tremendous backlash. I don't see the need for it. If you have a problem with an individual, just ignore them and their posts. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 32 Registered: Apr-07 | "Steve, this POS will not heed a well spoken word." Excuse me? I'm sorry, but . . . uhh, what? Maybe you don't remember but, I'm the one that had a Technics amp quite a while ago. Came in here merely for speaker recommendations, got chewed out because I didn't have an amp that could handle a higher current by Art. Now I do but, what . . . now it doesn't matter? You confuse and perplex me Nuck, seriously. "Some makers volunteer their wares to a society, including a few you might not imagine. Like H/K. True power numbers. Or the Integra lineup. Meets every number, including the numbers that other ignore." Exactly, and these are the numbers I want to see. I KNOW H/K provides the numbers, you're the one that suggested getting a H/K when I asked for some upgrade suggestions AGES ago DUE to their honesty with *hint* specs *hint*. "The published specs are worse than useless, they lure suckers in every time. Woah, hold up . . . so now H/Ks specs are not useless and used as a way to . . . wah? Nuck, you're giving me a headache. Could be PLEASE make a concise argument or explain what it is you're actually rambling on about? "THD is a long ago proven farce." Yes, and that's not the only specification of an amplifier now is it? "A piece that fits the space is correct, the heavier the better." Want to know something amusing? Chinese PSU manufactures for PCs have started using thicker and heavier materials because the layman's "heavier is better". Traditionally it's still right a lot of the time. However, once again if you were comparing a T-Amp to a regular a/b it would make no sense. And of course, weight isn't the tell tale sign. I don't know of anyone who basis a complete component purchase strictly on weight, especially when it comes to power, whether it be for an audio amp (then again, I still don't know that many audio junkies I guess) to a PSU for a PC (this I DO know). |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10835 Registered: May-04 | . "Surely driving a 4ohm speaker with an amp that doesn't list a specification (hence, no guaruntee of support) would be a rather ill conceived decision." Telling you the amp can do something on a test bench is no guarantee it can do the same in the real world of speakers and music signals. There is no such thing as "a four Ohm speaker". You are talking as if this were a resistive load which doesn't exist in a speaker that works. Driving a load resistor with a sine wave in no way guarantees the same performance into a speaker if you wish to hear music. Impedance (the reactive portion of the load) alone is not the problem when it comes to driving a speaker. If the speaker is stable at four Ohms, it is not generally considered a difficult load. If the electrical phase angle is at zero to a positive (inductive) angle when the impedance is at a low four Ohms, the speaker is still a reasonably easy load for most amplifiers - discounting the real junk out there. There are speakers that are far less reactive than others but most people don't buy them and currently most designers on the mass market don't build them. Even if you have the guarantee of the amplifier manufacturer, limiting current (a 4-8 Ohm switch) to keep the amp from going up in smoke is not the way to get good sound quality. Amperage is what drives low impedance, reactive loads, if you limit the current, you limit the sound quality. How many of you understood what I just posted? If you don't know what you're looking at on a piece of paper, on paper specs don't mean anything. "On the same note, ones that go heavily in depth with listing things like the power of capacitors used ... " Sorry, Drew, caps don't have power. Caps store "power" or block "power". Maybe that's what you meant. But assuming the value of the cap is included in the "specs", what have you learned by reading that value? Wouldn't larger caps equate to a heavier amplifier? I've seen you twice make the case for a heavy chassis, Drew. That thinking is really reaching to discredit something that doesn't need discounting. No manufacturer makes a heavier than needed chassis. If the amp is better built, with heavier components in the power supply (which is what we mean when we say look at the weight), it will require a heavier chassis. If the designer is seriously interested in reducing resonance within the amplifier, which is strictly a high end design - not mass market - a heavy chassis will be included to support the other high quality parts inside. Otherwise, it would be to the manufacturer's disadvantage to make a heavy chassis to carry light components. The shipping costs of an amplifier weigh into the retail cost of an amplifier. If you don't think the mass market receiver manufacturer, where every few dollars can make your product less desirable and you're shipping thousands of amplifier over thousands of miles, wants the lowest cost no matter how it's achieved, then you don't understand the market and you should take an economics class when you get to college. Or, take the top plate off the average Yamaha receiver. Going from transformer coupled tubes, to transistors, to chips reduced the shipping weight of amplifiers. How much does your chip amp weight, Drew? 7.8 lbs? My Mac tubes weight 65 lbs. This cost of shipping, as much as other factors, made these products more desirable to the mass market manufacturers, not the sound quality the components and architecture of design produce. That lightweight Yamaha receiver has lower on paper THD than my tubes. What does that prove, Drew? I'm sorry if half sentences embarrass the writer. I use only your own words to remind you what you've posted and to add clarity to my response. Many times the rest of the sentence is even more embarrassing, so I leave it where I found it. But, if your own words are embarrassing, I would weigh them more carefully before committing them to print. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10836 Registered: May-04 | . "I find the vitriol aimed at Dennis quite surprising. I've seen several threads where variously Dennis, JBJ and others have received tremendous backlash. I don't see the need for it." You really haven't been paying attention, Frank. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10837 Registered: May-04 | . "Chinese PSU manufactures for PCs have started using thicker and heavier materials because the layman's "heavier is better". ... (this I DO know). How's that, Drew, a third of a paragraph? You are making a circular argument, Drew. Now you are arguing that even weight shouldn't matter. No one here, that I saw, said it did. I said weight should be considered so you know your shelf will support the component and you know not to ride your bicycle to pick it up. Pay attention, Drew. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 785 Registered: Apr-06 | "Exactly, and these are the numbers I want to see. I KNOW H/K provides the numbers, you're the one that suggested getting a H/K when I asked for some upgrade suggestions AGES ago DUE to their honesty with *hint* specs *hint*. " But the problem is that HK's numbers are only relevant within the HK line. If you try to compare HK's specified power output to Sony's specified power output, you'll get screwed. Moreover, the specs provided even by HK, NAD, Integra, et al are woefully inadequate to make any sort of purchasing decision. What does power output into a static 4 ohm load tell you about what an amplifier will do with a speaker that is far from being a static 4 ohm load? Nobody is saying to just take a measuring tape and a scale to your local audio store and use that as the sole means of buying a receiver or amplifier. All people are saying is to actually listen to the receiver and the speaker in combination to be utterly sure that that the receiver can handle the load. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 51 Registered: Jul-07 | Frank, sorry to say that you are now on Vigne's sh!t list comprised of other reasonable individuals. But your kindness is appreciated. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 35 Registered: Apr-07 | "How's that, Drew, a third of a paragraph?" That's not even what I was referring to. I was referring to your habbit of posting like: ". *insert incomplete/inadequate/possibly sarcastic statement here*" You know what, just forget it. I'm sick of this. I shouldn't come here to feel like *X* when all I've tried to do is learn or get help. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10843 Registered: May-04 | . Now see what you've done, wiley? You've lost your little buddy. Again. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10844 Registered: May-04 | . Drew - We've all tried to help you. But, honestly, you've been a bit of a brick wall. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7973 Registered: Dec-04 | Frank, yes indeed, a bigger and better power supply does need require a bigger and better heat sink. However, the last time I looked in my amp, the heat sink was a mass of aluminum, in an aluminum chassis, with a total weight of about 9 lbs. The sinks are light but large, and always Al. The power and heat produced by the double wound torroid makes the sink 5 lbs by nature, with a certain surface area necessary, but all in Al. I need to see a large sink in a high powered Class 'A' amp, but the sink itself is negligible to the mass of the power supply. So yes, the mass of the unit is a 'spec' to pay attention to, as you say. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7974 Registered: Dec-04 | Drew, if power numbers were all that mattered, then you could believe whomever you choose to. The fact that you believed me, when replacing the Technics with a H/K goes in two different directions. Firstly, I guided you to a maker that is honest about power ratings, and delivers solid budget power. Secondly, I likely stated back then that you would have to decide on the sound quality for yourself(unless I was drunk, in which all bets are off), so the decision would lie on your own ears. I still stand by the H/K rec for delivering useful power, however, these units may not be appropriate for all listeners. I hope you like the H/K(I liked mine), but a blanket statement I will only make as to a unit meeting rated power. Yamaha doesn't, Onkyo ain't close, and any unit claiming X7 channel power is likely blowing steam in the real world(any maker here). 7 channels @ whatever watts requires a massive sink, particularly in the Class A/B stuff. Run a 7 channel amp in 'A'(only the first few watts) and watch the thermometer go up. As opposed to a class 'A' amp, with the sinks and soaks to handle the heat, where things get interesting with difficult speakers. Yes, I have difficult speakers, very inefficient, with 400 wpc. to overcome this. |
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Bronze Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 64 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck hit that on the head. Yammy, Onkyo on average deliver only 60 - 70 percent of the watts they claim the unit will do. Units like the H/K , Rotel , NAD will deliver 15 percent more per speaker then the rating on their units. Example: This months Home Theater mag just reviewed the Rotel-1057 Receiver, rated at 75 watts per channel. They found at all 5 channels driven, at a 0.01% distortion it delivered 93.7 watts. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10846 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0503/sapanniversary.htm "In typical Italian fashion, when asking for specification for this article i was provided the following: 'The amplifier in your hand is the S.A.P. New Anniversary integrated amplifier. 1.- On the purpose we do not disclose many technical information. For instance we do not declare the output power (!). This is because we do not believe it is of technical relevance for the user. In any case the amplifier has high output current and the spec is that "it can drive the most of existing loudspeakers systems at sensible level of SPL without matching (or impedance) problem'." . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10847 Registered: May-04 | . "7 channels @ whatever watts requires a massive sink, particularly in the Class A/B stuff." Not exactly true. If the amp were using Darlington pair outputs or similar IC based outputs, the heatsinks can be nearly nonexistent. The amp still runs in class AB but the chip based amps are not going to be capable of high current delivery. However, good speaker matching, as with any other type of amplifier architecture, will give decent results if the rest of the amplifier is up to the task. Unfortunately, IC based outputs are too often the sign of lowered cost to the manufacturer (and lower shipping costs with little in the way of a power supply and no real heatsinks), so it is unlikely a IC based amp will sound very good no matter the speaker load. But it will measure well into a load resistor. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7980 Registered: Dec-04 | I was going with analog units, JV, but your comments are correct. Have a Coors light? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10849 Registered: May-04 | . So was I. Darlington pairs are for analog amplifiers. |
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Bronze Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 66 Registered: Jun-07 | mMmmMMmm Coors Light.lol. I can really feel the love in this forum. Lets all have a whiskey. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7986 Registered: Dec-04 | Hang on Nick, this might be good. JV, could you expand on the Darlington pairs? I thought they were the cuffs on Wayne's wrists, around the bumper of a State troopers Ford. The Boss |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10850 Registered: May-04 | . Darlington pairs = early form of IC based outputs. Found in Kenwood integrated amps in 1976. Class AB, all analog. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7996 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats it? Hell, I could have been home by now. Which output devices did they use? I am groping for a name, Island somebody used the same thing, I think. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 545 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, quit groping, unless you're with Helen. |
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Bronze Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 70 Registered: Jun-07 | Groping is good times. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8006 Registered: Dec-04 | Well this went to heck.I should have used 'grasping'. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10853 Registered: May-04 | . I have no idea what you want me to say, Nuck. You want me to tell you what company manufactured the outputs Kenwood used in 1976? Nawww, you don't expect me to remember that; do you? The point was IC outputs, run in class AB, don't require much in the way of heat sinks or power supply weight. That's one reason a 100 watt X7 HT receiver weighs less today than my thirty year old HK 40 watt X2 receiver. And the HT product sells for far less then the HK did way back then. With inflation the $500, 40 watt HK from 1976 would probably be, what, a $2k product today? Back on topic, more or less? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8026 Registered: Dec-04 | yup. Jimmy from the Bay of Plenty, is this helping at all? The specs are half fantasy, half fallacy. The real way to test is with your ears, into your load, at your desired listening level, and in your room. With your favorite music. Like, say, Mitch Rider and the Detroit Wheels. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2275 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, Just to come back to you, I think you may have misread my post. To clarify, the power supply does not need a heat sink. A weighty amp could indicate a nice stiff power supply since a linear power supply (typical of analogue amps) requires a bigger transformer. My point of mentioning the heatsink was, however, that a heatsink is a relatively weighty item which, when added to the weight of the power supply's transformer can add significantly (i.e. more than 10%) to the weight of an amplifier. So - a dastardly manufacturer (any of those about?) could slot in a heavier heatsink to hide the fact that there is a weaker power supply in the form of a smaller transformer (transformer = expensive, heatsink = cheap, weight for weight). More inefficient SS amplifiers (e.g. class A) sometimes need heavier heatsinks of course and I have seen cast iron variants in my time - a lot heavier. My other point: a typical switched mode power supply is relatively light for the same rated power as a linear power supply so you could be misled into thinking that an amplifier hasn't much of a supply when in fact the only reason for it being light could be that it has a switched mode power supply. Therefore, one needs to pay attention to the ratings as well as the weight in order to ensure that the numbers make some sort of sense. After all, for some years I used a stereo power amp rated at 350w/ch RMS into 8 ohms, 620w/ch RMS into 4 ohms, (750 into 2), but which only measured 420x140x355 and weighed just 40lbs - thanks to its switched mode power supply. With those specs, a linear supply would have made the thing weigh more like 120lbs and be a fair bit bigger... Jan, I have been paying at least some attention and most of the time I see you and Nuck just going for people in a most antagonistic way. Better to disregard those posters in my view than to escalate the situation through this abusive behaviour which gets nobody anywhere. Dennis, although my post mentioned you specifically I have noted that you're just as capable as Jan and Nuck of 'mixing it up'. just keep it cool and agree to differ. After all, this is hifi - nobody died! Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 55 Registered: Jul-07 | Frank, there are at leat two of us on this thread who understand the implications and limitations of Jan & Nuck's dimensions only advice. But you're wasting your time attempting to persuade them. Good luck. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 763 Registered: Nov-06 | We all know that specs give us a limited view into how a particular unit is going to perform, be it a receiver, amp, or speaker. Because tolerances may vary between company to company (compare Sony to Krell anyone?), specs are a starting point, and really nothing more. Just because on paper a particular unit looks like a decent performer does not actually make it so. Show me the benchmark that proves it to be. Even then, it doesn't mean that I will actually like the sonic presentation. I know there are several of you that have pointed this out. I have avoided getting in here because I feel this thread has turned into a flame war. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10890 Registered: May-04 | . There ya' go, Frank. Paying attention now? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2276 Registered: Sep-04 | Dennis, I'm not trying to persuade them of anything, just positing my opinion or the benefit of my understanding. Jan, yes I am, and this part of this thread is civil...  Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 57 Registered: Jul-07 | "I'm not trying to persuade them of anything, just positing my opinion or the benefit of my understanding."Frank Abela You're a smart man, realizing certain causes are hopeless. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2280 Registered: Sep-04 | No Dennis, I just know how much of a blockhead I can be... |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 546 Registered: Feb-05 | It seems I'm late again but I can elaborate on Darlington pairs. The Darlington pair gets it's name from Sidney Darlington of Bell labs who invented the circut configuration in the mid 1950's. The Darlington pair which is two FET's connected where the emitter of the transistor(Q1) is connected in series with the base of the second transistor,(Q2). The DP,if constructed with two seperate discrete transistors, is in no way a low current circuit, it is quite the opposite extreme, a very high current gain circuit with usual current gain-b(beta) of a thousand and can be as high a 10,000. A simple DP while still used for some low power applications such as touch sensitive switches is of little use today to audio amplifier designers since it is more prone to the Miller effect as a result it's high frequency response will tend to be more limited and switching will be more constrained in Q2. This can be aleviated by placing a 100-1KOhm resistor between the emitter of (Q2) and collector of Q1 but there are better designs used today. One better design is the Complementary Darlington a.k.a Sziklai pair. This configuration is sometimes used and is connected in the same manner but with Q1 and Q2 being devices of the same type-NPN instead of complementary type NPN-PNP which are difficult to match accurately. This also improves the switching speed of Q2. The technique oft employed today as it has for many decades is "cascoding". The top ss designs today use high current rated bipolar output FET's and as such they rule in the world of ss amplification. Prized for their switching speeds BP FET's represent the top shelf in ss amplifier design. This is a shining example of ss at it's finest and should serve as an excellent personal heater. http://www.parasound.com/halo/a51.php I can say with a fair amount of confidance since I've heard this amp that it would drive any speaker made, hell you could probably throw a pair of electrostatics at it and it would ask for a second helping. This amp in fact WILL operate at class A for a considerable portion of it's power bandwith,not just a mere 1 Watt. Just to come back to you, I think you may have misread my post. To clarify, the power supply does not need a heat sink. A weighty amp could indicate a nice stiff power supply since a linear power supply (typical of analogue amps) requires a bigger transformer. My point of mentioning the heatsink was, however, that a heatsink is a relatively weighty item which, when added to the weight of the power supply's transformer can add significantly (i.e. more than 10%) to the weight of an amplifier. So - a dastardly manufacturer (any of those about?) could slot in a heavier heatsink to hide the fact that there is a weaker power supply in the form of a smaller transformer (transformer = expensive, heatsink = cheap, weight for weight). More inefficient SS amplifiers (e.g. class A) sometimes need heavier heatsinks of course and I have seen cast iron variants in my time - a lot heavier. It's funny Frank how things change. extruded aluminum heatsinks are in vogue for beasts such as the Halo but my AVR335 uses long sheet aluminum plates for a heatsink to achieve a "chimney effect", Pioneer E also does the same with it's receiver offerings. In testing a chimney effect is a more efficent method of convective cooling than a thick aluminum heatsink which saturates with heat more quickly than it dissipates it. Therefore, one needs to pay attention to the ratings as well as the weight in order to ensure that the numbers make some sort of sense. After all, for some years I used a stereo power amp rated at 350w/ch RMS into 8 ohms, 620w/ch RMS into 4 ohms, (750 into 2), but which only measured 420x140x355 and weighed just 40lbs - thanks to its switched mode power supply. With those specs, a linear supply would have made the thing weigh more like 120lbs and be a fair bit bigger... I concur,look a maximum power consumption which will always be more than output and give you somewhat of a glimpse of the capability of an amp. Having just looked at a 70's "Twin-Powered" HK stereo receiver just last week locally, unfortunately no sale it's left channel cut out and came back on several times,it's ok i'll just go on Ebay and find a nice modded one in pristine condition,I do want one. I will say that although not lightweight it weighed a bit less than my HK 335. Where manufacturers cut corners today in the mass market is in build quality. I agree very much, you see designing a capable amplifier means designing to specs which are dictated by build quality.This is no where near the crapshoot a designing a good speaker. Where manufacturers of $200 recievers skimp today is obviously on amplifier build quality. Integrated OP amps in the amplifier circuits instead of OP amps built with discrete components and ic's in general in the amplifier signal path as well as small transformers and less isolation between input and output circuitry. Also low current rated devices and over zealous amplifier protection methods. Consistently HK for many years has refrained from incorporating ic's in amplification stages and used large scale high rated electronic parts. Also HK has avoided the amplifier overprotection paranoia that limits the performance and sonics of lesser designs. HK's insistent use of MOSFETS represents a good compromise between performance,similar in configuration to bipolar amps,less current and slower but quite livable and listenable.It's just somewhat of a shame that this maker has gone from American designed and built to American designed,Korean equipped and China assembled. To me the amplifier is the most important link in the audio chain since it's quality has both a measureable and hearable effect in a system. I go in peace, I expect civility in any responses given. ER |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10957 Registered: May-04 | . A bipolar FET?! You've thrown something new at me, ER. I thought bipolars and FET's were eternally incompatible in one device. http://www.answers.com/topic/fet?cat=health Tell me more as I'm not finding anything on line to explain this device. I do have a 40 watt dual powered HK receiver from the mid 1970's and a dual powered HK Citation Twelve Deluxe that I'm not using. I believe the Citation was a Stu Hegeman design and Nelson Pass did a few modifications to the basic design, offering at one time a MOSFET "upgrade" to the outputs. The HK receivers were the favorites of any shop that carried the line and the 60 watt Citation twelve, unlike the bigger Citation 16(B), was the first solid state Citation power amp and had a sound more akin to the older Citation tube series amps which made the MOSFET mod either very strange or completely logical. Citation was marketed as the poor man's McIntosh. If you're interested in one of these amps, let me know. They have both been sitting for a few years. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8131 Registered: Dec-04 | Ahh, nothing like clearing out the old stock. 'Specially if someone really appreciates it. I have been a lucky recipient, it's fun! |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 547 Registered: Feb-05 | My apology Jan I should have said BJT and FET's, it was very late even for me- I usually don't leave work to around 12-1 a.m.. Anyway like I said before I'm still contemplating a two channel music only system. I would like to try the Dynaco 70 but most of them go for $500 or more and I'm looking to spend about $200-$350 for an amp- an HK twin powered is well within this range actually much less around $75-100 for one in good shape and about $100-150 for a modded one. Also I'm looking at the NAD C320 which is $299 from Saturday Audio. Are you sitting down for this, I might also purchase a turntable-LOL! I recently saw a Sumiko entry model for $300, what's your take on them? Anyway you can pm me with the model of the Citation,a brief discription and what you want($) for it. Thanks a bunch! ER |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 518 Registered: Apr-06 | This fight is still going? |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 548 Registered: Feb-05 | It wasn't a fight to begin with Kyle just an exchange of info. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8162 Registered: Dec-04 | as usual. Read and learn. Ask and learn. Submit and learn. If a day goes by when I could not learn, I didn't pay attention enough. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 869 Registered: Nov-06 | with some people... they never learn. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 188 Registered: Jan-07 | Specs are an advisory, not the Bible. It is theoretically possible to make a complete spec sheet, including every known measureable but what's the point? Such a callout for a basic amp would take up 30 pages and be mostly meaningless to anyone except a guaranteed lunatic. Eventually you gotta plug it in and listen. |
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