I'm researching a new system and one of my interests was the Rega Mira 3 along with the Apollo cdp. I was able to listen to them via a variety of speakers but not any Rega loudspeakers and was just wondering if any one is familiar with any of their speakers.
It was my hopes to get a 3-way speaker and the only one Rega makes, that I can afford, is the R5. If not the R5 can anyone make any other recommendations. They will be used in a large room and I prefer a floorstanding 3-way.
Hi guys, won't make long winded comments tonight as it has been a long work week which today included training and several hrs of travel. I know it won't suffice to say, but I'll say it anyway...I love my system. It's the most musically communicative I've owned. It may not be sayin' much but this system is the most fun I've owned since my legendary (in my mind and heart) Paradigm/Rotel setups. I've owned a lot of good gear but this system speaks to me like no other has.
The R5's ain't everybody's cup-o-tea. Frank doesn't like them at all, but that's ok. I know another dealer who deals in nothing but high end and only carries 3 speaker brands, Living Voice, Sonist, and Rega....why because in their words the Rega speakers (they only carry the R1, R3, and R5) play music like nothing else they've listened to at that price....period.
Yup, I don't like 'em - too boxy for my liking. But, that's just my opinion and lots of people do like them, so there you go. You need to hear them for yourself. So long as you hear them in a demo room, in peace and quiet you should be able to decide if you like them or not. Most Rega dealers have these facilities.
Mr. T., I was able to listen to the Rega gear via the following speakers: Epos, M22 & M15.2 Spendor, S5e Opera, Prima PSB, Image T55 Triangle, Antal ESW Focal-JMlab, Chorus 726V & Cobalt 816V
All had their strengths but my preference was the Epos M22 and Triangle Antal ESW. Regardless of the speakers I am sold on the Rega gear...just wish I had the extra money to buy the tuner.
Art: Thanks for your input...especially after such a long day. The dealer said he plans on getting Rega speakers for demo purposes. Hopefully he does so soon, and gets the R5s...I'd love to hear the entire Rega set-up.
"The R5's ain't everybody's cup-o-tea."...good point Art and as we all know, speakers aren't something one buys sight unheard. But it is still good to hear that you rate them highly.
Music interests, being what they are, make speaker choice so personal. Mine ranges from big band, swing, vocals to rock-a-billy, acoustic, western, rock and new age. finding a speaker that accomodates all has been tough. The best all-around speakr I've heard so far has been the B&W CM7...which I was able to hear via both Creek and Music Hall. If only I could hear the Rega and B&W together. Sigh.
I also highly recommend van den Hul interconnects and speaker cable for Rega gear. Sounds fabulous! Like you Mike I have quite varied musical interests and yep it's difficult to find systems that communicate all of my music equally well. I feel that my present one does.
It was just another speaker. The mids just didn't stand out enough, for me. It looked like the mid and bass speaker element were the same...on different sides of the cross-over, I guess. I had heard it elsewhere in a home theatre set-up and it (a 5 speaker system)sounded great, but in the audio arrangement I had it just wasn't outstanding.
Thanks, Art, for the interconnect & speaker cable advice. The last time I purchased any audio gear (over 20 years ago) wire was wire. Specialty cable, to my knowledge, was still in its' infancy and not seriously considered. How time has changed.
Like I stated above, I hope my retailer gets the R5's in soon so as to hear all the Rega items together.
The T55 is an excellent speaker. I've lived with it for about 3 years now. Not that I've heard them together, but in a Rega system the T55 would probably sound somewhat dull. Rega's strengths are pace, rythym, and timing; part of the flat earth approach. PSB is a smoother, slower, and somewhat laid back approach; more of a round earth philosophy. Neither is wrong, per se. But they definately don't do each other any favors. There's just no synergy between them. If you want to hear PSBs at their best, pair them up with NAD electronics or something similar.
As far as the bass drivers, you hit the nail on the head Mike. The mid and bass drivers are identicle. They're crossed over as a 2 1/2 way design. The top driver carries mids and upper bass, and the bottom driver carries bass. Singers can sound like they're a couple inches in front of drum sets.
The main reason why I'm buying a new system is because my current NAD/PSB system doesn't have that PRAT quality that rock music needs to really convey its message. Not that that quality only benefits rock music though.
I have read numerous positive opinions on the T55 but, as you point out, the two just aren't a good match. As a matter of fact, this dealer also carries NAD and, before even listening to the T55 and Mira combination, he told me that the two (PNS & NAD) would be a better combo. Guess I should listen to the experts.
Thanks, Art, for the refresher course...how could I forget?
My local Rega retailer finally got the Rega R3 and R7 speakers. Even though he hadn't had time to break them in he allowed me to listen to the both. Even out of the box they sounded good and the retailer assured me that after they get burned in they'll sound better. I'll be going back for a second listen. The R7 is out of my price range but if the R3 is outstanding I'll consider ordering thr R5 unheard - the dealer has heard them and assures me if I like the R3 I'll like the R5. (He has heard the R5 and I trust his judgement.)
I'll keep you posted as to how things sound on the second listen.
Mike, just curious as to why the dealer carries the 3 and 7, but not the popular 5? If he is carrying the line, it seems that he should bring in the 5's for you?
Mike, I could sense the shrug with "What's a guy to do?". If you trust the opinions of others, and see no big red lights, then perhaps go through with it. A dealer demo is not the be all and end all, beacause it is not your room and kit.
If you must buy to try, I can think of worse products.
Art: I suspected as much...beings the components in each are very close. (Read on.)
Nuck: This dealer is one, of only two, audiophile shops (here in Baltimore, Maryland). I've been dealing with him for many years and he is the kind of guy who would rather loose the sale than sell a customer the wrong thing. BTW; I spoke with him yesterday, expressing my concerns about purchasing an unheard speaker. He is so confident in the Rega products that he will order it for me, to demo, and if I don't like it I don't have to buy it...he knows someone else will purchase it. What a dealer!!! What more could I ask?
Art, once I get my Rega system together I let you know how it all turned out.
Mike, that's the right dealer. Anyone who values $ over a good dealer relationship is blowing smoke. Sure CC or BB sells junk for pennies, this is the payoff, and that is where I was headed.
I think you will enjoy the sound, I currently use a Saturn, Cursa, 2 x exon into the R3's. The 5's are very like the 3 with a touch deeper bass. In my room the 3 blended a little better. But its a typical old English house, with foot thick brick walls, and 11' ceilings. I am hoping to home dem some R7's soon, as I think the change from ported to transmission line will enable me to have that extra bass octave without the ensuing room problems. The 3's and 5's share the same voicing, agility, and ability to convey the emotion in the music. The current Rega speakers to my mind convey the spirit of the company, play the music, get the rythem, flow, and emotion of that right and the hi fi takes care of itself.
Yes, this dealer is exceptional. Even though I haven't made any major purchases in a number of years I return periodicaly just to check out what is new and buy minor items. I also refer numerous people to him, several of whom have purchased entire systems others individual items.
After reading your post, Colin, I began rethinking what it is I plan on buying. The Saturn and Exon are out of my price range but the Cursa and Maia, along with the Apollo and R5s, may be possible. The dealer will give me a "package deal" - the more I spend the more he'll reduce the total cost. I'll be going back this weekend to place my order. As for electronics, he only has the Apollo and Mira for demo but I have no doubt that the Cursa and Maia will sound exceptional.
Thank you, everyone, for your input...it certainly made my final decision easier. I'll be sure to let you know what system I finally order
I was kicking this idea around for possibly down the road. Sorry if I'm rambling here, but...
Does anyone know how the following would sound - Rega Mira 3 and Maia amp used in a bi-amp configuration with an Apollo and R5's?
Maybe this will sound better than a Cursa and Maia in the same system for about the same cost? Or is the Cursa pre-amp that much better than the one in the Mira? I think the Mira's pre-amp section is passive, but I'm not sure.
Just some food for though. Sorry to confuse the issue any further.
Beings the Cursa is strickly a pre-amp, and cost the same as the Mira 3, I would think that there is more to its' (the Cursa) design (parts & engineering). That being the case logic tells me that the Cursa is the better pre-amp.
I have read of others who have purchased the Mira and later on obtained a Maia or Exon and were most pleased with the results.
I don't doubt for a second that the Cursa is a better pre-amp that the one in the Mira. Just like I don't doubt that the amp section of the Maia is better than the Mira. I was just wondering which would sound better in an equal system - Cursa/Maia or Mira 3 and Maia bi-amped. I'm sure there would be trade-offs both ways.
I think you're confusing what I'm getting at Mike.
I was thinking bi-amping the Rega R5s. The R5 has two sets of binding posts on the back for this purpose. You'd have to disconnect whatever jumper is used between them. The Mira's output would go to the highs, and the Maia's output would go to the lows.
In theory this should give better dynamics, control over bass, and a handful of other benefits.
But whats on paper and whats real can be different things.
I can not comment on the mira/maia as I did not try it, I started with a Brio, then went cursa/maia, then cursa exons. At the initial dem i tried Brio-then Mira, then cursa/maia, and decided that it was the pre-power I wanted. As i did not have the spare cash at the time, i decided that as the Brio's sins were only one's of ommision, I would take the Brio, and save for the Cursa/Maia. The cursa has a much lower noise floor than the mira, and the Maia has a lot more grip and control than the Mira/ I assume its having the two boxes and two power suppliers. I would have been more than happy to stay with the cursa/maia, but found the exons used (ex dem) at a price I could not turn down.
The biggest difference of all, either in the dem room, or at home, was plugging in the Exons. I would take the Cursa/Maia over the Mira/Maia just for the reduced noise floor to be fair if it is financially viable for you.
I have tried a few I/C's and have stayed with the Chord Cobra's, not the most expensive I have used, (by a long way) but there is to me a real synergy with the Rega sound, I use Van Damme Studio grade speaker cable, the 4mm square stuff.
Try and hear the options at your dealer, most dealers will have tried it anyway.
Stu: Thanks for the clarification...I was thinking bi-wiring not bi-amping. (I need to stop speed-reading.)
Colin: Good point, regarding the noise floor. If the price were right I, too, would purchase the Exons. Thanks for the comments regarding I/C's and speaker cable.
One of the reasons I bought the Rega gear is because it's a cost conscious alternative to Naim. Once you start spending the bigger bucks I would swing my interest to Naim.
There aren't any Naim dealers in my neighborhood so I'm not familiar with the products. I have heard various Creek products. The Classic and Destiny models are impressive but costly.
I had heard the Creek 5350 amp along with a Music Hall 25.2 CD player. They sounded good and together cost about the same as the Apollo and Mira. The only advantages to the Creek was that it could drive two sets of speakers and had a few more watts. I decided on the Rega set-up so as to have complimentary devices.
I do not think Bi wire is worth the hassle (other's doubtless do) and would say go for a decent quality one that meets your needs. (I don't mean the most expensive you can afford either)
Art wrote Rega is a cost conscious alternative to Naim. Sorry I do not agree, my dealer stocks both, and did consider the 5's for cd and integrated when I started looking, and again when I moved to the Cursa Maia.(Naim pre power) For whatever reason I prefer the Rega sound to the Naim. I think the Naim sound becomes a bit tiresome after a while.
Personally if I was going to spend Bigger (much) bucks on a Hi-Fi then I would consider Naim again, but would add Linn, Ayre and accuphase into the mix. I personally feel that with the exception of the speakers, I would have to spend stupid amounts of money to better what I currently have. I mean really better, rather than change the presentation around a bit.
I have never bi-wired/amped before...never had speakers with multiple terminals. Before purchasing decent cable, to do so, I would try it using heavy gauge zip cord.
Beings I'm getting older my hearing isn't quite what it use to be. During my search, for a new system, I've listened to amp/cd combos that cost 2 and 3 times the Apollo/Mira...but the difference in sound wasn't worth the cost. Speakers, as you point out Colin, were a different story. Maybe I should listen to a $100K sytem and see if I can hear any improvement.
Colin I was stating how I feel relative to my Rega purchase...it wasn't up for agreement or disagreement. As we all know audio preference is highly personal as it should be.
I was a bit puzzled by the fact that you said that Naim was a bit tiresome after awhile and then later you stated that if you were spending more money you would consider Naim...which kind of goes along with my statement that you disagreed with. Anyway, not trying to start something just a bit curious.
Sorry, I was not trying to be argumentative, it's just that rega is a cheap naim alternative rankles at times, and I don't see it that way, I could certainly have had a naim system for around the same, or less cost that what I currently use.
If I was spending silly money on a HiFi then I would try some of the more esoteric Naim Kit to see if is any different overall to the more budget offerings is all. My local, friendly, and very good dealer stocks Naim, Linn, Rega, Accuphase, levinson, spectral etc, and I would work my way through whatever fell within budget.
"I think the Naim sound becomes a bit tiresome after a while."
Naim's presentation isn't for everyone. That being said, and reading some more of your posts Colin, I'm assuming that you've only heard Naim's entry and lower level stuff. While I really like the 5 series (Nait 5i, CD5i), I think they can get a little edgy in the wrong room with complex music. A little edgy to one by be over the edge to others.
For example, the Mira 3/Apollo sounds a little smoother than the Nait 5i/CD5i to my ears. The Cursa/Maia combo sounds a little smoother than the NAC 122x/NAP 150x. Again, to my ears. The next step up Naim's ladder sounds significantly smoother.
Naim's next step up is a pretty big jump up in terms of performance (and price). It looses the edge, and improves on everything the the lower end gear does.
Also, some people like the Nait 5i better than the entry level seperates because the Nait has this edge to it. A lot of people on the Naim forum "down-graded" to the Nait 5i from Naim seperates.
As a Rega/Naim dealer, I can say that a lot of our customers upgrade to Naim after experiencing Rega for some time. However, I have had several customers who love the Rega sound and can't get on with the fuller Naim sound. They typically take the system to the top Rega offering before trying other brands. Rega is actually quite a unique presentation. In my opinion, it's more incisive than Naim and in fact I'd say that of the two it's the Rega which is the edgier! The Naim is usually smoother and more rounded.
Those customers who love their Rega and don't get on with Naim either stay with their system and remain content or look to other alternatives such as Avi, or open up their Rega systems with truly exorbitantly priced cables such as Chord Signature or Indigo, although the latter seems like an extraordinary way to go - even though it is highly effective. So no - Rega is not a poor man's Naim as such, although it is often portrayed like that because the presentation is relatively similar. And watch this space. The story goes that Rega are looking to do more. They'll take there time as usual, but what they come out with will be interesting.
Very interesting Frank. When I was referring to Naim being edgier, I was referring to Mira 3/Apollo vs Nait 5i/CD5i. The next step up and beyond in the Naim ladder gets smoother and smoother.
Maybe it was my dealer's room? Their demo room is pretty live sounding. They're remodeling as we speak, so maybe next time I'm in I'll see if this changes anything.
Speaking of Rega gear, has anyone compared the Rega Fono phono pre-amp to the built in phono section of the Mira 3? Worth the additional cost if I can spare a line level input?
From my 'trial' against the MM stage in the cursa, the standalone is pretty much the same sound. It may have one or two more hi-fi attributes, probably because of having its own power feed, rather than sharing with the pre. (which may be more evident in the Mira) I could not justify the shelf space, and cost against the very minor changes. (Changes rather than real improvements) There is a new Rega Phono stage in development, but it will I would think be costly, as it appears to offer stacks of adjustment, and is built in one of the standard Rega cases.
I have also tried a Cambridge 640 phono stage, which is really surprisingly good, especially considering the price, and the Graham Slee Gram Amp 2se, but have reverted to the standard Rega built in unit.
Thanks Colin. I currently have the NAD PP2 running through a NAD 320BEE. While the PP2 isn't bad, not's not very good IMO either. Its a little lack luster to my ears.
I plan on buying a Mira 3 in a few months, and am getting kind of antsy. If the Fono was an improvement over the built in phono section in the Mira, I would pick one up now. Maybe if I don't have anything better to do next weekend, I'll stop by my dealer's and have a listen. Saturday there is great. They basically have it open to pedestrian traffic, and surprisingly have a good amount of time to sit down with people and chat. The overwhelming majority of their business is none on weekdays through appointments. I feel like I'd be wasting their time making an appointment for this.
The Fono is better than the phono section in the Mira but it depends on what table and cartridge you use whether you will need it. As a well regarded review of the Mira 3 states the phono section on the Mira 3 allows you to get the most from the P3 and most cartidges up to around $500. Since I will not exceed that in the near future I find the phono section on Mira 3 to be quite adequate. If you are buying a new VPI or Nottingham deck in the near future you may consider something more.
I agree with Colin - the Fono is not enough of a difference to waste your money over the Mira, and that's with an expensive (i.e. more money than the Fono) interconnect. Don't bother, I say, calm down and keep saving.
"The 10x5 is a MC cart. Will the Mira have enough gain?
Will the 10x5 work well with my 1Xpression?"
Yes, it's a high output MC and will be just fine with your setup. The Elys 2 works very nicely with my P3 but I will let someone who has experience with Rega cartridges on Project arms answer that. BTW I'm considerin the 10x5 myself...not until summer at least.
Well guys, I finally got my new Rega equipment this past weekend. I got the Apollo, Mira 3 and R5 speakers. Even with getting a discount I still couldn't afford the Cursa/Maia set-up, but that's ok for I'm thrilled with the Mira 3.
I'm glad to read the recent posts regarding phono. Currently I have an old Denon turntable and want to replace the cartridge. The Dynavector and Denon cartridges that have been mentioned are a bit pricey for me...any recommendations for a less expensive one. I eventually want to upgrade the turntable so I want a cart that is decent. Thanks.
The 10x5 is a high output MC, so it has similar output to an MM. Works well into a Mira. no idea about the 1Xpression, sorry, but I used to use it with excellent results on the P3. used to, because I'm waiting for the new P3...
Never tried Rega cartridges on a ProJect - sounds like blasphemy. proJect and ortofon seem to go hand in hand a lot. I've heard the new low output Salsa which is a very nice cartridge indeed. I'd probably take the 10x5 over it, but it is good nonetheless. I'm not a fan of Rega's cartridges which I find noisy, bandwidth-limited and a bit harsh. I have also played with the Apheta - now there's a quirky cartridge! At times it's absolutely amazing and at times it's frustratingly uncommunicative. Weird huh?
Mike, you could try the new Goldring replacement to the 1000 series, can't remember what it's called but it's a good cartridge. Also have a look at the Grado Prestige Gold - this is a fabulous cartridge in my opinion. So when are you getting yourself a Rega P3?
Frank, thanks for the cartidge suggestions. Currently I have an Ortofon and it sounded fine with my old system but with the Rega system I can really tell a difference.
As for the Goldring and Grado...would they be a good match for the P3? I'm starting my search for turntables now and I figure in another 5 or 6 months I'll be ready to purchase a new one so my thought is to buy a cartridge, now, that will work well with a new turntable.
Yes, they do work well in the Rega decks. incidentally, I have only heard the top cartridge in Goldring's new 1000 range - it's the replacement for the 1042 which was really quite nasty in the treble. The new model is far better than that old nail.
The cost of the P3, plus a decent cartridge, will be stretching my budget. Any suggestions for a decent tt/cartridge combination that cost less. Thanks.
The P2's ok, but the P3 is the boy and it's just in the process of being updated (which happens every few years). The differences include chnages to the arm (now the RB301 with 3-point mounting, same as their RB700 and RB1000 arms, new wiring closer to that in the P700), plinth modifications, new motor and power supply options. It's allegedly going to be slightly more expensive (about $100), and if recent developments in their decks are anything to go by, it's going to be one hell of a deck. It's going to be released in the next few weeks. It also means that any dealer with P3s in stock will be looking to sell them quickly in order to make way for the new model - possible deals?
I still don't rate their cartridges.
Just thought you should be aware of all the facts...
Food for thought...I'll keep an eye open for some "deals". Thanks for the heads-up, Frank.
I have a small vinyl collection and don't play the records on a regular basis so spending a great deal of money on a new tt and cartridge isn't logical...to me. But I still would like to purchase decent equipment.
Well, Nuck, I can appreciate the point you're making. Over the weekend I went to my dealer and listened to the turntables he had on display. One of them was a P3, the others were different brands that were 2 and 3 times the P3 price. All the tt's sounded good but I couldn't hear any difference between any of them. (Probably my hearing.) Would the P3 sound different than the P2...to me, probably not. I'd rather invest the difference in price in a better cartridge.
As for adding to my vinyl collection...I do, on occassion, find things to add to my collection but I only purchase vinyl releases that are most impressive...to me.
The P2 and P3 do sound different, I think mainly because of the platter material. If the P2 plus a aftermarket acrylic platter is in budget that may be worth trying.
I was wondering what the P2 platter is made of; i.e., metal, a composite material...I read, somewhere that it is a composite resin material. Other TT's in the P2 price range have machined metal or acrylic platters.
Thanks for the information, Colin...I wasn't aware that "aftermarket" platters were available. If you could direct me as to where these platters can be purchased I'd be grateful.
I believe the platter is made of MDF. In the old days the platter used to be made of glass (it was thinner on the P2 than the P3). The MDF platter is a new innovation. The P3 and P5 use glass and the P7 and P9 use ceramic. every material has its own advantages and disadvantages, but the P2 remains a Rega, and they have been making excellent decks for quite some time now.
Frank, you are correct. The May 2007 issue of Stereophile reviews the P2 and makes note that the platter is MDF. This doesn't impress me in the least...a platter made of sawdust and glue(?).
Maybe they use MDF because it doesn't resonate or is lighter, etc., etc. What concerns me about MDF is that after time and exposure to humidity it begins to deteriorate.
Being a "new innovation", though, I'm sure they have properly tested the platter. They are the experts and know what they're doing.
My sons has a 2 with MDF platter, very quickly changed for my old spare glass one. Acrylic platters- in the UK search e-bay for SRM tech, in the USA try IronAudio.com
I get where you're coming from. I believe the main reason for choosing glass originally was that glass is a material with high specific density making it nicely hefty while fitting into the desired shape easily. That said, glass has resonant properties which make it less attractive since it transmits energy along it quite easily.
One of the jobs of any deck is to disperse energy away from the stylus and away from the main bearing. Many decks use very heavy platters to act as an energy sink. Some use acrylic so the platter can't store it (although I wonder where it goes in this case). MDF has been the main material used in speakers exactly for this reason - it has little character of its own, and very low resonance properties. In some ways, it's an ideal material to use therefore.
That said, I'm sure it's cheaper to make than a glass platter...
Colin: I checked out IronAudio.com...the acrylic platter is impressive. Did you notice a signifcant difference in sound when you changed the platter from MDF to glass?
Frank: I spoke before thinking...didn't give thought to the fact that speaker casings are also made of MDF. No, I have never seen a speaker case deteriorate as a result of humidity - another senseless thought. I recall now that another reason MDF is used for speakers is the fact that the density is consistant...which is essential to speaker acoustics (i.e., two like speakers sounding the same).
Reasonance dispersion being an issue, an MDF platter does make sense. Live and learn.
Yes the acrylic platter made a very noticeable difference, and I would say improvement to my P25. The Rega sound is still there, but with a bit more 'air' and space around instruments and voices.
I have a Rega Mira 3 and a P7 with an Exact. I wasn't happy with the internal phono stage, and borrowed a Rega Fono from my dealer for a week. There is a huge improvement over the Mira's Fono stage. Its quieter, more detailed, bigger, better instrument separation and its seems better drive as well. I use it with a Rega Couple, which i use all around and like better than even a Chord Chorus that I have tried. Rega advised my friend that the Cursa's internal phono stage is better than the Fono, and advised me the other way around saying the separate power supply gives it some advantages.
Oops, posted before i was finished. Does anyone know if the Cursa 3's optional internal MM phono stage is better than the Fono? I am about to order a Cursa and would love to get rid of a box, ie the Fono, and the need to buy another interconnect. Also, i used to have a P3 with a dynavector 10X5 and i agree it is an excellent combination. It's a really good cartridge. I will probably go back to one when my Exact wears out.
Art, any idea if the internal Cursa 3 phonostage is as good as or better than the Fono? The Canadian distributor, Plurison, says the Fono has the same board as the phono stage in the Brio, and that the Mira and Cursa have a better board. Rega told me the Mira and Brio share the same phono stage, that the Cursa is much better, and that the Fono is better again. Simon at Rega told my friend the opposite. The two dealers i use also have differen't info, although neither are big rega phonostage or cartridge fans. Rega's site makes no mention if any of their phono stages are better than others, and no longer have a tech email to ask questions. Does anyone know anything about these?
My 2 Rega dealers are Rega cartrtidge and phono stage fans especially with other Rega gear. I won't have a chance to talk with them until at least the weekend. I would guess that what you were told is accurate and that your friend is not remembering correctly. Frank may know but again he is not a fan of Rega cartridges...so I don't know.
I have compared a phono (MM) against the inbuilt stage (mm) in the Cursa. Not with a Rega cart but with a Denon DL110. (I am a rega fan in general but not of their carts). There was to my ears very little difference in the two. So little that I decided the extra box was not worth the shelf space. I rightly or wrongly put this down to the fact the the Cursa power supply has a much easier time of it than a integrated, and can cope with the requirements of the phono stage easily. I seem to remember my Rega dealer telling me that the Cursa stage and the phono are the same anyway.
To complicate matters even more, Rega is building a new higher end phono stage. I've seen a picture somewhere, but no mention of it on Rega's site. A few people have discussed it on Naim's forum. You may want to poke around there.
Its a full size component, built into their stock cases like their CD players and amps. It also has some adjustment knobs on the front. I believe its being made so that people with their new Apheta cartridge can get a worthy Rega phono stage.
If you're looking for a better phono stage than you've got now, you may want to look into the Dynavector stage. I heard it once in a P7/10x5/Cursa/Maia system and the system sounded phenominal. The Dynavector phono stage wasn't taken out and swaped with something else, so I really could definitively tell exactly what was doing what, but it sounded great none the less.
The Dynavector phono stage has a strong following. Just as strong, and maybe even stronger than their cartridges. In the Naim forum a lot of people use them with Naim systems and Linn and Rega turntables.
Shawn - I'm no fan of the Fono. Every time I've tried it I thought it was OK but no great shakes, not much better than a ProJect PhonoBox but twice the price. Others will disagree.
I haven't compared the Fono to the built-in phono stages in the amps. My overall impression of these is that the built-in phono stages offer great value since they're good quality, part of the amp at a good price and save on space. I'd be surprised if there was a big difference with the Fono.
Stu suggests the P75. This has just been upgraded to the P75 MkII so it's possible you may find a good deal on the original. If so, consider it seriously - this is one good phono stage! The MkII is meant to be a lot better but that doesn't make the original a dog, and it is heaploads better than a Fono.
The other little box I rate highly (more than the P75 even) is the Tom Evans Microgroove and its bigger brothers. The Microgroove gets a heck of a lot right for less than a P75. Your problem will be finding a dealer...!
Another highly regarded phono stage for sensible money is the Heed Audio Questar and Quasar. I haven't heard them myself but I can't hear everything.
Graham Slee gets a lot of good press too, but I've heard the lower end stuff and I am not a fan.
Thanks for the replies. I have used a Graham Slee Era Gold 5 with the Dynavector 10X5 and it was great. When i replaced the 10X5 (after an unfortunate accident) with the Rega Exact, the match wasn't so good. The Exact sounds noisy, and shrill with the Slee. I borrowed the Fono and it works well with the Exact. Noise is gone, thicker fuller sound. Bigger bass. Fast. Guitar sounds great. But it definateley seems like a lot of information is gone, maybe being filtered out. The sound is closed in, boxy without air. I'm pretty unimpressed with the Exact. I think it makes the difference between my P7 and old P3 hardly noticeable. The better non-Rega phono stages I have tried seem to magnify the weaknesses of the Exact. I'll live with it until I can afford to replace it, or it has an unfortunate accident!
Frank, you mentioned some clients using expensive cables with Rega to open up the sound. Would a Chord Signature to replace a Rega Couple between my Planet 2000 and Mira 3 be a worthwhile upgrade. A local dealer is selling his demo for $600 Canadian. Or would upgrading from the Planet to an Apollo be more rewarding?
Could you do some blind testing with the Chord Signatures vs your existing cables to see if you can really notice a difference?
Personally I think $600 is an awful lot of money to spend on cables, let alone a single pair of cables, when you're dealing with a $1000 amp and CD player.
But how? I suppose I have a hard time believing that those extra hundreds of dollars realistically make any difference because there doesn't seem to be any sort of understanding as to why they are better than cheaper alternatives. I think Blue Jeans Cable has the right philosophy.
My Apollo just arrived and my dealer let me borrow Chord Chrysalis and Silver Siren interconnects to try out. Obviously these aren't nearly $600, but I will compare them to my Blue Jeans interconnects and see if I notice any differences.
Josh, maximizing the rca interconects is like maximizing a schnauser, as compared to a Great Dane with balanced connections. But one must make do with the options available.
Really? If balanced interconnects made that big of a difference, why don't they show up on cheaper players and amplifiers? Obviously they must cost more to include in equipment, but are they really that expensive such as to outweigh these "great dane" performance benefits? I'd think manufacturers would opt to include balanced connections in favor of other features if this were the case.
One thing I notice just from looking at both sets of Chord interconnects is that the pins in the RCA connectors are not centered, and are a bit crooked. I can see them becoming bent, but they should be centered in the plug, should they not?
Balanced connections are very much more expensive to implement in the electronics so this is why you don't seem them very often, especially in the lower end stuff where better gains can be made elsewhere.
The pins in the RCA connectors should be central. I think you'll find that the Chrysalis is a pacey cable with limited frequency extremes. The Silver Siren has far better bandwidth and resolution than the Chrysalis but can be a touch bright. Chrysalis has just been replaced by the Crimson.
Shawn,
I'm no fan of the Couple. I find it mechanical and restrained. I would put up with Silver Siren's touch of brightness over Couple for similar money any day. I have only used Signature occasionally in Rega systems. It's an excellent match and it does open things out. However, that's a hell of an investment and I have a feeling upgrading to an Apollo would be the more musical solution (the Apollo is a big step up from the Planet 2000).
As you've probably read elsewhere I am not a fan of Rega cartridges. The Exact is the best of a bad bunch in my view. I have heard it with the P75 in both DrT mode and with standard loading and of course this just acts as an open window showing off the failings of the cartridge. The Fono, with its reduced treble and bass, lets the best part of the Exact (its midrange) take centre stage.
For similar money, I'd definitely choose the Ortofon Salsa over it. For a bit more money I'd take the 10x5 over it. Would I take a Salsa over a 10x5? No. The Salsa is too closed in the treble, even if it boogies better than the 10x5 (which is no mean boogie-er itself).
Yes, Shawn, why did you buy the Exact??? (Sorry, couldn't help myself...)
I beg to differ. I find the vdh cables quite restrained and dry in their presentation. There's no involvement. More accurate perhaps but not particularly engaging...interested in your thoughts on this.
Interesting, I will play around with the various interconnects this weekend to see if I notice any difference. It won't be the best time to play with cables, as everything will still be breaking in, but should be interesting nonetheless.
Keep an open mind. I didn't believe much in cables until I tried a copule in my home with my gear and my music. In a shop with unknown equipment and music probably won't reveal any valid differences.
If you've got different interconnects to play with now, I'd give them a go. If not, I'd wait until your stuff has fully burned in and you are familiar enough with the stuff to easily notice even subtle differences.
I tried a Chord Chameleon in place of my Rega Couple. I tried it between my Planet 2000 and Mira 3, and I tried it between my Fono and Mira 3. I found it more open sounding and airy, but drums sounded like they were being hit with paintbrushes not sticks. The bass shrank, and the driving fast sound of my Rega system seemed a little boring in comparison to the Couple. It seemed to shift everything up towards treble. Neil Young's guitar lost its full woody thick sound and voices sound thinner and more recessed . There sounds like less overall attack, more laid back sounding. I prefer the Couple by a large margin. Yes the Chord Chameleon had time to break in and was installed correctly. Any idea if a better cable such as the Signature would give the openness but retain the drive and fullness, or is the Couple as good as it gets for me in an all Rega set-up? Is there synergy in Rega cables with Rega gear, or is the Chord cable sound possibly just not my taste. I also tried Qed quinex 3, which was also more open but thin and metallic compared to the Couple.
As you might expect Frank I completely disagree about the van den Hul cables. It has become obvious that you like a little hotter sound than I do. Just a matter of preference.
I find the Chord stuff a bit too edgy. The details come through warts and all and for me that ain't good. When I switched between the My vdH Orchid and Chord Chorus the Orchid was far more detailed and articulate without getting in the way of the rhythmic drive that makes Rega gear what it is and without being a bit edgy.
Again when I switched back and forth betwen the Chord Silver Siren and the D102 mk 3 the sound opened up and became more real with the vdH. They absolutely killed the Silver Sirens.
Just as obvious was the overall improvement in the sound of my system when I switched from Rumour 4 speaker cable to the vdH D-352 single run with homemade D-352 jumpers. The sound became richer and fuller withour losing any of the good stuff. I continue to make that distiction because with Analysis Plus the system became richer and fuller but lost it's way musically and seemed more like a room full of disparate parts and pieces rather than like a cohesive whole. The vdH has been a revelation in my system. HIGHLY recommended with Rega gear.
BTW, tried many different power cords with the Apollo and much like Frank has always maintained, it did more harm than good...until I tried the vdH Mainserver...OMG the difference was fabulous!!! Another step up was the Kimber Power cord (the cheap one,PK10) for the Mira. Like I said every addition I've made of late has been fabulous.
Hate to keep adding this but it's been since I met the fellas at Eugene HiFi who bring in all kinds of cables to try with Rega gear that I have consistently had good luck with cables.
Art, I'm curious...why do you think a power cable makes such a difference? I'd think the wiring in your home would be much more important and have a far greater impact than 1.5m of power cord, but I've never used anything but stock cords.
My stereo is currently set up at my girlfriend's house as I'm living in college dorms. I took the Apollo over there today eager to take it for a spin for the first time. Turns out I forgot to grab the power cable! Doh!
Shawn, I find the Chameleon a far better balance to my ears than the Couple and also I feel the Rega interconnect has this mechanical quality. I find it quite fascinating that we had such opposite results. Given this I'm not sure that Signature would be such a good move in your case.
Art, yes, I think I may prefer a slightly hotter presentation to you. Then again, perhaps I should re-try the vdH cables again...
It's a good job we are not all the same, I tried the couples, not to my taste, a bit more bottom end, but overall a touch to 'cloudy' for me. After borrowing various VDH and TCI I tried some chords. Finished up with the cobra's as they gave the balance in sound and attack i was looking for. Having changed from a planet to a Saturn, and recently swaped to Spendor speakers I will 'play' again when the bank balance recovers.
Hi guys. I'm running a Rega Mira 3 with B&W DM6s, Kimber Kables, and just the turntable at the moment.
I bought the Mira 3 from a mate who was running some JM bookshelf speakers off it. I found it to be a little harsh and perhaps too articulated (if that's possible!). On the DM6s however it's a match made in heaven. The most well-balanced sound I have heard in any system I've had.
It's amazing how loud you find yourself listening to the music at sometimes because the sound isn't strained at these higher levels. It's usually electronica that causes me to ramp up the volume a little too high but it's all fun.
I'm stuggling to find decent classical LPs in Australia though which is a shame.
But back to the point, I think that unless I was to spend a huge wad of cash on a pricey amp, I can't beat the Rega.
Josh, the wiring in the home is important and if I had dedicated circuits the sound would likely go up yet another notch. But Josh I don't think the power cords make a difference I know they do. It's as significant as a component change.
After listening to several power cords with the Apollo with what was usually detrimental effects and in one case (Naim) some positive change but the negatives were at least equal, I had given up and put the stock cord on and went proudly to Eugene HiFi and declared the stock power cord the best match. Dale said well let's see and promplty put the van den Hul Mainserver on and my jaw dropped (ofcourse I covered my face as to hide my slack jaw due to the embarassment of it all...lol!!). I was floored!
I really wanted to put the van den Hul Mainstream on the Mira but at $600 per 2 meter I knew that it would not likely happen soon. That's when I remembered my previous experiments with cables and that the Kimber power cord only seemed to enhance all of the good aspects of a system without an additive effect...could be a good match and at under 2 bones hey this could be good. Picked one up and WOW! It is fabulous, the more it burns in the better it gets. It's just a bit more grainy and unrefined (just a hair) than the Mainstream but at a 1/3 the price it's an amazing bargain and great match in this system.
Also to remember...the low end vdH cables are pretty much as Frank described, with few exceptions. The Bay C5, The Well Hybrid, and the D102 mk 3 are exceptions. The Orchid is where the vdH cables really get exciting...indeed you pay for that excitement but it's worth it. You won't believe how much more information you can retrieve from the Mira 3/Apollo combo.
What I was really getting at is why you think they make a difference. When there are hundreds of feet of power cable in your home already, and a wall outlet involved, how does 6 feet of cable manage to affect the sound reproduction of a unit knowing that it's carrying power that hasn't even hit the power supply yet?
I'm not going to make any conclusions of my own at this point, as I've never auditioned different power cables, but until I do I will continue thinking that the science is dubious at best.
I'll have to see if there are any VDH dealers in the Seattle area. There's no way I'm prepared to drop $600 on a power cable, but it would be fun to see if I noticed any differences.
I wonder if it is due to interference picked up by the interconnects from the power cable. Maybe the 'aftermarket' power cables simply reduce electrical interference. If true, applying shielding to the standard power cable may have very similar effects to upgrading the cable itself.
"What I was really getting at is why you think they make a difference."
Don't know and don't care...I only care that they do...sorry.
"applying shielding to the standard power cable may have very similar effects to upgrading the cable itself."
Not that simple I'm afraid. If it were then all shielded aftermarket power cords would sound the same or similar, and they don't.
Josh, it doesn't matter if the science is dubious what matters is the sound. There are alot of things science has yet to explain or there would be no need for science. I know what I and many others hear, for those who don't or who remain close minded...too bad.
My cables have continued to get better over time and that's a blessing. The oldest vdH dealer in the US is down here in Eugene. Eugene Hifi. Good luck on your quest.
I spent a couple of hours listening to the stereo today, and was able to try a few different interconnects. My 'standard' interconnect is simply Blue Jeans Cable's recommended product (proprietary Belden cable + Canare RCAP connectors). The other contenders were Chord Chrysalis, Chord Silver Siren, and a fancy looking Monster interconnect with a red and black braided shield that was given to me.
As much as I wanted to (in large part because my dealer offered me Silver Siren at half price), I honestly could not notice any differences. Once I get my bedroom furnished with acoustic treatments and can move things in there this summer I will give it another go. By this point everything should also be properly broken in.
I'd like to do some blind tests, as I think it is very easy to assume something sounds better because of the price tag. I recall reading of several such tests where the 'expert' listeners could not distinguish between cables/interconnects with any degree of accuracy.
I'm still very much on the other side of the fence on this one, and I don't think that has anything to do with being closed minded.
If you can't tell the difference then by all means don't spend money on them. There is a lot of good reading about the efficacy of blind tests relative to audio and I suggest you read some of it. Just use google and off you go. I have done blind tests with a great deal of reliability but still don't believe that they are in any way important relative to audio.
Hey Josh, I have tried this cable thing four times now. After reading some forum or listening to some audiophile/store owner, I get curious if some cable whether power or interconnect will somehow transform my Rega system to another level. Every time I try I am initially shocked at how different the sound is with the new (but broken in) cable in place. I momentarily think "this could be an improvement", then I listen to a few really familiar cd's or lp's and switch back to my stock Rega power chords, and Rega Couple and realize there has been no improvement overall, in fact just the opposite. I always gain some "air" and "space" and "detail" and always at the cost of timing and pace and drive and musical relationships and a lot of other words to describe the sound. Usually bass suffers most! I tried this weekend with a borrowed power conditioner that a friend swears will reduce the noise floor and reveal the true capabilities masked by my noisy power lines.... I put on Neil Young's Comes a Time CD and listen to track 3, " Look out for My Love" which chugs along with a drive and energy when Neil plays it live, and on this cd through my Rega system, but tends to be slow and flat and boring on most other systems i have heard. Naim and surprisingly inexpensive Nad seemed to do a good job! Anyway, once my Planet 2000 was plugged into the power conditioner, the sound changed. The edge of treble was gone, and replaced with a boring rounded metallic sound, and the pace of the song seemed to drag. Remove the power conditioner, turn the player back on, press play, and ahhh so much better. I'm playing air drums again. This is the same experience I find with interconnects and power cables as well. Not to say a better one doesn't exist, and I haven't tried Art's VH cables, but so far I always feel relief when I return to the Rega cables. Try a Rega Couple. I know Frank doesn't like it, but I have found it to be far superior to anything else in a Rega system. It was designed by Rega to go between their components. Its shielding and plugs and material and whatever else a cable does is specific for this equipment. As far as I know, no other cable was designed that way for Rega. Most Naim users stick with Naim cable for a reason. For Rega its the same. All I can say is try it.
having said that I don't love my Rega Exact cartridge at all! So I know I have not been brand brainwashed and can still judge objectively.
Your results with the power conditioner are exactly what I would expect. I can't account for our difference in taste with the cables, but our experiences with power conditioners appear to be the same. I also appreciate what you're saying about trick cables making the system sound slow. There's no doubt that the Rega Couple is a very fast sounding cable. I just find it too restricted in bandwidth and its somewhat mechanical presentation turns me off. You might like a cable I dislike but which I admire for its excellent bandwidth and pace. The Acoustic Precision Eikos interconnect is a microwave cable with basically all the qualities of the Couple (including, in my view, the mechanical touch) but also fantastic noise rejection and excellent bandwidth. If you can find a dealer (unlikely) it might be worth borrowing - oh and it's very sensibly priced too!
Thanks Frank, I'm surprised you find the Couple "mechanical", although I'm not sure what you mean exactly. I have found the silver cables from Chord or Qed sound metallic or tinny, so I had thought of the Couple as warm. Can you explain mechanical. Also, regarding power conditioners, have you ever had any improvement. For example plugging only the amps in, or phono stage, and not the source give any benefit or did you find it also robbed you of musicality? Lastly, I have never tried the Chord Signature, and have always been curious. Have you tried it, and can you explain the result. Does it maintain the speed and drive of the Couple and give space and air or is it thin sounding like the Chorus? thanks,
We really are coming at things from completely different perspectives I think.
The Chorus is the warm one to me! The Couple is, if anything, better balanced. The problem I have with the Couple is the same as I have with a pianola. It just sounds like a machine playing rather than a human being.
I agree that QED cables tend to slightly emphasise the treble, but they're pretty good cables really.
So, given that the Chorus sounds warm and big, and you say it sounds thin, how am I meant to describe the sound of the Signature? FWIW, I think the Signature is better balanced (more like the balance of the Couple), but it has the better bandwidth you'd expect for such an expensive cable. That said, I'm never completely at ease with its timing. It shows its best timing on the Regas (as opposed to Cyrus, Naim, Arcam for example) but I'm not convinced it's the best buy - and considering it costs as much as an Apollo I'm certainly not sure it's value for money!
To resurrect.... I wouldn't bi-amp with a Mira and Cursa. The Cursa gets started right where the Mira starts to fall apart. So just as your bass is firming the Mira is falling apart in the high end. I would simply pre-out to the Maia and forget the Mira's power amp entirely. Plus, unless you are using an active crossover before the amps, you are wasting time and money anyway. Trust me, I've actually owned and used both. Current rig is a Cursa (much better pre-amp than the Mira) and Maia.
Since the Mira isn't a pre amp that's probably a good thing for Rega. The Mira does however make a great low cost integrated solution for the less well heeled.
Art -- I was responding to the b-amping discussion far above. In my view biamping a Mira and Maia together is a poor suggestion, when a little more money could buy the Cursa/Maia combo.
Hi, I had a Mira 3 and added Exon 3's and used the Mira as a pre-amp only. Then I tried bi-amping using the Mira for the high's, the Exon's for the lows, the sound was different, but not better. The timing seemed somehow wrong, but i could never put my finger on it, and preferred the sound of using the Mira as a pre only. Then I sold my Mira and replaced it with a Cursa 3. Unfortunately the Mira left before the Cursa arrived so i couldn't do a side by side comparison, but initially the improvement seemed dissapointingly small, however the more i listened I realized the Cursa is a much better pre than the Mira was capable of and busier music whether rock classical or jazz is much more organized and sorted out than the Mira was able to do. There is a lot more texture and the Exon's seem quicker and more powerful and music more full and three dimensional with the Cursa. The Cursa 3, Exon 3's combo is really pretty amazing. But I had two years of only a Mira 3 integrated and had no complaints and listened to a ton of music. Its a great integrated amp, and is much more musical than a lot of more expensive options. Too bad my Rega Exact is such a mediocre cartridge!
Not sure with what cartridge though. I had a Dynavector 10x5 which has to be the most overrated cartridge on the planet. Acoustic guitars like old Martins on Neil Young's records sounded thin, bright and metallic lacking a woody warm deep sound. The Stones records sounded light and tinny, not dark and moody. At least the Exact gets these right, unfortunately at the expense of midrange air and detail! And yes, the Dynavector was installed correctly, and broken in. Any MM or high output Mc cartridge suggestions for a Rega P7 with either a Rega Fono or Graham Slee Era Gold?
Weird, that sounds nothing like a 10x5 to me. However, I borrowed a P7 for a few weeks and put my Dynavector Te kaitora Rua on it (more expensive than the deck) and the combnation was awful! I figure it must be the combination of Dynavector and P7. Now, I've had great results with Dynavectors on all the other decks including the P9, so this appears unique to the P7.
You could check out the new Ortofon Rondo range. I enjoyed them a lot, far better than ortofon's previous efforts. Then there's the Kontrapunkt range. And of course, there's rega's new Apheta. This is a quirky cartridge. In some respects it does things that I've never heard any cartridge do, but then sometimes it just seems to fall flat on its face. Weird - and annoying since in some respects it was absolutely sublime.
Then again, with a P7, you should really be looking at something a bit better than a Rega Fono! Think Tom Evans MicroGroove or MicroGroove+, Dynavector P75MkII.
thanks. I liked my Dynavector 10x5 on my P3, but it was awful on the P7. I also have a Graham Slee Era Gold 5, which is a great phono stage, but horrible with the Exact. I'm curious about the Apheta, but since I have been so unimpressed with the Exact, I think I'll steer clear of Rega's cartridges. I might borrow a friends Shelter 501 and an mc phono stage to see what that sounds like. Very un-PRAT, but a beautiful sounding cartridge in his system. thanks,
Don't completely discount the Apheta. In some ways it was astounding, just so damned ... inconsistent. You never knew what it would come up with next. But sometimes, it was simply the best I'd ever heard.
Were it not for the consistency factor I'd definitely have bought one!
I think the Mira is great, I had one for about a year. But when I upgraded to more power hungry "full range" speakers the limitations were revealed. The Mira just doesn't push the low end in a satisfying way. Kudos to Rega for the Mira's "honest" and uncolored output, but the Maia sounds far more powerful than the 25 extra watts would suggest. Especially for a detailed low end without the "bloom". Everything sounds more natural and less forced. Adding a Cursa to the mix also firmed the somewhat brittle high end of the Mira's pre-amp section. In the used market, the Cursa/Maia is the Rega gear to look out for. Combos sell on Audiogon for $1000 or so. I found the Maia 3 sacrificed smoothness for slightly enhanced resolution over the Maia 2000. Much like the jump from the original Planet to the 2000.
Overall, the Cursa/Maia is not "more of the same" compared to the Mira, it's a big step up and worth the extra dough if your speakers and listening requirements dictate.
