McIntosh Advice
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New member Username: ChrisgwdCalifornia Post Number: 4 Registered: Aug-06 | Hi, I have a McIntosh MC7106 6x100W amp that I am using in my home theater. The pre-amp / processor is an Arcam AVP700 7.1 processor, speakers are M&K all around except the center channel is a Klipsch. Right now I am driving the Front, Center and Surround speakers with the MC7106 with the center channel in mono (300W) and the rear channels are driven from an Adcom 545 2x100W amp. I am thinking of replacing the Adcom with another McIntosh in the 150 to 300W range and turning it around to drive the front channels. I am generally looking for a pre-owned amp. I'd appreciate any advice on model numbers to look for. Thanks, Chris |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10096 Registered: May-04 | . Mac is Mac. |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 466 Registered: Apr-06 | Good way to put it haha |
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New member Username: ChrisgwdCalifornia Post Number: 5 Registered: Aug-06 | So, I don't get it. Are you just Mac bashing? or are you saying that they all sound alike? Thanks, Chris |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6510 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, Jan has several Mac's. Any model you choose will complement the 7106. Choose a model and power rating to your liking, the performance will be mac.(a good thing). |
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New member Username: ChrisgwdCalifornia Post Number: 6 Registered: Aug-06 | Nuck, Thanks for the clarification and sorry for the question. Maybe I should be more specific. I notice by reviewing Roger Russel's site that there are several generations of McIntosh Amps. He has a brief listing of specs for each amp, so that's all I have to go on yet. If I look at these two for example: MC 2205 Stereo Power Amplifier ELECTRICAL: 200w/ch. (400w mono). Response 20-20kHz (+0 -0.25dB). Distortion 0.1%. Noise and hum -95dB. Output impedance 1, 2, 4 and 8 ohms. (0.5, 1, 2, and 4 ohms in mono). Damping factor 16 or greater. Input impedance 100k. Input sensitivity 0.75v or 2.5v. Headphone impedance: low. Sentry Monitor. Power Guard. Sold from 1975-1979. Last retail price $1649.00 MC 7200 & MC7200(W) Stereo Power Amplifier ELECTRICAL: 200w/ch into 8 ohms. 300w into 4 ohms. (600w into 8 ohms mono). Response 20-20kHz (+0 -0.25dB). Distortion 0.005%. Noise and hum -105dBA. Output direct coupled for 4 to 8 ohms. No autoformers. Damping factor 200 or greater. Input impedance 20k unbalanced, 40k balanced. Input sensitivity 1.4v or 2.5v. Sentry Monitor. Power Guard. Sold from 1989-1993. Last retail price $2779.00 There seems to be a significant difference in the specs. Would I notice a difference in the sound quality? Would one of these Amps pair up better with my 7106? What other differences might I notice? Thanks Again, Chris |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10099 Registered: May-04 | . McIntosh's general shop sound has been extremely consistent through the generations of gear they have produced. They have, of course, improved the technical specifications of their products as time has passed. For the most part, the changes in sound have been refinements of the Mac sound and in many cases, I doubt even fairly sophisticated ears could notice many differences when dealing with music material rather than test tones. For example, the THD and noise specs on the two amplifiers you site are worst case scenarios which would occur at the last gasp stages of driving the amplifier to its limits. In normal use, the two amps probably operate very closely alike and well within the limits of perception. Similarly, the MC275 tube amplifier, which was designed in the early 1960's, has been revived and is curently considered one of the best sounding tube amplifiers available today. This from what is for all intents and purposes an amplifer circuit in its fifth decade of service. As I said, Mac is Mac. One difference you might notice would be the autoformer coupling on one amp and not the other. This is a technical judgement and you can decide how important one advantage over another would be for having autoformers or not. You say you want these amps for the rear channels of your system? Determine how valuable the rear channels are to your system. If you are like most of us, the fronts require the power and sophistication in an amplifier while the rear channels are less so. I would all but guarntee you will not notice the difference between the two amplifiers sited if they are driving rear channel speakers. However, if you think your system requires the "better" amplifier and your budget allows its purchase, then I would certainly encourage you to buy the "best" amplifier possible and put worries about quality behind you, so to speak. . |
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New member Username: ChrisgwdCalifornia Post Number: 7 Registered: Aug-06 | Thanks Jan, My original post might be a bit confusing. I intend to use this amp on the front channels and am hoping to improve the 2-channel performance. I've placed my Adcom amp in the rear channels for the reasons you stated, but would move the 7106 around to the rears when I get this 2-channel Mac. Thanks again for your advice. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6512 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, you are into some serious stuff there. Your room had best be ready. |
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New member Username: ChrisgwdCalifornia Post Number: 8 Registered: Aug-06 | Nuck, Yeah, tell me about it. I just finished refinishing my den / home theater room. I am pretty happy with it so far. I hung the rear and surround speakers from brackets in the cieling, ran all wires in the walls, upgraded the main amp (7106) and pre/pro (Arcam). So far it sounds outstanding. It's a bit of a patchwork system, but the results are excellent. I really love the sound of the Mac. It made the largest difference. I've played all kinds of music for years, enjoyed a lot of live music of all kinds, and surveyed the amps that are out there (in what I could afford), and found that I really like the Mac sound. It's warm and vibrant and very easy for me to listen to. The more "accurate" amps are just harse and taxing for me to listen to. I could listen to the 7106 for hours. I appreciate your experienced ears when talking about some of the older Mac models. It's not like I can go and listen to them in a showroom. And even if I could, the showroom is not my den with my speakers. I was a little concerned that some models that show fairly different specs might have a different flavour to them that would not mix as well with the 7106. I am also and Electrical Systems Engineer (spacecraft). I understand that the specs are "rigged" to make the amps look good on paper and don't really represent their true capability. Some companies, like Adcom, may have been nearly ruined trying to improve their "numbers" so they appear good for the big box stores. I am in no real hurry, so this may take a while to locate the amp I buy. At this instant in time, I want to say MC7200, MC7300, MC300, MC150, MC162? Thanks again for your advice! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6544 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, thanks for the background. Great to have you here! I would look for a local sale, if it is a Sunday Drive away. With the top down. Just got back from LA yesterday. Fine weather. Mac does not milk the specs, (well excepting their SS models),a bit. The mac sound carries well across the model line. The 2 line in mono are very good. With Jan''s tubes |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 528 Registered: May-06 | I am pirating this thread. Nobody else is using it and I cannot figure out how to post against "Hierarchically Upgrading Your System" in the Archives of the Amps section. My dear friend lent me an MA6200 (Integrated Solid State) and after looking at it for almost a week I caved in and swapped it out with my Carver. If you really want to know what I think about my Carver, go read the above referenced post. The last thing I would do was to take my Carver M-4.0t out of my system. It is about 17 years old but has been completely refurbished and modded so it really rocks and extends, timing good, etc. The MAC had not been used in a bit and is 25 years old. The first 5 minutes of use and I thought, well it is close to the Carver but no, I will be switching back. Not to mention that I really had to open up the Rogue Magnum 99 pre-amp to get the same volume levels as I did with Carver. However there was more bass presence coming from the MAC. After 10 minutes I recognized that the MAC was not as "snappy" as the Carver and the vocals were maybe 1/2 octave lower in register, somewhat softer and laid back, easier to listen to. Finite details were still a little hazier than with the Carver. 15 minutes into the audition, brush drum sounded better with the MAC than with the Carver. Vocals are definitely better with the MAC. I begin to notice one of the little yellow lights flirting with me or winking at me. Guitars are missing something or a little flat as compared to the Carver. 30 minutes, what started out as 2 similar amps with minor variances is now becoming 2 distinctly different and not in a good way if you are a Carver owner and a MAC borrower. Ahem, can an amp add cohesiveness to the equation of a listening experience? (Don't bother the MAC already answered that one.) Frequency ranges with the same instrument which used to appear as separate notes on occasion now flow straight through from top to bottom and back, almost like where there was a separation there is now an overlap. 40 minutes, the left little yellow light wakes up during the last 2 minutes of Pink Floyd's "Animals" - "Dogs on vinyl. Guitars not only step up but are all of a sudden incredibly cohesive. 45 minutes, the MAC establishes that while WPC challenged as compared to the Carver it too can do loud very well. The yellow lights bring back memories of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" with Richard Dreyfuss and the aliens doing a flashing lights rock concert. 50 minutes, smooth upper range (which I initially thought, no way the Carver does not dominate this aspect), clear and forceful showed up on the MAC. On PF - Animals - Sheep, what had sounded like a hydraulic machine now sounds like a printing press. 60 minutes, the deepest detail is no longer fuzzy, overall sound sounds richer, more textured than that other amp I had in the system. Diana Krall has a distinct and appreciable softness to her presentation, makes listening much more relaxing. Coup d'etat, playing my reference CD, Super Sounds, track 10, a drum solo. The first 15 seconds I thought was just a little warm up, like "Ah yeah, I play drums, and this is what I am playing on". I now know the performer was tapping each cymbal snd drum skin so that the listener would recognize that one cymbal on the left was 3 feet back of the other and the cymbals on the right were 2 feet apart and that one drum was right over the bass but the other one was 6" to 12" back of it, etc. This is where I stopped everything and called my friend and expressed how terribly I felt that I had left my door unlocked last night and the MAC had managed to slip out into the night. Now listening to Les Paul and Mary Ford, Three Dog Night as I type this at low volume levels and am constantly having to stop as the "background" music keeps pulling me in. One of the reasons for this post is for me to identify that I feel like I am becoming the poster boy for paradigm shifts. There is so much I changed, embracing what I "knew" to be right only to have my friend push me into trying something different. I think too often we are so sure of something we miss opportunities because we assume things based on our paradigms and refuse to try something "out of the box". I never would have felt I would say this, but is anybody interested in a 2 channel 375 wpc Carver? I have one for sale or trade. I will most likely sell or trade every spare part I have and some not so spare so I can get into a 2 channel MAC amp. Any suggestions? BTW, Jan is a very good and dear friend to have. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 335 Registered: Dec-06 | Very nice, Mike. Great writing. I think you understand this stuff more than most. A great ear. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5093 Registered: Feb-05 | Go get 'em Mike. Love the Mac gear. Someday if and when I tire of the Rega I'll look thataway (or toward Naim, way different but I love both approaches). 'Til then ahhh! By the way I respect someone who admits to change based on experience...cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 531 Registered: May-06 | Thanks guys, appreciate it. Janis is wailing at me now.  |
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Bronze Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 51 Registered: Jul-07 | Now look what you started. I had to look at http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl and there is a lot of MAC there. Do you suppose these guys keep upgrading? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 534 Registered: May-06 | KC Thanks for the lead. You are right there is a lot listed there. I will need to read up on the various models, but for right now, I need to catch up at work from this diversion. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10810 Registered: May-04 | . Mac is Mac. |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1082 Registered: May-05 | AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGG, I hate you guys. I love my little Fisher tube amp but then you guys go and do something like this. Fantastic review Michael BUT . . . I can't afford to do this again. Plus, I am now lusting after the Jim Salk speakers and the way I see it, this would be about a $5000 to $6000 hit for a new stereo set-up. I can't justify it OR, can I . . .????? MAC is MAC indeed, Mr. Vigne. LOL |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10834 Registered: May-04 | . New Mac is newer. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7960 Registered: Dec-04 | With a trade in for older. |
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Bronze Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 54 Registered: Jul-07 | omg- there is a ton on eBay too. Remind me in a few years ;) |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7966 Registered: Dec-04 | KC, I wouldn't look on the bay for a Mac. The Gon is better, properly kept. Ideally, I would see a dealer for used ones, maybe in Seattle? |
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Bronze Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 56 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks Nuck. Just curious to see what is out there. I am not ready. Too much new right now! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7982 Registered: Dec-04 | Me too. But the Mac 2275 will live here some day! |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1084 Registered: May-05 | Ok guys, I just kinda hijacked this thread for the following Dave picking your brains service promotion. Let's just say, I was looking at a Mac. Why the 2275 Nuck? Jan, what are you using now and what have you owned in the past and why did you migrate? If I were looking for a Mac to run something like the Salk Veracity HT3s or HT2s, what might you guys recommend? I'd want to stick with tubes and probably an integrated although I could go with an amp/pre set-up. What's the improvement over my current Fisher 30 wpc set-up? Thanks as always and "YES" I know I'm not giving you anything about what I listen to (just about everything), my room size and treatment (13' X 15 1/2' with the stereo on the short wall, carpeted with blinds over the window and no other sound treatment - it's new and the wife says "no" for now) and I'm using the Arcam 92 for CDs, no vinyl anymore, boo hoo. Please don't throw me in the Briar patch . . . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10859 Registered: May-04 | . Geez, Dak, I get tired when I have to find out all the information about a speaker or amplifier. Then I search and there's not enough information to tell me anything! Ya'want a recommendation for something to work with something else, I gotta know something about the something your considerin'! I can't find any technical info on these speakers. I have no idea how difficult they might be to drive. The company's webpage lists Jolida so I suppose they think they work well with that tube amplifier line. There's not much you can buy in McIntosh that won't drive almost any speaker, so pick what you like. There's a big difference between a MA5100, MA6200 and a MA2275 and there's not much difference at all. I have used the same MC240's for the last twenty five years. I "migrated" to them because they're Mac tubes. Beside than the fact they were paid for twenty five years ago, there's no other reason I still have them other than they're Mac tubes. I have no real clue what your Fisher sounds like. You've had it refurbished and I don't know what a refurbished Fisher sounds like. So, I can't tell you what will be "different". The Mac will be a Mac. Go listen to a Mac. If it sounds better than what you own, that's the difference. . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 553 Registered: May-06 | Dakulis, That is what has me where I am, scouring for a MAC, trying to be fussy about what one, as if it matters. I am using the amp side only of a on loan 25 year old MA6200 and it took me by surprise. Be careful what you listen to is all I am going to say. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8022 Registered: Dec-04 | Dave, the 2275 because it is a top tier product,and you are paying, not me. I have heard a few old Fishers, and the quality is good. Your Fisher might be as good as a Mac, but you are listening to the music, not the gear, right? Good to see you,Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1085 Registered: May-05 | Jan, Sorry for the frustration, not intended but certainly well understood. I should have linked the salksound website but it looks like you found it. Sorry, but that's all I have to go on and the fact that I heard a pair of HT3s and they were incredible but I don't own the $25,000 to $30,000 in SS gear the guy was using to drive these. This was Audio Research (?) ss stuff and I know very little about it but he lots of wpc. That said, I like the sound of my Fisher and I suspect the only way I'll be able to compare is to buy or borrow a Mac and do an A/B. Michael, thanks, I got that drift from your post, I'll be very careful. LOL Nuck, I was hoping for more but I get the point. Thanks guys, Dave. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10884 Registered: May-04 | . Take your Fisher to a Mac dealer on a quiet afternoon and compare. I suspect you'll be surprised. And soon in debt. . |
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New member Username: SatuserPost Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | I have a pair of ProAc Studio 140's that I am using with a Denon AVR-887 HT receiver. The Denon is ok for the home theatre sound, but the quality of stereo sound is pretty bad. I love listening to New Flamenco, Jazz, Indian Classical and many other types of instrumental music but nothing really sounds good on my current setup. Can someone please suggest a good integrated amp / tube amp that can really drive my ProAc's well? My max budget is around USD 2000 - 2500. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10888 Registered: May-04 | . Since you're already here, a pre owned McIntosh integrated amplifier would do the job nicely. Otherwise, why'd you pick this thread to hijack? |
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New member Username: SatuserPost Number: 2 Registered: Oct-05 | I had meant to start a new thread but being a newbie posted in the wrong place. In any case, thanks for your response since McIntosh was on my list of options, but a new one was beyond my price range. Can you suggest any model numbers I can look at? Thanks |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10889 Registered: May-04 | . Read the thread for my opinion of worthy McIntosh models through the years. |
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New member Username: ChrisgwdCalifornia Post Number: 9 Registered: Aug-06 | Jan, I am interested in your opinion. What thread are you referring to for worthy Mac models? Thanks, Chris |
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