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Silver Member Username: LovegasolineNYC, Brooklyn Post Number: 132 Registered: Jul-05 | If a source component (ex. a CDP) has provisions for both RCA and balanced outputs and it is connected to a preamp via the balanced inputs, but the preamp is connected to an amp which DOES NOT have provisions for a balanced connection, what benefit, if any, is potentially derived from having the source-and-preamp ONLY connected via balanced cables? Or is this inadvisable, and if so why? Another scenario: if a source does NOT have balanced outputs and is connected to a preamp via RCA cable, but the preamp DOES have balanced outputs and it is connected to an amp with balanced inputs, is any potential benefit derived? Or is this inadvisable, and if so why? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9983 Registered: May-04 | . A true balanced line connection provides six dB of noise reduction. Depending on how the components make the transistion from balanced to unbalanced, the result could be worth using. If the conversion is through transformers, the transformers must be of high enough quality to give good results. If the conversion is done through differential circuitry, there may be enough noise and distortion added by the circuit to all but nullify the benefits of balanced operation. If you are unsure of any of these conversion techniques in a particular piece of equipment, the way to determine what sounds best is to listen to all options. . |
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Silver Member Username: LovegasolineNYC, Brooklyn Post Number: 135 Registered: Jul-05 | Jan, thanks (as always) for the reply. The only item currently in my system is a Meridian 508.20 CDP. I do not know which balance methodology is utilized. How would I determine that? Speaking of balanced connections, as a rule of thumb is the voicing of cables more prominent in an RCA connection vs. cabling voicing in a balanced connection? I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the nature of a balanced connection somehow eliminated (via capacitance??) the voicing effects of different cable constructions? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6340 Registered: Dec-04 | I never found that Gas. The db boost is across the range, but, as always, the cables will make a difference. As will everything else, of course. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9991 Registered: May-04 | . Test |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9992 Registered: May-04 | . OK, now that that's resolved. The dealer can tell you how the conversion is performed in the Meridian gear, or you can contact Meridian. Either can probably advise you further on mixing unbalanced and balanced lines on the Meridian equipment. I would suspect Meridian uses differential circuitry and that there is no problem making the conversion from unbalanced to balanced or back again. As to interconnects, I don't know how to advise you. Capacitance and inductance are factors of cable construction. Adding another conductor to the jacket isn't going to dramatically affect either value. Separating the shield from the ground, which is technically done in a directional unbalanced cable, will resolve some issues (mostly concerned with RFI and ground loops but affecting capacitance and inductance slightly depending on the cable construction) but the overall construction of the cable will still determine L&C values and sound quality. Materials make a difference in sound quality when you discuss most consumer audio cables and should be considered no different in balanced lines. Teflon dielectric sounds different than PVC and foamed Teflon sounds different than solid Teflon. Which you like is up to you. Certainly, if you look at the ads for Kimber, Cardas, AudioQuest, etc., their claims are for superior performance in their balanced lines as well as their unbalanced cables. I think you hear less about cable differences in balanced lines merely because so few consumer pieces make use of this connection. In the real market for balanced cables, the pro sound products, there is little sense to be made of the claims for superior performance of one cable over another. Most engineers are more concerned the cable makes the connection every time and has low capacitance and inductance by nature rather than that the cable sounds a particular way. (Inductance is typically not a problem in balanced lines. I won't say never, but I can't recall a cable meant for balanced construction that isn't a twisted pair which normally reduces inductance in the cable.) That said, most engineers have a favorite cable they prefer for its sound quality and reliability. At the moment I'm using a very minimalist construction in my cables and I think I'm having great succes with the DIY design. It's certainly cheap and goes against most conventions of consumer cable design. Whether it will work for someone else, I don't know. My tastes and my system are not like most other's, I know that from experience. As I have advised here before, I will suggest you not get caught up in audio jewelery. Consider just what you are being sold. . |
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Silver Member Username: LovegasolineNYC, Brooklyn Post Number: 137 Registered: Jul-05 | To clarify my post up thread, the Meridian CDP is the only item in my system which has provisions for balanced cables and as such balanced cables are not in use. I was wondering what factor balanced inputs/outputs play in gear mating. I do not know if provisions for balanced connections generally (yeah, that's a broad brush) come into play in selection of equipment. More specifically, in my case should it matter what sort of jacks a preamp/amp incorporates as long as the gear can be connected together. I may be upgrading my amplification at some point and didn't have a clue whether looking for amps/preamps with balanced jacks should factor into what gear I audition. Here's an example. I'm curious to listen to McCormack gear (DNA-1, DNA-125) and note that these, their lower wattage amps do NOT feature balanced jacks (but balanced jacks are offered as aftermarket upgrades and a fair amount of these circulate on the used market)...while McCormack's higher wattage amps DO incorporate balanced jacks on the stock units. I was wondering why that would be (other than cost cosiderations) and if there were sonic design considerations, or usage consideratios, that determined the suitability of balanced circuits. Or if there is no rhythm or reason in it and it's just the whim of the designer and the sales department. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6348 Registered: Dec-04 | Gas, consider the upgrades as a questionable proposition, based on what Jan has provided. IF he kit comes with the transformers to accomplish the retrofit, then, yes, the improvement may be there. However, this sems like a rather detailed installation, involving specific conductors, routing and so on. If the balance is achieved via other circuitry, then you really must try it yourself, of trust in the advise you are given, before digging in. Any reasonable componant which offers both balanced and unbalanced operation have the componantry available. It is a matter of question 'how' this achieved. Simply lifting a neutral is fine, and delivers some benefit, but only if the rest of the componant itself can deliver on the potential. I have a Classe pre-amp with both connections. It has transformer based connections(I checked, after Jan told me). It mates to an amp with balanced conn's.(transformers again, in fact, a seperate torroid). The DAC has a transformer balance. My Rotel CDplayer is unbalanced. Unless I try a balanced output player(the Rega Apollo is not), I may never know. The rest of the system works well as a balanced unit. The bias matching(output of the cdp vs input sensitivity of the pre) would seem more important to me than the balance on the input. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9995 Registered: May-04 | . Should you consider balanced lines when choosing your next piece of equipment? Hell, yes!!! Here's what I don't understand; what the hell audiophiles do with their brains when they buy equipment. It is a given that balanced lines lower the noise floor by six dB over an unbalanced line. No argument. We all agree on that fact. Over the past five decades of "improvements" in audio gear, where the price of equipment has gone from possibly-in-reach-by-the-average-schmoe to stuff that is unreachable by all but the welathiest individuals, the effort has been to hear more low level information from the source. Turntables have gone through the stratosphere in price - coupled to $7500 cartridges - trying to get a lower noise floor, all the while using an unbalanced signal output. Some tonearms even tie their electrical ground to the ground return of one channel coming from the cartridge! Amplifiers are plugged into expensive AC line conditioners trying to lower the noise floor of the signal all the while using ubalanced lines for the signal. And the cheapest, most illogical connector ever designed to make use of scrap materials is still the norm for almost every piece of audiophile gear. The simplest pro audio gear won't use unbalanced lines due to the ground problems and noise the method typically presents. But audiophiles dump huge sums of money on cables with RCA connectors. It makes no sense! There is nothing technically right about an RCA connection other than it should be cheap. So, should you look for an pre amp/power amplifier with balanced lines? Yes. I wouldn't make my decision based only on the fact the equipment has balanced lines, there's plenty of junk with good connectors. But, if I had my choice of using one or the other, RCA connectors would never be seen in my home again. The only exception to this rule for me is when a manufacturer such as Mark Levinson provides an equally good connector of their own. But this ties you down to their connectors and cables. So, once again, consider what you are being sold. . |
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Silver Member Username: LovegasolineNYC, Brooklyn Post Number: 138 Registered: Jul-05 | "Here's what I don't understand; what the hell audiophiles do with their brains when they buy equipment." -Jan Jan, your response highlights my confusion. I am a baby audiophile with extremely limited experience and exposure...my understanding is a miasma of reading (from recognized sources, from the democratic anarkky of internet sites and forums, and from the self serving bias of equipment manufacturers) coupled with a threadbare listening history. That's why an aspect of audiophilia such as balanced components can be so confusing. One sees balanced components rarely on the least expensive equipment; it lives in the domain of finer gear. And yet expensive turntables and amps exclude it .... its exclusion is rarely explained or discussed as a critical decision...it just isn't there: like meeting someone with a missing finger, people simply accept it and speak no further. One sees $5,000 used RCA cables for sale, which would lead a novice like me to conclude that an RCA is more than fit for the job at hand if an industry and market are putting such a high value on them. And as you mention Jan, turntables do not have balanced outputs. Such a panoramic view of the audiophile field leaves someone like me with the impression that a balanced circuit is a non-essential afterthought, a specialty item, and a non-vital option like a unit being offered in a special anniversary edition faceplate. Does the faceplate have an effect on the components fidelity? Balanced circuits inhabit the same arbitrary domain. Audible Illusions Modulus 3A: Optional: Internal, gold-plated, left & right channel circuit boards for low-output M/C phono cartridges. Mirror-Polished, Nickel-Silver and 23k Gold Faceplates. Also, Clear-Anodized faceplates and control knobs. Features: * Circuit Design is Dual Mono, Class-A, Single-Ended Triode, open-loop. * External Power Supply, housing three separate supplies, prevents unwanted AC-induced distortions. * Main Chassis has five-separate, fully-regulated FET power supplies in addition to separate filament supplies. * Audio Circuit has no Cathode Followers or Buffers. * Standby Soft-Start Circuit prolongs tube life and circuit components. * Automatic-timed muting with tri-color LED. * Control Knobs have low-light, backlit Illumination. * Separate Volume Controls are Precision Stepped Attenuators. * Proprietary gold-plated RCA jacks with Teflon insulators. * All circuit boards are hand-soldered with silver-bearing solder. All polypropylene and polystyrene capacitors are proprietary designs of Audible Illusions. Here it is again. You can buy the thing dipped in gold if you want, but balanced connections are neither included nor offered. This leads someone like me to, how useful can a balanced connection be??? It's not even on the order of an afterthought! Perhaps we need to restate it thus: "Here's what I don't understand; what the hell audiophiles do with their brains when they design equipment." |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6358 Registered: Dec-04 | Gas, if it true dual mono, then it is already balanced, and the connections are what they are. AI might might have dropped the ball there. I dunno. To send a product like that to market...I dunno. Are there any other connections available? Post a pic of the back panel, less see. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10010 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - I'm not sure how you put together dual mono and balanced but I certainly wouldn't automatically place the two as one follows the other. I have an old dual mono Citation power amp which uses unbalanced lines but spearate power transformers and signal paths separated for the most part from input to output. Also, I use dual Mac power amps wired in mono, again unbalanced. Dual mono merely suggests the separation of the two channel's signal path and often the power supply for both channels, particularly in high current power amplifiers. In the case of the AI the pre amp is technically dual mono since there are no shared signal paths between both channels. The pre amp uses dual mono volume controls and no balance control in order to maintain the separation of the signals from input to output without even a shared ground plane other than the common chassis. Those ins and outs are strictly unbalanced lines. The Modulus is a bare bones pre amp with minimal circuitry as evidenced by the lack of even an output buffer - as had been included in earlier incarnations of the AI. I cannot defend the decisions that designers make. In the case of the Modulus, the logic from the factory is the additional circuitry would add cost for little benefit to most of AI's clients since AI doesn't produce any source components. And any time a signal passes through any circuit, no matter how well designed and built or what other benefits the circuit might provide, there must be distortion and phase anomalies added to the signal. How much better could a Modulus sound if it were a balanced component? There's really no way to tell. It sounds quite good as is. Would any sane person spend the sums some cable companies ask for an unbalanced line and the worst connector in audio? Apparently. Though in many cases someone who spends $5k for cables isn't even aware of what they own, someone else has recommended and set up the system. It is there for entertainment and how it works is often not considered. Others who consciously make the decision to spend that kind of money on unbalanced equipment don't make sense to me. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6362 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, thank you for that info. I was, as usual, not knowing enough. Is the balanced connection a consideration with different products, does the output/input sensitivy still apply as usual? My kit has matching sensitivies, but the Rotel has it's output set to 8/10 ths. Gas, are you getting this? Hope so. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10021 Registered: May-04 | . I don't know what you mean. Input sensitivity and output voltage are simple functions of how much voltage does it take to drive the component downstream with minimal noise and distortion. So, yes, they still matter. Impedance still matters. Unfortunately, home audio still has very few of the "standards" that exist in the pro sound market even when using balanced lines. Without output buffers the Modulus 3A will have a shifting output impedance based on the position of the volume controls and the output impedance of the source component. That wouldn't be acceptable in the pro sound market. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6381 Registered: Dec-04 | Without knowing the Mod3A, how will the shifting output impedence affect the feedback circuit, however applicable, to Gas's unit or another? I guess we toss the damping factor out the window? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10024 Registered: May-04 | . No damping factor considered when you are talking pre amps and it would take some oddball input circuit to screw up the damping factor of the amp by way of the pre amp's output impedance. The output impedance of the power against the impedance of the speaker load amp and the amount of feedback in the power amp will still largely determine the damping factor, as if that counted for anything in the real world. The variable pre amp output impedance will mean pre amp to power amp cable length will be minimized to as short as possible and definitely no more than two meters. So, short interconnects and long speaker cables. Since most modern high end amplifiers run minimal feedback there should be no problems in that regard with this pre amp feeding his power amp. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6390 Registered: Dec-04 | So what amp should go with Gas's 3A? Given your affinity for the pre, what amp should be the best to hope for on the right budget? Gas, what have you been on to? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10026 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - You know I don't do those kind of recommendations. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6418 Registered: Dec-04 | The type of amp. Qualities that Gas should look for. Your stay away from features and failures. A type of amp to suit the pre. Balanced is a given. Beyond potted transformers, any other important items to pay attention to. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10030 Registered: May-04 | . ? |
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Silver Member Username: LovegasolineNYC, Brooklyn Post Number: 139 Registered: Jul-05 | Nuck, perhaps I wasn't clear in my posts, but I do not own an Audible Illusions preamp. I'm still listening to my Yamaha A-700 integrated. I'm interested in listening to the 3A but at this point it is probably priced outside my budget. I'm trying to learn a few things about compatibility between components and also how different technologies contribute to a system's sound. I'm STILL digesting the balanced circuitry info. Thanks for breakdown Jan. One more question while we are discussing balanced circuits. I was researching phono interconnects (TT > Pre) and came upon this cable by DIY: http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=516 and if you look at the options, a balanced termination (on the input end of the cable) is available. How does that function if the terminations for the TT end are different, RCA? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10047 Registered: May-04 | . I'm not sure of the particulars with that cable. Probably the buyer specifies how the cable should be constructed for their application. A phono cartridge lends itself to a true balanced line since the hot and neutral are separated at the cartridge coils/magnets and do not share a common ground (which is typically the tonearm earthing) as most components will. Add a shield to the cable/connection and you have a straight forward balanced line. If you should find a pre amp with true balanced phono inputs, the cable would be wired as a balanced line with the neutral return leg lifted above the ground potential, which normally is shared with the screen or shield and connected only at one end of the cable (but not always). Make a note that the standards for wiring a balanced line, typically managed through XLR's but also available through other connectors, allow some variability as to which pins are hot and which are neutral, ground and screen. Plugging a miswired, for your equipment's interface, XLR into a piece of equipment will immediately result in a service call from the tech. And, it is not all that uncommon even in professional gear to have one component that uses pin 1 as neutral while the interfacing component uses pin 1 as hot. This requires a cable connected exclusively for that interface and should be clearly marked "not for use with all components". Typically pin 1 is neutral, pin 2 is hot and pin 3 is ground/shield. Add to this the availability of four and five pin XLR's and the use of two, three or four conductor (with a screen) cable to make any connection, and the whole affair can get rather dicey if you're not paying attention. If you are merely using an XLR connector for its superior connection properties compared to a RCA plug, then you wire the XLR any way you like. Pin "standards" go out the window and you are only using the pin number to keep things straight in your mind or according to the manufacturer's conventions. This also runs into the problem of how many conductors are being used in the cable, which also has no real standards between cable and equipment manufacturers. Most people conform to the "standards" of pin 1 as neutral/ground but there are no real conventions that apply here. Check the manufacturer's requirements before you plug anything together and use your VOM to assure proper connections. Wiring a XLR with good solder connections is much easier to manage than any RCA plug I've come across; add to that the locking ability of a XLR, the connection of hot and ground at the same time when making or breaking the connection and the fact that XLR's are self-wiping and gas tight connections, and a XLR is just a better plug and jack to use. As a note, a RCA is the only widely used audio plug I know that makes the hot before the neutral, is not a self-wiping connector and has no real locking facilites that don't in some way compromise the connection and will allow oxidation of the connection over time. Audiophiles have married a pig! Using pin 1 as ground/neutral, pin 2 as hot and pin 3 as shield, an unbalanced XLR connection physically gets wired the same as a balanced line but the neutral and ground are a shared conductor (the main disadvantage of an unbalanced line) and the shield is tied together with them at the source component, so there is no advantage electrically. Depending on the equipment interface again, the manufacturer might want neutral/ground and shield combined or separated to reduce noise. So, once again you would want to check the requirements of the components and label any unusual cable construction as such. http://pinouts.ru/Multimedia/xlr3_pinout.shtml . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 190 Registered: Dec-06 | Hi Jan, I've been trying to read up on this "balanced/unbalanced" business. My Rotel RB1070 doesn't offer balanced connections but that didn't mean much to me when I made the purchase. I know I liked the sounds I heard when I auditioned the Rotel Pre/Amp with Studio 60's. Now, I'm not necessarilly trying to improve on my system...in fact I'm not trying to do anything in my system (right now). I'm more interested in the know-how. I found this review in Sterophile Mag... Rotel refers to "Balanced Design" in their literature, and the RB-1 has balanced inputs, so one might think that the amp is a balanced design in the same way that products from companies like Balanced Audio Technology are balanced. It's not. Like virtually all moderately priced amplifiers with balanced input connectors, the Rotel is what some call "pseudo-balanced," in that the circuitry itself is unbalanced; balanced input signals are converted to unbalanced internally. It's been my experience that any superiority of balanced connections is evident only if the preamplifier and amplifier are both fully-balanced designs, and that balanced connections used between two components that are internally unbalanced can actually degrade the sound. Unless your preamplifier is fully balanced, my advice would be to use the unbalanced connection even if the preamplifier has balanced outputs. This way, you bypass one unbalanced-to-balanced and one balanced-to-unbalanced conversion step. If the RB-1090 is not fully balanced, then why does Rotel refer to it as having "Balanced Design"? I'm sure there is no intent to mislead; their use of the term describes a design process in which all aspects of technical and sonic performance are given equal emphasis, and money is spent where it counts: in careful parts selection and use. Considering the RB-1090 as evidence, it's hard to argue with Rotel's design approach. Yes, the review is in regards to the 1090. I own the 1070 but, I was looking at maybe a 1080 which does offer balanced connections. Can we assume that the conversion is done thru circuitry and not transformers? Also, I know you can't speak for Rotel but, why would they offer up a balanced amp but no pre or cdp? I've never been a fan of the RCA plugs and I don't think I could articulate a valid reason for my disliking other than I just don't. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10429 Registered: May-04 | . No, I wouldn't assume anything regarding how the conversion is made in any product unless I saw it or heard it from a reliable source. I don't really have a clue as to why Rotel would offer balanced inputs but no balanced outputs. It doesn't appear Rotel is very serious about the sonic benefits of balanced lines however. If your unit is out of warranty, you could consider replacing the RCA's with a different connector. . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 192 Registered: Dec-06 | Alright, Jan... Not that you asked for the info, but here's what I got from Rotel service tech. In Rotel's 1080 amp the balanced input was added as a convenience for those with balanced pre-amp. The balanced input is simply converted into the same circuitry that the unbalanced input uses. Simple circuitry, not isolation transformers. I was also told that Rotel does not offer balanced connections because they do not feel it to be cost effective. Maybe I'll just bi-amp another 1070. I would also like to state that I am VERY happy with my kit! I dug into this balanced/unbalnced issue more for my own understanding of it than anything else. I'm also about 4 years and 9 months away from warranty expiration. I'll keep the soldering gun in the tool box for now. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7299 Registered: Dec-04 | Stryvn, a soldering gun? With the information you now posess, it seems your questions have been adressed by Rotel. Back to the bi-amping. It would be fun to do that, if you have the room. 2 amps look so good on the floor,(IMHO), but the little ones would likely shut out that display option. The balanced connections accomplish what has already been discussed, bi-amping brings a whole other dimension to the plate. Your Paradigms would likely deliver a more enthusiastic sound with the 2 amps, without lowering the noise floor,and open up the sound a great deal. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 193 Registered: Dec-06 | EXACTLY, Nuck. A soldering gun. Still think I'm the right guy to be opening electronics and replacing rca's? Warranty or not. I like the idea of 2 amps. Display? I guess that needs to be explored. |
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Silver Member Username: Sun_kingLeeds, West Yorkshire UK Post Number: 366 Registered: Mar-04 | As has been stated, the best answer would be to test both options. However, buying a whole load more cable just to check would be very expensive. So, unless you can borrow some decent balanced interconnects which are exactly the same make and model as your unbalanced cables (this is crucial if you're to decide which method of connection is best), you're not going to be able to test this theory. In my experience, when I've tried balanced cables before they have tended to sound a little sterile when compared to bog-standard RCA leads. Sure there is the drop in noise floor but you really can't notice that, it's just one for the spec sheets. |