Archive through February 26, 2007
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5925 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.hasbro.com/toothtunes/default.cfm?page=HowItWorks I just stuffed this here for lack of anywhere else. Imagine this with a jar of pebbles on the vanity. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5926 Registered: Dec-04 | Actually, a Herbie's mat wrapped around the handle and secured with sorbo really tightened up the midrange. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1661 Registered: Oct-04 | Despite Jan's poking at me, I decided to ease my boredom and to try to "do it myself" where CD mats are concerned. . . So - given that the $20 USD Grungebusters are basically silicone that's been shaped into "doughnuts," I ventured forth to the hardware store. Got some carbon fibre sheets used for making gaskets - 1/32" or about point-8 mm thick. Sanded down to make it about point-7 mm thick. Keeping in mind that a standard CD is about 1.2 mm thick, and Herbie's mats are point-6 mm thick. Got a tube of black pure silicone used for making gaskets. Got some good-quality metal washers, O.D. 1/34" and I.D. 5/8" About same size as Herbie's new "Black Hole" discs. Today, I'll do this: 1 - lay some wax paper on a smooth, flat surface. 2 - pour circles of the silicone on the wax paper. 3 - set strips of the thin fibre sheet on either side to use as height gauge. 4 - put a second piece of wax paper atop the circles, letting it spread out from them, and under the fibre strips to prevent silicone from sticking to fibre.. 5 - take a heavy pot with flat surface over the wax paper and the fibre strips, and press until the silicone spreads out at just the height of the fibre strips. 6 - let dry for 24 hours. Pull off wax paper. 7 - Using metal washers as templates, cut with sharp Xacto knife around outside and inside. Wash. 8 - spray a fine coating of pressure-sensitive 3M adhesive on one side of the disc. 9 - put it on CD and test to see if it works. Well - so much for boredom. Will review tomorrow. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1663 Registered: Oct-04 | OK - "if" my liddle black mats seem to work - and "if" any Stateside Olde Dawgs are interested - I'll gladly send one to you - free. first, however - a coupl-ah days of testing here. And for the tweak-of-heart - something else to think on re vibration control and gear-damping. Simple, cheap and apparently works well. Here's a review from Online. . . - - - - - - Rope Caulk MSRP $3 for 30 feet (about 1 1/2" wide) Available at Wal-Mart, Home Depot or nearly any local hardware store Generic Rope Caulk Here we have one of my favorite tweaks. I don't think a single piece of gear has come into my house that doesn't receive at least some of this stuff. Rope caulk has long been known for it's damping properties. Heck, I started using this way back in the 1970's on the underside of those cheap turntables to not only add mass but dampen the ringing of the platters and plinth's. My uses have expanded to using a dab on the tops of capacitors and opamps. I use it on the stamped metal baskets of speakers and the insides of cheap (and heavy) metal housings of almost any gear. I dampen CD mechanisms, I use it to seal my raw speaker drivers to the front baffle of a speaker enclosure, heck I use it for almost everything. It's literally indispensable for me. Nearly everything I use it on sounds better after it's applied. The effectiveness varies from piece to piece but basically the sound tightens up quite a bit. Bass is better defined, the image and soundstage get sharper. Pretty much everything you would expect from a tweak type gizmo. A word of caution though. Don't get this stuff too close to super-hot equipment like tube gear. It tends to get squishy. I'd be afraid it might melt and get all over everything. It might not, but I've not had the nerve to test it. Next, keep it away from any live circuits. Although I doubt it's conductive, I'd sure hate to see you roast a piece of gear because of careless placement. And a final word. The inside of our gear contains lethal voltages (amongst other nasties). If you are a novice to electricity, don't attempt any of these type (or any other) mods. We'd like you make it back to read next weeks articles. Other than that, try it everywhere. It's cheap and it works really well. This is good for about a 7 on the Tweak-O-Meter Scale. I use the heck out of this stuff. - - - - - - - - 'nuff said. LR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5936 Registered: Dec-04 | Another point. Rope style gland for pumps works wonders in the corners of transport cabinets. I ran a 1/2" gland around the rather square corners of my transport and I am pleased. The wax case can be preheated in an oven or hot water, I suggest augmenting the placement with mechanical fasteners. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1664 Registered: Oct-04 | Nuck: not sure what you're describing - what is a "gland?" The rope caulk mentioned above is a viscous rope that comes in coils - I get it at Ace Hardware. It's used to weatherproof windows, etc., and is quite soft and sticky. I just lay the rope in the corner, or whatever, and press it into place. It doesn't need anything further - it stays pliable unless there's a LOT of heat around it. Not to be used near equipment tubes, for example. NOW: I've got two liddle black "blobs" curing and one large "blob" curing - two for the small rings and one for a full-size ring to test on CDs. They need to cure for at least 24 hours. Then I'll cut and shape them, and test them on my player, probably either Monday night or Tuesday morning. Will report on the testing, if possible, on tuesday. Offer of a free small ring still stands. Mer actually pushed for the larger ring, saying that she had heard such a difference with the black CD-R that she wants to hear what a full-size black silicone disc does. Bless her heart. . . . M.R. - you, especially, might be interested in the large ring tests? The ring will be about point-7mm thick - much thinner than the black CD-R we used, which is 1.2mm thick, and thus is nearly at the "stop the player" point. More anon, LR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5943 Registered: Dec-04 | OK, Lary, window putty. Good stuff. For the cabinet, I am suggesting http://www.sealrite.co.uk/gland_packing.htm something like these. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5944 Registered: Dec-04 | It's the water gland on many water pumps which depend on leakage for a lubricant. I have wondered about the properties of this material for a while, it is very quiet in my transport. Mine came free from an industrial supply house via a cutomer, it does very well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9793 Registered: May-04 | . Larry - Doesn't the silicone "stick" to the disc without the adhesive? I would think the pressure sensitive adhesive would make the mat stick too much. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1665 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, et al: All I can say at this point is that Herbie's mats have some sort of stick-um on them. I'll try to use the mats without the glue first - then go from there. Y'all must understand that I'm just beginning an experiment here - so hit-or-miss should be expected. What is my dry time? Do I need to spread out the silicone with a straight-edge, or will it set up between the wax paper layers? We're watching it closely right now - and will post as we go along. Next posting on this experiment - Monday afternoon, when we (try to) peel off the wax paper. If the stuff isn't dry by then - on to phase 2. Sigh. BTW - friend Verne is VERY interested in this experiment, and some of his fellow engineers want all details we can give them. Seems some of them are very much "into" micro-vibrations and harmonics and the likes for recording purposes. Above my head, most of it. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9794 Registered: May-04 | . "Jan, et al: All I can say at this point is that Herbie's mats have some sort of stick-um on them." Not the one I have. The mats which are attached permanently to each disc have an adhesive, but the Grungebuster mat I have relies strictly on the "stick" of the silicone mat to the disc. This is what allows it to be transferred from disc to disc. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1183 Registered: Nov-05 | I acquired a new Gladys Knight CD (Before Me - covers of jazz favourites made popular by Holiday, Washington, Fitzgerald and Vaughn. Very highly recommended btw) this weekend and listened yesterday. Played it again (when Mrs R came home from work) after a Z6 treatment only, and it sounded that good I don't know if the Z14 is all that necessary - maybe only on older (used or scuffed) discs. The black vinyl matt provides similar results, but I am not applying it anymore - at least until I try out Herbies mat. Now we await for the latest audio news regarding L&M's silicone mats. Larry, maybe I'm not joking about you coming out of retirement! And I await your tests (lge and sml disc) with much interest. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5947 Registered: Dec-04 | I am kinda figgurin Larry should gain a byline with an audio mag and get some free stuff down there. The NHL GM meeting is going down in Naples as well, cooincides with the grapefroot league pitchers/catchers. Larry, I need autographs. Have them made to Nuck. I've read worse writers and even worse reviewers for a while. I vote for Larry. Let's name his column. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1666 Registered: Oct-04 | Ahem - well, just came back from a long and boring dinner party, where all I could think about was the ultra-loud guest who wouldn't shut up - and my liddle black blobs back home. Sigh. got home about an hour ago, and Mer couldn't wait to free the silicone from its wax paper "girdle." Sigh. I was afraid it wasn't cured, and would be a mess, but she insisted, and carefully started peeling. Well, the silicone WAS pretty well cured, and we had no accidents. The surface isn't as mirror-smooth as I'd like, but maybe that's not a problem. We'll let the blobs set up overnight, then clean them with mineral spirits in the morning - to remove the wax paper residue. Learned something new - it appears that one side of the wax paper comes off the silicone better than the other side does. Hmm. . . then - cut and fit - and slap them on some CDs by early afternoon Monday. Jan: THANX for telling me about "no glue" on the Grungebuster. From Herbie's description I thought surely there was some - and he does offer the silicone gaskets with or without pressure sensitive glue on them. I'll be using both the 1 3/4" discs and the full-size disc in my testing - and frankly don't know what to expect. I stand by my "freebie" offer - but please don't hurry me - I don't want to send out anything that has not been tested and checked over. This may mean a second or third generation, so please be patient with me. Jan again - as you're the only Dawg who has actually used the Grungebuster - is the difference in sound radically different, or so subtle that you have to strain to hear it. I know what you posted earlier, but I need reassurance here! (grin0 I, of course, will include Mer in the testing, as her ears are awesome in comparison to mine. Honestly - I look at these thin liddle thangs and wonder: how the heck can this make any kind of difference? Befuddled - that's me. More on this probably early afternoon Monday. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1667 Registered: Oct-04 | M.R. - I'm not sure the Z-14 is necessary, either, but for me at least, it seems to add a "depth" to the disc that the Z-6 alone does not. I think, however, that any sonic difference would be minimal - not worth your while to spend the money. When you DID put the black vinyl on your discs - refresh me - did it cover the whole disc, or just partsof it? thanx. . . Tomorrow I'll be covering both the full disc and just a small circle. We'll see. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1184 Registered: Nov-05 | The whole disc, and nothing but the disc, so help me Larry! Except for the hole in the middle of course [grin]. Happy experimenting. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1668 Registered: Oct-04 | Things I'm sorry I started (sigh) If you've got some time and don't mind shedding a tear or two (or laughing your sox off) read on. Otherwise, might be best to skip this saga! Got out cutting mat, Xacto knife with new blade and tamplate washer. Took small blob and put it on cutting mat - carefully cut around the outside. OK so far. Tried to cut accurately inside - but failed at several points, and it looks a tad ragged. Double sigh. Got big blob and did the same, only using a blank CD as a template. Outside diameter fine, but inside just a tad ragged. So hard to cut the silicone!! Here we go. Took small ring to CD, which had warmed up, and put the ring on a CD still in the jewel case. It's much easier that way, as you have to press down slightly on the silicone ring to "stick" it to the CD. Put in CD, and pressed Play. Drawer slid in, but I did hear a "tick" as it did so. Oh-oh! The disc did play, though frankly I heard nothing major in sound differences - so far. Hit "eject" and that's when the trouble started. OUt came the tray - NO disc. That meant, of course, that it had stuck to the upper clamp. I then said some un-gentlemanly words and started to unhook the CD player. Got it slud out and took it to a table, where I took off the lid - to find the CD stuck to the upper puck, as I thought. Sigh. OK - obviously I needed to do something to stop the silicone from sticking to BOTH disc and clamp. But since I had the player open anyway, I wanted to see what happened when I slid the drawer in and out. Good thing I did. For some unknown reason, when opening and closing, the upper puck drags across the top of the CD - even with no ring on it! Not good. What was wrong? I then took apart the little "bridge" that goes over the CD and contains the puck. Found nothing "wrong" there, but did finally learn exactly how the thing "clamps" to the CD. Has a tiny "pin" sticking down in the middle, which goes into a hole in the lower playing mechanism. Surrounding the pin is a small magnet, which is attracted to a second magnet in the lower unit. Pretty neat, actually. I also determined that, contrary to what I'd been told, once the disc is raised into the playing position, the upper "clamp" doesn't contact anything except the disc - just floats there with no contact with the upper bridge. OK - so what made the upper puck drag? I finally determined that the plastic bridge had a small "bow" in it, so that the puck was perhaps lower than it should be. I knew I couldn't straighten it, so I put some little strips of silicone under the two legs where the bridge contacted the lower unit - then screwed it back in place. Voila! When I opened and closed the drawer - even with the small ring in place - the puck no longer dragged, but still did firmly anchor itself in place while the disc was playing. So far, so good. . . Now - how to keep the ring from sticking? I'd read on Herbie's web site that some customers had sanded down the top surface to make it just rough enough to stop the stickiness. Have you ever tried to sand silicone? Don't. It doesn't WANT to be sanded! But I finally got the ring sanded, and tried the drawer again. Oh, forgot to say that I had the unit plugged in WITHOUT the cover on, so I could take everything apart quickly. Good thought, as it turned out. Well - even the sanded disc stuck after awhile - so I awayed to the bathroom and put some fine talcum powder on the top of the disc. Now it worked fine - in, out, in, play, out, in, play, out. No stick-um problems. Whew! Now - the full-size disc. This time I thought I'd sand the top surface before trying it - and after about six thousand hours of sanding, I was satisfied. (grin) Put it in, and hit Play - and thought that the sound was a bit "deeper" and very slightly less strident, as it had been with our black CD-R experiments. Well, I hit "eject," and the disc came out nicely. Home free, says I. Wrong. . . Put the disc in a second time, and it failed to seat properly, and vibrated horribly. Hit eject, and out it came. Put talcum on the full-size disc and tried again. Same problem - it failed to seat properly. What was wrong? Seems that the upper puck would "nick" the ring as the drawer closed, and put the CD off-center, so it would not clamp properly. Oh, crud. . . Nothing I did could change that, so I finally just gave up and went back to the small ring. That's where I am right now - player all apart across the living room - Mer soon to come home from her Art League studio - and then we'll try again to see if there's any difference. This has turned to be more work and trouble than it's worth - but at least I did find one problem in the player, which I "think" I've rectified. Double sigh. More details as the experiments continue - but I'm a bit pessimistic at the moment. If I heard ANY big changes, I'd be happy. I have not, so far. . . Stay tuned. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4099 Registered: Feb-05 | Yikes! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 260 Registered: May-06 | Ok Larry, having read this I now would like to change my order. I would like 4 small and 2 large discs with a side of talc, and 2 sandpapers I think this will end up being a deal where you ship out free discs put have to include a $42.50 handlinng and shippling charge per disc...LOL Good luck man, you are determined! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1669 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, Michael, et al: Sigh. No, double sigh. Mer came home from the Ahht Leeeg to find me with less hair and more purple stain around my mouth - from the red wine, doncha know! (grin) Welllll - we talked about the situation, and she looked around the rubble-strewn living room, and then started laughing. She said I'd been "round the bend" many times before, but this one takes the cake." Sigh. When she'd had lunch (and a big glass of wine) we settled down for some testing. I first showed her all the problems (CD player cover is still off) and how I did various things. Then, I laid out three discs - one opera, one jazz and one chamber music. Those three are our most-often listened-to genres. Did the old A-B-A testing with her. We tried the large disc, but never could get it to play properly, so we settled on the small ring. Back and forth, up and down. you know the drill. After about 15 minutes she said there "might be a little more of an open sound" with the ring in place. But she said that it only happened on some discs. And she said the difference wasn't worth all the effort, for sure. Then I did the test by myself, although in all fairness it was certainly not "double blind." I frankly could hear almost NO difference - just a bit of smoothness on one chamber music disc. Certainly not worth the effort it takes to put on and take off the little rings. I don't know how much farther I'll go with this experiment - or whether I'll even get to the second generation of rings. Will let y'all know - but right now I'm going to put the player all back together - and take a nap! respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1186 Registered: Nov-05 | The things we do for love! Well Larry, at least you gave it a good ol' try. I await Herbie's mat with a little less enthusiasm now and a little poorer. But, one never knows . . . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9799 Registered: May-04 | . Must ... sand ... silicone! Must ... sand ... silicone! Mer's coming home ... and ... I ... must ... sand ... silicone! Belt sander or orbital, Larry? How's Press and Seal looking about now? Try the experiments while listening through headphones, the differences are more clearly heard. The improvements are not, as I said, painted with a broad brush and are not as great on some disc as others. I am rather amazed at the comments made on Herbie's web page as to the total transformation some listeners claim. A new listening experience it ain't. Pleasant at times it is. Keep up the good work, this is how Edison, no, Henry Ford, ... uh, Marconi, that's it Marconi got started. Of course, he was aboard a ship and everyone was heaving their guts over the side, but, hey, we all have to start somewhere. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1670 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: that was Macaroni, not Marconi - but who's counting, eh? (grin) Sigh - well - thoughts while tending sheep. Called friend Verne this aft - to outline, at his direction, what had gone on, and gone wrong. He was very supportive, but had a few things to say about the "floating puck," etc. Herbie, on his website, defends his Grungebuster as being something that will diminish vibrations that go from disc to upper puck to electronics. Well - in my case, and apparently in many, if not most cases these days, there IS no direct connection from disc to upper clamping - because either the puck "floats" or there is some other mechanism, as in Art and Michael's Regas, where NO connection exists at all. Thus: no connection - no vibration transfer. Verne says that there is one thing to consider here: the out-of-round CD. He says he finds this on pop and country CDs all the time - but seldom on classical discs, because they are more carefully controlled in manufacture. He says that some of his friends buy el-cheapo CD players - take off the tops - and then set up a frame with 100-grit sandpaper. They put in a disc, turn on the player, and gradually guide the sandpaper up against the outer rim. Then, they sand away until they hear a solid sound, instead of vibration. The disc is then "rounded," and will - according to Verne - creat a lot less vibration on the player. No - I don't have that in mind - relax, everybody!!! But his point is well taken I noted today as I played discs in my un-covered player, that there is just a tiny bit of out-of-round evident in some discs. Hmm. . What's next? Well - first, I e-mailed Cambridge Audio about the bad construction on their upper puck housing. We'll see what they say. . . . Second, I think I'm about "burned out" on the black ring experiment. I'll probably try to produce four or five more - and if they come out OK, I'll send them on to y'all who have requested them. With NO promises that they'll make ANY difference at all! In re-reading Steve's web site - I realize that my experiments probably have no virtue at all - so I have to look elsewhere for sonic gain. M.R. - I hope that you hear improvement with your Grungebuster mat. I really do. But I question whether that mat is any better than the silicone mats I created here. Maybe there's some magic formula that I don't know about? Let us all know. . . this has been a tough road for me to walk - and I try to maintain my sense of humor through it all. But right at this moment, as I sit here with a large snifter of Napoleon VSOP, I just want to chuck it all. If my beloved Cambridge unit finally bites the dust, well, I'll have to consider a lot of options. Meanwhile, I keep on keeping on. thanks to all Dawgs who have understood my angst, and have been supportive. Respectfully. . .LarryR I'd say "no more tweaks," but then I'd find some other nutty thing to do. . . .. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9801 Registered: May-04 | . Thought Macaroni only experimented with feathers. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1671 Registered: Oct-04 | esoterica uber allis. . . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4632 Registered: Dec-03 | Yankee doodle, the cap-tweaker. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1672 Registered: Oct-04 | The "real thing" is a bust. Good friend called this ayem to chat about music - and I asked him if he's ever used the Grungebuster mat. To my surprise, he paused, then said to wait a minute. He went to get what he called the "plastic doo-dad" from another room. Turns out it's a real Grungebuster. He'd tried it, didn't hear anything, and put it in a drawer, where it's been sitting since last October. So - I drove over and got it - on loan, I thought, but he just said: "keep it, doesn't do me any good." Now I have a real thingy to experiment with - and when I tried it out just an hour ago - well, it was same song different verse. No difference at all. Called in Mer - who said there may be something somewhere, but she couldn't really "get" it. We tried several times on four different discs. Nuthing. Nope. Nada. So - I guess my homemade discs are right in league with herbies, eh? I just finished making four more of them - and for those who requested them - I'll put them in the mail once they're cured and cut and tested. Free. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9807 Registered: May-04 | . "I am rather amazed at the comments made on Herbie's web page as to the total transformation some listeners claim." |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1673 Registered: Oct-04 | E-mailed Steve (Herbie) re my experiments and results, and got this back. - - - - - - - - - We have several customers using CD mats on Cambridge players who have reported nice improvement. Although the grungebuster2 or newer and improved "2007" version isn't going to provide a significant improvement with each and every player, it certainly performs well with the vast majority. If your CD player works just as well without a mat, there's certainly nothing to worry about. Although there are other factors involved, I believe the CD/clamping puck interface is the most significant, and it seems a floating puck would be less susceptible to vibration transfer. (You're still going to get some vibration transfer from whatever clamping mechanism is used under the CD, though, and mechanism causing the CD's spin--so component isolation with footers, internal chassis damping, etc. still has potential to bring about some improvement.) - - - - - - - - - Gotta hand it to Steve - he tries to be accommodating! Heck, at least he really seems to care! Jan - for years I've wondered at all the glowing reports from audiophiles who say they hear "marvelous, warm, wonderful, gleeful, amazing" things from various tweaks or gear. Sigh. With the exceptions of our collective cleaning glops and some wire upgrades - Mer and I have yet to hear ANY "better" sound. Maybe we're jinxed? Wonder if the liddle mats would make good indoor Frisbees? Hmm. . . . . respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1674 Registered: Oct-04 | All: very nice note from the Cambridge North American distributer - - -even though I've dug into the player, they will honor the warranty for any problem that can't be fixed with one of my simple-minded "fixes." Nice of them - and if it were not for some little details, I'd say that I'm super-happy with my player. Of course - there are things to do now to damp the cabinet, etc. You don't want to know. . .(double grin) LR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1675 Registered: Oct-04 | OOPS - forgot - the third generation of home-made "busters" are about ready to come out of the "oven." They'll be cut and tested and cleaned tomorrow (Wednesday) and then shipped to those who requested them. I think I may have two extras, if anybody else wants one. I'd even ship to Canada if need be - since they would slip into a regular letter and not be subject to armed-guard customs inspection. Sigh - this has taken its toll on me, I'm afraid. My player is in second-generation "revival," and my nerves are pretty shot. Mer says I need a "stereo vacation," and that's what I may take - for at least a day! (grin) Rope caulk. Did anybody mention that phrase? Stay tuned. . . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1189 Registered: Nov-05 | "We tried several times on four different discs. Nuthing. Nope. Nada." Now I await Herbie's mat with a LOT less enthusiasm, Larry! Thank goodness for Z6 - at least that does something nice for most cd's - so too does the black vinyl disc, but what a pain. Oh well . . . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9815 Registered: May-04 | . Larry - After a short vacation, it would appear it's time for you to begin your experiments with "the black vinyl disc"!!! The world awaits. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9816 Registered: May-04 | . " ... even though I've dug into the player, they will honor the warranty for any problem that can't be fixed with one of my simple-minded 'fixes'." Send them the n@ked transport in a box and see what reaction you get. Should be good for a laugh. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5958 Registered: Dec-04 | The wax rope is a gland, usually used for water lubricated seals. Square to fit the lands and square a shaft. Farm or industrial supply stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1676 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan - puh-leez! Enough, already! MR - sigh - hate to be the bearer of questionable tidings, but Mer and I really tried to find something good about the mats - and just could not. However - we are often in the minority. Even Jan said he heard "something" with the Herbie mat - so we may just be in the midst of some evil vortex or something! (grin) Got the discs cut tonight - will put all of the on the player - one at a time - tomorrow - and see if any of them give us Gold. Yeah, sure. . . Will send out the ones spoken for - and hope that your players are more friendly to them than mine was. I have new gasket supplies, so may try to produce yet another generation of the discs - some larger than the current ones. We'll see. . . Meanwhile - I'm thinking about rope caulk. Hmm. . . Respectfully . . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1677 Registered: Oct-04 | With (some) apologies to Herbie: Verne made the mistake of calling me this morning. That started a chain of events that has led to my new, if guarded, opinion of the Grungebuster theory. Having stamped out, cut, cleaned and tested my latest batch of black doughnuts, I was ready for a new challenge. Verne provided it. "You want to do something that makes a difference?" he asked. "Sure - anything, after the mat fiasco," I replied. He then outlined what he and three other engineer/nut case folk in LA had done to their CD players - and how it made them re-think some of their theories. Basically, Verne agrees with Steve/Herbie that vibration can rear its ugly head in many ways, on many platforms, with always-degrading results. Hmm - anyway, Verne has used a product that I know nothing of - "Dynamat" - to damp some of his equipment. But he says it's tar-like, and messy, and he always gets some where he doesn't want it. So one of his friends brought over his Pioneer Elite CD player - which had been "damped" with thick red rubber sheets. He said it was gasket blank, and that it was dense enough to stop micro-vibrations and low-frequency vibrations as well. OK by me - I'm over my head here. Longer story short - Verne and a friend took, in order, Verne's HK 47 and a friends Onkyo - and proceeded to glue red rubber damping in as many internal places as possible. He said they used ordinary bathtub caulk for glue - latex with silicone added, not pure silicone. The claim on the part of all of them is that this damping makes the sound fuller and less shrill. He urged me to do the same with the Cambridge. Never one to turn down a challenge - witness my experiments with Jan's Press-n-Seal - I got sheets of the rubber from Home Depot - and prepared for battle. I quickly found just how thin and tinny the Cambridge cabinet is - scary! It bends and dings with small amounts of pressure. Guess they have to cut costs somewhere to produce a $275 player. . . OK - as I didn't want to damp the upper lid - not yet, anyway, as I damp it with a bag of sand on top - I proceeded to cut and paste the rubber anywhere there were bare spots on sides and bottom. I damped around the outside of the CD player mechanism, and down the legs that attach it to the frame. Then - I let it dry awhile, put all back together, and prepared to see if Verne et all are crazy (they are) or if they have a good thing going. Well, I was pleasantly surprised! The sound on even my tinny chamber discs sounded more "grounded" and had a depth that was not there before. Plus - NOW I could hear a very, very subtle difference between a bare disc and one with the little black rings. Hmm. . .Not on every disc, but on about half, anyway. Hey - any little bit helps. However, the change was so subtle that I was never sure it was there. Mer has yet to audition. . . So - I guess there MAY be something to Herbie and his Grungebuster stuff after all - in some cases. I was ready to send out some mats - but I'm not super-happy with the surface, so will try for generation four later today - hoping for better-looking product! Will try to send out some by week's end. Respectfully, . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4119 Registered: Feb-05 | I've used Dynamat and have some out in the garage. I really don't like the effect it has most of the time. It's great for reducing noise in cars (it's most common use), but tends to deaden the music in home applications to an intolerable point. The only application I found that it was effective for was deadening the sound of transformer hum on my old PDR 12 subwoofer. I used it as a gasket between the amplifier and the cabinet. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1678 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: interesting that you should report that - friend Verne has basically hinted at the same thing with both dynamat and sorbothane - too much "damping." Can there be too much? Doing away with vibration, I should think, is prefereable to having some around to degrade accuracy of laser-read? Hmm. . . I think your comments are akin to problems we had when creating an announce booth at a PBS station for which I did some work years ago. They put so much sound-deadening on the walls and ceiling that anybody who spoke into the mic sounded as though something was sucking the life out of their voice! We ripped off half of the foam, and voila - a much better "presence" for the poor announcer! that's one reason the chaps out West are using the red rubber - solid, not foam - because it appears to deaden vibration without that "sucking effect" that sorbothane, etc. seem to have. Seems to work in the Cambridge, anyway! All this is making my head ache. I'm awaiting generation 4 of the pucks - and will see if they're any better than the previous batches. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1679 Registered: Oct-04 | Rantz: you still there, sir? Or have you passed out in frustration, wondering if your new and wunnerful Grungebuster will, uh, "bust" the grunge? (grin) Happy day to you and the missus, for sure! LR |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9824 Registered: May-04 | . Dynamat is pretty messy stuff as it is intended for use on the fender panels of that purple Honda Civic that goes by and makes your windows shake with one note "bass". I've used it inside speaker cabinets to good effect when it is applied sparingly and then a listening session is used to judge whether more or less neeeds to be applied and where. Because it is messy and heavy most folks I know have substituted Sorbothane sheets for Dynamat when damping CD players and enclosures. I don't want to get you too paranoid here, Larry, but the added weight of the Dynamat is not ideal on top of a transport. Sorbothane or PlastiTak is the better substitute IMO. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1191 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, I have passed out in frustration. Not because of anything here, but because I've been trying to rid my parents house of junk. It's like pulling teeth. They are moving into a tiny apartment in a retirement village soon and they seem to think they'll have room for everything. I have to be strong and say no - but mother gets upset. I wannna quit! Took note of all the above experiments - similar reasoning of my brother's tweak to pack all screws in the casing with good dollops of blutac, but it sounds like the matting might work even better. Herbie's mat is still not here and could be another week away yet - or more, but I'm not excited about it after your report. There's often a discrepency in postage time from your country as experienced in CD orders. And likewise the happy day to Mer and yourself, Larry. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1680 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: Your points are well taken, sir. Which is why I have a bag of sand atop the player - in plastic, wrapped in an old black sock so you don't easily see it. I've noted that sand is an excellent sound-absorber. . .and no, I'm not getting paranoid, Jan - just looking around for the "shining light." (grin) I've not - and will not - try the Dynamat. But friend Verne warns me away from Sorbothane for its super-absorbency. What's an amateur to do? (grin) M.R. - Good grief! Yep - I had the same experience with Mer's parents when they left the cold of Illinois for the rot of Florida - a large house CRAMMED with stuff, floors to ceilings. Sigh. Now, they live sensibly in a mobile home - without about 12,000 pounds of crud! Packing the screws? Not sure what that would do, but am always open to suggestion. . . For some strange reason the generation 4 mats are not drying - must be the different top cover that I used this time? Hoping for dry by morning - so I can assess them and send along the best ones to those who have requested them. Yes, I think the solid rubber mat is doing a good job. Verne warned me away from foam - not dense enough, he said. The rubber is pliable, easy to cut, and seems to make the case rock-solid. I'm sure you've read all the Herbies' mat glowing testimonials - sigh - but, like so many "tweaks" - there are people out there who hear vast differences in sound quality - or so they claim. Hmm. . . I hark back to what Jan posted re the Grungebuster, and take that as a good reference. But then, he claims some good things from plastic wrap tacked down to CDs, so. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . One thing to note: I have "hoisted" many a CD player, and have always found the Denons to feel, well, "substantial." Perhaps that added solid-build will give you less vibration than my Cambridge unit, which, although well-constructed, is made up of very thin and vibration-prone material. It weighs barely 5 pounds. (2.27 Kgs) And yeah, there's a lot of discrepancies in our country! (double grin) G-night - G-day from Swampville, Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1682 Registered: Oct-04 | FYI all mat-interested Dawgs - the generation 4 batch came out better - but I'm letting it thoroughly cure before cutting and stamping. I hope to send out samples tomorrow. LR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1684 Registered: Oct-04 | OK - for those who ordered some of my Insanity Mats, I've got them all wrapped up in letters, and they will go out in the morning mail. A total of eleven to Forum members and others, and this, my friends, is IT. No more mat-making! (grin) Remember that they are talc-coated to prevent sticking whilst in transit - so please wash off the SMOOTH side with soap and water - leaving as much of the talc as possible on the rough side, to prevent sticking to the upper puck. I hope that you find better sound improvement than I did. Sigh. Hope springs. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4146 Registered: Feb-05 | Insanity Mats...I think you're onto somethin'. Well I have started to clean the Zaino off of the CD's and oh my what a pleasant change. You should see what the Zaino looks like comin' off the discs...it ain't good. I'm getting a far more natural sound without...or so it seems to me. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4147 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm beginning to think that the real tweak here is the Dawn dishwashing soap...lol! Hey Lar good call. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1194 Registered: Nov-05 | Art, this is the clear Z6 optical enhancer and not the Z14 polish you were using isn't it? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4149 Registered: Feb-05 | Indeed MR. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1688 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: just what DOES the Zaino look like coming off the discs - I'm very curious! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1689 Registered: Oct-04 | OK, OK - I got freaked out by Art's comments on the Z-6 - and awayed to the kitchen to re-clean some of my discs. Warm water and liberal use of Dawn on a soft sponge, wiping in-to-out on the discs. Didn't see a lot of grunge coming off the discs, as Art hinted - but I DID notice that the overall reflectiveness of the discs seemed to improve when the Z-6 was gone. Hmm - how strange! I then went back into the den and cleaned some of the discs - again - with the Z-14, but NOT the Z-6. the discs resorted to their previous high-shine, but this time it seemed somehow "cleaner." Took out Mer's SpectrLight - which is a novel invention that allows you to see by various colors of light. The discs having the Z-6 still on them did not reflect as well in several parts of the spectrum, leading me to believe there's something afoot here. Does the Z-6 somehow change or degrade the sound? Can't tell - but will test many discs tomorrow night. Gee - I sure hope that my recommendations for this product have resulted in less than good sound. Sigh. Right now, I'm using ONLY the Z-14 on some discs until I figger out what is happening with the Z-6. Comments - anybody??? Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1690 Registered: Oct-04 | Let me restate: I hope that my recommendations for this product have NOT resulted in less than good sound. Ole scribes. . . . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4152 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry Larry, had family over for dinner...will comment more tommorrow. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 270 Registered: May-06 | Two possibilities and both reasonable. 1. Car wax yellows with age so why shouldn't the Z-6? 2. You rubbed the Z-6 onto the disc and it adhered to it like wax on a car, so when you strip it off why wouldn't it be like one of those TV commercials where you see the color "restore" to a vehicle. It is nothing more than stripping off the old weather beaten paint. So in a sense when you put the Z-6 on it did not clean the disc, you just put a protective shiny coating over the pollution that the CD accumulated from when it was cut to when the Z-6 was applied. Now taking the Z-6 off, it adhered to whatever microscopic particles that accumulated on your disc (cigarette smoke would be a serious example) and pulled the gunk off when you cleaned it off. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1691 Registered: Oct-04 | Michael, Art, et al: I'm thinking along Michael's line - but since I never have put Z-6 on a plain CD I don't know. I always used it AFTER I applied, and polished with, the Z-14 Plastic Magic. That must make a difference? When I cleaned Z-6 off several discs, there was no grunge or residue coming off that I could see, despite Art's comments to the contrary with his discs. IF the Z-6 doesn't first remove the mold release compound and other junk, but just covers it up, then Art's problem may, indeed, be one of grunge and a lack of reflectivity. Hmm. . . I think I'll try to find a couple of discs I've not treated with Z-14 - just use Z-6 on them and see what happens. BUT, again, Michael, you may be right in that the Z-6 does not age well. It is, after all, only designed as an "interim polish" to be used between regular car-waxings to keep up a shine. Michael - you may have solved Art's dilemma! And if so - nobody should use the Z-6 anymore - JUST the Z-14 - which, frankly, I like much better, anyway. Can';t sleep - as usual - so am working my through Art's problems instead. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4154 Registered: Feb-05 | Or enhanced reflectivity off of the grunge. Michael has hit on the point that I was going to make tomorrow. When we put on the Zaino we are adding a layer of junk between us and the music we love. When I removed it what I saw was a translucent milky looking substance that was not there when I cleaned an unzaino'd disc with the Dawn. The stuff is additive and the more revealing a system I bought the more I realized what it added was not good. I have cleaned about a hundred discs and have a few hundred to go. Tomorrow I'm afraid as it is bedtime tonight. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6001 Registered: Dec-04 | The various waxes 'age' with exposure to UV rays, much like anything else. Does the light emitted by the laser accelerate this process? The light is amplified(remember what l.a.s.e.r. means). Or the radiation itself? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1692 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, et al - Seems that you hit on the problem - though I can't seem to replicate it on discs that I first cleaned with Z-14, then with Z-6. We'll be off to a nearby town for the Met simulcast of Eugene Onegin - but tonight I'll try to find some untreated discs, treat them with Z-6 only, and then see what happens when I remove it. One thing, however, is that the Z-6 may act differently once it has been on the disc awhile?? Meanwhile - milky substance? Nope - I think Michael is right - the Z-6 just seals in the mold release compound, etc., and perhaps even degrades the reflectivity of the disc. Evidence your unhappiness with the sound, Art. I urge anybody out there who's using just the Z-6 to test-wash a disc or two - if the Dawn brings off some of Art's milky junk - clean the discs, and walk away from the Z-6!!! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1693 Registered: Oct-04 | One more point, please: right now I'm trying to determine if the Z-14 adds anything to the discs, like the Z-6 seems to do. It would appear not - and I have tried to re-clean several discs with Dawn and alcohol - nothing seems to come off. The Z-14 does, indeed, appear to clean and smooth out the micro-pores in the polycarbonate - but does not seem to add a "layer" to it. But I could be wrong..... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4155 Registered: Feb-05 | Problem with your theory is that some of my discs were first cleaned with Pledge. It's my belief that the Zaino is the problem. It's the layer between you and your music. After all what would it matter if you sealed in the junk, remember that the untreated discs sounded better to me. They would have also had the junk on them, it just isn't "sealed in", Meaning that the problem is the seal not the junk. Sorry guys but it's clear to me that the problem I was hearing was Zaino itself. The first time I spoke with Nuck on the phone about it I told him that the Zaino was changing something more about the sound than was the Pledge and I wasn't sure yet that I liked it. Audionuts (that would be me) often convince ourselves that because something sounds different that it sounds better. I should know better but over the past year I've done it more than once. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9849 Registered: May-04 | . "Does the light emitted by the laser accelerate this process? The light is amplified(remember what l.a.s.e.r. means). Or the radiation itself?" Didn't Marvel make a comic book Superhero with just this premise? I didn't think the Z-6 was a wax? If it is not, then the yellowing of auto polish as it ages shouldn't be the problem. I've never used the Z-6, only Pledge and Z-14, so I have little to contribute here. I hear no harshness or grain when I use those two products. . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1694 Registered: Oct-04 | OK, here we go. After an afternoon with the Met opera production of Eugene Onegin - I'm exhausted, but elated. Great simulcast! Jan: The Z-6 is a plastic, not a wax. Shouldn't yellow at all, unless kept outside in the bright sunlight. Art, et al: Sigh. I've now cleaned off many CDs that had first the Z-14, and next the Z-6 - and have NEVER seen the film that you refer to. Apparently, the Z-14 cleans the disc right down to the poly layer, and thus there is nothing for the Z-6 to seal in. I don't have the Pledge on hand, so can't speak to that at the moment. Sorry. Have treated several discs now with just the Z-6 - and am letting them "cure" overnight - will remove the Z-6 tomorrow to see if I get the gunk that you report. Hard to know at the moment. Yes - I think the Z-6 IS to blame - but only for perhaps adding some distortion to the mold release compound that it is not removing? Hmm. . . this is a serious problem to me, guyz - because I was the mope who recommended the Zaino products to you - and I feel deeply responsible. I do NOT think the Z-14 is a problem - but am deep into research on the Z-6 issue. Will report as I go along - with more apologies. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1695 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: VERY IMPORTANT. I need to know. did you spray the Z-6 directly on the disc - or onto a paper towel, then wipe it on and off the disc. Did you let the Z-6 dry on the disc, or wipe it off before it dried? All important info for me, please. LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4158 Registered: Feb-05 | I sprayed directly onto disc and wiped off before it dried. Check your email Larry. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1696 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: Sal Zaino suggested not to spray directly on the disc, that it might soften the top layer. Anyway - I have NOT been able to replicate your "sludge" upon Z-6 removal. But then, I sprayed the Z-6 onto a cloth, then wiped it on the disc. One note - I see little beads of something on the discs after I wash off the Z-6. Treating with Z-14 after that removes the "zits," and makes the disc much more shiny. I'm sticking with Z-14! got yer e-mail. thanx \ LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4159 Registered: Feb-05 | I am washing the discs under a halogen lamp. Sal Zaino told me that there is no way Z6 can cause any problem any way. My take on Sal is that he likes to talk just to hear his own voice but doesn't always pay attention to what he's saying. Then again he rubbed me the wrong way. In the end it doesn't really matter as all of my jazz discs are back to sounding great. I have 1681 titles on cd (until my next order comes in) many of them are multi disc sets, some as many as eight discs and I had treated about 25% of them. As you can see I have been quite busy the last couple of days. I like what the Dawn does well enough to consider cleaning all new discs with it when I get them. Anyone see a reason why that would not be a good idea. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4160 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW I consider an eight disc set to be one title. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1697 Registered: Oct-04 | Man, do I ever hate to be wrong, wrong, wrong! I know I didn't force anyone to use Z-6 - but I did suggest it, along with Z-14. However, I believe I said to use Z-14 first - am checking back to be sure. Right now I'm amazing poor Mer with my activities at the kitchen sink - going through my entire collection and washing them with Dawn and very warm water. Now - I have to decide whether to re-use Z-14 on them. I'm sold enough on the product to use it, but only on half of the discs. After a week or so I'll check them under magnifying lens and see if there's any difference. Sorry, but I have NOT been able to recreate Art's "grunge" layer. However, there do seem to be those little "zits" left behind - which disappear when I polishy the disc with Z-14. Discs also get shinier with the Z-14. Sigh. Where do we go from here? (to bed?) Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4161 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually I'll watch a couple of movies then go to bed.....(or fall asleep watching, ain't aging grand). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9858 Registered: May-04 | . "Man, do I ever hate to be wrong, wrong, wrong! I know I didn't force anyone to use Z-6 - but I did suggest it, along with Z-14. However, I believe I said to use Z-14 first - am checking back to be sure." Calm down, Larry. So far Art is the only one who hears a negative from Zaino. And it washes off so there's nothing you have to worry about. It's all an experiment that we took on by ourself. Until you've killed or maimed one of us, I figure it's all rock and roll. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6024 Registered: Dec-04 | Yeah, Baby! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1698 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: Don't think I've mained any of you - yet. But if you're one of the several Dawgs who ordered one my Insanity Mats - well, I warn you, these things can fly off and turn into deadly Ninja weapons of mess destruction! (double grin) I'm calm - at the moment - but eagerly await all reviews of both the IMs and MR's purchase of one of the "Grungebuster" mats. Hmm. . . Verne and colleagues will be testing six of the mats, on five different labels of CD players. He popped for Federal Express shipment - so he'll start the testing tomorrow (Monday) The "gang" also has one "official" Grungebuster mat to compare my Insanity Mats with - should be a hoot when these guyz start commenting! Still calm, Jan - but am working up to excitement level later today - the Oscar show, y'know! (double yawn, er, grin) Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4163 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep Jan I emailed a similar response to Larry. No one forced me to use the Z6 and it's reversible. In fact I've discovered my latest tweak...Dawn for dishes, it's not just for dishes anymore.... |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1699 Registered: Oct-04 | Hey - Art! You're missing out here, friend! I'll send you an Insanity Mat free - and then that can be your latest "tweak!" Or not. . . .sigh. LR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1196 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, we take these tweaks on under advisement, but the decision is ours. Personally I still think the Z6 is beneficial to my ears as is the Z14, as is the black vinyl mat - all to varying degrees. The last few cd's I've purchased have had only the Z6 treatment, though I must admit I believe the Z14 gives the disc a brighter reflective surface. I can't see (not doubting your results Art) how the Z6 would create a build up on the discs as it is a clear liquid and the residue after wiping on evaporates. It's got me puzzled. I would see the Z14 as a stronger contender in leaving something on the surface as it is an opaque polish, though again, it seems only beneficial to the sound. Anyway maybe Herbie's mat will show up this week and make all other tweaks redundant, though I won't bet the house on it. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6035 Registered: Dec-04 | Larry, is it too late for a pup to get an insanity Mat? I would like to try in each player. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4167 Registered: Feb-05 | Couldn't clean it off if there weren't anything there. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4168 Registered: Feb-05 | Remember that Sal Zaino is one of the folks who had suggestions for removing it...meaning he knows it's there to be removed. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1197 Registered: Nov-05 | Art, I only spray about 2 squirts onto a folded sheet of Viva paper towel and go around the disc twice with a little pressure spreading radially then watch as the residue evaporates. Maybe your method uses much more giving it a chance to form a barrier of sorts - I dunno! Maybe I'll try the Dawn too - in fact dawn has begun, back to bed for a few more Z's. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1198 Registered: Nov-05 | Art, what part of "(not doubting your results Art)" didn't you understand?  I believe you, I believe you, my friend, I'm just trying to work out why you're getting so much stuff of your discs. I'll see if Dawn is available at our local and give a try myself. What do you do with the disc after washing it with this stuff - do you rinse in ordinary water and wipe with a towel? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1700 Registered: Oct-04 | All: A long day here - 25-year friend died last night, and it leaves a cloud in the sky. Sigh. Anyway - I've been trying to duplicate Art's "grunge" when cleaning off Z-6 - and simply cannot. then, when I put it on, I - like MR - sprayed one little spritz on a paper towel, wiped it on and off immediately. If you spray it onto the disc, as I tried, it seems to "bubble up" and make some sort of mess. Hmm. . .maybe that's Art's problem? At any rate - it does wash off, contrary to Z-14, which does not succumb to the Dawn, and must need something stronger to kill it. Friend of Mer's came over today - an art restorer and a lady who finds art fakes, etc. Very bright, and full of good ideas. We talked about the CD problems - and, though she had no opinion on the cleaners, she DID have a strong opinion on JAN'S black-ink around the rim. She pulled out a couple of scientific instruments she uses for art-fake discovery, and we began to experiment. I wanted to know if putting black or green ink around the CD rim would block red laser light. Hmm. . . She said there were several easy solutions, and she got out a red and a green laser, and a "flat light" emiter, whatever that is. Plus, reflectometer and another instrument I'd never seen before. We darkened the room, and she took several discs - two with Jan's black marker on the rims - two with green marker on the rims - and two that still had my old "Stoplight" green paint on the rims. She shined the laser at angles to the disc, and watched as RED light bounced OFF THE BLACK MARKER AND AROUND THE DISC. Hmm. . . Then, to the green ink - which blocked most, but not all, of the laser-light. The only thing that killed the laser light was, tah-dah, the CD Stoplight paint. She then informed me that black markers can be made up with blue, green or red "black" ink - and that the traditional black marker uses red base. Thus, it will simply reflect some of the red laser light, rather than blocking it out completely. Interesting - I'm doing away with all my black-marker on the CDs! then we tried to "bounce" laser light off plain CD discs, with no paint or marker. On brand new discs, the laser did bounce around a little - but "sanding" down the outer rim with Green Scrubbie from 3M stopped a lot of the reflection. Her instruments failed to show a lot of laser "splatter" from a CD - we used her red laser at all sorts of angles to a rotating disc, taking the cover off my player and experimented with it. So, I'm not sure just how much validity there is in "tweaking" the edges of the discs. Then - on to the surface treatment. Her "reflectometer" told an interesting story. The new, untreated discs had one value - the discs treated with only Z-6 another - and the Z-14-treated discs yet another. She said the Z-6 had the highest "surface reflectance," but that the Z-14 seemed to clarify the CD polycarbonate, allowing us to see the under-layer more clearly. To me, that would mean that Z-14 would give a more accurate laser reading - but what do I know? She was a most interesting guest, and she taught me a lot about what to look for with various colors and clarity. Bottom line: For me - I'm lightly sanding off the black marker on the disc rims - washing them with Dawn, and re-cleaning with ONLY Z-14. If that makes a difference, I probably won't be able to tell. . .(grin) What a day - ups and downs - as ever. LR |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Extreme SQ FTW Post Number: 1671 Registered: Dec-06 |  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6038 Registered: Dec-04 | Larry, my condolances for your friend. My secondary condolances for your sanity. It's a cd, man. It's OCD, man. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 274 Registered: May-06 | Condolences also Larry. But between the engineers in California and folks dropping in packing laser light test gear, you travel with some interesting company! Then, I do speak with Nuck every now and then so I guess I have no room to talk............ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6042 Registered: Dec-04 | I heard that. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4174 Registered: Feb-05 | Very sorry to hear about your friend Larry. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1199 Registered: Nov-05 | Check email Larry. Well, Herbie's Grungebuster 2007 Cd mat has arrived, well packaged, with instructions, disclaimer, 90day money back guarantee and lifetime warranty. All very well, now we'll see just what this little thing can do. Will report back when I've come to a conclusion. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1701 Registered: Oct-04 | Thanks to all for condolences - sigh - I seem to lose more friends every year. fortunately, I've got some left! (grin) Michael - yeah, I've always traveled with interesting and off-beat characters. I seem to collect them along the way. the woman today has been working with Mer on fused glass, and how best to tell if various colors and weights are compatible. They often are not, and disaster ensues. As in wham-o, break-o. Tomorrow I'll be out there again, stripping off black marker and cleaning the discs. Think I'm giving up on Z-6 - will just use Z-14 from now on. Or, heck, I could go back to my initial glop: Walker's Ultra Vivid. Only costs about $70 USD for a small bottle. Nah, I'll stick with Zaino glop for now. (sure wish I knew what's in Verne's home-made stuff!) M.R. - if the Grungebuster doesn't help your sound, they make neat-o little Frisbees! Really. . . Can't wait for Verne et al to test my Insanity Mats - they are merciless in their criticism. Sigh. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1200 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay folks, the moment you've all been waiting for (ha!): Herbie's Grungebuster 2007 tests. I used clean untreated CD's on our NAD C542 #1 John Pizzarelli "Witc-hcraft" from 'Dear Mr Sinatra' (the CD layer) The hyphen is to get past the board's censor - believe it or not! #2 The Oscar Peterson Trio "Moten swing" from 'Night Train' #3 Jane Monheit "Honeysuckle Rose" from 'Taking a Chance on Love' #4 JJ Cale & Eric Clapton "Danger" from 'The Road to Escondido" #5 Amy Winehouse (those who know of her know she can use some cleaning up) "Just Friends" from 'Back to Black I used Herbie's Grungebuster 2007 CD mat on each of these titles paying particular attention to the above tracks. Here are the results: #1 - no difference #2 - no difference #3 - no difference #4 - no difference #5 - no difference Herbie's Grungebuster 2007 made no discernable difference in sound quality, good or bad, to my ears. It is a waste of money - for me. Next up, concentrating on the same tracks using various stages of my known tweaks: #1 - Witc-hcraft - used black vinyl adhesive disc size only. A slight increase in high end detail. #2 - Moten Swing - Used Zaino Z14 only. Cleaner high end detail, controled/cleaner bass, but only very subtle. #3 - Honeysuckle Rose - used Z6 about the same as above, but even more subtle. #4 - Danger - used Z14 followed by Z6 - cleaner sound, more dimension, better defined highs and bass - subtle but more than the last two tests. #5 - Just Friends - used the black vinyl adhesive, Z14 and Z6. The most obvious improvement of all tests, cleaner, more detailed and more depth, Again subtle, but worthwhile imo. Again I tried Herbie's mat on all of the above after their tweaks and again there was no audible difference to my ears. The above tests are not conclusive of anything imho, as there is no way of telling how much mould release residue (if any) had been left on each disc. But, as far as testing goes, that's it for me (except for the Dawn I guess). I'll most likely use some or all of the above tweaks if I feel the disc needs it. BUT NOT THE GRUNGEBUSTER! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1702 Registered: Oct-04 | MR: Oooooh, I love it when you write in all caps! (grin) Well, my friend, you have just replicated the great LarryR Insanity Mat test sequence. Congrats on getting the same Zero that I got. Double sigh. I AM most interested in one facet of your test, however: your claims to better sound with the black vinyl. Mer and I get better sound when stacking a black, blank CD-R atop the playing disc. Only problem there is that the player rejects it about half the time. Refer back to my link regarding tweaks on this forum, and you'll read about similar tests. BTW - just called up Herbie's site a few minutes ago - to find that he's phasing out the Grungebuster - and will now only sell his new Black Hole mini-mat. Hmm - does this tell us sum-ting? My Insanity Mats are the same size as his Black Hole mats - without carbon fiber. Interesting. . . For me, from now on: Dawn on every new disc, and then Z-14 only. I'll occasionally test the Insanity Mats, but so far, pfffffffftttttttttt. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1703 Registered: Oct-04 | MR: Quick question - do you know how your upper clamping mechanism works? On the player, not on you, personally. . .(grin) You'll remember that one of Herbie's claims was that it helped prevent vibrations from transferring from disc to clamp. If the Denon you have is like the Cambridge I have, the upper clamp just "floats" on the disc, held down with magnets. Thus - almost no chance for vibration transfer. In that case, the Grungebuster would be able to do just about nothing. Which it seems to do well. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1201 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry as far as I know the upper clamp seems to hold the disc - the one I had that lost some of its cd layer when I pulled the vinyl adhesive off actually got stuck inside and when I pulled the top cover off, it was still attached to the top clamp and I had to use a little force to pull it free - thankfully no damage done. I am yet to try the mat on the Denon 3910 but I think the result will be similar. It seems Herbie's mat will be getting more travel time. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1202 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay, I have tried it on the Denon also, but to no avail. I am sending it back to its home. It may well be of benefit on other equipment, but on mine my ears detected no improvements. No matter, it all sounds good anyway, and I was interested from an experimental point of view. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 107 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks for the report, and for perhaps saving the rest of us some time and money! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1704 Registered: Oct-04 | OK - awaiting first explosio...uh, reports on the Insanity Mats - some of which should reach some of you today. I'm just glad that MR is able to return his Grungebuster. Wonder how many of them WERE returned! As I posted last night, I read the latest Herbies web site, and it says the Grungebusters will be no more - that the Black Hole carbon/silicone rings will take over. We'll see what reviews come in on those. Of course, Steve/Herbie is NOT about to post any negative reviews, but AudioGon might. NUCK: Your Insanity Mat is in the mail - should reach you by mid-week? Give you something to entertain yourself for awhile. . . But if anybody thinks I'm going to make MORE of the mats - well, the name says it all. As in, no way. . . Good Morning call from Verne just now - saying that they await the FedEx Insanity Mat shipment today, and will hold a "mat party" this evening. Wish I could be a mouse in the corner there! Flat black acrylic paint - that's what Mer's friend says we should use on the disc rims if we want to stop laser reflection. Hmmm - CD Stoplight in a different color. Guess so - but no thanks for me, anyway. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1705 Registered: Oct-04 | Oh, yes - JAN - you'll probably ask how Mer's friend and I tested the laser in my player? We just took off the cover, and put in two CDs - bottom one playing side down - top one playing side up, so we could aim the laser across the surface as the disc(s) were spinning. In case you wondered. . . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9867 Registered: May-04 | . I obviously don't have the tools your friend has at her disposal but I tend to disagree with your findings and what they mean. I can take a simple red laser pointer and place it at a 90° angle in close proximity to the play side of a CD treated with black marker without finding any "light bounced OFF THE BLACK MARKER AND AROUND THE DISC". I'm not too interested in whether this happens when the laser is positioned at extreme angles to the surface of the disc as that doesn't replicate how the laser assembly inside the player operates. I don't disagree the specific color of the original Stoplight was chosen to minimze the scatter of the red laser but all I've ever read on the subject suggests the purpose of the edge marking is to minimize light which would travel through the disc surface and exit at the edge (as if the disc material were a fiber optic cable) and bounce around the internals of the transport. This is taken from the original Stoplight web page; "We discovered that during playback, that a significant quantity of stray laser light bounces around inside a CD. This stray light eventually finds its way back to the pick-up assembly, creating jitter. CD Stoplight was developed to passively reduce the the effects of stray light that ultimately causes jittar. By absorbing the stray light at the transport passively, rather than attempting to reduce it's effects downstream electronically, jitter is reduced at the source-keeping it out of the playback chain." While the AudioPrism people made a to do about their specific color of ink, other tweakers claimed the real significance of the edge treatment was in blocking light which would otherwise exit the edge of the disc and any light reflected back from any other color of edge treatment was picking nits as the laser was able to discriminate between the two sources of light. It was, afterall, focusing on a very small point on the disc. The Stoplight theory seems to be concerned with lowering the overall level of light inside the player, somewhat like turning out the lights in a room to increase the contrast of a video monitor. To that effect, any solid egde treatment should suffice. Would one color offer more "noise" reduction? Probably, but Stoplight is no longer in business and the approximate color of green markers are less available to me. Therefore, a permanent ink black marker is still what I consider a viable alternative. I see no light exiting from the edge of a treated disc and when the laser pointer is positioned in close proximity to the disc surface, as it would be while playing a disc, I see no light that I think should interfer with the laser's function. Your results may vary. As to the Grungebuster; "I am rather amazed at the comments made on Herbie's web page as to the total transformation some listeners claim." Everything I understand about the benefits of damping a CD suggest the better the player's transport, the less benefit will accrue from damping tweaks. I wonder what quality of player is being used by those who attribute transformational powers to Herbie's mat. If the player is so poorly designed that the mat does affect such a wonderous change, what is the rest of the system capable of resolving? Is it possible the owners have mnrely succumbed to a too bright system where anything that knocks the edge off the overbearing treble will be perceived as a benefit? In my experience with the mat used in my Denon 2900 the "improvements" are slight and not consistently present from disc to disc. Could I live without Herbie's mat. Certainly. Is it worth using for my $6 investment? I would say so. Its benefit is merely cumulative along with the disc cleaning and edge treatment. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9868 Registered: May-04 | . I'm confused as to the recommendation of flat black paint if black ink is not a suitable option. Is she saying opacity is the key? If so, I agree but find my permanent ink marker to be sufficient. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1706 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, Jan, I just post my comments, and those of others with whom I relate - and let y'all take with salt grains or absolute truth. Is OK with me. . . Verne and company got their pack, and are preparing to "do battle" shortly. For sanity's sake, they'll use only Verne's HK-47, a Rega Apollo, a Pioneer Elite and a Denon 3930. They've somehow "spidered" all into Verne's Adcom amp - which drives B&W 801D speakers. For CDs, they fought, but finally chose Pink Floyd Other Side of the Moon; Florestan Trio with Schumann piano trios; sound track from Good Night and Good Luck; and Ray Brown's album Soular Energy. Knowing them they'll order out for pizza and beer, so the test may not be all that scientific! (grin) But we'll see. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1707 Registered: Oct-04 | Uh, how about making that Pink Floyd DARK side of the moon. Sigh. Gettin' too olde |
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