Archive through February 17, 2007
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1141 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, Cambridge is not the only guilty party to use flimsy innards - especially in the transport mechanism. I believe Sony and Phillips stopped providing 'real' cd transports a few years back and now the majority of players use the DVD type movements. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4031 Registered: Feb-05 | I can't speak to how Vivid works but the effects of Zaino are clear. If it were interconnects or any of the above (minus the sunspots) it would not matter if I were using Zaino or not. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1617 Registered: Oct-04 | MR: After posting my woes to friend Verne in LA, he e-mailed back that I should not be alarmed - that many CD/DVD players have "barely adequate" mechansims to get the discs in and out, and to, as he put it: "site them." Guess he means set them on the clamping mechanism? Still, he suggested that, for my limited funds, either the Cambridge or a Harman-Kardon 47 would be best. As I know little of the HK, I'm a bit uneasy with that, so will stick with Cambridge. Art - still flummoxed by your reports of "glare" whilst using Zaino. For the record, sir, just exactly what is CD "glare?" I'm in the dark here - (oh, oh, bad pun) Now - to a sticky subject: Jan and his flim and his hints of grunge removal. It would appear that Jan is trying, with the film, to do what legions of stereophiles have been and are still trying to do with various "CD mats." Been doing a lot of reading on this, and IF Jan's film does, indeed, reduce vibration on playback, then he's in good, if esoteric, company. There are green mats, black mats, hard mats, soft mats, mats with holes, solid mats - and on and on. But the one mat that has caught the attention of the true believers is Herbie's "grungebuster 2" Basically, it's a 2-inch (5 cm) diameter silicone mat that you put on the CD before you put it in the drawer. Y'all have surely read about it - AudioGon has had many reviews, etc. Less than a mm thick, it, like most silicone, is rather "sticky" yet easily removed. Herbie claims it's 5-layers thick. Which, when I did a stack-it-up with Jan's film, is about the same thickness as five layers of Glad Press& Stick. Herbie claims it gets rid of whatever "grunge" is - such as hi-freq. distortion and bass wiggle, etc. Jan claims about the same - BUT - his product really does stick to the discs. Not good for me, obviously. What I would love to find out is: just precisely what does this silicone mat do? Oh, I read and read the glowing reports - but I guess unless I do the deed myself I'll never know. The grungebuster 2 - which, BTW, is claimed to be much better than the "old" mat - is smaller and supposedly easier to center on the discs. Now - IF the Herbie mat is just silicone, layers or not, he's making a decent profit at $20 per unit. I can get 1/32" silicone in sheets, 36 by 36 inches, (very roughly 1 meter) for about $58 USD. Using a cookie cutter, I figure I can get many dozens of "herbie mats" out of that square. Hmm - do I see profit signs on the horizon? Well - I'll be interested in any and all responses from y'all - and will keep on keeping on. . . respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4033 Registered: Feb-05 | Glare is the best way I can describe it. It's a kind of brightness that isn't really shrill but that causes instruments to sound unnatural, horns in particular. Guitar still sounds fabulous. There is a difference that I don't find sounds natural and is bothersome to me. It isn't on all of my discs just primarily the better recorded ones. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1618 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: Is this, perchance, the same sort of "shrillness" that I hear on the early-produced CDs up until about 1990? Almost like somebody turned up the treble controls? I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time with this, but I really want to understand. BTW - have you tried any such things as the Grungebuster mats? Jest wunnering. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9766 Registered: May-04 | . Larry - I'm a little surprised you are still interested in putting anything other than a CD in your new player. Here I thought you might upgrade your player and get better sound. I was looking forward to telling you the P&S tweak got you better sound in the long run. Oh, well, maybe next time. Read here once again; Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 03:22 pm. I have one of the small Herbie's mats and I would compare its benefits to the P&S. It does peel off nicely though. Much easier than the P&S which at best can sound like you're pulling a tire patch off a cat's shaved behind. In fact you have to clean Herbie's mat ocassionally to maintain the "stick". If you'd like I'll forward you my Herbie's mat for a trial run rather than spending $20 on something I bought for $6 a year ago. (If you read through the back posts on this thread, you'll see where I mentioned it made a slight improvement in overall quality.) As with the P&S, the effect is subtle on most discs. If the two-disc damping method continues to work for you, I would stick with that process. "If it were interconnects or any of the above (minus the sunspots) it would not matter if I were using Zaino or not." I don't think I can agree with that statement. The cleaning process obviously alters the high frequency balance of a disc. Interconnects could easily add enough in the same area that the overall effect might be perceived as too much. It certainly isn't out of the realm of possiblity that one tweak or change shows up a problem in another area or requires further adjustment in the system. As long as you're happy with an un-Zaino'd disc and we're happy with using the cleaners, I don't see a problem. One tweak is unlikely to work for everyone. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4034 Registered: Feb-05 | No Larry it's not shrillness at all. That's why it is difficult to explain. I'm sorry that I'm not doing well with this. It's more like the kind of sound you get when you rub plastic when it's wet. Kind of a squeeky sound that is added to brass, saxaphones, female vocalists, harmonica and the likes. Not sibilance....glare (sorry). "I don't think I can agree with that statement. The cleaning process obviously alters the high frequency balance of a disc. Interconnects could easily add enough in the same area that the overall effect might be perceived as too much. It certainly isn't out of the realm of possiblity that one tweak or change shows up a problem in another area or requires further adjustment in the system." Agreed. However I don't think that to be the case here. Chord is what the distributor shows this gear with here in the states and I've had and heard good results with it. Never know though... |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1619 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: I "think" I understand what you're saying. Sorry that the Zaino gives you fits on some discs - that I just don't understand at all. But then - this stereo thang has me constantly dumbfounded, anyway! (grin) Jan - thanks for the mat offer, but I'll pass at the moment. First, I've got to get a new player! You say you're surprised I'm not upgrading. To what? I don't think I've heard anything within even my top-end price range that's better than the Cambridge. Yes - the strange-but-true tweak with the stacked discs did make a difference - and one that Mer said she plainly heard. I'm thinking that my black disc is giving me the same sort of improvements that MR's black plastic gives him? And I will NOT go out and get some sticky black plastic! Nope. . . She said the instruments had more presence, and that there was a more realistic sound, with less sibilence. I agree, though I don't hear as much difference as she does. (what/s new?) I'll let you know what's happening - when I once again get a player. Sigh. No, double sigh. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1143 Registered: Nov-05 | I actually ordered Herbies mat last night. I figure with the 90day money back offer, the most I can lose is the postage cost. And seeing as how there were a few Aussies giving testimonials then it must be good, lol! If it works as well as the black vinyl then it will save some work. Maybe the black vinyl and the mat will curb my desire for a high end player (dreaming). I don't believe I'm fanatical about this, I just find the improvements (as varying as they are) both beneficial and interesting. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1144 Registered: Nov-05 | Jan, please tell us about the 'pulling a tyre patch of a cat's shaved behind' experience. And how it got a puncture in such an awkward part of its body in the first place. And how you re-inflated it and so forth. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9772 Registered: May-04 | . What happens in Dallas, stays in Dallas. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1149 Registered: Nov-05 | Well, okey dokey then pilgrim, but I'll bet it had something to do with your pointed, snake-skin cowboy boots! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1621 Registered: Oct-04 | . . .which is why Dallas has such a strange smell. (grin) Been there - smelled it. MR - Yeah, I've been thinking about the Herby Mat, and after Jan even offered to lend me his apparently un-used one I thought I'd wait until I get some more input on other people's use and reactions. "Glowing" seems to be a recurrent theme on the Internet, though I doubt that such a thing could possibly make a major difference. . . As I would NEVER doubt the word of a true-blue Aussie, I await your reviews of the Grungebuster 2. Meanwhile, once I get new electronics, I shall return to my humble black CD-R - which Mer says is quite an improvement on overall sound quality. Strange. . . Art: you are vindicated. Called my friend Verne in LA, and he backed you up on the "glare" issue. He claims it is a "hardening of the sound, especially concerrning brass and upper-register strings." Well, now - he claims that is has to do with jitter, but that your claims of sound degradation using treated discs must involve some other problem. Hmm. . . He uses a patented glop of his own design, and even in hi-end gear in the recording studios, he claims that the cleaning process helps to reduce, not increase, jitter. He has no experience with the Herbie mat - yet. But he did say that some of the broadcast-quality CD players he's worked with have a thin silicone mat on which the CD rests. May be the same principal? Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1154 Registered: Nov-05 | I've got no idea how long it will take to get here Larry, judging by cd deliveries from your country it could be anywhere between 5 days to three weeks. Rest assured I'll give you my thoughts. I am hoping it is as good as they say, as cutting out black vinyl discs and affixing them to the cd without creasing or bubbling is an art form and tedious. I'll be doing it no more until I try Herbie's mat. I'll try to get around to the black CD-R experiment one of these days. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4036 Registered: Feb-05 | The "glare" and sound degradation are one in the same as I don't consider glare an improvement. Problem is I treated several hundred discs. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9775 Registered: May-04 | . " . . .which is why Dallas has such a strange smell." To many people that's the smell of money. Old money and large quantites of it. I understand a journalist not being familiar with that fragrance. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1624 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: OOPS - guess you're stuck with degraded sound, eh? Jan: (doublegrin) you got it, sir! The only "old money" I've ever come in contact with is a coupl-ah dollar bills that once got stuck behind a dresser drawer, and were found when I moved years later. (grin) Now that it's too late - anyone have a CD player suggestion for me, other than a new Cambridge? Must be universal, though. . . Oh, well. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1157 Registered: Nov-05 | Now that it's too late - anyone have a CD player suggestion for me, other than a new Cambridge? Must be universal, though. . . Depends on how much you don't want to spend, Larry. lol! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1626 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - been doing a lot of reading - and talking with Mer - about replacements. She's all for us getting a quality player, but she knows nothing of the electronics. I see where the new Denon 3930 finally does away with the Faroudja chip - been a lot of controversy about its deinterlacing quality. The Cambridge DVD89 did away with Faroudja a year ago - better video. Frankly, I've yet to find a player outside of those above the $1,500 USD mark that might sound better than the DVD89. - so I bought one. A step up from the 87, yet - but only for video, the CD section is basically the same. Interesting to read several refs to the DVD89 having the same platform as the OPPO 970. Hmm. . . Am VERY interested in your report - when it comes - on the "Herbie Grungebuster 2" mat. I'm still having a hard time understanding this stuff about microphonics and all - but to my feeble mind, anything that makes the disc more stable on playback must have an impact on the laser-read. Jitter - I think that's what it all boils down to. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 800 Registered: Feb-04 | Larry, Are you considering the OPPO player? I've read great things about it. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1627 Registered: Oct-04 | 2C - Yes, I was considering it - still am, except all the reviews talk about its cheap case and CD drawer. Hmm. . .wonder about that. Got an e-mail from the Online merchant - DVD89 is currently out of stock. Drat! Still looking around, but I can't seem to find anything I like better than the 89. LR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1158 Registered: Nov-05 | With your quality NAD receiver and B&W's, all I can recommend Larry, is the 3930 which is practically the equal of the 5910 which here, is more than twice the price, but I don't know if you want to go that high money wise. This is the sort of player that does everything extremely well, cd, sacd, dvd-a, and top notch video. I'm sorry I didn't wait and save the extra for this although I am very happy with the 3910. If you were to go for a player of this quality it should last a lifetime (stress should). Couldn't Mer sell three paintings? [lol!] |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1629 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - sigh - I been tinking about the 3930 - but that $1,500 USD price tag is still pie-in-the-sky for me right now. With that in mind - let me tell you an incredible story. True, as well. Mer had set aside several bags of clothing for me to take to the charity Goodwill Industries. I added a bag of clothing of my own, and set off for the organization's headquarters. When I got there, I dropped off the clothing, and then began sort of rummaging through what others had dropped off - as I always do. Some good bargains there, if you look closely. Anyway, the woman who checks in the donations came up to the desk to report the latest check-ins. When she said they had a whole bunch of "hi-fi" stuff, I perked up. . . Well - long story short - I went into the back of the store, where a man had left behind five boxes of various kinds of stuff. First box - I found a very fine, if old, Blaupunkt radio. Plugged it in. It worked. I bought it for $10. Second box - I could not believe my eyes. There, on the top, was a Cambridge Audio DVD87! I almost missed it because it was black. Didn't know it came in black. Well, the woman didn't know anything about stereo, but she did know that the man had told her the player had been dropped, and did not have a power cord. Soooo. . . Anyway - dented cabinet and all - I gave her $25 for it. Really. . . the rest of the stuff was mid-fi at best, and I had no use for any of it. Brought home the unit, plugged MY power cord into it, and it sorta sputtered to life. The front panel didn't light up, however, so I was worried that I'd "been had." But when I pushed the "open" button for the CD drawer, it slid out nice and purty. I spent the next hour and a half taking the Cd mechanism out of my unit and transferring the "new" mechanism from the charity player. Worked like a charm - still works - and I have some spare parts! Sometimes I wonder about life - and its twists and turns. Sigh. Needless to say, I'm glad the other player was "out of stock." Mer is ecstatic that we saved a lot of money - and I have a new Blaupunkt radio in my den. . . End of story. . . respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5862 Registered: Dec-04 | Lar, sometimes stuff maybe happens for a reason! Good for you, that's a major scoop! Dumpster diving pays off! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 802 Registered: Feb-04 | Larry, Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!! (thumbs up emoticon here) ! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4040 Registered: Feb-05 | Laryy that's fabulous.....who woulda thunk it! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1631 Registered: Oct-04 | Maybe it was the penny I picked up (and rubbed for good luck) in the parking lot? Hey - who knows? Art: been trying like heil to figger out this glare thang, and how to correct it. In reading about the Herbie Grungebuster 2 - and MR's ordering of it - I came upon a bunch-ah reviews on Herbie's own site (grain of salt here) One - from Bobby Tam, of Salem, Oregon (hey - dat's close tah yu!) "A glare in the upper mids I believe was what I had, and your mat did the trick of suppressing it." Do I see another herbie's mat sale on the horizon? PS - the Cambridge is humming away merrily in the living room - crossing fingers. . . |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1632 Registered: Oct-04 | Forgot about "dinner" - in all my excitement, I forgot to say that our friends cancelled tonight's dinner party, so I have yet to test the black disc theory in their Denon. Maybe won't do it now - afraid it will get stuck! LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4041 Registered: Feb-05 | I have a Herbie's Mat on my turntable and it works great. I'll have to give the CD mat some thought. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1633 Registered: Oct-04 | Keep close watch here - MR ordered a Herbies Mat, and may review within a couple of weeks. . . Does the Rega have a CD holder where the disc sits playing side up - or down? Can't seem to tell from the pictures. If the disc sits playing side UP you'll have a much better chance of damping - plus, Herbies makes a special, slightly more expensive, stick-down, full-size mat for such machines. I'm waiting to hear from MR - because I'm still having a hard time believing that a tiny bit of silicone can make much difference. . . respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1159 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, what a fabulous story and I'm so happy for you guys - you deserve this stroke of luck (well I think you do lol!). I got word from Herbie and arrival of the little matt is due sometime between 2 and 4 weeks - snail mail! we shall see. Keep rocking DV 87 - er jazzing, aria-ing or whatever. Again, a fabulous story! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1635 Registered: Oct-04 | MR et al - old journalists lose their eyesight, among other thangs. . .in reviewing my player-find story, I realize I'd typed in the wrong price. I actually paid $25 USD for BOTH the radio and the player - 10 for the radio, 15 for the player. Good deal? Yep. . . Yeah, we could use a little luck around here. . . Art: I finally found some Online pics of the Rega Apollo with the top flipped up. I still don't know how the disc is clamped in place - I read something about three balls or knobs or something. Hmm. . .I can only assume that Rega has done a fine job of whatever kind of clamping they do. . .and oh, yes, I read another review (AudioGon, I think) that claims that the Herbie mat did away with "glare" on one person's discs. There's that term again - working on it. Had another talk with friend Verne last night late (LA being much earlier in the day) I expressed my consternation over the silicone mats and what they may do. He promised he'd "look into" it - but wondered, as I do, just how a tiny piece of rubber could improve sound. And he wondered even more about Jan's Press-n-Seal experiments. But Verne is into the science of recording, and thus does not suffer foolish tweaks, as he calls them. Sigh. He's a hard audience! I told him my "dumpster-diving" story and he was laughing so hard I thought he'd choke. He said he thinks the CD drawer mechanism on the Cambridge is the same as the Marantz - and probably a lot of other players, with some tiny changes. Hmm. . .he said not to worry about the "floppiness" in the drawer, that the actual disc-playing apparatus is the important part, and should be solid - as the Cambridge unit appears to be. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1638 Registered: Oct-04 | Grungebuster: hmm. . .being the eternal skeptic that I am, I e-mailed "Herbie" this ayem - and here's part of his explanation for the Grungebuster: - - - - - A spinning CD generates microphonic vibrations which transfer, via the clamping mechanism and physical connection, to the CD player's circuit board, microprocessors, capacitors, etc. Because of the microscopic size of the processors' circuitry, they are extremely vulnerable to distortion caused by microphonic vibrations. By reducing microphonic vibrations, absorbing some and smoothing out the erratic, acute nature of others, at the CD/clamping puck interface, the CD player's microprocessors, capacitors, and analog circuitry are less affected by microphonic vibrations and produce an output more true to the recording, less distorted. Some CDs, especially early on back in the eighties, are poorly mastered, and some glare and harshness is inherently going to be present. Well-recorded and well-mastered CDs, however, with microphonic distortions reduced during conversion from digital to analog, and in the output stage, perform very well. It's the microphonic distortion, not in the reading of the CD itself, but in the subsequent electronics, that causes so much of the "digititis" and glare, etc. that the grungebuster2007 CD mat reduces. - - - - - - - Not sure just what to make of that - but from all the glowing reviews, it must do something! However, I still question how physical vibration can translate into electronic distortion. Beats me. . . MR - I await your review. LR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1168 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, my brother has spoken to me at length about this subject. He has tightened screws, and damped certain areas with blu-tak in his Arcam CD player and swears to hearing improvements in sound quality. Any reduction of vibrations in the electronics of a player would be beneficial I would think. Vibrapods, cones etc, dampening with sorbothane, have all been well reviewed and generally accepted it seems, judging from many reports in the mags etc. Whether or not Herbie's grungbuster 2007 does anything, I will soon know. Btw, the cd in the Apollo goes label up. Flimsy draws don't really do anything to ruin sound quality (unless they vibrate for some reason) as the discs are lifted clear from them whilst being read. The draw on the NAD C542 is also quite flimsy, which I stated on a consumer review I posted on their website (and that they published to their credit). The draw on the 3910 is more robust and even has an anti vibration protein coating - so why the trouble if the disc is lifted clear during the reading I wonder? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4049 Registered: Feb-05 | Well just spent quite awhile comparing Zaino'd discs to unZaino'd discs. All the same discs that I have replaced recently and the difference is very clear and that I prefer the unZaino'd is also clear. Bummer because I have a whole bunch of discs that I used the Zaino on. The clear differences were in detail and naturalness of timbre. Much greater detail, subtle shading of notes on instruments and voices. Heck even the attitude and hence the intent of songs is changed by the Zaino. For instance on the Particia Barber album "Verse" there were a couple of songs where the difference was startling. UnZaino'd she sounded serious and sharp of wit, where on the Zaino'd disc she sounded light and witty (ask me later). Unnatural echo which detracted from detail on the Zaino'd discs. Bass was tighter, especially bass drums on the unZaino'd discs. I don't know guys the Apollo doesn't appear to like Zaino. Geez...wonder if the stuff can be removed. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1171 Registered: Nov-05 | You'll have to dip your discs in mould release compound Art [grin]. Although it's bad luck, at least the Apollo will save some work. Btw, has the reading problem been resolved? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4051 Registered: Feb-05 | It's really a software problem and itonly happens occasionally. I'm beginning to believe that it's normal. The more I read the more I hear similar stories and the folks are just living with it. BTW I have been calling car detail shops and asking if they know of any product that would safely remove the Zaino without removing anthing else (like the music...I omitted that detail). By the time I was done I was laughing my a.. off. The fellas were thanking me for turning them onto to a product they were unaware of and I was goin' on to the next one. It was too funny! I'm not going to get rid of my Zaino'd discs after all with my history we know that I won't have the Apollo forever. I will buy new copies of a few discs like my Holly Cole, Patricia Barber, and Shirley Horn cd's (someday). I am going also see if a Herbie's product might help. No more permanent tweaks for me...only easliy reversable one (sans the trip to the dumpster Larry...lol). |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 804 Registered: Feb-04 | Art, If you're up for experimenting, try using Novus plastic polish to remove the Zaino. I just used it to clean the acrylic dustcover of my new used turntable. The previous owner clouded up the dustcover badly with a window cleaner. The Novus removed the residue and also some light scratches. The dustcover looks really clear now. A 2 oz bottle costs about $3. It could be worth trying on an expendable cd. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 805 Registered: Feb-04 | It looks like some people have already thought about using Novus on cds. I came across this article after googling novus plastic polish. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0201/novus.htm . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4055 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm a bit afraid of polishes as they are usually abrasive...and I don't have any expendable cd's. Thank you for the suggestion. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1639 Registered: Oct-04 | Oh, dear - yet another CD polish! Sigh. Been thar, dun dat many times. Art: I doubt very much that you can "remove" the Zaino glop, because there isn't much of it on your discs! It cleans and fills in the microscopic "pores" in the poly surface - and to get rid of it you might well have to use stuff that you would not want on your discs! Welllll - today I was e-mailing back and forth with the Herbies mat chap - and he sent me the following after he touted his new "black hole" disc as maybe being even better than the Grungebuster. SIGH. - - - - - - the two are, materials-wise, quite different, though they accomplish basically the same thing. The Black Hole is designed to stay on OR transfer from one CD to the next. I have found it handy enough to just use the same one over and over again. Although the materials cost of The Black Hole is more than for the grungebuster2007, they are quick and easy to make, whereas the 2007 is quite laborious. So the price difference is almost entirely in the labor. Prices are based strictly on what it costs to make, materials and labor. Based on my experiences so far, I think it's a toss-up as to which mat is better. The Black Hole seems to have a slight advantage with details, the grungebuster2007 has "smoother" dynamics and perhaps superior tonal control. The Black Hole seems to "mellow" with age, however, ultimately achieving a smoothness and timbre equal to the 2007, with no sacrifice of detail--in fact the detail becomes better defined with more accurate timbre. The Black Hole also has an advantage with ease-of-use--you just about can't mess it up, whereas the 2007 needs special care and handling to keep it working in good shape. Time and customer response will determine The Black Hole's success compared with the grungebuster2007. - - - - - - - - - I give up. I don't know what to do or where to turn, and so I await any and all reviews. thank God Verne just called back whilst I was trying to post this message. According to him - and Art, you'll like this - the "least amount of surface contact with the CD disc the better. Thus, if you can follow the Rega Apollo lead and put three small amounts of silicone or sorbothane on the upper clamping mechanism, you might accomplish something. We have just tried this with one of our broken CD players, and have managed to put it together with the mod that I mention above. Our chief engineer on the project, himself a "modder" in his spare time, says it already makes a measureable difference, though his measurements are a mystery to me!" - - - - - Well, now - I'm going back to the pics of the Rega Apollo, and will try to figger out just what they mean by that three-point contact with the disc. Art - hep me out here - does the disc, indeed, rest on three liddle points, fingers or whatever? Tomorrow I'm going to dig into my secondary CD player, a TDK that needs cleaning anyway, and put three thin points of silicone on the upper clamping mechanism. Then, I'll see/hear if it seems to make any difference at all. Sigh. I know - I'm hopeless! (grin) Back to good old mono and the 50s- - - - - Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1640 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: OK, what exactly does this mean? If the disc rests on a three-point base, what holds it down? Please. . . - - - - - - The new player's transport holds the disc with a three-point ball chuck instead of a magnetic puck. That means the motor has less mass to spin, so the disc can accelerate and decelerate with greater ease. It also means that Rega's already elegant transport lid is now a single, undisturbed expanse of smoked Plexiglas--which looks very nice indeed. - - - - - - - - - The three-point contact is what fascinates me, and leads me to try such a clamp myself. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4057 Registered: Feb-05 | "does the disc, indeed, rest on three liddle points, fingers or whatever?" Nope, you push the disc over three spring loaded balls and into place. The disc is held in place by the spring loaded balls holding it firm to a small platform about the size of some of Herbie's little donuts. "a three-point, spring loaded gripping mechanism is used in place of the previous model's magnetic clamp, eliminating the clamp's additional mass while improving overall stability." A little snippet from the Positive Feedback review of the Apollo. "From puck to chuck The Apollo is built into the same casework as the Rega Planet, with one key difference: The new player's transport holds the disc with a three-point ball chuck instead of a magnetic puck. That means the motor has less mass to spin, so the disc can accelerate and decelerate with greater ease. It also means that Rega's already elegant transport lid is now a single, undisturbed expanse of smoked Plexiglas--which looks very nice indeed." Yet another from Stereophile. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4058 Registered: Feb-05 | That's funny Larry we were looking at the same thing at the same time. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1641 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: So - the three balls come up through the center hole? I'm really confused here. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4063 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes they do. Much like on some portable cd players. You have to press the disc over the 3 balls. So you have to spread your finger evenly so as to apply pressure evenly on the disc as the balls are evenly spaced arond a circular center. There is a platform about the size of one of Herbie's donuts, inside of it is yet another circular piece with evenly spaced spring loaded balls. You press the disc over the balls and onto the platform the size of the Herbie's disc. I know I'm making a hash of this but I'm trying really.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4064 Registered: Feb-05 | "inside of it is yet another circular piece with evenly spaced spring loaded balls" The evenly spaced spring loaded balls are around the perimeter of the interior circular piece. That makes sense (not). |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1642 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: Fascinating - must be an improvement over the traditional clamping mechanism. I'm stuck with mine, of course, but am taking Vern's advice, and will tear down the TDK player to see if the three-point stick-ons make any difference. What I'm searching for here is a mod to the player itself, so I don't have to mess around with applying stuff to the discs. Sigh. Gettin' old. . . . respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4067 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep I understand. I just to put a disc in the player and press play. It's about the music remember..... |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1643 Registered: Oct-04 | (yawn) Yeah, Art, I remember. . .to put out the garbage and go to bed! It's way past my ancient-man's bedtime. G-nite from Swampville. . .and thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1174 Registered: Nov-05 | We all say it's about the music, but if we are really truthful with ourselves (imho) it's more than that. Sure it's about music, but it's about music sounding as nice as we can make it within all types of constraints; budget, rooms, wives or partners - er, that about covers it. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 250 Registered: May-06 | Art, "Unnatural echo which detracted from detail on the Zaino'd discs"; how do you know it was unnatural echo versus extremely detailed? All, I believe the following; Anyone can be led to believe almost anything about the effect of a "tweak" based upon, not necessarily what they hear, but what their bias is to the source of the origination of the tweak. What I mean is if you have a "guru" telling you, or multiple sources of information depicting an end result you might be, just maybe, hypnotized into believing you are hearing something which does not exist. (Actually Art, this is not directed at you as I believe your audio acumen is well above average, certainly above mine.) Where tweaks are effective, and I also believe this is the purest way of identifying the real versus perceived result of a tweak, is if you the listener does not know what the tweak is supposed to provide for, but upon hearing it, identify its effect and then find out after the fact that is actually what the tweak was supposed to do. (Jan, thank you!) Any other way of validating the tweak (yes even a blind test, since you are searching for a perceived result) could be disingenuous and simply a physical response to hype. In short, one's expectations of what they will hear can color what they actually hear. Before I get blasted out of the water, I do not mean that one cannot identify that Yamaha with Klipsch is over the top, or that a change or upgrade in one's system did not provide a desirous result. If you tweak without an expected outcome you should generally be able to identify the benefit or degradation of such tweak. Reciprocally, if you are a non-believer in what a tweak will provide you might be predisposed to a negative experience. No, I did not learn that from watching a Jeff Foxworthy video. Who knows, I might be the poster boy for this theory as I believe I upgraded and tweaked myself into a wonderfully enjoyable system.  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4077 Registered: Feb-05 | As close to our reference as all those variables allow...in other words it's about the music....no... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4078 Registered: Feb-05 | "how do you know it was unnatural echo versus extremely detailed?" Simple....because there was more musical detail retrieved from the other disc... |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 251 Registered: May-06 | Note to self; Good Scotch turns you into a philosopher. Yikes. Since I am already out there I figure I might as well revisit my post to Art from a couple of days ago regarding glare and "Sun spots" among other things. The Old Dogs here have taught me about symmetry in a system. I really built something good with your genuine encouragement and education. Along this journey i realized that your upgrades, swap outs, tweaks, additions and deletions are pretty much experiments. The other thing I realized is that building a superior system is that things all fall into one of two categories, bright or warm. One extreme would be a system that most of us could only listen to for 30 seconds and then run away screaming to the other extreme of listening to a system and having a tear form in your eye for the individual who spent thousands to get a dull uninspired presentation of the musical reproduction. To me the ideal system is a balancing of the bright (think solid state) with the warm (duh, think tubes). However, everything comes into play as I identified a bit ago, components, interconnects, speaker wire, speakers, room acoustics and dimensions, floors, ground floor or not, etc., etc., ect. I have two experiences along these lines. One was when I swapped my Chang power line conditioner with a Monster Power line conditioner. I realized phenomenal over the top detail accompanied by an unacceptable brightness (or glare). I did not want to undo the change because I appreciated that the benefits out weighed the degradations. Instead I changed my interconnects and dialed down the brightness while maintaining the expanded soundstage and improved detail. On the flip side, when finishing my media room, I over installed Auralex and had too sterile of a sound. I reduced the Auralex in the room and started doing cartwheels. So Art, when you put Zaino on a CD and it works in your old CD player, but is bright in your Rega Apollo, it may not be the Zaino that is the problem. You may have been on the edge of glare for a number of reasons. Perhaps if you found a warmer interconnect you could still benefit from the extra detail the Zaino provided without the glare. That or an endless number of variables. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 252 Registered: May-06 | Art, "Simple....because there was more musical detail retrieved from the other disc..." I hadn't consider that, obviously. That is not initially intuitive to me, but even given some thought, I am unable to logically assign how Zaino would cause an echo that would be short of a rendition of "Row, row, row, your boat." I also am not challenging what you heard as I certainly believe there was an echo that you heard. I am flustered in my attempts to rationalize it outside of my previous post. My only grasp of an explanation is that the Apollo reads the disc 15 ways from Sunday before deciding how best to play it and... Sorry, for my own sanity I have to think it is something else, so therefore I am going to fall back on my previous post. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1175 Registered: Nov-05 | Well Michael, I don't believe the benefits I hear (which granted range from quite obvious to extremely subtle or none) by using Zaino or the black vinyl disc are psychological. How do I know - well, after I attached Merlin cables to both my C542 and my Denon 3910 there was absolutely no discernable difference in sound quality according to both myself and my wife (prior to these cables there was a difference - go figure!). I have a couple of identical cd's which we have played simultaneously on both players in sync with each other to test what we heard. After the Zaino treatment, the difference was there - and swapping players proved the point well and truly. That doesn't mean I'm not nuts though! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 253 Registered: May-06 | Rantz, I knew I should have included you with Art in my post as one of those with truly refined hearing. I suppose I should have added that there are those who have their audio acumen trained at a level that can detect a 1% change in speaker toe in and can easily identify effects of most any changes, no matter the influence. Still not convinced that there is not some level of predisposition. But my hat is off to you in that your wife shares your passion to such a level! Congrats. Sort of like having a wife who loves to golf. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1176 Registered: Nov-05 | Mrs Rantz does like music, and quality sound, Michael - up to a point. Beyond that she allows me my peccadilloes - well some of them. [grin] I don't believe I am one of those people 'with audio acumen trained at a level than can detect a 1% change . . .' I think my hearing is pretty good for my age but superears I ain't! Now, for some music for music's sake. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4080 Registered: Feb-05 | Michael, I'm afriad that you msiunderstand the problem. That's why It's been difficult to explain. Bright or shrill isn't the issue. There is simply a sound to the music that is not natural or organic sounding. "I am unable to logically assign how Zaino would cause an echo that would be short of a rendition of "Row, row, row, your boat."" Yep, but I learned long ago that there are a whole lotta things that I can't logically explain but that don't make them not so. Who knows....today I call Zaino and see if they have any brilliant ideas. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5896 Registered: Dec-04 | Talking about music is like dancing about archetucture. Spelling is optional. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 255 Registered: May-06 | Art, Don't worry about your ability to explain... Perhaps I should worry about my ability to explain when I am hanging around with Mr. Dalmore, a friendly sort of Cigar Malt Scotch Whiskey. After your last post I get what you are trying to convey. I was stubborn in my thinking that by not using the Zaino you were giving back what it provided to you, more detail, but M.R. and you have finally convinced me otherwise. I look forward to what the folks at Zaino say. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1644 Registered: Oct-04 | Michael, MR & Art: Good grief! Trying to keep up with youze guyz is like trying to outrun a jet! Michael: very interested to read that you have Carver amp and tuner - same ones I had before I sold off my great stereo gear some years back. Miss them. . . As y'all have gear that's quite a bit "up" from mine, I cannot hope to replicate your sound testing. But I also have a difficult time with Art's comments re the Zaino-treated discs sounding "worse" than un-Zainoed ones in the Rega. And taking Zaino OFF the discs - uh - don't think it's possible. Without harming the plastic, that is. . . The Z-14, especially, "digs into" the pores, and smoothes out the surface. To pull it all out, well, maybe possible, but I sure wouldn't try it! About the only thing possible would be some car paint cleaner, but again - on the plastic?? As I have not, and most likely never will hear what Art is describing - I cannot comment further. However - on the Herbie's mat thang: Art - with your different method of holding the disc on the mini-platter - I doubt that a Grungebuster would make any difference at all! It is designed to diminish vibrations to the upper clamping system - which your Rega doesn't have. Hmm. . .I'm thinking that more players should have similar setups! In examining my "old" Cambridge CD player this ayem, I note that the upper "clamp" may be mis-named. For it doesn't really clamp at all - just has a circular device that sits down on the top of the CD, with what appears to be some magnetic attraction. But no real pressure. also - it just rides on the CD, without any hard connection to the bracket, like bearings. Not what I thought it would be. Art: you would appear to have a much better "clamping device" with your REga's three-ball system. A true clamp. . .also, no connection to any upper bracket, so less vibration potential there. As for my system - I'm thinking three little bits of silicone attached in a triangle to the upper clamping disc - still some pressure on the disc, but almost no chance of vibration sneaking through the upper clamp. Your comments, all????? Jan: with your experiments, both with the Grungebuster2 and your Press-n-Seal - do you think the results come from cutting down on vibrations in the disc itself with the damping factor in the products, or is the positive result coming from a reduction in vibration transfer to the upper mechanism? In other words - do your products reduce disc vibrations while spinning and make for a more accurate laser-read? What I'm trying to get at is something that I can do without resorting to disc-coatings or mats, etc. And finally: Michael, while I hear and object to a harsh, cold "CD sound," I do not hear the differences in tweaks, discs or gear that Mer hears. I thus rely on her comments to "hep me out." What I'm looking for is something that will make a large enough difference that I can get past the electronic aspects and just disappear into the music itself, without coloration. Wishing. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4081 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry about the spelling...I type in the dark and since I don't type anyway it doesn't work out. Especially at night. Well I just got off the phone with Zaino. He was at first incredulous until I mentioned the Rega and though he didn't change his tune he then settled into a discussion. He started by saying that he sells Z6 by the gallon under a private label to the cd industry (which would explain why it has more effect on some discs than others...it has already been applied to some). He stated that Z6 has in his words "terrible durability" unless it's used with other Zaino products so I can buy any commercial CD cleaner that's safe for CD's and it will wipe right off. I'm not sure that I believe him but I will live in hope and next payday I will buy some well regarded CD cleaner and find out. Again to reiterate he stated that Z6 has terrible durability and can be cleaned off completely by any CD cleaning solution. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1645 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, Michael: You will find Sal Zaino a cheerful, helpful chap. I've talked with him a coupl-ah times. Jan, et al: Is Sorbothane similar in damping nature to silicone? I've got some very thin Sorbothane, which I will try on my TDK auxiliary CD player. Just want to know if it will do what silicone does. . . Sorbothane seems - to me - to be even softer and more, uh, gel-like than silicone. And finally - y'all have probably already accessed the Herbie site - and have seen his "latest" mat - the Black Hole. Sigh. Here we go again. . .new and different. Anybody for vinyl? (double grin) Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4082 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW Michael I was enjoying a bit of the malt myself last evening.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4083 Registered: Feb-05 | "You will find Sal Zaino a cheerful, helpful chap." I hope you are kidding...he was rude as hel...But hey I didn't care as long as I got the info I needed. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1646 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: Am I correct in that you used only Z-6, and not the Z-14 Plastic Magic? If so - yes, the Z-6 is quite expendable. Only use it after I double-treat my discs with Z-14, which really becomes part of the polycarbonate surface, and would be much harder to remove. Lar |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1647 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: paths crossed again. I'm surprised, because he and I joked and had a fine time on the phone. Maybe it's change-of life? (grin) |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1648 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: one more thing, please. Dawn dishwashing liquid - it will remove the Z-6, and also clean your CDs very safely. I use it. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4084 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep, Larry I only use the Z6. Perhaps he hasn't had his coffee yet...lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1649 Registered: Oct-04 | All: Z-6 was designed for the "show car" industry, and is only for use as an "interim" polish when the super-car guy can't get to or doesn't have time for a "real" wax job. Thus - it isn't supposed to be super-durable, just a stand-in product. Art - you luck out here! Good scrubbing - and please, I'm very, very interested in what you hear when you remove the Z-6. Will your Rega then sing? Quick reviews, please. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4085 Registered: Feb-05 | Well guys today is the big day!!! Soon I will be off to the Portland Jazz Festival. I will report when I get back. Here is the link again. http://www.pdxjazz.com/sch.php?type=headline We will be attending all of the headline events from 2/16-2/18. If you navigate the site you will see all of the educational opportunuties, rountable discussions, lectures and the likes as well as several dozen other smaller musical events. We will attend as many as we can. Wife was out from work all week sick and I was interviewing applicants in a small enclosed room with another interviewer who was so sick she could hardly keep her head up....wish me luck...I have tried to hold it off with tons of vitamin C. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1650 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: You lucky chap, you! Sigh. Wish I were there. . . And if you get a sore throat - go quickly to a health food store and get some Grapefruit Seed Extract - in the white bottle with red labeling. Gargle several times a day, about six drops in a half-glass of water. It will even kidd the strep crud - really. Been proven. Have a great time, old Dawg!!! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1651 Registered: Oct-04 | Ummm - will "kill," not "kidd" the strep. Talk about typing in the dark!!! (grin) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4086 Registered: Feb-05 | Here is the complete schedule...my wife is looking at me like I have 3 heads...perhaps I'm not moving fast enough this morning...lol! Thanks for the well wishes Larry. http://www.pdxjazz.com/PDXJAZZ_schedule.pdf |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1178 Registered: Nov-05 | Had a music evening and a few red wines (probably why I'm not sleeping) and one of the selections was a best of Bob Marley cd on which I had applied the black vinyl. Although my wife wasn't around to compare the before and after when I applied it, she did comment that it sounded really wonderful though would not commit to stating the difference (lol). As far as the Z6 goes, I can't see it alone doing anything permanent and should easily be removed. I think after an initial polish with the Z14, the Z6 is a great way to keep the disc surface sparkling clean. Anyway Art, I hope you solve the problem so you can enjoy that shiny cd collection of yours. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9786 Registered: May-04 | . " ... he stated that Z6 has terrible durability and can be cleaned off completely by any CD cleaning solution." Try Pledge. What have you got to loose? No time, will reply to some of the posts later today. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9787 Registered: May-04 | . Larry - Silicone and Sorbothane are both polymers but are quite different from one another both in their make up and most importantly how they do their job. Time for a search engine, Larry. Try "happy balls" and "sad balls". No joke. More later. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5905 Registered: Dec-04 | I tried happy balls and got an escort service. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4090 Registered: Feb-05 | LOL!!!!!!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5907 Registered: Dec-04 | And a shot in the back of the head from Helen. Whaaaaaat? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4091 Registered: Feb-05 | I find the Pledge difficult to remove completely. What about diluted rubbing alcohol. It was mentioned by Sal. Also I have plenty of Dawn dishwashing soap on hand (not literally). |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1652 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: Alcohol would work fine - just don't get any on the label side!! You'll be sorry. . . Try Dawn - it's worked for me many times, and is an "approved" method of general CD cleaning. Seems to do the best job of regular detergents I've used. Jan: OH, the old "coefficient of restitution" story, eh? Show-off. (double grin) Just wondered if you've used both, and as what. Thanks for the info - and I'm gonna try my thin sorbothane on my TDK unit - to see if makes any diff at all. It's hooked to my computer, though, so the sonic qualities of my reg stereo setup are missing. May have to take it into the living room. Still wondering if those Herbie mats will stop or reduce CD "wobble" or just help prevent its transmission to the clamp. . . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4093 Registered: Feb-05 | When I return I will try the Dawn first. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1654 Registered: Oct-04 | Rock on! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1655 Registered: Oct-04 | Art: I know you're out and about - but when you return home, think on this. I read about the Rega - and its computer brain and all. From the company: This revolutionary new player will analyse the disc to be played and (rather like the engine management system on a modern car which optimises the engine settings to ambient temperature, engine temperature, fuel quality etc.) will adjust itself to the disc in order to give optimal trouble free reading and great sound quality. This process takes a few short seconds and the resultant musical improvements are well worth the wait. Might the Rega be reading something from the treated discs that makes it "shape" the sound differently? Just a thought. Still puzzled over your comments re degraded sound. Unsettling. . . Just did a sink-test. From what I can determine, the Dawn liquid makes the Z-6 go bye-bye. After washing, the high gloss is gone and a sheen remains, so I'm thinking Dawn does it. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5909 Registered: Dec-04 | Larry, is this you or your evil twin brother? Great research, man! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1656 Registered: Oct-04 | This is Yrral, Larry's evil twin speaking. Research is my game - Yrral is my name. Go and sin some more. . . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4626 Registered: Dec-03 | Yrral, Ager Ollopo si ecin DC reyalp. I think "few short seconds" is spent working out the disc's format and choosing a level of error correction. Then the thing buffers the digital stream in RAM which is a way of dealing with jitter. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9789 Registered: May-04 | . " Jan Vigne Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 12:31 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Time for a search engine, Larry. Try "happy balls" and "sad balls". No joke. Nuck Posted on Friday, February 16, 2007 - 01:08 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I tried happy balls and got an escort service. Are you and Andre forming a comedy team to take on the road? If so, please, keep on taking it down the road. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9790 Registered: May-04 | . "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Sorbothane is a synthetic viscoelastic urethane polymer. It has wide industrial applications from acoustic shielding to cushioning in shoe soles. The material combines some of the properties of rubber, silicone, and other elastic polymers. It is considered to be a good vibration damping material, an acoustic insulator, and highly durable. An unusually high amount of the energy from a falling object dropped onto Sorbothane is absorbed." I've used both silicone and Sorbothane in different applications. There is silicone caulk around my tub. No Sorbothane there. Yes, coefficients of restitution are everything when you begin dicussing damping properties. Silicone is fairly low on the list of damping materials though it has a fairly high damping potential, depending on how its used. It all depends on what sort of silicone you are using. I use a light silicone grease or oil in an external trough as a damping fluid for my tonearm. By adjusting the paddle on the damping system the slow horizontal movement of the arm across the record meets minimal restriction. Any rapid movement, particularly in the vertical mode, such as resonance in the arm structure or minor warps in a disc is resisted by the viscosity of the silicone. One of the advantages to silicone is the number of viscosities you can use. Anywhere from a light oil to a foam or a solid material. Sorbothane is, as I understand, only useful as a semi-resilient solid. The selling point of Sorbothane is its ability to turn any vertical force acting on the material into heat and thereby damp out that motion. Sorbothane is substantially less effective at damping horizontal movement. Depending on just what piece of audio gear you are trying to "damp", Sorbothane can create the audible impression of too much damping thereby killing off the normally lively presentation of harmonics and ambience. Unlike silicone Sorbothane is not as consistent in its damping abilities over a wide temperature range. The clamping mechanism of the Rega is similar to the mechanics of the old Radio Shack cd3400 portable which had a brief life as a budget favorite about ten years ago. The transport was from a computer drive and claimed superior resolution by way of its unique clapming/damping properties. It too used the three spring loaded ball bearings around a very small (smaller than the Herbie's mats, just barely large enough to provide room for the ball bearings) center hub of the transport. It was a great CD transport, more so than a player. But it had a digital output which made it very useful. I had two (bought one, thought it good enough I bought a second) which I used as a transport feeding into a PS Audio SuperLink DAC. I used these until they both eventually broke and couldn't be repaired. Too bad, they were great little pieces of gear that performed well above their meager price. http://stereophile.com/cdplayers/480/ .} |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9791 Registered: May-04 | . "Sigh. NO MORE TWEAKS!!!! Respectfully. . .LarryR" Ahhhh, those were the days! . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5912 Registered: Dec-04 | The silicone used in your damper pot is measured in SSU, Jan. Sayboldt Second Units. The value of viscosity is considered alone, as opposed to values of restitution, where surface tension rates as a useful factor. And I work alone, thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1657 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan: your snarl could be heard all the way to Swampville. Talked with friend Verne, who said: "don't ever use sorbothane for any kind of damping - it sucks the life out of anything it touches." I told him I had thin circles of sorbothane under the CD player feet, and he just said "yank 'em off!" I did. Not sure if there's any difference. He likes silicone, however. But he uses a product called Dynomat, or Dynamat for his equipment damping. Don't know anything about it. I leave it to him. .. John A - hmm - me thinks this buffering may be the source of Art's unhappiness with Zainoed discs? But why should that be? I await his report on disc-cleaning and its effects on the Rega. Art: hope the jazz is wonderful! Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1658 Registered: Oct-04 | MR et al: Now that you're ordering one of Herbie's Grungebusters - I thought you ought to know that Steve also sells "grungebuster washers." Yep, silicone cut in a circle - you name the dimensions. I looked at 1 3/4" washers with 5/8" cutouts - they cost $3.00 each, USD. However, they are very, very slightly thicker than the Grungebuster2. point-8 mm for the washers, point-6 mm for the $20 Grungebuster 2. I think that's still thin enough so it would not clog up a CD player??? Don't know the difference in makeup, but it's probably not much different. And you can get 'em with pressure sensitive glue on one side, or plain. Hmm. . . Look under "System" on the Herbies menu. Steve (Herbie) was very high on his newest tweak, however - the Black Hole mats. Sigh. I await your review. . . LR |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4627 Registered: Dec-03 | Very nice review of the Radio Shack Optimus CD-3400 portable CD player, Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4628 Registered: Dec-03 | Stereophile: Rega Apollo. Transport manufactured by Sanyo, apparently. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1659 Registered: Oct-04 | John A - Thanks for the link - it clarified many things for me re the Rega. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4629 Registered: Dec-03 | My pleasure, Larry. |
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