buying an expensive cd player
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Bronze Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 88 Registered: Mar-05 | After as recently as two years ago having no real music system, I now have a 5.1 system for home theater/music as well as a 2.0 music system. They are: 5.1: Ascend 340se LCR, Ascend 170 classic surrouds, HK AVR 435-z, HSU VTF-2 MK2, Panasonic S97 DVD Player (also used for CDs). 2.0: Boston Acoustic VR2 mains, HK 3480-z receiver, Rotel RCC-945 cd changer (considering adding a small sub later). (skip to the last paragraph for my main question if don't want to read all this) Anyway, I love em both. Two different sounds each with some of their own unique strengths and weaknesses. The Ascends are beautifully smooth, clear, and harmonic -- particularly good for acoustic, jazz, classical, or soft pop. The Bostons have a very "big" sound to them with a vast soundstage and are particularly good for rock. I just recently acquired the RCC-945. Even though it is an older model I got it for very cheap and am very happy with it. I think it pairs well with the Bostons as it is very warm and laid back and tames them a bit whereever they might get harsh. My only complaint is that for jazz the horns still sound a little harsh, but I think this is probably the fault of the Bostons, not the Rotel. I realize changers generally aren't as good as single players, but a changer was really wanted in our house for our listening purposes, and for the money, I don't think you could get all that much better without spending considerably more on a changer (the RCC-1055, for instance). But if I'm going to get in the $500 range, I'd rather get a quality single-disc player. But even though I'm happy with it and plan on keeping it, I'm still left wanting a tad more for CD listening. So I'm considering getting an additional single-disc player and maybe puttting it in my 5.1 system (or putting it with the 2.0 and moving the Rotel to the 5.1). So I do the research, and consider everything. Nad c542, Arcam CD73, Music Hall, etc. But the more I read it seems all these have at least some major shortcomings. If I'm going to buy another player I want it to be *the* player for me, and I'm willing to pay for it. So I start looking at even more expensive models like the Arcam CD192. Even there I read some unenthusiastic reviews and details that turn me off a bit. But the one player which I basically have heard nothing but raves about is the Rega Apollo. Everything I read about it makes it sound like exactly thte kind of sound I'm looking for. Still it seems like a lot of money to me, but something in me almost wants to go for it to get that perfect sound. *BUT* my big question is-- is a Rega Apollo too good for my systems? In other words, would it's capabilities be wasted on my system and would I be better putting that 800 or so dollars into better speakers if I truly wanted better sound? The 2.0 system after all cost me only $880 total (everything retail though would've been about 1400). Probably answered my own question, but interested in others' thoughts. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3943 Registered: Feb-05 | It's a great sounding CD player and as Frank might say the source is critical. It's not really your speakers that are the limiting part of your system it's the receiver. With a good integrated and the Rega Apollo you would be surprised at just how good your Boston's would sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 89 Registered: Mar-05 | That's something I hadn't considered. What's a good starting point to look at an integrated setup? Rega or NAD I presume? |
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Bronze Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 90 Registered: Mar-05 | and how bout keeping the HK 3480 as a pre-amp? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3944 Registered: Feb-05 | Better off with a quality integrated than a quality power still limited by your HK. NAD and Rega are good places to start. Hopefully you have places available to hear this gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: NoutPost Number: 52 Registered: Mar-06 | My only complaint is that for jazz the horns still sound a little harsh Always or occasionally? Harshness is very difficult to eliminate completely In most cases it is the recording itself. Many pop and rock albums are deliberately produced/mixed like that, to add some raw excitement. And I haven't heard a system yet that absoultely never produces a harsh tone. Having said that: some more expansive systems are more likely to play without "digital artifacts", without edginess and grain. My cheap Marantz cd player for instance certainly lacks some fluidity and round delivery of the music. High pitched violins aren't necessarily harsh sounding, but with a strange vibrating edge to the sound, some sort of (non-musical) side timbre, clearly registred through all kind of different speakers and headphones, so it definitely is the cd player to blame. The Rega cd player you have set your mind to is much more analogue and round sounding and will definitely be an improvement in that respect, but I doubt if it will eliminate every single harsh sound recorded. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1592 Registered: Oct-04 | I tend to agree more than disagree with Art - and in this case, he's right on. First - if possible - go out and try to audition some players. Be sure to take YOUR music with!!! Then - if possible - go out and play around with some receivers. From what I read, and from what Art suggests, you might well be much, much happier if you buy both a new receiver and a CD or universal player. I can't afford hi-end stuff, but I do a LOT of reading about it, and have auditioned a lot of it. Sigh. Do you really want JUST a CD player? Or do you dip into SACD - and do you play a lot of DVDs that call for good sound reproduction? I have a NAD 763 receiver - have absolutely no complaints, and it sounds "golden." If - IF - I had the money I'd immediately order the new NAD M55. Yum! Read about it. If - IF - I had even more money I'd get the Rega Apollo CD player and a top-end DVD player. But I have a lot of SACDs, and a lot less money - so I get along rather nicely with my Cambridge Audio 87 universal player. Art is correct - get a better player and a better amp or receiver and listen to your speakers as they give you rather amazing sound. . . respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Bronze Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 91 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks Art, Nout, and Larry. Nout, I'd say yes I think most horns do sound harsh. I'll have to check one more time that it wasn't just the last recording I listened to. No the SACDs, Larry. I'm also thinking if I do upgrade I'm going to keep it in the 2-channel music system. I'm pretty happy with the HT as it is, so yeah I'm looking at a CD stand-alone at the moment. I don't think financially I could allow myself to upgrade both the receiver and CD player right now at the same time. But if I upgraded just the receiver, to say, a Rega Brio, would I get a pretty good improvement on that alone? Later on I could look to add the apollo, maybe as the used market price fell a little bit in another year. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3951 Registered: Feb-05 | The Brio is a great little amp. Just make you like the Rega house sound before you buy. I love it but it ain't for everybody. And yes the Brio would be a step up from the HK. Don't count out a Cambridge combo (integrated and cd player). See if you can listen to them, they really are great for the money. |
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Bronze Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 92 Registered: Mar-05 | I'll definitely have to find a way to check one out. I was a big HK fan ever since I got the AVR-435 and demoed it in my home on my Ascend system vs a Yamaha HTR (5860 I think). The HK so thoroughly blew it out of the water that I became an instant disciple, and I just presumed that I couldn't do any better than the 3480, although I'm a pretty big novice with this stuff. But I'm learning. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1593 Registered: Oct-04 | Nuttin' really "wrong" with HK gear - it's usually rather warm and fairly clean. Had a couple many moons ago. And one thing to remember - all this gear selections should be centered on a few decisions, one of them being "what kind of music do I listen to?" My gear fits my classical/opera/jazz listening very well. But my former (Yamaha) player did very poorly with the classical genre. It was fine for jazz - and probably would be good for pop/rock. Yeah, I'm a novice, too - a 70-year-old one, but none the less a novice compared with so many people on these Forums. This year my wife and I had to make the decision: finally get a good flat-panel TV for our beloved DVD operas - or spend the money on a trip back out to Santa Fe - for some wonderful LIVE opera, art and food fit for kings and queens. Santa Fe won. . . Priorities - ain' they a b-itch? (grin) respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Bronze Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 93 Registered: Mar-05 | I was looking at the specs for the Rega Brio and the Mira -- is there an output for a sub on these? I didn't see one. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3953 Registered: Feb-05 | Pre outs on the Mira, not sure about the Brio. Website should say if it has pre out if not call a local dealer or the distributor. |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 851 Registered: Dec-03 | If you use the computer as the source, you can get better performance for less money. There is less jitter problem this way, and you will end up with the sound comparable to higher end CD player costing thousands $. This sight has info on that. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1&ctg&0&50& |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1200 Registered: Dec-03 | Mr. T: I also believe that you will hear more improvement with a change in your amp than any other single change to your system. While I like the H/K AVRs, their stereo gear is not on the same level as their AVRs. I do think the H/K stereo receivers are a good value; nonetheless, they are not on the same level in sound reproduction as the AVRs or a good integrated amp. I do think the Rega integrateds are a good way to go, although I have my doubts that the Brio will have enough power for your VR2s--I seem to recall it is only 38 wpc, so you may need to try one out to see if it will work for you. The Mira is a fine amp that should work well with your Bostons, but here I must agree with Art that the Rega sound is not for everyone, You must try it with your speakers to know for sure. I also agree that you should look into a Cambridge integrated. I really like the new version of the 640A, and I believe it would be a great match for your speakers. Worth a listen. After you have solved the amp, then I would consider a good CD player. Either Rega or Cambridge makes a very good CD player, as well. Besides the Apollo, look at the Cambridge 640C, as well. But you may find that your Rotel is satisfying when mated with better electronics, after all. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6006 Registered: Dec-04 | James, there is no way that a pc disc player that does cd, dvd and burner will outplay even a modest cdp. The features of a sound suite(like the Creative Labs that I use) offer a lot of options, but initial jitter is rather higher in a pc drive, masked and altered by a lot of electris that just get in the way of the music. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 106 Registered: Mar-05 | I've posted some of my recent news in other places but this is probably the best place to consolidate this subject, since it's where everything started. To everyone who voted "new amp" I give my utmost thanks and respect. I received a Rega Mira 3 via Fedex on Thursday, and fell in love with it from the very first song. Hawk, I think you're right -- I love my AVR 435, but this Mira blows the 3480 to smithereens. The difference between the two is almost as big as the difference between the 3480 and some cheapo Walmart receiver would be. And I have to say I was very skeptical about hearing an improvement. I totally respect Art's opinions, for example, but deep down I thought this might be an example of a little bit of audiophile 'snobbery' on his part(sorry Art). But I couldn't have been more wrong. This was clearly the area to upgrade. However, not only did I purchase the Mira, I also bought a used Apollo. It just will not be arriving until Monday, though. What's crazy now is that the Apollo is what I originally thought I wanted, and I only got the Mira because it would "match" it (and had good power supply, remote, and preouts). Now, though, I'm so happy with my "piddily" 7 year old Rotel changer mated with the Mira that I have a hard time believing the Apollo can make a siginficant enough improvement to justify the cost. Because if I had had the Mira to begin with, I doubt I would have even been looking to upgrade. So, this should be interesting -- when the Apollo arrives Monday it's going to have to showdown with the Rotel, and it's going to honestly have to prove it's worth for me not to re-sell it as I am happy with the suond I'm getting now. Everything I *read* about the Apollo tells me it shouldn't have any problem doing this, but my newb audiophile ears are too satisfied right now to think it could get any better. BTW-- I sat down with my girlfriend to A/B the Rega and the HK just for the heck of it, even though after listening to the Mira for 5 minutes I knew it wasn't close. We listened to the Rega first and she was as blown away as I was, and, like me, believed hooking the HK back up to compare would only be academic at that point. Anyway, we did it and we were both right, of course. The Rega gave us our first dose of true "HiFi", as compared to just a very nice sounding stereo, if that makes sense. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4156 Registered: Feb-05 | Nice write up MT. Wait 'til you hear your Apollo...wow! It sounds like your enjoying your music and that's where it's at. BTW I've owned a Rotel CD player and the Apollo together with the Mira should have no problem earning it's keep. Enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6010 Registered: Dec-04 | Looking forward to that report, MT. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1201 Registered: Dec-03 | MT: Glad you got such as nice amp! Congrats. BTW, has the Mira tamed the "harshness" you were hearing before? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4637 Registered: Dec-03 | Really nice post, Mr Tomasulo! I've had an Apollo for nearly a year, now. It made a real difference, for me. Personally, I like the design and the interface, but some don't. There was a HiFi News review recently where the guy couldn't get used to it "initialising" for 10-15 seconds or so. I don't mind. The sound is worth the wait. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 271 Registered: May-06 | Mr. T, I had a Rotel, upgraded to an Apollo. No contest. Expect a similar listening experience that you had when you swapped the Mira in. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 108 Registered: Mar-05 | So anyway.... had the Apollo since Monday. Like it a lot. - BUT - Right now the Rotel puts out more bass. I say right now because although the Apollo came second hand it was advertised as having never been played. So assuming that's true it needs a lot of break-in/burn-in time. I actually ordered one of those "burn-in discs" to help this process along (not here yet). But anyway, I'll keep the Apollo for a month at least and break it in, and hopefully the bass fills out. If it doesn't, I might have to keep the Rotel for the cost. I'm running my system 2.0 and I wonder if I was running a sub if the deficiency would be less. That's not an option for me, though, unfortunately. The Apollo is definitely more detailed and clear, with a lower noise-floor. That's for certain. At this point though the Rotel is warmer and has more bass, and paired with the Mira it still sounds hard to beat for the money. The test has only begun, however. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4209 Registered: Feb-05 | The Rotel will put out a rounder and more full bass forever, that won't change. The Apollo will put out a tighter more accurate bass and that won't change. The Apollo continues to break in for months per nearly anyone who has owned it including me. Put the Rotel away for awhile and give yourself awhile to grow accustomed to the bass on the Apollo and also give it time to break in. Having owned them both I would be surprised if you didn't find the Apollo worth at least twice what the Rotel is worth. If you need to save some dough send the Apollo back now before you do become accustomed to the sound as only heartbreak can ensue. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1587 Registered: May-05 | Along the lines of what Art is saying (not trying to put words in your mouth Art), when you step up in quality, sometimes it seems as though bass gets rolled off. The truth usually is that bass is tighter, deeper, and faster (no perverse jokes please). In this instance, the bass isn't rolled off, its just not exagerrated like cheaper gear can be. I'm not saying this is the case, having not directly compared the two side by side, but I'd be willing to bet this is the cause of the 'problem.' |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4644 Registered: Dec-03 | I was curious and looked up the frequency response test in the excellent Stereophile review of the Apollo. http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/606rega/index4.html Unfortunately I can't find anything on the Rotel RCC 945 to make a comparison. Mr T, I agree with Art and Stu. You wrote in the first post "considering adding a small sub later". My first impression with the Apollo was that the bass was not more or less, but just a lot clearer than on the NAD DVD/CD player I used before. With the Apollo I could more easily visualize which bass instrument was making the sound. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 109 Registered: Mar-05 | I did mentin adding a small sub in the first post, but the Mira changed that. The Mira improved the bass substantially to the point where I didn't think a sub was really necessary for my purposes. I don't disagree with any of your guys' characterizations of the Apollo bass vs. the Rotel bass. The Rotel bass, while as Art says is more round and full, is definitely a bit 'cruder', not as refined, not as accurate. Still it *is* full-sounding and, to my ears, pleasant sounding. And I'm comparing the two purely pragmatically based on which one I simply *enjoy* listening to more - not which is the most technically accurate. A player can be "rougher" for me if it also thereby adds more "soul" and emotion. My gf and I actually a/b tested Tuesday night (probably way too early since the Apollo needs to break-in, but...) and the Apollo definitely won on some.... but the Rotel still won a couple of others, mainly live rock recordings -- specifically a Hendrix live at the BBC re-mastered recording and a live Pearl Jam disc. The Apollo clearly shined on smoother, mellower music - Marvin Gaye What's Goin' On and a Tori Amos compilation both won on the Apollo. (However, for some reason the Rotel still won on a Sarah McLachlan song we tested, too). But I went in wanting the Apollo to destroy the Rotel on *everything*.  Anyway, the burn-in disc arrived yesterday and I got it playing non-stop for a while. Also, I'm taking Art's advice and unplugging the Rotel and listening solely to the Apollo, for a while. We'll see how that goes. I could be falling victim to a trap I fell into during my first forray into car audio (story) - This was a while ago and before I ever even got into home audio. My very first after-market car speakers I bought were a nice pair of Cerwin Vega's purchased from Best Buy. They had metal tweeters and produced some of the sweetest highs I'd ever heard. I eventually changed cars and couldn't transfer systems so I had to get something new. I had a buddy who was very into this stuff and could get me good stuff at wholesale -- so he hooked me up with an all Phoneix Gold setup. Soft-dome tweeters and a completely different sound. He told me going in that these PG's would blow away my Cerwin Vegas (which he didn't have much respect for) so I was excited. He even held up a PG speaker vs a CV speaker and the magnets on the PG were about 3 times larger than the CV and just looked much more impressive and well-built, with more expensive materials. After I got them, they did sound good, but they were very different (at this time I didn't even know the difference between metal and silk tweeters), and a few songs that absolutely shined on the CVs werent quite as impressive on the PGs. Anyway, **long story short**, after living with them and listening to them over time I came to realize how good the speakers my friend had gotten me were, and that they *were* in fact better than the CVs. While the CVs always would sound better on those handful of songs I loved on them, I came to learn simply how much better the PGs were on everything else. Anyway, I may have fallen into that trap again. But my ears are open. We'll see. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4217 Registered: Feb-05 | Well said MT. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4219 Registered: Feb-05 | MT I forgot to ask and you probably already said somewhere...what interconnects are you using? just for the heck of it why don't you try the interconnects that come in the box with the Apollo. They actually work very nicely with the Apollo, better than many of the high priced competition. Just a thought. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 110 Registered: Mar-05 | Art- Sorry. Using a Blue Jeans cable right now. The guy who sold me the Apollo didn't include the cable but I was already still trying to get it from him. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloPost Number: 111 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, it's only been about 10 days. I've been running my burn-in disc continuously throughout much of the day and night. And, well.... I honestly don't know if it's my ears just getting used to it or if the burn-in process is actually making a difference, but the Apollo is now *killing*. I threw together a bunch of tracks for another comparison/test disc. I ran it through and listened on the Apollo first and then on the Rotel (which I hadn't listened to all this time) all the way through, and the Apollo pretty much demolished the RCC-945. Then I listened to a Johnny Cash compliation on both of them - I did this because I listened to it yesterday on the Apollo and thought to myself I had never enjoyed the actual sound off this disc like I was playing it on the Apollo (usually just like Cash for the lyrics). I wanted to make sure it didn't sound just as good on the Rotel. It didn't. The Apollo is very clearly showing its great superiority, and I'm really enjoying it, even if my wallet isn't. Thanks forum! |
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