I have had good results with the Naim Nait5i into 72s in a room 7x5m in size. It plays well until fairly loud, but when you push it the Naim obviously runs out of steam. By 'push it', I mean more than 12 o'clock on the volume dial (which is loud). So it is a good combination. Of course the 72 can deliver a lot more with more capable amplifiers.
I think the Arcam is a bit warm for the 72 which already has a big bass. I haven't heard the MF, but if it's anything like older MFs, it'll be big warm cuddly and go nowhere (not a fan).
More capable amps? In the context of my post I meant more capable Naim amps. Thinking of modern naim amps such as the 202/200 or forthcoming SuperNait. Alternatively, there's Naim's older Olive series such as the 82/180 which was always a favourite.
Other more powerful amps such as Avi's superb Integrated are also interesting, but it's a question of taste and budget. You obviously liked what the Nait 5i did for you, so bear that in mind going forward...
However, I'm in dilema whether I should go for Nait 5i or should go for Naim 200/220 power/pre separates.
The positive side I see of power/pre separates are - more power (as some people opined that to drive Dynaaudio Audience 72 one needs more power than Nait 5i), upgradability, more inputs.
The negative side being the cost. The 200/220 combo costs more tha double of Nait 5i.
So I'm bit confused. Though I can stretch a bit my affordability to go for power/pre I'm not sure whether that would be worth of more than double the cost of 5i.
In the UK, the 202/200 is treble the cost of a Nait 5i! The Nait 5i can drive the 72s. There is enough power there, just not a huge amount.
You have two more options as I see it -
Naim 122x/150x - this pre/power is about twice the price of the nait 5i, has the same power but a far better preamp stage. It has all the flexibility of the 202/200 but not the quality of course.
Naim have just announced a new integrated that sits above the 122x/150x which is called the SuperNait. It is more flexible than any other Naim in that it can take both digital and analogue inputs, it is much more powerful than the Nait 5i or 150x (80 watts as opposed to 50, which in Naim terms is a huge jump), it can be upgraded with an extra power supply and/or power amplifier. The SuperNait is more expensive than the 122x/150x, but cheaper than the 202/200 combination.
I have heard it on a couple of occasions and it seems to be a very interesting and exciting proposition. It is only just being brought out at the moment and dealers will still be receiving their demo units over the next few weeks. It may be worth your while looking at it.
Finally, if you have heard the Nait 5i with a suitable source driving the speakers and you like it, then provided it pushes your buttons that's all you need.
Don't forget that sourceis all-important in this game!
I was wrong in writing 200/202 combo more than double the price of nait 5i. It is actually 4.5 times the price of Nait 5i here in USA. Actually 122x/150x is almost 2.5 times of Nait5i's cost.
I checked out about SuperMait. The dealer told me they are yet to recieve it and as you rightly mentioned it is more than 122x/150x price.
So essentially my dilema is whether I should stick to Nait 5i or go to 122x/150x.
As you rightly mentioned most probably Nait 5i is the one I should stick to considering the price/performance ratio (power being the same only difference is better preamp stage). But my worry is about the upgradability. If later on I feel like going for more power or/and better quality I cannot do anything with Nait 5i.
Also regarding the source - eventually I'll use Nait 5i mostly for Vinyl. Have a plan to buy Rega Planer 3 next. Regarding CD player Naims's 5i CD player sounds great but it is very costly too (around 1.7K USD). Can you suggest any CD player which goes great with Naim but within 500 to 1K price range) ?
The Rega Apollo is the big dog in that price range, SM. Although... I find the Rotel 1072(or 1070, no hdcd)to present itself quite in line with the Naim house sound. Rather flat earth, up front and center, reliable(I dropped mine once) and very detailed. For your consideration.
SM, if you areable to try each of those, you must be near a good dealer or 2. I am presuming that you have a good relationship with a dealer, or you are building one. There is nothing more important (to me) than that relationship. A good dealership is where it all starts, and progresses from.
Don't listen to Nuck - he knows not what he talks about, the rat! I'm joking, ok?
The Rega Apollo caused a major stir last year when it came out. Rega have broken their records with this player in terms of sales which is saying something considering the popularity of the Planet when that came out. It's definitely one I would consider.
Another, if available in your area is the Creek EVO CD player. I haven't heard it myself but I know people who like it a lot.
In a sense this is the wrong way around to build the system. For the same money or less as an Apollo/Nait5i/Dyn72 you could have a Naim CD5i/Nait5i/Dyn 52 which would be a more musical result.
I just PM'ed you back. After seeing this thread, a few things came to mind. The Apollo sounds great with the Nait.
If money is a concern (when isn't it?) have you heard Rega gear? I was set on buying a Naim Nait 5i and CD5i until I seriously listened to a Rega Mira 3, Apollo, and R5 speakers directly against the Naim system. The Naim system was better to my ears, but the Rega system had the traits that I was looking for in the Naim system, and cost a good amount less. You may hear the same system and decide that the Naim system is far better and worth the price increase. Everyone listens for different things.
Fortunately for me, my dealer carries Naim and Rega.
1. I am in the process of building a relationship with the dealer. He seems to be bit high nosed - but surely knowledgable, has lot of options compared to others and tries to give honest suggestion (not pushy for higher price product). Overall I liked him but yet to get into the phase where I can get different gears from him and listen to them for somedays and then decide on the one I'll like to buy. 2. I didn't want to go for Dynaudio 52 as I don't like bookshelves. So obvious choice was 72 as the alternate to that. 3. Thirdly as I mentioned before I won't listen much CD (I mostly listen to Vinyls).Actually I'm sort of trying to build a system for long term in steps. First step being getting a pair of good speakers and a matching amp. Then I'll invest on a good turntable and later on may be in a good cd player. 4. I first decided on Dynaaudio. Then based on the amp choices (MF, Arcam, Naim - in the price range) the dealer has I found Naim Nait 5i is the most suitable for my type of mkusic. Now the question is whether to settle for Nait 5i for the time being and then exchanging it later on with Naim separates (as eventually I may have to go for it) or to go for the Naim Separates now itself.
There is a smaller floorstander called the 62 which the Nait 5i can drive easily. It's a good speaker too. Tomorrow, I'll try to remember to play with Nait 5i and 72s if I get a chance.
Firstly thanks a lot for all your inputs and suggestions so far.
I was not aware of this Dynaudio 62. It was never there with my dealer. When I asked for entry level Dynaudio floor stander they suggested 72.
If you can once try Nait 5i and 72 and provide you opinion that will surely help a lot me to take the decision.
However, with Dynaudio 72 have you heard 122x/150x before ? I'm seriously considering now whether to go for that pair.
In overall, the point I'm trying to find out is which is minimum amps setup one must invest in within the scope of Naim brand (I've now sort of sold out to Naim type of sound) to run Dynaudio 72 optimally (i.e. to do full justice to Dynaaudio 72's capability).
The 122x/150x has exactly the same power output as the Nait 5i so if one works, so will the other. Fact is, I know they work reasonably well up to a point, it's just a question of where that point is.
It seems to me that you are trying to put together a complete system and considering the source last in this game. If you do it this way, the end result is going to suffer since the speakers do what they're told by the amp, and the signal the amp amplifies is the one it receives from the source. So if that siognal isn't very good, then the mistakes get amplified by the better amplifier and they get reproduced beautifully by your very good speakers.
Therefore I tend to build systems from source to speaker. Given that you have nothing at the moment, it is well worth your while pursuing the relationship with your dealer, high nosed or not. I guess he probably thinks you're not really interested enough to actually go for a sale with him. I would walk n and say to him clearly what your budget is and ask for his advice in terms of how to build a system. He should be able to offer you more than one option. Also, the fact that you're talking $$$ should give him some motivation!! I'm not saying his approach is right, just how it can be sometimes with jaded old salesmen like me...
Excellent, Frank. Although I would like to think that the salesman would take any inquiry seriously, the fact is that there are a lot of tire kickers out there, that will not be upfront about their intentions. While the sales team are there for service and information, these people need to make real sales to butter the bread. Sourav, as Frank says, be sure that there is no miscommunication between you two.
Be sure that he/she understands that you have a check in your pocket.
Sourav mentioned that he's buying the speakers and amp now, and then he'll buy a turntable. Vinyl will be his primary source.
Sourav,
If vinyl will be your primary soure and you won't listen to CDs too often, you may want to start shopping around now for the turntable. But this I don't mean buying the turntable first; whichever piece you buy first is irrevelant. I mean find a system as a whole first, then start buying it piece by piece. For example, if you decide your final goal is a Rega P5 turntable, Naim Stageline phono stage, Nait5i, and Dynaudio speakers, then it doesn't matter where you start purchasing.
I guess I'm putting what Frank is alluding to in different words. Figure out the whole system - source, amplification, speakers - then start buying. Setteling on eone piece without consideration of the others isn't the best approach. You may get lucky and have a very cohesive system in the end, but you're not guaranteed by any means. If you audition a system as a whole rather than piece by piece, you'll know exactly what your end result will be. That'll be far more long term than anything else.
Firstly thanks to all of you for sparing your time in providing me the insights and suggestions.
Stu, I think you have cleared the confusion very well. It really does not matter much which piece one buys first. Rather one should first decide on the whole thing and then one can buy the pieces according to budget and convenience.
That way I'm sure I'll like to go for Dynaudio 72, Naim (Nait 5i or 122x/150x is still a question), Rega P3 or P5 (though P3 sounded good but I yet to audition P5 with Nait 5i and Audience 72 and then decide) and Naim CD5i (may be after a year or so whenever I save money for it). Now in my case I'm buying the amp and speaker first because I already have an existing CD player. So I can still listen to something in the new amp and speaker till I buy the Rega turn table (may be in another 3-4 months). If I would have gone the source first way, either I wouldn't have had anything to listen for next few months (even after spending around USD 3K) or landed up compromising with the quality of rest of the pieces (in other words buying something not of my actual choice) due to current budget constraint.
Let me first also clarify the dealer part. Though I said he is bit high nosed but it is never regarding his attitude towards me. It was rather on the fact that he is very particular about his own opinion. And in a sense that's what I liked also as he sounds honest. I've almost booked the system with him (so he knows I am a serios buyer not wasting his time). In between I got bit concerned by reading Franks's concern saying that I could have gone for a higher gear for Dynaudio 72. So I'm trying to figure out in this period (before the final shipment) whether I stick to Nait 5i or should go to next higher setup. The only point which is bothering me about the dealer is he is not open to provide me a chance where I can play with the system at my home for a day and then take a decision. May be this is not a practice here in US. Back in my country in India I used to get these favours from the hi-fi dealers.
Regarding communicating the budget to dealer, my perspective is though I have some budget (and a limit) but I can bit streach it provided that extra investment gives me long term benefits (so I need not feel like changing the system in another 5 years). So I always prefer the dealers (or any service provider so to say) giving me different options with varying budgets and explaining what are the long term benefits/trade offs in those options. Actually most of the time my concern is that in the long run I should not land up paying more.
Finally, Frank, it will surely help me a lot if you can run the Audience 72 with Nait 5i and let me know your opinion.
"Stu, I think you have cleared the confusion very well. It really does not matter much which piece one buys first. Rather one should first decide on the whole thing and then one can buy the pieces according to budget and convenience."
Exactly. The only other piece of advice I can offer is don't take this stuff too seriously. People get too wrapped up in it and forget what its really all about - having fun.
Another note. Frank's opinion on the pair will be just that, Frank's opinion. Remember, Frank has heard more stereo's than I have had wet dreams, his opinion and hearing is not yours or mine, Mr. Abella likely picks and chooses highlights beyond what I usually listen for, and listens beyond my ken.
Sourav, I am sorry to tell you that I cannot try the 72s since we sold the demo pair and have not replaced them yet. So I asked the others whether I was right in my assessment and the guys confirmed that the Nait 5i will be able to drive the 72s fine, but not to party levels. Below that it'll be good.
The advice you've been given seems good to me. Work out what your complete system will be, then buy the bits you need to get going. Here are a few pointers:
I like the old P3 a lot. However, it's in the process of being upgraded and that will be out in the next few weeks. In terms of cartridges, the best I would put on there is a Dynavector 10x5. Anything up to that in a P3 is well worth the money. Going above that is less avlue in my view.
The P5 is better than the P3 but to me it's a flawed record deck until you add the external (P7) power supply. This makes an enormous difference to the sound, far more than it should. The P3 is a good companion to any Naim amp, but it sounds to me like you have intentions of greater things. If so, you should go heavier on the source in my view. A P5 would be warranted here.
The Nait 5i is a great amp. The 122x/150x is a lot better, mainly due to the 122x as against the Nait's passive preamp section. The pre/power is more flexible and crucially can power a Naim Stageline phono stage. The Nait 5i can't do this so you would have to add a Naim power supply. The most basic of these is about $200. Of course, you don't have to buy a Naim phono stage. There are others around. One that I rate highly is the Dynavector P75. This has just been upgraded to MkII status and is alleged to be awesome. The original P75 is already very good indeed. The really nice thing about this stage is that it allows you to upgrade cartridge since it has variable loading and allows MC/MM switching as well as a special DrT mode which loads the cartridge dfferently. The downside is you have to outlay for an interconnect and a suitable one will cost money.
If you do go for the Naim amp I can't recommend using Naim's own speaker cable enough. I know it has its detractors but in my view it's the best overall musical result with a Naim amp. Many dealers prefer to recommend Chord Co. EPIC or EPIC Super Twin. This cable, and many others, provide more resolution and scale but they don't usually involve me as much as the Naim offering, which is what Naim ownership is all about.
Of course, as mentioned earlier, this is just my opinion, but you know and they know it's the one that really counts! ;)
1. "Nait 5i will be able to drive the 72s fine, but not to party levels. Below that it'll be good" - So the same would be even with NAP150 right (as that is also rated 50 watts) ?
2. " Of course, you don't have to buy a Naim phono stage. There are others around. One that I rate highly is the Dynavector P75." - Does that mean Dynavector P75 comes along with its power supply ? So whether I have nait 5i or 150x/122x I do not need to spend additional money (and extra box) for external power supply ?
3. "The P5 is better than the P3 but to me it's a flawed record deck until you add the external (P7) power supply" - Is the external power supply you mentioned P7 or TT PSU (costs around 400 USD) as mentioned in Rega's website ?
4. "pre/power is more flexible " - What all the flexibility one can get with this ? What I could figure out - a) later on adding a hicap2 for the pre-amp, b) more inputs, c) option to only upgrade the power amp to 200 if needed. Anything else you can see ?
5. "If you do go for the Naim amp I can't recommend using Naim's own speaker cable enough." - Point noted. Let me discuss with the dealer.
Again thanks to all of you.
Stu - I don't agree with you in not taking these stuffs seriously as lot of money is envolved. I'm bit audio fanatic and many a times go beyond my capacity (thanks to my wife who has always provided me support in thsi matter) if it makes sense. But at the same time I don't want to invest in something which does not have long term value. Frankly soeaking all of your inputs/suggestions cleared up lot of other omportant things to me about a good audio system.
Per a third party source (how reliable is that???) who is presently in possession of the new P3 it is better than the old one but not by a long margin. The biggest upgrade is RB700 wiring but there are other worthwhile upgrades as well. For a person reading this and wondering if the improvement is worth upgrading from a presently owned P3, my source says no. Only sensible upgrade from the present P3 is the P5 and P7 both of which have stiff competetion in their price range.
The way the new P3 was summarized to me is that it's performance with the external power supply comes up just short of the stock P5 and that the P5 with the external power supply blows it away. Also an inference that I made was that the new RB301 is a sort of budget RB700.
What wasn't clear to me was whether the new P3 much like the P5 as Frank referred to will suffer the same issues as it's bigger sibling when not paired with the external power supply.
1. Yes, the 150 has similar drive capabilities to the Nait.
2. In fact the Dynavector power supply is an extra but it is a very small extra whereas the Naim one isn't. Most external phono stages have a power supply as part of the bargain.
3. My mistake! TT PSU is the correct name for it, but in fact this is the one that comes with the P7 as standard.
4. Flexibility. The 122x has more inputs, can power a Naim phono stage directly (no external power supply), has an AV unity gain passthrough mode for compatibility in surround sound systems, can be upgraded with external power supplies (flatcap 2x is the natural match which can also power something else like a CD5x CD player or phono stage at the same time). Once that is added you can do other things like upgrade the preamp or power amp or add more power amps (unusual, since you usually want better rather than more of the same)
Yesterday night I got the shipment. And even with the fresh out of the box sound I'm sure now I've not made any wrong decision. I'm very much satisfied with the pre/power combo, it is surely sounding more pure, detailed and musical compared to Nait 5i. In overall to me it is the best amp/speaker combination I've every heard (and have owned so far)for my kind of music.
Power wise I neither have any issue. Currently I'm not able to go beyond 25-30% of the volume. So I'm sure there is plenty of power still reserved if I need to play it in a bigger room.
Still have to work little bit on the speaker setting to extract the best in my home acoustics condition.
Again thanks to you all for your inputs/suggestions. It helped me a lot to take the final call.
glad to hear it. Now I know you probably know this, but theamp will take some 200 hours to burn in. Best to leave it on and preferably playing music at low to medium levels.
Also, for line level sources like CD players, 50% (i.e. 12 o'clock) is about the maximum. Beyond that, you start to get distortion. However, if you're using a lower gain device such as most phono stages, then 3 o'clock is about as loud and that is LOUD.
As to speakers, if they're the Audience 72s, start with them quite close to each other (say 5 feet apart) and facing straight forward, no toe in. Then move them around. Usually I get a better result if I do not toe in Dynaudios.
I'm joking, ok?