Distorted s's and t's
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi I have a pretty modest setup, and I am very happy with it except for one thing. In about half of the records that I listen to the s's and t's are very exaggerated, and before I play around with my turntable alignment I figured I would see if anyone on this forum can help me to figure out the problem. I recently purchased the Eric Clapton and JJ Cale album and this problem is pretty obvious on this album. My cartridge is aligned to the manufactures specs. I am using the following equipment. Marantz 6300 Turntable (original headshell tonearm etc...) Grado - Statement Platinum Moving Iron Cartridge (.5MV output) Music Hall MMF Phono Pak Kenwood KE-205 7-band stereo graphic equalizer Harman Kardon Avr 340 Receiver Klipsch SB-3 Bookshelf speakers Klipsch KSW-12 Subwoofer Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mike |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9715 Registered: May-04 | . The first thing to recheck is tracking force. Make certain you are within the upper region of the specified tracking force range given by your cartridge's manufacturer. (If you aren't absolutely certain how to set tracking force, don't mess with the setup and come back here for instrcutions.) You should also thoroughly clean the stylus, using first a stylus cleaning brush (such as Discwasher's version) and appropriate fluid and, should that not solve the problem, moving to a more abrasive cleaner such as the flint from a book of matches. If neither of those solve the problem, you will have further investigation to do. Who set the table up and who aligned the cartridge? With what sort of protractor? To the table's spec or which manufacturer? How old is the stylus? I assume not very given the type of cartridge you own. Has this problem always existed or has it developed recently or been made worse recently? What sort of stylus cleaner have you been using? What sort of record cleaner? Is the problem worse at the beginning or end of an album? Is the problem in both channels or predominantly just one channel? Have you played with any of the settings on the table since it was originally set up? Any idea whether VTA is correct? Does the problem exist only in the phono or also from other sources; CD, DVD, etc.? . |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1906 Registered: Sep-04 | My main concern would be VTA. Check that the cartridge is level (horizontal) when playing. If you raise or lower the arm at the back you should resolve some of the sibilance. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Jan Vigne Thanks for your quick response. Here are the answers to your questions. 1. Grado suggests that the tracking force for this cartridge be set at 1.5, and I am certain that I have set it correctly. 2. I aligned the cartridge, I didn't use a protractor, it has been aligned according to Grado's specs. 3. This cartridge does not have a removable stylus, and the cartridge has maybe 30 hours of use on it. 4. The problem has been ongoing and is even present with a new AT440MLA cartridge 5. I have never used a stylus cleaner, and as for a record cleaner I use the Discwasher brand. Before every record is played I also use a carbon fiber bush. 6. The problem is pretty consistent throughout the album and through both speakers. 7. I am fairly confident that the VTA is correct. 8. I only hear this problem when listening to vinyl |
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank The cartridge appears to be horizontal when playing. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9723 Registered: May-04 | . If you have no protractor, how do you do the alignment "to Grado's specs". The arm length and geometry determine the stylus alignment. You should be using a two point protractor. Scan down the main Phono page until you find the free alignment protractor offer. You can print out a protractor that will get you started toward proper set up. Be careful to print out the protractor in the proper scale. Grado, like all cartridge manufacturers, suggest a tracking force range. Setting the VTF too light will cause your problems. http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/ttsetup.html You need a stylus cleaner. The heat and downforce of the stylus tracking the groove will contaminate the stylus with crud very quickly. You need to effectively remove this if you expect the system to operate properly. Buy a stylus cleaner. Also put the Discwasher in a drawer and use it only for a quick clean up of a record you picked up at the Goodwill store. Discwashers do more harm than good by wetting the disc too much compared to the amount of fluid the brush can pick up. This creates sludge in the groove that further contaminates the stylus. If you can't afford a vacuum record cleaner, try a wet method and wipe the disc dry with a microfiber cloth. Then let the disc air dry before you play it. Very quickly, here's the instructions. Get three or four microfiber towels form the auto supply shop. Fold two large terry towels into two squares slightly larger than your records and set up shop on the kitchen table. If your records are from the second hand shop, you might want to have a third and fourth towel for the second side of the record to sit on. You're going to clean the records on this surface so keep the surfaces as free of contamination as possible. Mix a small amount (about one cup at a time) of the following; 7 oz. distilled water, 1 oz. 92% isopropyl alchohol, about five drops of a clear, enviromentally friendly dish or laundry soap (I use All Free laundry soap). You can do away with the alchohol if you prefer as it serves little purpose other than as a drying agent and some people don't like alchohol on their vinyl. The distilled water and soap alone should do the trick. Place this solution in the microwave for about 45 seconds to get it just warm, not hot. Start with side one of each disc to make it easy to know where you're at in the cleaning process. Thoroughly wet the disc keeping water away from the label as much as possible. Just wipe the label dry if it gets wet. I use a spray bottle to dispense the water/soap. However you apply the fluid, get the disc fairly wet. Fold a microfiber towel into a pad and "scrub" the grooves in a circular motion around the disc. You should feel the fibers following the record groove. Scrub about one third of the disc at a time and then move on to the next one third. Go in both directions on the disc, back and forth. Finish one side with a sweep around the entire disc in one direction and then back in the opposite direction to make certain you haven't got a line of dirt stuck in the grooves. Move the disc to the second towel and rinse it well with only distilled water. Dry it, in a circular motion, with another microfiber towel and then set it aside to air dry in an upright position. A dish rack keeps the record upright and shouldn't harm the disc. The disc should look reasonably dry when you are finished and when the cloth no longer picks up water, stop cleaning for this session. (Wash the cloths with a few drops fo the same soap before using them again.) Refold your cloth for each record to get a clean surface on the disc. When the record is completely dry, give it a play. This is by no means a subsitute for a vacuum machine but will pick up most of the crud and leave a clean record if you follow the procedure described. http://www.discdoc.com/p14.html . |
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 7 Registered: Mar-06 | Jan I have attached a picture from the Marantz 6300 manual. This will explain how I came to believe that the Cartridge was aligned correctly. I was unaware that an alignment protractor would still be needed. Grado does not suggest a tracking force range, they simply state in the paperwork that came with the cartridge to set the VTF to 1.5. I will print out the protractor to realign, in addition to the other suggestions that you have made. It is very hard to find people who are knowledgeable on this type of equipment these days. I appreciate all the suggestions that you have made and will keep you updated. Thanks Mike |
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Marantz manual image could not be uploaded Here is a link to the manual http://www.vinylengine.com/library_model.php?make=Marantz&selected_model=6300 Please see fig 4 on page 7 |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1913 Registered: Sep-04 | 1.5gms is about right for a Platinum as I recall. Jan is bang on about the need to align the cartridge. If the arm has slots in the headshell, you need to know where to place the cartridge, and that is defined by the arm's effective length. You also need to ensure the cartridge body is sitting square to the record when playing. It may look right but a) the Grado body is deceptive and b) even a millimetre out means you have a significant angle which could affect the sound significantly. You need a protractor to get it exactly right. 30 hours isn't very much time to run in the Grado. However, since the sibilance is present with both cartridges you've tried, it sounds more to me like this is an alignment issue. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1914 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, I've just read the manual and it says you should have a 45rpm adaptor with markings on it so you can setup the cartridge in the headshell. Have you used that method to set it up? Are you sure that with this in the right place, the cartridge body is dead parallel to the headshell? I notice that the anti-skate instructions tell you to set the anti-skate dependant on the tracking force. In my experience different cartridges require different anti-skate which has little to do with the tracking force (shouldn't be, but is). Use this method instead: get a record which is less cherished than most and which has a relatively wide lead-out groove (the centre portion without music). Place it on the platter and start the deck spinning. Cue up the arm so the cartridge will drop in the lead out section of the record. Lower the headshell so the cartridge drops between the grooves in the unmodulated area. Now, since the cartridge is literally just skating on a flat surface, any forces are due to skate. If the cartridge catches up with the groove (i.e. swings to the centre of the record), then not enough anti-skate force is applied. If the cartridge swings back towards the outside of the record, then it has too much anti-skate applied. You should get it so that the cartridge drops and waits for the groove to catch up to it. If the standard anti-skate settings don't give you enough weight to play with (possible), then a small blob of blutack on the weight will help. If you have done all this, then maybe it's just the deck which is not to your taste. The Grados are not sibilant cartridges. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 9 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank I have used my 45rpm adaptor to set up the cartridge on the headshell, and it is positioned correctly, however I will now use a protractor to verify if it truly is correctly set up. The Grado cart has a strange shape to it so it is hard to tell if it is parallel to the sides of the shell. When I get home tonight I will try play with the ant-skate weight. I am sure that the cart will not drop and wait for the groove. Thanks for the help. Mike |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9730 Registered: May-04 | . If the cartridge body is oddly shaped, use the front of the cartridge to ensure parallel position to the headshell. If the headshell is parallel to the protractor, then the cartridge should be set parallel to the protractor and, in turn, to the headshell. I don't know what your skills amount to but I generally draw a few extra lines parallel to those on the protractor to make set up a bit easier. You'll need a good straight edge and a ruler marked in mm's, both of which can be found in any home supply/hardware center for a few dollars for the size required (a 6" steel woodworker/carpenter's ruler makes a good double duty item). Use a pen with an extra fine tip. (If you've never done this before, it helps to tape a dime under both ends of the straight edge to raise the edge above the paper. This keeps the ink from running under the straight edge and smearing on the protractor.) If you have access to a T-square and a drafting table, you can get the lines dead on. Before you go to all this trouble, are you absolutely certain the tracking force is correctly set? Whether or not Grado suggests a certain VTF, I would still try a range slightly above the 1.5 grams VTF. As with most things phono, VTF is a dynamic function and it will vary somewhat depending on temperature (and a few other factors too arcane to mention here). It is difficult to expain without a visual to go by, but the deflection of the cantilever is how I normally set VTF. As the cartridge settles into the groove, there should be a certain amount of give in the cantilever when the VTF is correct. Too light and the cantilever barely moves. Too heavy and the cantilever looks as if it will collapse. Somewhere in between is where the correct VTF is found. Try taking the VTF up to two grams and listen for a difference. (And do your experiments with an old record you don't care about.) I always hate to disagree with Frank, but in this case I would solve the tracking problem before I changed the anti-skating. Tackle one problem at a time or you can get lost in what you've changed. Since the sound is problematic in both channels and across the entire disc surface, I would tend to rule out anti-skating as the problem here. You might not have the arm set up correctly for anti-skating, but I would address that after I got the sibilance under control. You did read the set up articles I linked to; didn't you? . |
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New member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 10 Registered: Mar-06 | Jan Vigne I did read the links that you posted and they helped me to better understand all the fine adjustments that are needed in order to achieve the sound I am looking for. I will first make sure that the cartridge is mounted correctly. I will then adjust the VTF based on your suggestion and I will then make sure that the Anti Skating weight is positioned so that the arm isn't pulled towards or away from the center of the record. I am confident that once all the adjustments have been made correctly that I will achieve the sound that I am looking for. The Grado cartridge that I have, received great reviews, now it is just a matter of setting it up correctly. I will post again as soon as I have made all the appropriate adjustments. Thanks for all the help. Mike |
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Bronze Member Username: Wasserman12Post Number: 62 Registered: Jul-06 | I hate to be tedious, but could someone describe in a bit of detail how you clean your stylus with a matchbook flint? It sounds like one could easily cause damage if it was done incorrectly. I'd appreciate it- I haven't cleaned my stylus since I got it about 6 months ago. Jan- do you recommend a particular brand or type of microfiber cloth? thanks, as always, for the great info |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9751 Registered: May-04 | . Any microfiber towel will be better than a terry cloth towel. But, I would go to an auto supply shop and look in the wax and cleaners area. You'll probably find a selection of microfiber towels there and some will be not be wrapped in plastic. I pick the ones that "stick" to my fingers when I touch them. Maybe you're hands aren't as rough as mine but I can almost pick some of the towels off the rack just by running my fingers across their surface. If you are uncomfortable (shaky hands) with the matchbook flint, I would consider whether I really wanted to do this. If done correctly, you will not harm a diamond stylus but you can mess things up if you're not careful or you do it to the wrong stylus assembly. You must know whether your stylus is n-u-d-e mounted to the cantilever or bonded. You should not proceed with this if the stylus is merely glued in place (a bonded stylus). If you've decided you can try this on your stylus, here goes. Trim the flint of the match book so there is no cardboard outside the edge of the material. You want an edge of only flint on the side you will run across the stylus. Standing directly in front of your table, clamp the arm down to its rest and place the flint at an angle to the stylus. (The stylus is cut at a 45° angle to conform to the record groove.) Most of what you are trying to remove usually sticks to the top of the stylus where it joins the cantilever. Have the volume on your pre amp up just enough to hear what you are doing (it will sound like you are tearing the stylus off the cantilever). Pull the flint slowly toward you keeping its surface close to the stylus. Do not clean the stylus with anything other than a back to front motion! Two or three passes with the flint on each side of the stylus should get off most vestiges of crud. This procedure is for the nastiest bits of junk that stick to a stylus and should not replace a regular cleaning with a stylus brush and fluid. In fact, if you haven't cleaned your stylus with a fluid and brush, this method might easily make matters worse. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Wasserman12Post Number: 63 Registered: Jul-06 | thanks again Jan- So, prior to the abrasive method I should use a fluid cleaner. Is there one you recommend? Is there a home-made system such as the above described record cleaning system? Why is it that the flint method could make matters worse on an unclean stylus? Thanks again for all the help- |
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Bronze Member Username: Wasserman12Post Number: 64 Registered: Jul-06 | Also- Can a dirty stylus cause more damage to your records? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9756 Registered: May-04 | . A dirty stylus won't damage your discs, it's the stuff that comes off the record that's on the stylus in the first place. It can cause mistracking, however, so it's best to keep the stylus clean. I clean my sytlus at the end of each listening session. If you run the flint over this crud from the disc without cleaning the majority of the easily removable stuff first, you could just smear the crud over the stylus rather than cleaning it. Kind of like taking a dry rag to the junk on your windshield. You can use plain isopropyl alchohol on a stylus but a real stylus cleaner ussualy does a better job. The brush does the majority of the work. It should be quite dense and really wrap around the stylus as you clean it. Discwasher made a good brush and their cleaner was decent. Elusive Disc or Music Direct both have a selection to choose from. http://www.elusivedisc.com/departments.asp?dept=134 http://www.musicdirect.com/products/search.asp?cat_id=ALL&man_id=ALL&advSearch=s tdSearch&search_desc=no&keyword=stylus+cleaner As I said, the brush does most of the work so buy a good brush and don't spend a bunch on the fluid, it's 95% alchohol. If you asking if you can DIY a vacuum record cleaner, yes, you can. Put "DIY record cleaner" in a search engine and I'm sure you'll find a few sites that explain what's required. The guts of the unit amounts to a $19.95 wet/dry shop vac. It's the other stuff that keeps you from screwing up your records that amounts to the rest of the cost. I bought a Disc Doctor from Audio Advisor for $199 and it was worth the money vs. the hassle of putting together a DIY project. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Wasserman12Post Number: 65 Registered: Jul-06 | I have some anti-static cloth thats used for cleanign film- think that'll work? it's not nearly as fine as the microfiber stuff, but it apparently eliminates static. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9763 Registered: May-04 | . How does it go about eliminating static? By way of something left behind on the surface after you wipe with the cloth? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5849 Registered: Dec-04 | Guys, the recommendation are in response to fairly specific questions. If you fail to follow the rec's, then all the best, you may find something else. However, closely following the rec's and procedures would be in your very best interests. Damn your interests, the quality of your GEAR for goodness sakes! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1918 Registered: Sep-04 | Heh, lemme disagree with Jan a bit!  First off, Mike, always finish all the setup points (VTF, VTA, Anti-Skate, etc.) before listening. It's the combination which give you the sound. 2nd, I never use a wet system to clean the stylus. One never knows what's in that stuff. I also don't use flint. I just see that as scraping the tip without getting to the places where the crap builds up. I use either an electronic stylus cleaner or a stylus cleaning brush. That said, I have been told by my colleagues that Lyra SPT, which comes with an excellent stylus brush, is meant to be very good indeed, if not exactly cheap. As for cleaning records, I use a Goldring eXstatic brush most of the time. This has a combination of carbon fibre and velvet brush. I don't like purely carbon fibre brushes because the carbon fibre can bend and you can inadvertently scratch a record if you bang the end of the brush against the surface. The eXstatic brush avoids this. If the record is in a real state (e.g. you bought it at a 2nd hand shop or in a market), then you'll need somethign stronger to clean it with. I use Permoclean by Milty, but only for badly soiled records. If you suffer from problems with static, as I used to, then Permostat is fantastic stuff and does not seem to have affected the sound of the few records I have treated with it. All available on the web. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 11 Registered: Mar-06 | JV/Frank I have just ordered stylus cleaner, and it should arive by Friday. Mike |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1935 Registered: Sep-04 | What did you order Mike? |
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Bronze Member Username: PynkfloydPost Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank This is what I ordered. http://www.needledoctor.com/Last-4-Stylus-Cleaner_2?sc=2&category=1086 After I properly aligned the cartridge I noticed a big difference in sound quality, I'm sure the cleaner will make further improvements. I would like to thank both Frank and Jan Vigne for all the great advice, I really learned a lot. Mike |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1940 Registered: Sep-04 | Thanks Mike. I don't know the Last as I've not used it. |
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