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New member Username: DdgunterPost Number: 1 Registered: Jan-07 | Hi, Hope it's ok that I started a new thread for this question. Didn't want to barge in on someone else's question. In any case.... I currently have a NAD 2240PE Amp and 1240 PreAmp and Camber speakers, purchased over 15 years ago when I seemed to have more money at college (!) I'm looking to eliminate the larger Camber speakers and replace with a set of smaller bookshelfs. I'd like to mount the bookshelf speakers near/in the upper corners of our main living area (about 16 feet x 40 feet) which consists of living, dining, and kitchen all in one big room. The walls are 9 feet high. The floor is tile over concrete. Questions: - The point of mounting the speakers in the upper corners (on the 16 foot wall) is to: (1) avoid taking up space on the floor and (2) move the sound nicely through the room. Is this reasonable? Any caveats, words of wisdom etc? - Can I get a set of bookshelf speakers that will do this effectively, given my amp, room size, etc? - Can it be done effectively without a subwoofer? - Realizing that speakers are a personal thing, can you recommend any specific speakers that would do the job well? I think I have local access to paradigm, athena, polk audio, bose, jbl, and maybe klipsch. Probably others as well. - Are there certain speakers that I should definitely NOT consider because of my amp type or room size etc? I'm looking to stay well within 3 figures on this. If not possible I may have to delay the purchase. Thanks for any help. Cheers, Derrick |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1073 Registered: Nov-05 | q1 - Yes, you can get speakers do that effectively. q2 - depends on how much bass you like. q3 - No! only you can decide what speakers you like. We can all make recommendations but it's your ears. q4 - I'm sure there are some you should definitely not consider. The fact that you are willing to mount the speakers in the upper corners of your room may bring comments like - hey, anything will do to suit your purpose - because really, that sort of location will only be suitable for background music and not for serious listening. I advise that you insert speaker placement in the Google search bar and read up on the subject - unless all you really want is an out of the way place for speakers that will really be for background music duties and not for optimum sound quality. Not only would you be placing speakers in a room corner, they would also be close to the ceiling corner, so you would be doubling up on bad placement. Even front ported speakers have difficulty placed too close to walls and corners - some worse than others. But hey, this is just my opinion and someone might have better advice for you. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9661 Registered: May-04 | . Each reflecting surface placed against a speaker increases the mid bass by approximately 3 dB. By placing a small, low bass shy speaker in the corner and against the ceiling you will have about a +9 dB bump (lump) in the midbass. This placement all too often makes small speakers sound rather muddy and unbalanced as the treble sounds rolled off by comparison. By placing the speakers in the corners of the room with a 16' distance between the two cabinets, you have decidely gone from any semblance of realistic sound to something that merely puts sound into the room. The sound will "stick" to one cabinet or the other as you move closer to either side of the room. Unless you give the mounting system a bit of a tilt to "aim" the tweeter into the listening area when seated, you will be missing some high frequency response due to the rather directional response of the high frequencies. Therefore, if you are looking for sound that simply exists in the room, you can manage with your idea. It is not good sound reproduction but, if you don't care, we don't care. Whether you will require a subwoofer is up to your taste. If you like bass response, small speakers aren't going to accomplish what the Cambers manage unless you augment the small speakers' low frequency response with a subwoofer. You might consider some ceiling mounted speakers instead. Look for a pair with a tweeter that can be aimed into the listening area and give a listen in the showromm for the dispersion throughout the room as you walk around the space. Pay attention to the spacing the shop uses, which will probably about eight feet apart. Anything wider tends to sound like two speakers in the corners. . |
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New member Username: DdgunterPost Number: 2 Registered: Jan-07 | Thanks for the information. I've done a bit of research on speaker placement since. Looks like the ideal placement for speakers is typically several feet out from all surfaces in general, something that is not possible in my case, since these rooms are not meant for listening *specifically*, but rather for listening to nice music while doing general living stuff. Given this scenario, one that is probably very common for most families :-), I'll have to do my best to fit the speakers in a reasonable spot. In any case, my point was not necessarily to stick them as close to the corners as possible but rather in the general area. I can easily bring them closer together than 16', perhaps 10', as well as drop them 2' from the ceiling. Pushing them out into the room is another story, and would be limited to something that could be achieved with mounting arms. Does the use of mounting arms negatively affect the sound as well? One the base, again realizing that it's a personal taste issue, are there certain bookshelf speakers that do a better job at it than others? Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1864 Registered: Sep-04 | Derrick, Many speakers are designed as free space designs but typically this means 18 inches from a rear wall and 2 feet from the side wall - it's not 'several feet'. Furthermore it is actually quite uncommon to be asked to fill a room space 40ftx16ftx9ft! That is a very large volume of space to fill and your choice of speaker type doesn't help at all of course! I would optimise the solution for the lounge area and accept that the other areas will be used for casual background listening only. the rule of speaker placement is that the speakers and your listening position should form an isosceles triangle with the distance between the speakers being less than or equal to the distance between you and each speaker. Ideally you should not be closer to one speaker than the other. If this happens the soundstage will collapse to the nearer speaker and you will ahve to use the Balance control on your amplifier to move the soundstage between the speakers again. In fact, this may be necessary anyway if one speaker is significantly closer to a boundary (sidewall for example) than the other. So if you sit on your couch and the opposite wall is 12 feet away, the speakers on the wall should not be more than 12 feet apart. Typically they would not be less than 7 feet apart in that kind of space, and I'd imagine that an optimal distance would be about 9 feet apart although you should test this before drilling walls. As to height, in theory each speaker should be placed such that the acoustic centre of its drive units should be at the same height as your ears when listening. With a 2-way speaker this is roughly halfway between the centres of the two drive units. If you listen sitting on a couch, then that's typically 30 inches off the ground or so. Why is this? Treble frequencies have a tendency to 'beam'. It's a bit like tunnel vision when you drive a car faster and faster. Midrange frequencies spread out quite a bit, and bass frequencies are pretty much omni-directional. Supposedly, the source of a signal below 100hz simply can't be placed by humans. This is why the location of a subwoofer can be theoretically anywhere. In practice, this isn't strictly true since the room has its own effect on the sub's frequencies. So this is why, if the speakers are placed on a wall high up, they should be angled down to point at the listening area. Another suggestion in this situation is to turn them upside down such that the tweeter (treble) unit is lower down and therefore closer to your ear. Every bit counts in this situation, and it doesn't cost you any extra! The sound of the two speakers is meant to add up to give you a soundstage. The sound of both speakers reaches both your ears, and it is the combination of these sounds and some serious realtime computation by your brain which allows you to place individual noises, or instruments, in the field between and around the speakers. However, if you bring the speakers to close together, the time delays are so close that the brain interprets the sound as compressed and confused. On the other hand, if they're too far apart, the time delays are so great that the sound snaps to the speakers and the brain can'tadd them together to give you the soundstage. This is what stereo is about incidentally. As to wall proximity, some speakers do need 18" or more from the wall. Very few speakers are designed to work against a wall. Some work well near the wall even though they're not designed to do so. When you say mounting arms, are you thinking of something that allows you to move the speakers in and out? If so, that would probably be more unsightly than having a speaker near a wall! Also, any movement in the arm is a slack that could affect the sound in the form of smear. The best is a rigid fixture. Speakers that are designed to work against a wall are few and far between. I know of only one brand - Naim. They're not cheap, rare to find, and generally an acquired taste. Totem Acoustic make discreet looking speakers. Their Dreamcatcher and Mite standmounts are often used in wall placement scenarios. They're tiny speakers with a big sound, but your space is huge so they will have their limitations. Another option might be B&W's CM1 which is small but has a big midbass to it (too big in my opinion). As to bass, the speakers I've mentioned are good in this respect. Naturally, nobody wants something to sound bass-heavy so speakers are generally designed for neutrality. That said, these speakers may be lost in your application so a sub may become necessary to fill in the lower registers. Whether this is necessary is down to your results with the main speakers. I hope this helps! Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: DdgunterPost Number: 3 Registered: Jan-07 | Thanks Frank. This is very helpful. Yes, the intent is to design it for the area nearer the speakers, say the first 20'. Not sure, but I'm guessing that the fact that there is no wall at that 20 foot mark will affect how the speakers sound even if optimized for only that end of the room. An article I found referenced from the article section of this site does seem to indicate several feet from the wall (http://www.goodsound.com/howto/2002_05_01.htm) although it's very possible I missed something :-) To clarify the wall mounting. I guess I figured that a device similar to those used for TVs on the wall could be used, thereby allowing the speaker to be angled the way that sounds best. Perhaps this is a bad idea, as you say. In such a case, I may build a little shelf angled in the correct direction, slightly inward and downward, to create that triangle. In any case, they won't be directly against the wall, but more like 6" to 12". There do seem to be some speakers designed to work this way (and have wall mounts specifically designed for them), like Bose, but perhaps the result is a much lower quality of sound. Perhaps this is all that can be expected in a room that does not have the space to place the speakers on the floor in the ideal positions. A sub is not out of the question but I'd like to do without for now. And I'd rather spend a bit more on the speakers themselves if this would help with the bass. Thanks very much for the help. Much appreciated. Cheers, Derrick |
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Silver Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 109 Registered: Mar-06 | What about speakers that fit flat against a wall such as: http://www.us.martinlogan.com/speaker_intro/vignette.html |
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Silver Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 110 Registered: Mar-06 | Also, KEF makes speakers with wall-mounting brackets, so maybe they are designed to perform that way: http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/KEF-Home-Theater-Speaker-System-KHT2005IIBLMP/sem /rpsm/oid/141288/catOid/-16881/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do I listened to them briefly and thought they were good.. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1872 Registered: Sep-04 | Srinivas, Those KEF 2005s are OK for the money but they're not a patch on the quality we're talking about... Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: DdgunterPost Number: 4 Registered: Jan-07 | Thanks to all for the input. Much appreciated. Derrick |