Newbie
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-07 | I'm recently open to the idea of setting up an in home audio system. I want big. I want loud. I want something that will rock my house off foundation. I want something that will cause my plexiglass window to look like a TV tube. I've heard about the W7 sub woofer, and I like it. I've researched it a little bit, but don't understand much of it. I basically came here to learn the basics of audio and such. Can anyone help? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9638 Registered: May-04 | . Stacked, tri-amped Klipschorns. Unless you want really loud. |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Jan-07 | I'm not sure what that means. That's my problem. I don't know very much when it comes to home audio. that's why I made the account so I can learn more about it. I don't know all the stuff when it comes to watts, I don't even know what a channel on a revceiver is. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5458 Registered: Dec-04 | Mikid, this may take a while. Do you have money or not? |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Jan-07 | At the moment. No. I just want to learn about home audio. I'm all about learning stuff. |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Jan-07 | I'm also aware that a home audio system can range on the high price of 10,000 depending on how much quality you want. I'm aware that for basics you need a Receiver, i've already decided I want a Home Theater receiver so that I can use my TV with it. I also know I need an EQ, some speakers, some subwoofers, and alot of power VIA amplifiers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9647 Registered: May-04 | . That's about all you need to know right now. By the time you have some cash, there will be other things you want. I promise. Read, that's how you learn; you can ask questions later. . |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1185 Registered: Dec-03 | Check your area to find out if there are any local audio clubs. http://www.audioxpress.com/clubs/index.htm http://www.audaud.com/audaud/clubs.html |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, I know that's all I NEED to know for now, but I want to know more so when it comes time, I can set it up. Like on Ebay. I've seen where 7.1 home theater receivers that put out 75 watts per channel. I'm not sure what that means. What is a channel? Does it matter how many watts each channel gets? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9649 Registered: May-04 | . A channel is a complete recording/amplification stage. Two channels, left and right, make stereo. One channel makes mono. How much power each channel gets is arbitrary and how many watts you need is determined by asking questions about how you will use the system. 75 watts should be enough for most systems. You can't learn squat about hifi on Ebay. |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Jan-07 | So 7.1 is basically surround sound. I heard that the .1 stands for the subwoofer. Also people talk about the systems ''logic'' what is that? Also, I just seen this. NEW YAMAHA RX-V2700 7.1 STEREO HOME THEATER RECEIVER $$ 980 WATTS OF INCREDIBLE PROLOGIC II POWER It's selling for a little over 1000 dollars. What makes it so special? And the 980 watts. Does that mean that's the power it puts out, or the power it needs? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9650 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.enjoythemusic.com/audioterminology.htm#S http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/index.shtml http://www.cardinalproaudio.com/main/terms.htm http://www.prillaman.net/ht_info_8-wiring.html http://hometheater.about.com/od/beforeyoubuy/l/bltips.htm http://eli47.tripod.com/audiogloss.html http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/def.htm http://lp2cd.com/audio_terms/a/index.html http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/index.php https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56618.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Dynamic_loudspeakers http://harada-sound.com/sound/handbook/defa-d.html http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html http://www.axiomaudio.com/newsletter_index.html http://hometheater.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=hometheater&zu=h ttp://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker1.htm http://hometheater.about.com/cs/loudspeakers/a/aasubwoofera_3.htm https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/149683.html Should you bookmark this page? Probably. . |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Jan-07 | Right on Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9651 Registered: May-04 | . "Also people talk about the systems ''logic'' what is that?" "What makes it so special?" "And the 980 watts. Does that mean that's the power it puts out, or the power it needs?" Does your history teacher tell you about the Revolutionary War and then about Watergate? If you want to learn, you will learn by staying on track, not jumping around from topic to topic as things come into your head. We can't sit here and answer every question you come up with. What we know has taken decades to learn and we did it the same way you're going to have to do; one piece of information at a time. Read! . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5461 Registered: Dec-04 | Read and learn, Miki. Do not spend a dime, yet. Please, for the love of Pete, do not buy a 7.1 receiver yet. |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 8 Registered: Jan-07 | I understand what you're saying Jan. Gotta take it slow, or I might learn so much my brain will explode. Or i'll just lose interest. The first one would be cooler though. And Nuck, what's wrong with 7.1? Not like I know what's so good about it, but yanno. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5471 Registered: Dec-04 | Miki, I take it slow, just because thats all I can handle. My brain won't explode, it's too small. Just kind of melt down and shivel. 7 channels is a waste, IMHO. 2 ears, 2 channels. Like Elvis did. And Jimmy Dorsey. And Sinatra. And early AC/DC. And the Chile Peppers. And U2. And Rush( I have autographs) And the Holly Cole Trio. |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 9 Registered: Jan-07 | Alright, after having read a few of those sites, and talking to a few of my friends, I think i've got it pretty much figured out. Whether it be 2 channels 4 channels, 6.1 channels, or 7.1 channels, it's all speakers. The channels are basically tunnels, that the receiver sends decoded sounds through. Each tunnel goes to a speaker, causing it to place different sounds, in different speakers. Making it sound as if you were actually in the movie, or in the game. So it seems i've come to my basic setup. I have a 32 inch TV, not sure if it's new enough to hook up to surround, but I know my Xbox 360 is. So i cando that, and have a game, and DVD player running through the same thing. Taking up less space on the back of my receiver. I also want to get 2 nice woofers. As I said earlier, i'm really thinking towards the W7's. Probably some 12W7's, because I have a small room. But I still want alot of sound pumping out. As for speakers, i'm thinking maybe 4 12's, and 2 15's to top it off. And i've figured out the EQ, it's basically just used to filter the music, or set special acoustics for a room, say your room isn't perfectly square or something of the sort. you can use the EQ to adjust the sound frequency, so it's either more treble, or more bass. If i'm messing up anywhere in the post, please, point me in the right direction, because I believe i'm starting to get it. |
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Silver Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 108 Registered: Mar-06 | "it's all speakers" A lot of people believe in that. I suggest you look closely at your room and decide on speakers first. For home use, if you want music loud, Cerwin Vega speakers are popular. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1186 Registered: Dec-03 | Ah, youth. "I want big. I want loud" What about accuracy? "I also know I need an EQ" Not necessarily. Integrating the system with the room is the first step. EQs are helpful for bass but if you need to EQ everything you've done something wrong. "I also want to get 2 nice woofers" That's unneccesary. It's more likely you'll get 2 mediocre subs rather than one good one. Also, take a look at a musical scale and see where most of the frequencies are. Only pipe organs and synth bass go real low. Most music occurs above 40Hz, even in Rap and Techno with the vast majority being between 70 and 4000 Hz. Wouldn't it make more sense to make sure the mid-range is right first? Reflecting on the impulsiveness of youth it's very common for young men to get something big and loud and not consider accuracy of reproduction at all. It's also more important to be able to impress your peers rather then please yourself or try to do something right the first time. I'm assuming this fantasy system will be setup in a bedroom. How large is the room? What shape is it? You've mentioned gaming. Does this include movies? What about music? How far away from the speakers will the listening position be? How many people will be participating in the listening/gaming/movie session? It's not that your eagerness will cause your head to explode, it's that you'll waste a lot of money and wonder what happened and probably damage your hearing in the process. Trust me, you'll regret that when your 50. I'm going to assume you're most interested in surround sound for movies and games and would like a sub to get the effect of explosions. You also want to be able to play modern music and get some "thump" from the bass line. I'm also assuming you're going to put this into a moderate to smallish sized room. I suggest getting some smaller two-way speakers of respectible quality, probably from an Internet-direct dealer and a decent subwoofer no more than 12" and probably in a sealed box rather than vented. A 12" vented sub in a smallish room is not likely to produce accurate bass. If that sounds reasonable there are plenty of people on this forum ready to make recommendations as soon as you come up with a budget. This probably sounds like boring advice from some old dude but there is something to be said for experience I have and you don't. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5499 Registered: Dec-04 | Miki, take me for an example...please. I have a large wattage, high buck system with a sub and a plasma tv. The 18wpc tube kit with 4 1/2" single driver speaker is where I spend my time. Sure, the loud one is fun, and it doesn't suck, but the real music happens elsewhere. Buy a guitar and some lessons for Rock. And some voice lessons for real volume. Like Meatloaf. |
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New member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 10 Registered: Jan-07 | Tim, I take that advice to heart because I hadn't really taken all that into consideration. And yes, I'll be using the system to play on my Xbox360 which most of it's games are produced in 5.1 so a 5.1 system would probably more accurate for me. I'll also be watching movies on it, as well as just listening to it for the bass line. There's a good chance that's it's mainly for the music, but I do like Surround sound because i've heard some really intense movies through surround. It makes it that much better. As for people, at the most, 3. I'm not gonna lie, sure, i'm doing it partially because of my peers. But, after hearing a few select songs on a good audio system, the songs don't seem that good anymore. Such as the song Munchies for your bass by Nemesis. It's a great song, with an even greater bassline, but if you're not properly equipped, you won't hear the bassline. As for the size of the room, it's about 13 long by 6 wide. It's a relativly small room, since there's a 6 ft entertainment system, which holds my computer and TV. I'm probably gonna build a few shelves to hold the receiver, eq, and amps. As for speakers, I was thinking one on each wall, and the sub can go under my TV, supposing there's enough room. Though i'm thinking I should get rid of my bed and get a fouton so there's more room. Thanks again for all the help dudes. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5502 Registered: Dec-04 | Tim, looks like you get to taech Miki. Lucky Miki. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5503 Registered: Dec-04 | Tim, looks like you get to teach Miki. Lucky Miki. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5504 Registered: Dec-04 | And if I had an edit function, I would be happier. I have to live with the dyslexia, the edit would be handy. Miki, you are in good hands. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1187 Registered: Dec-03 | In a room that size you don't need "big" or "alot of power". Also, very few quality subwoofers are magnetically shielded. You're going to need about 3 feet or better of space separating the sub and the television. There are a number of $300 A/V receivers on the market that would suit your needs fine. Brands such as Harmon Kardon, Denon, Pioneer, etc.. Internet-direct companies such as AV123 or Ascend Acoustics offer quality entry level speaker systems including subwoofers. For a room that size even a good 8" powered subwoofer would be enough. Still, you may be looking at around $1000 or more for the entire system which, in the world of audio, is an exceptional bargain for something that will keep you happy for many years. Now, if you have access to power tools and can do some basic woodworking there's a whole new world of audio for you to explore. DIY This may be contrary to your preconceived notions of Hi Fi but you could build something like this and be amazed at the sound quality. The drivers in these boxes cost $10 each. http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html For a subwoofer one of these http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-854 and one of these http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-802 You build the boxes. Don't confuse this stuff with the $200 PC speakers systems for sale in the "big box" stores. The difference in audio quality is like night and day. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5513 Registered: Dec-04 | Miki, you might be handy with a mitrebox saw, like Mrs Nuck, or not. This is top notch referral from a proffesional. I hope you follow up. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5514 Registered: Dec-04 | Miki, I might also add that Tim is an independant audio builder. His recommendations right there are coming from a true enthusiest, and honestly, one of the most selfless fellows that you would ever care to meet online. Yes, I own a pair of speakers from www.Alegriaaudio.com but I also own a ton of info that I have gotten from Tim. |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 11 Registered: Jan-07 | I'm glad to know that atleast i'm getting good info. And tim, thank's for all the advice man. I've thought about building my own boxes for a while. I've seen people build boxes, so I have somewhat of an idea. I don't think I have all the necessary tools, but i'm sure I could hit up some family members for a jigsaw. A while back, I never knew speaker boxes had to have special measurments. I just thought you could build any sized box, with a hole big enough for the speaker, and it'd be cool, but now I know there has to be certain volumes, though that's something else I wanted to ask. Why does the box have to have a certain volume? Does the sound bounce around inside the box? |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 12 Registered: Jan-07 | By the way, those partsexpress links don't want to work. It takes me to the site, but it never loads. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1188 Registered: Dec-03 | You can enter the part numbers instead. 264-854 300-802 The volume inside the enclosure acts like a spring. This "spring" needs to be strong enough to support the motion of the cone without being stronger than what the motor can smoothly act against (too large vs. too small). The correct size enclosure will support the motion of the cone and assist the motor in moving the cone. Place a driver intended to be used in an enclosure in "free air" and it will be easy to drive it into over excursion with bass response far below it's capability. It will typically take more power to drive it as well. Some drivers are designed to be used in this way (called "open-baffle" or "dipole"). Examples of OB speakers are the Linkwitz Orion and Gilmore Model 2. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1189 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW, when thinking about the air inside a speaker enclosure it's more accurate to think of it in terms of "mass" not "sound", although, frequency does come into play in vented enclosures. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5523 Registered: Dec-04 | force x distance /time. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1190 Registered: Dec-03 | Additionally, you must consider deceleration which is also a combination of motor strength, mechanical compliance and the air mass inside the enclosure. It goes both ways. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1568 Registered: May-05 | To quote my old Physics professor - "There ain't no such thing as decceleration. It's NEGATIVE ACCELERATION" |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1191 Registered: Dec-03 | true |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 13 Registered: Jan-07 | this is where you lost me. -Place a driver intended to be used in an enclosure in "free air" and it will be easy to drive it into over excursion with bass response far below it's capability. It will typically take more power to drive it as well. Some drivers are designed to be used in this way (called "open-baffle" or "dipole"). Examples of OB speakers are the Linkwitz Orion and Gilmore Model 2. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1192 Registered: Dec-03 | Many people call drivers "speakers". To avoid confusion a "speaker" is a system comprised of some type of cabinet, a driver or drivers and often a crossover. So, drivers come in all shapes and sizes and different functionality. Most are intended to be used in an enclosure (cabinet/box). If you just hook up a driver to an amp without a box around it (free-air) you can over-drive it. Over-excursion is when the cone and voice coil assembly exceeds it's intended distance of travel usually resulting in damage to the driver. Surprisingly, without the "spring" created by the mass of air inside the box the driver will require more amplifier power to create the same volume level you would achieve were the driver in a box. Hopefully you can recognize the quandry. If it requires more power to play loud but will likely be damaged if you try..well, it's just not going to work, is it? If you want to build a speaker system that doesn't have a box you'll need a driver that has enough motor strength and suspension strength to not need the "spring" an enclosure provides. Here's an OB I've been playing with. This is the front.  |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1193 Registered: Dec-03 | and the back, without the wiring.  |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 16 Registered: Jan-07 | Alright, I understood that a little better. Now, is excursion the distance that the cone can move? And over-excursion being to where it stretches too far? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1194 Registered: Dec-03 | Basically, yes. http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker5.htm Looking at the above graphic you can see the cone (or diaphram) is attached to the voice coil. The cone can move far enough to allow the voice coil to slap against the back plate of the magnet causing damage. |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 17 Registered: Jan-07 | Alright, I see what you're saying. I think i'm understanding hi-fi alot better than before I came here. Might there be a test that you don't have to go to a college to take? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5531 Registered: Dec-04 | Hi Miki. Funny, I just flew into Indy, I am in Terre Haute now. The college course is not required, per se, but always useful. Keep following the thread. A college course is just what Tim is giving you here, loosely, but you have to keep up! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5532 Registered: Dec-04 | Man, these people are nuts, and I mean crazy,about the Colts. It's like a parade at the airport! Mike W., this doesn't bode well... |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 18 Registered: Jan-07 | Ah, Terra Haute. Never been there myself, but I got family down there. GO COLTS! We finally got to the superbowl. Hope we beat the bears. IT'D BE AWESOME! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3828 Registered: Feb-05 | My Dad's from Terre Haute and my Mom's from Rockford, Illinois....Go Bears (though they don't have a chance). I lived in the Chicago area and visited Indy, like Indy (not Peyton's Colts "ick" but the city) love Chicago! My sister still lives in Terre Haute. Enjoy the music Miki-D. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1195 Registered: Dec-03 | I won't be in the U.S. on the 4th but I think I already saw the best game of the season during the AFC Championship. MikiD - I like your french fries. We've talked a lot about speakers and since this is the speaker forum that's appropriate. An audio system is more than one component. All the parts should compliment each other, or at least, not be the weakest link in the chain. Always try for balance unless you're on the upgrade trail. In other words, it doesn't make sense to have fantastic speakers driven by a terrible amp, or a high end CD player if the speakers are crap. You don't need a college degree to make good purchase decisions. There's a ton of information on the Internet these days and Jan has provided a lot of links to check out. When I was your age it was a lot harder trying to learn about this stuff. I can provide a few more links as well. A music frequency chart: http://www.har-bal.com/frequency.php Subwoofer stuff: http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/SubwooferSetup.pdf Crossovers: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/cross.html#c1 An article titled "How to Build Speakers" http://members.aol.com/pjay99site/buildspeaker.htm Dr. Floyd Toole on multi-channel sound: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt1.pdf |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 239 Registered: May-06 | Alright now you all have done it. DA BEARS!!! The Colts score a measly 15 points against the Ravens who also have a good defense, they think their nose tackle is their savior, lining up against a perenial pro bowl center in Olin Krutz? The Colts have no idea what they are up against. Grossman plays a poor game and the Bears score 39 points. The best offense in the NFC has no running game against the Bears which renders the Saints passing game meaningless, and the Colts? Forget about it. Besides, how could any true blue blooded Americans like anything about the Mannings after their draft fiasco San Diego? |
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Bronze Member Username: MikidIndianapolis, Indiana USA Post Number: 21 Registered: Jan-07 | I'd just like to remind you, the colts beat the ravens, with NO touchdowns.  , and currently have the best kicker in the legaue, Compliments of the patriots. At the moment we're the number 4 team in the leauge, Patriots were number 3, and Bears are the number 1 team. IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE SLOWLY MOVING ON UP! Bears are going down! GO COLTS!And Tim. The AFC was the best game i've seen all season too. I loved seeing the colts finally beat the pats when the chips were on the table. And, yeah, I understand that you can't just have 1 nice item out of 7 or 8 items, they all have to compliment off of each other. Like you said, You don't want things to contradict each other, such as crappy speakers and a nice CD player, or vice versa. Also, i'm glad I bookmakred this page, and the links Jan provided were very helpful, and also I understand a bunch of things I didn't understand before. All the better for me, cause I gotta take the Graduation Qualification Exam next year, and i'm sure they'll throw atleast something about wavelengths in there. Not sure how ready i'll be, but if I keep reading this site, i'll be well prepared. |
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