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New member Username: JonahpetNew york, Ny Usa Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-07 | I am moving from stereo to HT in my living room and I need help choosing an AV receiver. If all my video gear is HDMI capable do I need or want to run video through a receiver? I have a Samsung HL-S5087 DLP TV and Mirage Omnisat speakers (V2 FS fronts, V2 CC, S10 sub, and omnisat V1 rear). I am replacing an Arcam A65 stereo amp, so I am not used to bells and whistles and I don't want to feel like I've taken a huge hit in audio quality when I'm listening to music. So what receiver do I buy in the $1000 range (do I even need to spend that much)? I've been looking at the Denon 2807, Yamaha 1700, Pioneer Elite (no idea which model makes sense on that line), and the NAD T753/4. I also think I might want to pick up a used Yamaha 2500/2600 pretty cheap if I'm not going to pass through a video signal. I read reviews and I just get confused. It's near impossible to hear many of these side by side at a dealer. Help. What is reliable and sounds the best? Or am I totally off in my approach and do I need to put an emphasis on video. If you're still reading this thanks for your patience with a new member. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1011 Registered: Dec-03 | At this time, do not, I repeat, DO NOT base your decision upon whether the receiver has HDMI connections. This is because HDMI is an evolving specification. The latest spec, HDMI 1.3, was just adopted last August and it has a larger connector than the earlier HDMI specs. No product, other than PlayStation 3, is out with the new connector yet. Furthermore, I have never been a fan of introducing another step in the signal path (an audio receiver processing and passing a video signal). This is something that may make sense in the future when HDMI is finally standardized, but it doesn't right now. 1. Nice HDTV set. How do you like it? 2. Your Mirage speakers are a bit on the bright side, sonically. Now that is not a bad thing, but it does impact what amp you should be using to drive them. A Yamaha receiver would be a real mistake as low and mid range Yamaha receivers (either the 1700 or the 2500/2600) have accented the upper midrange (they are "bright"), which if paired with very forward sounding Mirages will likely cause severe audio fatigue. Yamaha is a poor choice with those speakers. I have had a bad experience with Denon and never recommend them, although they have been slowly improving. Nevertheless, a serious step down from your Arcam. Pioneer Elite is well built, but I find them too dark sounding for my tastes. 3. With those speakers, and in light of being used to your Arcam stereo receiver, I would suggest that you focus your search onto the NAD or Marantz lines. Arcam receivers are very similar in sound to the NAD and current Marantz receivers (in fact, Arcam and NAD are made in the same factory on the same assembly line). Inasmuch as that is the sound you are used to, that is likely to be what sounds right to your ears. Sticking with either the NAD T753/4 or the recently replaced Marantz SR7500 (still available), I think you will be happy. I have not spent a great deal of time with the new Marantz 7001, but upon first hearing, it did not sound as good as the "older" 7500 does. I hope this helps. Welcome to the board! |
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New member Username: JonahpetNew york, Ny Usa Post Number: 2 Registered: Jan-07 | Hawk, Thank you for the detailed reply. 1. I love the Samsung DLP. I do wish I had bought the 56" set, but other than that I think it's near perfect. As long as you're not viewing from above the set, the picture is as good as anything I've seen and it's ability to handle lower def signals is incredible, which is why I wasn't sure I would want to run video through an amp at all (unless someone made me believe that one of these amps could give me a clearly sharper picture). I guess if the set does have a weakness, it is that everything tends to be too bright and contrasty. But I have found that with all the Samsung sets I have seen. 2. Thank you for giving me speaker specific recommendations. It's so hard to sort through dozens of reviews (which all seem suspiciously positive I might add) and to know what will work with the gear you already have. I haven't purchased the Mirage FS speakers yet and I am certainly willing to entertain the notion of other front speakers. I did listen to them in a store and I liked them without being blown away. I have just assumed that they were the best choice to go with my Mirage center, sub and rears. 3. Both your suggestions sound like they would suit my needs perfectly (I was considering the 7500 I just didn't put it in my original post). My original leaning was toward the NAD, since I think it fits my personality, but I was a little put off by all the service issues that people seem to be reporting on this forum. Since I had been planning to purchase on audiogon or ebay, reliablility is a big issue. 4. I appreciate what you said about the Yamahas. I was a bit turned off by how much reviewers touted their great feature set and dozens of DSP's (which I'm assuming I won't use), but one thing did appeal. I am a little embarassed to say this, but my most used audio source is my Slim Devices Squeezebox. Yamaha's attempt to handle compressed music seemed like it might really be a good thing. Can the Marantz and NAD do well with less than perfect source material? I know it's time to grow up and buy an audiophile CD player, but I can only add a few pieces at a time. Right now I want to buy something good enough to handle some upgrades in the future that I will be able to appreciate now. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1015 Registered: Dec-03 | jonah: Thanks for your impressions of the Samsung DLP. I am in the market and I like to hear from owners rather than salesmen. I hope you have not taken my charecterization of the Mirage speakers as somewhat bright as any kind of criticism because it isn't. I think Mirage speakers are very good, but I did want to explain why I made the recommendations that I did. I think the FS speakers are very good, and since you already have a Mirage center speaker, you really should try to voice match the three speakers across the front. That would suggest a pair of Mirages would work the best. There are a lot of speakers that I like and could recommend, but I see no reason to tear down what you have already purchased to start over. It really comes down to what you like. Given the fact that you have a source (the Squeezebox) that you enjoy, it makes sense to get the next step in the chain which would be a receiver (amp). You are right to view the so-called reviews with some skepticism. There is no benefit to them and significant costs if they bash a product. After over 30 years of reading these things, I have learned to read between the lines. In the case of the Yamahas, I think what you see is a recognition that the sound produced is of the "me, too" variety (like almost all of the mass market receivers), and they can only talk about the features since the sound is somewhat non-descript and un-involving. I personally like the the NAD and the Marantz alot--as I said they both have a much warmer sound that will work well with your speakers. I have both an NAD (a T753) and a Rotel unit in my home, and I have listened to quite a few receivers over the past 5-6 years. I can only say that when it comes to less than perfect source material, neither the NAD nor the Marantz is going to try to add or subtract from the source signal--they want to reproduce and amplify what the signal gives to them, just like your Arcam. But, I don't think that should be a problem as your Squeezebox has both stereo and digital outputs. If the on-board DACs of the Squeezebox do not do a good job, I think you will find the DACs in the NAD receivers to be very good--just connect them with either a toslink optical interconnect or a digital coax interconnect and I think you will hear an improvement in the program material. In my own experience, I have my rather pedestrian sony CD/DVD player connected to my NAD receiver with a digital interconnect and I really love the sound--that's because the NAD is doing the processing. The NAD's DACs are quite good. BTW, I see nothing to be embarrassed about in using the Squeezebox as your primary source--this stuff is for your entertainment and if that is what you like, more power to you. One of the advantages of an A/V receiver is that the digital to analog conversion can be off-loaded to the receiver and this may well result in a serious improvement in the sound. Certainly it did in the case of my system. Enjoy! |
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New member Username: JonahpetNew york, Ny Usa Post Number: 3 Registered: Jan-07 | Thanks again Hawk. Now it's time to pull the trigger. If I go with the NAD, do you think it's worth the extra $100-150 to get the 754 over the 753? Should I be looking to spend a little extra for a used 763? You have the T753, why did you choose that over the Marantz? I found a dealer where I can hear the NAD T754 and the Marantz 7500 in the same store. I'm not sure how much that will help, but it's something. Any advice on making the most out of a test listen? Also, should I stay away from the refurbished Marantz 7500s I'm seeing all over? My instincts say that used may be a better choice than refurbished. I gave a little more thought to the Samsung DLP. I used to be a pretty serious amatuer photographer in the days before digital and when it came to color film I thought Fuji had the wow factor, but Kodak had more accurate color. I always used Kodak film. I don't think there is a better deal out there, but knowing what you look for in an amp, I have to say I think Samsung goes for the "wow" factor over accuracy. For my first high def set I think that was a good choice and people seeing it in my home have been blown away. It will certainly turn more heads than other sets. You just need to make sure it suits your personal taste. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1022 Registered: Dec-03 | jonah: 1. I get your analogy about the film--I also was into photography for quite a while and agree that Kodak looked more real,but the fuji looked more exciting (too much red in the Fuji film, I think). I have seen quite a few HDTVs that looked a little too colorful, if you know what I mean. Your endorsement of the Samsung gets my attention. 2. Tough call between the NAD and the Marantz--I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I like both, but I liked the NAD better for my tastes--you may hear them differently. You have the advantage of being able to compare the two side by side, so I suggest you determine which one you like better. I would suggest that you take a pair of your OnmiSats (those V1s should be easy to transport) in and have them hooked up so that you can hear what each receiver sounds like with your speakers. Don't be worried by a lack of bass--that would be the speakers, not the amp (the V1s are your rears which don't receive anything content below 80 Hz anyways). both receivers have very good bass. Still, you should be able to hear the midrange and highs very clearly. I find a Friday evening or an early Saturday morning is the best time to do this as there is typically not a lot a traffic in an audio shop at these times. 3. As for the price differential between the 753 and the 754, I don't know. I can tell you that I purchased one of the very first 753s when they first came out. For two years of constant use, it was a champ. Then, my neighbor (who is an engineer and amateur carpenter) started using his table saw and the display on my 753 got fried (I know it was his table saw because it fried a Sony tv in my daughter's bedroom, too. I now have everything connected to a line conditioner to prevent this from happening again). Anyways, I sent my NAD in for repairs and they just gave me a brand new one instead. I can tell you that the new 753 sounded much smoother and more liquid than before--it was obvious to me that some real improvements were made and I really love it. So, I think a lot of the improvements were already incorporated into the later 753s, but how you know you got a newer one, I can't tell you. However, here is a good price on the 754 that I found from an authorized dealer that may solve your problem: 4. As far as refurbs go, I would not be afraid of them. Most refurbs are because of a damaged box, not a problem with th electronics. Industry groups tell me that the return rate (problem rate) is 1/20th that of a new unit, so you are more likely to have a trouble free receiver as a refurb than if it were new. Many places that sell the refurbs also offer an extended warranty for a nominal extra charge ($40-50), so if you are concerned, you can get the extended warranty. Good hunting! |
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New member Username: JonahpetNew york, Ny Usa Post Number: 4 Registered: Jan-07 | Well the trip to the stereo store was a bust. They had the Marantz SR7500 hooked up in a stereo set up and they didn't have the NAD T754 hooked up at all. The dealer had nothing but great things to say about the Marantz, but he said the 8500 was a big step up from the 7500. He had the 7500 on sale new in the box for $699 and the 8500 demo for $799. Anyway I went home and bought a barely used Marantz SR8500 for $700 on ebay. I wanted to buy something from a reputable dealer, but he really convinced me that I was better off with a demo of the 8500 than a new 7500 and since the demo was a final sale "as is" I figured I had nothing to lose by going on ebay. I hope I did the right thing. I'm very excited. Now I just need to purchase my front speakers. Since I'm having trouble finding the Mirage V2 FS at a discount I'm still considering a whole new left center and right package, but I will probably buy the Mirage's. Has anyone heard the Mirage omni 260s? Just a thought. Also I've been told that the Paradigm and PSB would pair well with the Mirage sub and rear surrounds. I should probably start a new thread, but I feel like you have a very good sense of the stuff I'm looking at. Anyway, thanks for all your help Hawk. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I have this set up (my seller doesn't take paypal so I'll have to wait for my check to clear), but I feel like you really helped me with this decision. I know we didn't discuss the 8500, but when I had a chance to buy it for the same price as the 7500 I figured I had to go for it. Let me know what you do about your TV. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1031 Registered: Dec-03 | jonah: Hey, congratulations on the purchase! I think you will enjoy the 8500--it is a fine receiver and I thought the price you paid was very reasonable. Glad I was able to help you, even if in an incidental way. Hey, if you want to track down Mirage at a discount, contact Ed, the sales manager at Kief's (www.kiefs.com). You will have to call them (get the phone number off of the website), but they regularly offer gear at a 20-30% off MSRP. They are great to deal with--I have purchased gear from Kiefs for about 30 years and they have always been great. I know they carry Mirage, too. I'll let you know about the future HDTV purchase when it happens. I need to go take a good hard look at the Samsungs, although I need to get a new cabinet first--my current one is too small. Enjoy! |
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New member Username: Russellr1Mandeville, LA United States Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-07 | I am in a similar situation. I have a pair of Mythos One Towers, and a Supercube II sub, along with the Mythos Three center, & Gem surrounds. I had a Pioneer Elite 84, which I just returned to the dealer, had problems with the failure on setup, and didn't like the sound. I am contemplating an NAD T754, Marantz, Denon 2807, or a Rotel 1057 receiver for my HT, and 30% stereo listening. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1119 Registered: Dec-03 | Roderick: What was it about the Pioneer Elite 84 that you didn't like? |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1136 Registered: Oct-04 | HDMI 1.3 uses the same connector as all the other versions and is backwards compatible. There was talk of adjusting the connecter because of its general lameness with it falling out and damaging the port from being tugged around but it didn't happen, too many early adopters would have got too angry. A product named a HDMI port saver is good to counteract this - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024004 &p_id=2891&seq=1&format=2&style= The HDMI camp believes there is no signal loss over multiple connections and the signal is fully preserved through switches and such. I'm sceptical of this but am happy with the overall video quality running through a 5-1 switcher for video. Personally my next receiver purchase WILL definitely have HDMI, but as Hawk pointed out I'd like to get one with a standardized HDMI format once it's all sorted out. |