My first post to this forum. Can I start by thanking everyone for some excellent detailed posts that have been submitted. I have read through many of the posts including archived ones and reckon I can describe the TT set up for a number of you in some detail that would make you think I am stalking you!
Thanks to the posts I have managed to go from ZERO TT knowledge to a fair amount of either knowledge or an understanding on what I should and shouldn't make the effort to find out more about.
I have taken a sudden desire to try out Vinyl for the first time since I used to use the parents TT many years ago and after seeing a recent add for the Pro-Ject Debut III the bug has just bitten me! My current set up is Cyrus 7 kit so I like my hifi enough to get good kit but not the mega expensive stuff.
I am a believer in buy good kit to start with rather than something to start and then the expense of trading in to get better kit. So this is where the dilemma lies.
I had settled on the Xpression Mk II that Art loves. It seems to be a great TT for the price. In the UK I can get it for a retail of 249ukp and even down as low as 219ukp via the web. I have looked in to the Rega P3 but I am probably not going to spend too much time tinkering once I have the basic set up so the flexibility of the Rega kit is not too important. In fact I find it hard to find web retailers selling Rega kit in the UK which seems strange as it is a UK company. They all stock Pro-ject though. The RPM5 retails at 399ukp with an online price as low as 349ukp which is great!
My plan is to buy the TT and run it through my Pioneer AX5i AV Phono input initially then fairly soon after add in a Phono Pre-Amp and the Pro-Ject Speed Box. Then in the future upgrade the cart.
So my question is what the forum members think if the RM-5 (RPM5 ex-USA). I have searched for any reviews but have not found any.
I see The Xpression MkII is listed as having the Pro-Ject 9 Tone Arm on a few web retailers sites but is listed on the manufacturers website as having the 8.6 arm. The RPM5 has the 9c which seems a great arm, especially when I see it at an online retailer on its own for 399ukp!!
So although I initially will have the basic TT I would have it with the Pro-Ject Phono Box MkII and the Speed Box and then look to add the better Cart. Once these are added will the improvement in sound be noticeable? Or is the Xpression MkII a very good TT for its price?
Lastly the Xpression comes with an Ortofon OM10 in the UK and the RPM5 with an OM510 MkII. These carts are similarly priced so what is the difference between them or are they similar spec but just different shapes? Does the OM30 match the OM530 MkII? Cart technology is one area I need to read up on more!
Thanks for any reply and sorry if I have waffled on too long!
The change happened later as part of another issue. I had some credit left at the Rega dealer and picked up the P3. I still have the Xpression. It's at a friends shop on consignment. As far as looks go I prefer the looks of the P3 to the RPM5 but that's obviously a matter of personal preference. Enjoy your turntable shopping.
The eXpression has a remarkable tonearm with that swish carbon fibre etc. I am not sure how it differs from the one in the RM-5.
That said, don't discount the P3! The Rega arm is the one to beat. It is extremely highly regarded as a value for money item, and it is possible to improve on it in the fullness of time should you wish. The reason for this is that the basic arm is so sound structurally that it can withstand being upgraded quite significantly. This is why Audio Note use Rega arms and upgrade them with Litz wire, it's why Michell use a Rega arm, rewire it, cut holes into it (to reduce resonances) and change the counterweight system to sell it on for 3 times the retail price of a standard arm.
Rega are in the process of upgrading the P3 (sorry Art). We don't know yet what price the upgraded version is aimed at, but we assume that since the new P2 is £250 and the P5 is £700, the P3 will be closer to the RPM5 price.
Given that you have a Cyrus 7 based system, both turntables will be good propositions in your case. I would discount the eXpression or P2 because quite frankly the source is all-important and in terms of balance you'd be out. As regards the phono stage and cartridge, the Phono Box is a fine little performer, but it's just that - a bargain at the price, but no pretensions to high performance. The Rega Fono is around £100 and is a fair bit better than the Phono Box, although it's not really a mind-blowing experience. You could look for a 2nd hand Tom Evans MicroGroove in MM configuration. These are normally £400 new so I'd expect a 2 or 3-year old to be around £200. This would strike the right balance with your system. I know - it's expensive, but you might as well know the correct configuration for your system, this is the advice I give all my customers with similar electronics.
As to the cartridges, they are the OM series and the 500 series, so one is an OM5 or an OM10 whereas the other is a 510, 520, 530 or 540 (not OM510 or whatever). The 500 series is significantly superior in terms of performance to the OM series. The OM series is basically a cheap cartridge with a poor locking interface for the stylus which looks cool.
The 500 series was devised to take on and beat Goldring's 1000 series which had dominated the £50 - £150 bracket for some years in the early nineties. In my view the 500 series wipes the floor with the Goldrings. The 500 series cartridges all have exactly the same robust bluff square body (wonderful for setup if not exactly pretty). Where they differ is in the stylus only. This allows you to start with a 510 and later on gives you the choice to upgrade to a 520, 530 or 540 when your stylus has worn out (typically 3 years' use for MM cartridges like these) simply by buying the appropriate stylus. The OM series has the same feature, but as I said earlier it's a far less satisfactory mechanical solution than the 500's. The replacement styli cost a lot - around 2/3rds of the new equivalent cartridge but at least there is some saving.
The 510 is a good basic cartridge, but I really think the 520 is the value for money item, particularly in the context of a P3 or better. And in your system I think the 520 is the minimum you should be considering, simply because once again, if the source doesn't extract it from the records, it won't make it into your speakers. These decks can take any cartridge up to £250 (a Dynavector 10x5 for example) and show you significant improvements in performance.
Don't forget to factor in a decent interconnect between your phono stage and your amp. The minimum would be the same wiring loom brand that you're using elsewhere in your system, or Cyrus's own interconnect or Acoustic Precision's interconnect which is possibly the best value for money on the planet in the right system. What I mean is that if you're currently using Chord Co. interconnects and speaker cable, then stick to Chord for this application. If you're using QED, then stick to QED. If you're using a combination, the better result is most likely with the same brand as your speaker cable.
In summary then, the RPM5 or next-generation P3 would be the basic building block. The cartridge should be a 520 or above. The phono stage can be a Phono Box but it is quite limited and something like a Rega Fono, 2nd hand Tom Evans Microgroove or Michell ISO would be the right place to be. Finish off with a decent, matched, interconnect.
I really appreciate the time you take to respond and am sure many people will benefit from the above information as there will be many who pop in to read and don't post as I did initially. Hopefully I can pass on some knowledge in the future once it has been earned and tested!
I have managed to find a retailer who has the Pro-Ject in stock and he is setting up a demo for me to compare the Xpression to the RPM5. Unfortunately I need to go to a different dealer to see the P3.
I am happy to go with a better cartridge but what I may do is get the stock 510 then get a better cart once I have it up and running. That leaves me a spare to put on when I am entertaining and saves a pricey tip waiting to be damaged!
I will go take a look at the Rega P3 again. I really do like the look of the RPM5. I just love the sight of raw Carbon Fibre so it may come down to ultimate audio perfection (for the money) and something I can gaze on while watching the TV!
I was looking at some Graham Slee PreAmps today. Are they a good match for the RPM5/P3? Dealer said they go from £98 up. Maybe I will get a Pro-Ject cheapy till I get more cash together.
Oh one last thing. Dealer seemed a bit amused that I had read that the Speedbox makes an audible difference. Anyone used one and seen a benefit. And can it be used on the P3 or is it Pro-Ject kit only?
As always...thanks! I have been buying a stash off vinyl of Ebay past few days so looking forward to getting the missing bit...the TT!!
I realised I didn't answer one thing in your original note. You will not find Rega dealers on the 'net. Rega does not allow this form of business as they feel the decks need to be setup and the dealer/customer relationship should be maintained with their products. There are other specialists who do this such as Naim and Cyrus (I believe).
The Graham Slee phono stages have had a lot of good press. My colleagues at the shop have heard the lower end ones and were not very impressed (to put it mildly). The Graham Slees allow you to upgrade as you upgrade your turntable so it has its benefits as a scheme. The problem is the basic performance. If your dealer suggests it, he should demo it against the ProJect et al.
The Speedbox is reputed to make a big difference to the performance of the ProJect decks. I'm not sure if it can be used on the P3, although I've heard of people putting Linn Valhalla boards on P3s to great effect! What I can say is that every time I've heard a dedicated power supply introduced onto a record deck, there has been a significant improvement in performance.
I really wish you'd give the 520 more countenance. I don't think the 510 will be a good comprmoise in your system.
Very good thread going on here. I have a few points to add if I may.
I have an Xpression, and the Speed Box makes a very good difference, as Art stated. If your dealer doubts the benefits of speed controllers on turntables, I don't think he really knows much about turntables.
My main arguement here is the Xpression vs P3 comparison. It's not a fair comparison in any way. In the US, the Xpression retails for $500 with a cartridge pre-installed. The P3 retails for $700 without a cartridge. Rega's cheapest cartridge Bias 2, which is a very popular cartridge/table combo, retails for $125. The P3/Bias 2 combo retails for $825 total. An $825 table/cart combo should beat out a $500 combo in every way. The Rega setup does this. The Xpression with Speed Box ($625 total) narrows the gap considerably, but it's still a pretty wide gap. The two shouldn't be compared to each other, unless you're questioning what an extra $200 (minimum) will get you.
If saving $200 isn't the issue, the real comparison should be RPM5 ($650) vs P3 ($700). Personally I think the P3 is the better deck here as well, but I think that's more of a sound preference than a sound quality thing. Add to that upgradability in the future and a proven track record (kind of unfair; Pro-Jects are rock solid, but they haven't been around for nearly as long) and the Rega would be my hands down choice.
Since it's introduction, the P3 has been the definitive deck at it's price point. This isn't for no reason. Given some time, I think the Pro-Jects will be considered worthy adversaries down the road.
For $825 (table and cart included), I don't think any piece of audio equipment out there gives you as much sound quality, build quality, and upgradability as the P3.
I agree with much of what Stu said except the cartridge that comes with the Xpression here in the states is not a good one and should be replaced before use. So the Xpression + usable cartridge + speed box then becomes a bit more of an expensive proposition. It then becomes more of a fair comparison with the P3.
Also the ProJects have not maintained any models long enough for the aftermarket industry to catch up with upgrades and other tweaks. The Projects are good enough tables that they should garner serious consideration from anyone looking in these price ranges but with that said you must keep in mind that you don't get the flexibility with them that you do with Rega's.
I also must grudgingly state that the ProJects DO appear to be better built than the Rega's. I hear of less service issues with them and I have personally experienced less service issues. But for pure sound nothing anywhere near the P3's price range competes. Obviously that is just my preference speaking but I feel it strongly.
Evening all. Not in a good mood as my brand new iPod Shuffle and £60 in the ears fell out my pocket sometime today and are lost. Grrr. Why did it have to be so bl**dy small!!
Hey ho...
Frank, I am not ignoring your advice re the 520 just suggested I stay with the 510 AND get a better cart so I can put the 510 on if entertaining and don't need max quality so the good cart won't get damaged!
Stu, good point re difference in price in the US. The reason I have been sceptical about the P3 is that I wondered if it was more than the Xpression just because it has the Rega name and thought they could get away with charging more, from what you all say it is worth the price!!
Any way I have some dealer comments to make...
I have been in to 3 local hifi shops the past number of days and here are some views...
Shop 1: Salesperson knew a bit about TTs but was not really trying to find out what kit I had, what I wanted from a TT, what I had heard about. He was sure the Xpression MkII was discontinued even though they had both Rega and Pro-Ject in store. Not impressed...I left.
Shop 2: This shop specialised a bit more in TTs, Electrostatic Speakers etc. Salesperson chatty and keen to help but obvious chap at till more experienced. Eventually he took over discussion and gave some good advice. I wanted to demo the Xpression and RPM5 but both were missing the little counter weight on the string and he said he would look it out and give me a call...still heard nothing...
Shop 3: Now this shop was closed yesterday and I found the building with the sign but couldn't figure out how to get in! Went back today and WOW! Not been in this shop but full of Creek, Naim etc. Kit I would love but can't afford at this point in my life! However first chap was really helpful then got a colleague who was the TT expert to take over and help. He was more than happy to show me different Rega decks, explain subtle differences, chat about why the Rega P3 was so good! He was in no rush and even though I admitted my kit was below what they stocked he reassured me it would be great with a P3 but was also happy to suggest where I should and shouldn't push the budget.
He has recommended a Rega P3, Denon DL110 Cart and has said they are getting in a trade in Preamp Michel Iso Hera Phono Stage which they could offer me for £300. Oh so tempting! He also mentioned there was to be a trade in of a Linn L12, can't recall the arm but it retailed at £1600 15 yrs ago and it would include a £1000 PSU. It was to all be sold for £475 and would outperform the P3!!! Sadly someone else has already said they would take it!
I have a P3 demo booked for this Friday and he is happy to pop on some different carts to try out! I might get him to demo the best cart possible to see just how different it is and also see if the P7 can be fired up to compare. Woo hoo!
So come on then! Denon DL110 cart...Michel Iso Hera! Should I go for these too!!
Excellent shopping Richard! You need to listen to a Denon or talk to someone with similar musical tastes as yours who has listened to it. The Denon's sound different than anything out there and it is often said that you either love them or hate them. Only you can decide what camp you are in. Can't speak to the Michell (barely spoke to the Denon). I'm pleased that you found what sounds like a good dealer.
The Linn LP12 is a very good and (so my friends tell me as I have no direct experience) a quirky one. I know no one who has owned one who still does, on the other hand they loved it when they had it.
Here in the UK, where Richard is, the eXpression and Rega 3 are more closely priced. As I recall the eXpression is £250 inc (nasty, blot-on-the-landscape, should never have been born) OM5 cartridge. The P3 is/was £348 (being revamped, remember) + cartridge. A 510 is £50, but if you were to replace the OM5 on the Xpression the difference in price would come down to the decks - at around $90.
OTOH, the RPM5 is £400 inc 510 cart which makes it almost exactly the same price as the current P3.
Richard, £475? Probably an LP12 with Lingo power supply, Linn Akito arm and most likely a K9 cartridge. Very popular combination that sounded great and would, indeed, wallop a P3 into the shade (sorry again Art). Probably needed a service (£100) which is required every 18 months.
I do not know the Denon cartridge, but it has many admirers. It's a high output moving coil, so you can't just change the stylus when it's worn out. You have to change the cartridge. That said, you often get body credit for the old cartridge so it's not the end of the world. It has a relatively low output (1.6mV), even for a High output moving coil (more like 2.5mV and some MM cartridges go up to 6mV) which means you'd have to turn up your volume knob quite a bit more to have the same volume as your CD player.
The Michell ISO/Hera was a Tom Evans design and one of the first external phono stages after the introduction of CD. The ISO was a radical design which showed that much more was available from vinyl at sensible prices than one could have expected until its introduction. The ISO originally retailed for around £600 IIRC. The Hera is an outboard power supply that further reduces the noise floor in the phono stage. I don't recall the price, but it was meant to give a worthwhile improvement to the stage.
It's unusual for an ISO to be configured for moving magnet. If this one is, then the DL110 will work. If not, it'd be a mismatch. I'm sure your dealer has already considered this but you should quiz him about it. £300 is probably about right, maybe a touch high. If the ISO is setup for MC, you could go for a lowwer end MC cartridge. I have played with the new Ortofon Salsa (£200) and it is a peach. If this is too rich for your blood, there's Ortofon's MC15. There's also options from Denon (again) and Audio Technica, which I'm not au fait with. Much lower than this and you start to really lose out to the MMs.
The P7 is a completely different kettle of fish of course. I have had good and bad results wit it. For example I took it home to play with for a few weeks with my Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua and Tom Evans Groove+. It was awful! There was lots of quality of course, but no music - thoroughly boring. I have yet to understand why this was the case. Perhaps I hadn't setup the cartridge correctly, I don't know. however, my new Orbe is in the same system with the same ancillaries and it's fantastic. I think there must have been a mismatch between the cartridge and deck. I have heard the same deck perform much more happily (again with a Dynavector cartridge) so it's not a problem with the deck itself.
I can say that the P5 on its own is also a great deck, but it really comes alive when you add the P7 power supply to it. In this guise I wonder if I don't prefer the P5! Listen critically, but don't get lost in the detail - listen with your heart too...
You mentioned the P3 trading on its name. FYI, I started as a Saturday lad in 1996. At that time, the Planar 3 (as it was then) retailed for £298 and was already the big seller for sensible money. Since then it has gone up by £50, and in the process, they have changed the motor unit, its mounting method and the plinth. I wouldn't say it's exactly trading just on its name.
Agree now re P3 pricing being good in comparison to the competition. I guess before I just thought it was a basic model priced up as it comes from a good background but now I see there is a P1 and P2 so this is a few steps up from intro level Rega.
So what changes are there in the new P3. I will go take a look at the Rega website and see what that states. Do I get to request the new P3 or is it a quiet improvements so I can't ask for the P3 V27 or whatever version they are on now!
The Denon is a MC which has thrown me as I was looking in to the various MM carts. Will see what they have for me to play with on Friday. Annoyingly they don't have a P3 in stock as they are ordered as needed and as they are closed Monday I won't get it until the Tuesday if I make the decision to go for it!
What are the recommendations for a sub £100 (£$200) preamp. I think I need to spend the money on the deck/cart right now and get a decent but starter preamp to get me going.
I could get the cheapy project to get me going but would rather spend a little more to get something that works nicely for a while.
It seems to be the Project or the basic Rega? What about the NAD kit?
Frank pefers the ProJect and I (and my friend who sells both) prefer the NAD. The NAD is in my opinion more laid back and listenable for long stretches. The ProJect is livelier. Both are good bargains for entry level ohono sections.
Not surprised your dealer hasn't got one in. He probably sold his demo one so he wouldn't be stuck with an old model when the new one comes out. We've done that too.
Nobody knows what's in the new P3. Rega will announce it in their usual quiet way. They never make a big fanfare. If you order a P3 on Tuesday, chances are you'll get the current model rather than the revamp which is due soon.
On phono stages, the Rega Fono is a good option, but if you intend to be upgrading, the ProJect is the simple choice since it is MM/MC switchable (there is also a Phono Box SE which is quite a bit better if you want something better). The Fono is either MM or MC but not switchable. NAD's PP2 is also switchable. It's a good basic phono stage, more laid back than the ProJect but still good.
The store still has its P3. It wont get sold as it was a custom paint job with the scottish saltire on it!
I am going in tomorrow for a demo. I have had a look at the Rega website and it only mentions the P1 upgrade and P2 relaunch. Nothing on the P3 and the "Contact Us" page actually then says "Contact your dealer". They didn't mention anything about a newly improved model coming along.
Anyone know what the changes are then? I am happy to hold off if worth it for the new version.
As for phono stages I might grab a Cambridge Audio 640p. I have heard good things about Cambridge and the Phone Preamp gets some good reviews with a few comparing it to a Nad PP2 but with a slightly different presentation of the music. And at 60ukp it is a great price and I can save the £40 from the £100 towards the next one later in the year!
Ok...Demo'd the P3 at the hifi shop. It turned out not to be the chap I spoke to in the previous post but another chap who was very experienced in TTs and had lots of chat but a different view to the first person I spoke to. This chap essentially said to get the P3 and Rega Bias and leave it at that. If I want to spend more then sell it and get a better deck. He also was using the Clearaudio Smart Phono and didn't really get in to any chat about cheaper models even though I made it clear that is what I would prefer.
The sound, however was wonderful and made me very excited about getting my own TT! I popped on Peter Gabriel "So" and the tracks just sounds so gorgeous! Just hope I can work at getting the same sound.
He didn't make any coments on better carts even though I asked and made it quite clear that the cart should be set by the dealer and LEFT. And only re adjusted if brought back to the dealer for a new cart. I like pottering on kit and would prefer to be able to learn the process and be able to swap out carts myself.
I then asked him about the rumour that there was a revised P3 to be launched. He went off and checked with Rega. Now this is where it gets silly...!!!
Turns out there IS a revised P3 still in design and they were not able to say what the changes where. But then the dealer was told that the P3 is currently out of stock until this "new" but still in design stage P3 is launched?!!? I really don't see how a company like Rega can stop making the P3 when the new one is not ready to ahip??
I think the Xmas break and staff shortages due to illness are more likely the cause as it seems to be a smallish company working to short lead times. However I left with no sale as they couldn't confirm when they could get me a deck.
Any way, good news is I have found a second hand P3 for sale through avforums.co.uk and I am going to take a look at it on Sunday. Seems to be a clued up seller so with luck it will be purchased.
And as always... some questions!!!
1. What should I look for in a second hand deck? Anyway to check bearings for noise? I will be able to demo it so will power up the platter and listen for noice without playing a record. It has a Goldring Cart but not sure what type yet.
2. How easy is it to learn to mount and setup a cart? Any links that I can read up?
3. Transporting a TT? Is it enough to just remove the platter and ensure the arm is clipped in to its holder?
4. Ortofon Red...Got the chance of one cheap!! Should I? ;-)
There are loads of changes between a Planar 3 and P3.
1. Different plinth, supposed to make it sound better, but not sure how much difference it makes.
2. Different motor. The new one is quieter as it's less prone to cogging allegedly.
3. Different motor mounting in deck. the old used a rubber band, the new one (thanks to the quieter motor), doesn't need that so it uses a semi-compliant system which gives better grip and control.
4. Different pulley. The new one is metal, not sure of the effect.
5. Feet. the new feet are less compliant than the old ones I believe.
That's it. The bearing, platter, sub-platter and arm are the same. The Planar 3 can be upgraded with the new motor upgrade and mounting system for around £85 or so.
To check the arm bearings are ok, balance the arm so it balances exactly horizontal (you should just have to set the stylus force to zero on the arm). Unset the anti skate. Tap the armso it swings in towards the centre of the deck. It should not stick. If you do this with cartridge attached, ensure you have the stylus guard on there! if it sticks, walk away. It's uneconomical to repair.
Carriage - the deck can be transported with the arm clipped in place and the platter removed (there's a place for it in a cardboard sleeve). There's also a little sleeve that goes under the sub-platter to stop it shocking the bearing.
I dispute your dealer's suggestion of going with a Bias and that anything better should be in a better deck. Although it's true that you can do this to great effect, you'd have to spend a lot more (£700 for a P5 plus cartridge) to get the benefits. Also, the Bias is the easy way around for the dealer since Rega cartridges are mechanically the perfect match to the deck. However, my problem with the rega cartridges is that they are noisy, one-trick ponies with limited bass, scrappy midrange, no soundstage and limited resolution. The Ortofon 500 series is taller so the dealer has to put in a 2mm spacer (from Rega) or a VTA adjuster (from Michell) to get the height right and this means taking the arm off the deck (and takes 3 times longer than fitting a rega cartridge).
I agree with your dealer that if you are a novice, it's FAR better for the dealer to fit the cartridge. 1. It's common for customers to break their cartridges when fitting them. 2. It's even more common for customers to fit them badly, irrespective of how much advice the dealer has given them.
Your dealer has done what we have done. They have sold their demo deck in anticipation of the new one coming out. I appreciate your incredulity but when economies of scale are considered, this is not an unusual situation for the dealer to find himself in. I find it interesting he didn't know about the new P3 coming out.
I haven't heard the Rondo range yet (I think you meant the Ortofon rondo Red right?), but if it's anything like the Salsa it'll be pretty good. My favourite cartridge in that price bracket is the High Ouput MC Dynavector 10x5 which is a beauty at £250. Then again, the Rondo would mean you're right in there with the MCs and can get yourself an MC phono stage like a Tom Evans Microgroove.
That said, we usually recommend the 10x5 as the topmost cartridge we'd put in a P3. You're getting close to the point where a more expensive deck could be considered...
I just wanted to share my experience with the Pro-Ject RM-5. I got one back in October with a Speed Box. I had an Ortofon Super OM-20 at the time and was using the Phono Stage on a Yamaha receiver. This is really the first TT I have set up by myself so it took some time to sort through everything. I was using a Dual 505-2 prior to the Pro-Ject, but I had always used a shop to do the setup. Anyway, the Dual was dying, and I needed a new rig. The Pro-Ject did not blow me away until I got a few upgrades for Christmas. I got an Ortofon 540 MK II and a Pro-Ject Tube Box MK II. The new cartridge and phono stage have really made my system come alive. These upgrades were recommended to me by an Ortofon rep who is also a Pro-Ject distributor in Canada. I couldn't be more pleased. I am using some Klipsch speakers that I have had for a long time. I had no idea they could deliver sound this full. Good luck with whatever you decide to buy.
