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New member Username: MathgeekPost Number: 2 Registered: Dec-06 | I recently replaced some old 16AWG wire with new 10AWG wire. The old wire had one copper strand coated with tin to make it easier to distinguish polarity and also provide some oxidation protection. The second strand was uncoated copper. Knowing that copper is a better conductor than tin, I decided to test the resistance of each. The 16AWG non-coated had a resistance of 0.03 ohm for a 9 meter length. The tin-coated copper wire had a slightly higher resistance, 0.04 ohm. 9 meters was the longest piece I had. When I tested a 3 meter piece, I found no difference. This minor distance may be an artifact of the resolution of my testing equipment, but the difference that I found coincides with what you'd guess about the tin-coated wire. It seems like this could be a problem, sound-wise. Any one had experience with this? Is tin-coated wire generally a bad idea to use for indoor speaker wiring? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9454 Registered: May-04 | . Yes. You should be using something that doesn't rely on the conductor itself being altered in order to identify the legs of the cable. Find something that has different color dielectric for each leg rather than clear insulation. The type and color of the dielectric (even if it's blue) is no guarantee of decent construction and quality but it is a step above the zip style cable you're looking at. . |
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New member Username: MathgeekPost Number: 9 Registered: Dec-06 | I always thought the material around the wire was just an insulator. You're saying that it serves as a dielectric? Interesting. So the two wires act as capacitor? What's the purpose of that? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9455 Registered: May-04 | . What properties other than resistance did you think a cable possessed? Using a VOM you were measuring a simple DC resistance which by itself is fairly irrelevant when you are running an AC voltage through the cable to your speakers until you are using very long cable lengths. However, any cable will possess resistance, inductance and capacitance as basic values. These three components make up the source impedance of the cable and become part of the circuit between the amp and speaker. The construction of the cable will determine how much of each will exert its effect on the circuit of amp-cable-speaker-cable-amp. http://sound.westhost.com/site-map.htm Check out the "Cable" section of the site map. . |
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New member Username: MathgeekPost Number: 10 Registered: Dec-06 | I knew that the wire had self-inductance, but I never thought about the capacitance. I figured that cable was just an RL circuit instead of and RLC circuit. This is the first time I've thought about it. Interesting. Do you know of a tutorial on cable construction from a mathematical perspective? A lot of these audio websites use thousands of words when a few simple equations would suffice. I'm a mathematician, so I'd prefer an explanation in terms of Ohm's Law, Maxwell's equations, differential equations, etc. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9459 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, no. I not a mathematician so I've never looked for such an explanation. Working your way through a few search engines would be my best suggestion. One problem most people run into when attempting to understand cable theory is the number of fields such an endeavour covers. Antenna theory is often one of the best places to begin when trying to gather information regarding cables as mathematical equations. Transmission line theory is another part of cable construction and the relevant effects that you would want to consider. However, you do have to consider that any multiple conductor cable will have a dielectric component, so, that takes you ... where? . |
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Bronze Member Username: MathgeekPost Number: 11 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks, I guess I've got some reading to do. I'm curious. What's you're opinion on some of the claims made by manufacturers of high-end audio cables? I've recently read a few harsh criticisms (this one for example). There are so many factors to account for (resistance, resonance, "skin-effect", etc.) but honestly, how "good" can a cable really be? Wouldn't $5000 dollars be better spent on modifying the acoustic properties of your room than on fancier cables? |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 70 Registered: Mar-06 | Groundhog Day. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4858 Registered: Dec-04 | 'I got you babe'. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 971 Registered: Nov-05 | 'I got you babe'. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 87 Registered: Dec-06 | 'I got you babe'. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9462 Registered: May-04 | . I got nobody. "What's you're opinion on some of the claims made by manufacturers of high-end audio cables?" You'd have to be more specific about which particular claims you want to discuss. I think some claims are quite valid and some claims are B.S. that are meant to satisfy the folks who are looking for new cables. I've heard improvements, in areas that most in the shop thought were valid points of interest, when $5k cables were substituted for $3k cables. Or $5k cables were run in bi-wire mode. But that was with $100k+ worth of gear. My opinion in general is everything is relative. Would I suggest spending $5k on cables when your room needs improvement? No, but lots of people do such a thing because cables are easier to deal with, have minimal WAF and can be shown to your friends. People do lots of dumb things for lots of dumb reasons. Personally, I haven't bought cables in years and I would never spend $5k for cables. I can't indulge in that sort of hedonism. My father would come to me in my dreams if I did something like that. But that doesn't mean someone else can't benefit from such a purchase. I think those who want to and easily can spend that sort of money on cables should do so, if they've covered their butts on everything else in their life. Spending money just for the sake of spending money never seemed right to me. I once worked with someone who had $10-15k worth of cables in his closet at any one time just because he could. I could never get used to that. I could never spend $100k on a car either. One thing I have noticed is who is making a big deal about $5k cables. It is almost always the folks who insist they are right and everyone else is nuts who claim all cables sound the same and you just need some 12 AWG cable from Home Depot to get'er done who make any statement one way or another. The power to humiliate is such a potent weapon. I seldom see the argument done the other way around. The folks who spend large dollars on cables usually let anyone else have their own opinion. It is the people who want to insist anyone who spends more than they did for cables is insane who makes the stink about cables. My opinion is everyone gets to spend their money as they see fit. To tell someone else how they should spend their money is just plain rude. however, to spend your money in a less than wise manner is ..., well, less than wise. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 89 Registered: Dec-06 | Um Jan..just a question.. How fast can you type??? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 973 Registered: Nov-05 | I don't know about Jan, but this is how fast I can type. |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 71 Registered: Mar-06 | ah, what the heck.. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/The_Scream.jpg |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 976 Registered: Nov-05 | Heh, heh, Good one Jaw! |
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Bronze Member Username: MathgeekPost Number: 12 Registered: Dec-06 | Ok, obviously I can't argue because I've never compared $3k to $5k cables on a $100k system. I probably never will have such an opportunity. I'm willing to trust you when you say that there's a difference. I also agree that if someone has essentially unlimited funds, they should not hesitate to buy the best possible product, regardless of cost or actual value. But what intrigues me is how secretive cable companies are about their products. In other industries, when a company produces a good which they believe is technically superior to a competitor, they publish studies and offer up data to support their claims. As an example of what I mean, Etymotic Research makes some very nice headphones. They make a lot of claims about how accurate their in-canal phones are. But instead of just bragging and trying to blind the public with fancy buzzwords, they publish their research in peer-reviewed journals and make these articles available to the public. They do this because they know that their products are outstanding and they're not afraid to back it up with data. So why don't speaker cable companies do this? I can't say for sure that they all don't, but I've never seen one that does. Hearing may be very subjective, but as companies like Etymotic have shown, it can be quantified and studied scientifically. If you spent tons of money on R&D to produce a highly-technical product that you knew was truly elite, wouldn't you want to produce some statistics which convinced your consumer that it was as good as you claim? Basically my position boils down to this, if their product was as good as they claim, it should be easy for them to prove it to me with peer-reviewed research. |
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Bronze Member Username: MathgeekPost Number: 13 Registered: Dec-06 | What's with all of these one-liners? Some kind of inside joke? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9464 Registered: May-04 | . The jokes refer to the number of times cables have been discussed on this forum. Inevitably, someone insists 12AWG is all you need and the ensuing battle can, and has, drawn blood in the razor fights between those who buy cables and those who scoff at those who buy cables. Every time another cable thread appears, the prospective posters wait to see if the thread bursts into flames. Dave, you are asking what makes high end audio worth the money thousands of people spend on merchandise that is half voodoo, half intuition and half blind faith. Let me try to recall a quote we posted on the forum many moons ago, "If you measure something and it measures bad and sounds bad, it is bad. If you measure something that measures bad but sounds good, you measured the wrong thing." Opinions regarding the relative value of cables and $100k systems are among the most divisive in audio. Essentially you either believe what you hear or you believe what you measure. The two worlds are never going to be in synch with each other and the true believers on either side will never cede ground to their opponents. Most of us on this forum, though not all by any means, are believers in the unknown qualities of cables, poly capacitors, oil and paper caps, vacuum tubes and other assorted items that many other people feel are meaningless at best and foolish at worst. Those who believe what they hear are waiting for science to catch up to what they know they experience. As you point out, "hearing" is largely defined by a subjective opinion of what is "accurate". When it comes to reproducing music, the variables are immense since you are questioning how well the component reproduces not just the frequency response and relative levels of the signal but the emotional content of the performance also. It is generally conceded there are no real measurements to predict how well a component can reproduce emotional content or it response in the listener on a repeatable basis. So conventional measurements take us only so far. If you feel those measurements are sufficient evidence for you to decide which component to own then you have an easy job. For those of us who listen before deciding which product to buy, the job is more difficult. To ask me to explain much more than that is asking me to explain the past century of development in audio gear and the physchology of listening and hearing. That's a bit much for one thread. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4869 Registered: Dec-04 | Even typing giddy-up go! Who painted the scary picture of Macaulay Culkin? |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 72 Registered: Mar-06 | lol |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 73 Registered: Mar-06 | Dave, no intent to offend. Audio tends to be subjective and controversial- https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/135998.html It gets really interesting and ugly when a pitched battle arises and both sides know what they're talking about. With all the conversations going on around here, most of us are the brunt of jokes and don't even know it. Go with the flow and enjoy. |
