Needing more speakers....
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 27 Registered: Dec-06 | Ok this setup is just for my bedroom so all I'm looking to do is add more speakers for this music only system: Old '72 Scott R-357 4 channel Stereo receiver (tubes 80 w/RMS/channel) Old '69 Jbl 4311 studio control monitors The receiver has a second pair of speaker output jacks on the back. My dad says he's run it with 4 JBL 4311's in the past and it sounded great, so my question is this. What would be a good pair of speakers that would integrate and blend well with this 30+ year old system. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4750 Registered: Dec-04 | Andre, is that a quadrophonic receiver, or are you running two stereo pairs? |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 28 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm running two stereo pairs. The amp has a switch for 8 or 4 ohms. Just looking for speakers that match the other ones. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4786 Registered: Dec-04 | Then search for another pair of matching Jbl's. I would settle for nothing less than what you like. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9423 Registered: May-04 | . The amp has a "switch" for 8 or 4 Ohms? Not taps off the transformer? This is a tube amp? I'm unaware of any tube amps being made by Scott in 1972. Cetainly nothing in four channel (quadraphonic). By the time companies were building quad amps, they were all solid state designs. I think you might want to check the amp again to clarify what you are using. Are you looking at an amplifier that just has four speaker outputs? Four speaker connectors on a stereo amp mean you will be connecting all four speakers to the same output transistors/tubes. Four speaker connectors on a quad amp implies two separate two channel amps for front and rear. Some quad amps had switching for the front speakers only and that again would place all four speakers on the front two channel amplifier. Rear speakers for a quadraphonic amp are similar to a contemporary surround amp and typically are not run full range down to the lowest, or up to the highest, frequencies. What speakers to use is a matter of how you want to use them. Do you want to stack the four speakers in the front or do you want to use the second pair as rear/surround speakers? The 4311 was known as the L100 in the consumer market. The L36 & L26 were its companion two way speakers with a similar balance to their sound. If you want to use the speakers as rears, either of those would be a good match though you could easily use a contemporary JBL, Klipsch, Advent, BIC or even Polk for surrounds. If you are stacking them all in front, I would try to find a match to what you already own. Stacked L100's, however, didn't really do much more than a single pair. What are your expectations? Also, I would be very careful about stressing a 34 year old amplifier. Has this amp been in use recently or has it been in storage? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4790 Registered: Dec-04 | Andre, do you have a link or pdf for that amp? I am coming up empty. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 32 Registered: Dec-06 | Alright I took a look at the back. That switch I thought was the 4-ohm/8-ohm switch was actually a de-emphasis switch for the 75 or 300 ohm FM antenna input.  Right now the speakers are hooked up to the output with a label of A speakers. There is another output that says Set B. On the front the power switch switch like this: Off(completely), Speaker A, Speaker A+B, Speaker B, Off(Headphones). As for stressing this amp I've run it every day for hours on end at loud levels for years! Nothing seems out of place, as it sounds very clean which does confuse me a little since it's so old. My goal is to widen the stereo soundstage with more speakers, I hope that helps.  I'll see if I can take pictures of the amp or find a link. In the meantime, I'll do what I can. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 34 Registered: Dec-06 | http://www.hifibazar.hu/?q=node/166 That's a picture of it that I luckily found. I've also got more information about it now. It's not from that year it's from '75 sorry about that. It's 60 Wpc not 80. It is a tube amp, not solid-state. It sold for $449 back in the day so I would guess it's a good receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4821 Registered: Dec-04 | Well done, Andre. Keep that receiver. Do not furk it up with a bunch of crud speakers. One pair of speakers will do just fine. Have you a dealer or service center nearby? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4822 Registered: Dec-04 | To make myself clear, this is a very good vintage receiver, and one which I would be proud to run. Please do nor screw it up, as this unit belongs beside some very good Fischer and Braun receivers from that time. Please do it justice! Have it recapped, and maybe roll the tubes(have you read the tube types?) Treat it like the family jewels. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 35 Registered: Dec-06 | Wow, are you serious??? Well, I guess you'd know with all those posts  . I'm not really very knowledgable about tubes, but I can ask what recapping tube rolling is and what it does? The fact is, if you would be proud to run it, then man after looking at your system I better trust you.  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4823 Registered: Dec-04 | Uhh, don't trust me. But that receiver might just serve for years, if it is serviced properly. New caps are the capacitors, the little batteries(sic) that store up energy for big bass kicks and so on. The tube rolls are new tubes, fresh and all, that can liven up your kit. Or yours may be vintage yet. You tell me. Ignore my post count. Meaningless. Really. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4824 Registered: Dec-04 | Glad you like my kit. So do I. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 36 Registered: Dec-06 | I just looked and found even more information haha. On that back it says: Rated 420VA Caution:Speaker Impedance rating must be above 4 ohms in A or B mode; 8 ohms in A+B I guess I'll be fine with this pair of speakers luckily. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4826 Registered: Dec-04 | That would be straight A+B parallel, and that is a good thing. See, ideally, there would be a tap for different speakers, but if the label says either, then the receiver is possibly auto switching, which is good. This receicer might be able to run low impedence speakers just fine. Bottom line, it is a goodie. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4827 Registered: Dec-04 | Andre, can you take a pic of the back panel? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4828 Registered: Dec-04 | I bet that Jan Vigne will check in here soon, probably sold them new. Or a competator. Stay tuned... Does that Scott have a phono input? And a ground lug with the phono? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9433 Registered: May-04 | . http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D260033297586&ih=016&categ ory=50597 Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with both of you. Nuck has again thrown in a term I'm unfamilar with, "auto switching". I don't know what an auto switching amplifier would be either in a tube or solid state design. Tube amplifiers, with the exception of what are termed output transformerless or OTL designs (which are exceptionally rare, exceptionally expensive and unbelievably unreliable) are always terminated with taps off the output transformer(s) and usually make their connection by way of terminal or barrier strips. This is where you connect the speakers and a tube amplifier will have taps for 16, 8, 4 & 2 Ohms or some part of that combination. Tube amps, other than OTL designs, cannot be run any other way due to the high output impedance of the tubes. They do not have A-B switching facilities on the front panel. Solid state amplifiers can have this switching facility since they are direct coupled in most instances. I know of no American consumer market receiver that had tube outputs in the power amplifier section having been built in the 1970's. By then the switch had been completed to transistor outputs and only a handful of receivers held onto tubes in the tuner section of the receiver. (Actually McIntosh is the only company that comes to mind that produced such an animal in the early '70's.) AM, what you have described and pictured is not a tube based amplifier. I think you might be confusing the model you own with the 350 series Scott produced in the early to mid 1960's. The two model lines look quite different. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=h.+h.+scott&ei=UTF-8&pstart=1&fr=ybr_sbc&b=1 You would have quite an unusual tube amplifier if it played for thirty years with the same output tubes. Exactly what makes you think this is a tube output amplifier? By 1975 the original Scott company had all but gone bust. They were not producing their own equipment any longer and were about to become not much more than a nameplate from the past along with Emerson and Fisher. By 1975 Scott was on the down hill slide as a company and their products were not carried by many retailers due to their position in the market relative to the mostly Japanese competition. If you like the amplifier, you should continue to run it until it drops. But your idea of "widening" the soudstage by adding more speakers to the front might not be the best approach to the problem. You will be running two pairs of stereo speakers that are not likely to blend well if they are placed apart from each other. The concept of "imaging" is going to be destroyed as the inner and outer speaker on both sides will be producing the same material which will arrive at your ear at different time intervals due to the different distances each signal will have to travel. This is going to produce a very large, indistinct image of the performers rather than place the performers in space. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are really hoping for. But the terminology you are using (soundstage) isn't going to result in the effect you say you desire by adding more speakers to the front. Stacking more of the same speaker will not give you the wider stage effect either. You could do better by just moving your present speakers further apart. What am I missing here? . |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 37 Registered: Dec-06 | Ok I'm going to tell you what's on the back since I cant take a picture. Left to right: Power input(can disconnect cord) Switched accessory outlets (50w/max, FM antenna plugged in there) Power fuse, Speaker fuses for A&B A&B speaker outputs Rec/Pl Jack Monitor 1 & 2 Tape monitor ins and outs Aux and Phono inputs (yes there's a ground lug above it) 75 ohm and 300 ohm FM antenna connections Ext and Ground Am antenna connections De-emphasis switch(whatever that does) The writing on the back says that each speaker must be 4 ohms or above when in A OR B and each speaker must be 8 ohms or above when both are running. Made in Korea... 4A 250v power fuse That's all the information I could get on the backside. Here's some info on the front. If you look at the picture from left to right you can see what im talking about. That Input on the left is MIC, connected to the Selector knob which can be in Mic, Aux, Phono, Fm or Am. The next three things there are buttons in order from left to right, mute, stereo/mono, and loudness. That next one is the Balance knob (L,R). Next up, volume (never run it much past 1/4, scared to) Oh, there are the Bass and Treble controls. You can see those low and high filters next. Tape copy on/off, tape monitor 1, normal(what's on the selector), or monitor 2 selection. Next is power and above that AM/FM tuning knob. Of course the tuning interface(the lights in it burned out) Signal level and centering meters with a stereo LED for when picking up stereo FM signals. Hopefully that helps, right now I'm trying to figure out what's inside. P.S. the manufacturer is H.H. Scott in Woburn, MA. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 38 Registered: Dec-06 | Maybe what I'm trying to say is that I want to achieve a fuller sound. I'm not too sure at this point anyway, but I'll keep trying to figure out Jan. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 39 Registered: Dec-06 | Ok I just took a flashlight to the inside of the Scott and found no tubes, but I saw the average things you would see in an amplifier including loads of metal coils and capacitors haha. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9434 Registered: May-04 | . Here's what a tube based power amplifier in a receiver looks like with the top cover off. http://www.hhscott.com/_images/300%20-%20RF%20Devices/Receivers/Scott_340B.jpg You can see the three transformers which go into a stereo tube amplifier. One (probably the center unit) is the power transformer and the other two are the output transformers. Behind the transformers you can make out the output tubes of the power amplifier section on the left rear of the chassis. Just behind the faceplate you can see two tubes which probably belong to the tuner section. The smaller pre amp tubes are most likely hidden by the transformers and reside at the rear of the amplifier. As you can see on this page, http://www.hhscott.com/receiver.htm, the 345 was the last Scott tube based receiver. The amplifier looks quite different than the model you own. Look at the production dates for these models. Also, it would be very unusual for a tube based receiver to be rated at 60 watts per channel. (That power rating would even have been somewhat rare in a solid state receiver in 1975. You might be reading what was termed a "peak power" output rating and not a RMS rating.) Sorry to disappoint you, but you own a solid state receiver. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9435 Registered: May-04 | . Oh, yes, it is a stereo receiver and not a four channel unit. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9436 Registered: May-04 | . FM de-emphasis was a switch used to knock down the level of the 19kHz multiplex carrier signal in case it intruded through your speakers. Not many folks actually hear 19kHz and very few speakers could reproduce it in 1975 so it was on the back panel out of the way but it was a useful feature if the signal caused "birdies" to show up in your room. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4834 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.hhscott.com/_images/300%20-%20RF%20Devices/Receivers/Scott_340B.jpg Now THAT'S whay I be talkin' about! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9437 Registered: May-04 | . I don't know what you mean by "fuller" sound. More bass? More clarity? Sorry. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4835 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.hhscott.com/_images/300%20-%20RF%20Devices/Receivers/Scott_340B.jpg Now THAT'S what I be talkin' about! (I am soooo white). |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 42 Registered: Dec-06 | My dad said that he considered a 100-watt unit by Scott but the salesperson said it wouldn't make much difference, should he have opted for that unit? I'm just wondering since I like the "old" feel of this unit. It might be RMS, at least my dad thinks so  |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 43 Registered: Dec-06 | What I mean by fuller sound is when the guitar and bass play you hear the bass more(the control monitors are 93dB sensitivy according to the manual)..(ok yes more bass). How loud should I be turning it up anyway as when I turn the volume past 1/4 the drivers are already seem to be moving like an inch in and out. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4836 Registered: Dec-04 | Andre, you have to give a better description of 'fuller' sound. Give it fuller depth, fuller mids, more feeling, man. Make the music sing, so we can dig it. James Taylor Live from the Beacon can hit the notes, shoots all the strings and lets the man sing...that recording is very sharp. The million dollar quartet' is as good as gold for oldies and oldies for 68ooo, alex. You really gotta dig it, man. Your gear has to have synergy, it's a full kit. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4837 Registered: Dec-04 | That receiver is a great place to start. Now for thr turntable... |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 44 Registered: Dec-06 | I have a turntable actually...It's sitting in storage but, it's a Technics Sl-29 I think. I don't know if it's of good quality of course |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4838 Registered: Dec-04 | How loud is up to you, Andre. I am half deaf. Huh?..Soory I am Canadian, pardon me? |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 45 Registered: Dec-06 | ??? Gee I dunno if you have a sense of humor but I have no idea what you're saying!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 48 Registered: Dec-06 | Oh I see what you're saying haha. Anyway, I figured it out. If I add a good pair of B&W's based on what I heard in the store it'll give me that powerful sound I like. Listen to Rage Against the Machine- Renegades of Funk and you'll see what I'm talking about if you add a good dose of bass onto that. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 51 Registered: Dec-06 | Another thing, when I play music and turn it up everything starts shaking and it's really annoying. Does anyone have an idea to stop this? Even the door starts rattling in its frame.. The room is (LxWxH) 10x11x8. Maybe this is just sheer compression. I have no idea. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4844 Registered: Dec-04 | Yeah, a volume governor. And a carpenter. Or play it louder, then you won't hear the rattles. What is that constant ringing? |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 58 Registered: Dec-06 | Are you saying you have tinitus? (Pretty sure I spelled it right) Well anyway, what I mean to ask is what is causing the main rattles like when there's a bass kick and stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9443 Registered: May-04 | . Resonance. Everything vibrates at a specific frequency when it is set in motion. The compression and rarefaction of the sound pressure created by the speakers is setting things in motion. You can move some things around to try to eliminate the vibration, you can tie somethings down with PlastiTak or a similar photo mounting cement, you can wedge something between some pieces to keep them from vibrating and you will have to live with some thing if the doors and walls are vibrating. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9444 Registered: May-04 | . Resonance. Everything vibrates at a specific frequency once it is set in motion. The compression and rarefaction of air pressure created by the speakers is setting things in motion. You can try moving things around, you can tie some things down with PlastiTak or a similar photo mounting cement, you can wedge something between offending objects and you will have to live with some noise if you are vibrating the walls and doors. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 76 Registered: Dec-06 | Yeah but my problem is the walls so I guess I'll just have to live with it unless I want to do a big rennovation to fix all resonance in the walls and doors (I'd probably soundproof then too). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4855 Registered: Dec-04 | Reset all the nails, and add sommore. |
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Bronze Member Username: Arande2Post Number: 84 Registered: Dec-06 | Might as well...(Yawn) later anyway |
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