Speakers for someone with sensative ears?
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-06 | I have very sensative ears to the point that I get headachs from high frequencys and was wondering if any of you guys could point me in the right direction to some speakers that aren't bright sounding. Even a little bright is too much, I have had Klipsch, Athena AS-F1s and currently SVS SB01 but all were too bright for my ears. I have a warm sounding receiver (Harmon Kardon AVR-235) And I have even experimented with room acoustic treatments with no luck. I have about $475 to spend for fronts and a center (Could go without the center if really needed) |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 90 Registered: Mar-06 | These speakers are not bright the way Klipsch are. Fronts: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000065USR Center: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005IA2W |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1114 Registered: Dec-03 | This speaker tends to start a slow roll off as it nears 20kHz. Pleasent tones without sounding flat. Excellent imaging means you could forego a center. I no longer sell my version of this speaker. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1464 Registered: Jun-05 | I would say check out the Onix X-LS for $219,their build quality and sound are off the charts,and they go down to 43htz,with a laid back warm sound with nice extension on the topend they are the best value on the planet,and the best speaker under $300 ever made bar none. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks for all the replys guys, Really apreciate it. The Onix X-LS's look very good. The only thing I am concerned about is audioholics gave there treble smoothness a 4 and a half rating. I know this is a long shot but has anyone here heard both the SVS SB01 setup and the Onix that could share there experiance? The SVS SB01's are very good its just that high treble that gets me. |
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Bronze Member Username: The13thgryphonSpokane, WA USA Post Number: 23 Registered: Jul-04 | Hi Nick, I have the same issue, but apparently to a much less degree. I cannot listen to speakers with metal dome tweeters without wanting to turn down the volume or stick ear plugs in my ears. Anyway, I am able to enjoy many different speakers that use silk or fabric dome tweeters. I find them, in general, to be smoother, sweeter, and less harsh. However, the SVS SB-01's that you refer to do have a textile dome tweeter, so obviously that alone won't work for you. You could try one of the following approaches: 1) Look for "romantic" sounding speakers such as Sonas Faber. 2) Check out "full range" speaker lines such as LothX, Lowther, McCain, Fostex, Doppenberg, etc. This will also limit the bass to a greater or lesser degree, as well as limiting the extension of the high end... but you can always get the low end back with a small sub if you find it too compromised. 3) Modify the crossover network to attenuate the level of the tweeter, or to roll off the tweeter above a particular frequency. I wish you the very best with your search. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | Wow thanks for the great post John! whereabouts should I set the crossover so that it attenuates the tweeter? If that doesn't work I will look into your other suggestion. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 721 Registered: Oct-04 | These Tekton Design Monitors are built around the Fostex FE167E 6" Full-Range Driver, for $330, they might be a "budget" alternative to the aforementioned RAW speakers: http://cgi.ebay.com/Tekton-Design-Fostex-Studio-Monitors-6inch-full-range Tekton also builds 4" versions ($300) and a 3" versions ($200) of this Full-Range Single-Driver speaker. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 722 Registered: Oct-04 | ...would speakers build around the KEF iQ Driver, like the Insignias sold by Best Buy for $49 be another suitable "budget" consideration? I've auditioned these speakers under less than optimal conditions at a Best Buy and my initial impression was very good, as they were FAR better than the Pioneers, Sonys & Yamahas I compared them to on the floor. I would need more time with them, and under better conditions, to get a fuller appreciation of these speakers with a "cult" following. |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 91 Registered: Mar-06 | Christopher, I could not locate a reference to the Insignias on this thread, but have the exact same conclusions. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1117 Registered: Dec-03 | Perhaps we need to talk about tonality as well. There's more to it than just limiting the high end. Speakers that have peaks in the upper mid-range are often perceived as being "bright" by some, others would say "forward". If you're looking for "warm" sound these types of speakers are not going to do it for you either. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks again guys, So do you have any recommendations for a warm sounding speaker? |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 723 Registered: Oct-04 | Srinivas, I was suggesting the Insignias because they utilize the KEF iQ (Full-Range? or Two-Way?) driver. It is a single-driver (or is it a Two-Way?) speaker that might be appealing to someone sensitive to higher frequencies, and cannot afford a speaker, like the RAW, built around the wonderful CSS FR125S driver, which is considerably more expensive. It was just a question, I'm not sure I'm right about the Insignia, but I am pretty certain the Tekton/Fostex 4" is a really good choice. http://cgi.ebay.com/Tekton-Design-Fostex-Studio-Monitors-4inch-full-range The 6" might have better all-around sound, but that's not exactly the objective of this thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1119 Registered: Dec-03 | I've worked extensively with the FE127E. Below is not a link to my work but is related. For those that may be interested: |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 724 Registered: Oct-04 | Tim, How would you compare the tonality of the FE127E compared to the FE167E? I would expect "fuller" sound from the larger driver. Are you a fan of the "whizzer" employed in the FE167E? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1120 Registered: Dec-03 | All of the FEAV series drivers have a very similar sound mostly due to the motor design and the banana fiber cone. The FE167E seems to cover a bit more range due to the larger cone and the whizzer. I'm not going to claim "fan" status but the whizzer works ok on the 167 as well as the 207. I would not recommend anyone perform a "whizzer-ectomy" in the hopes of improving the driver. I've tried putting a small ring of poly-wool around the whizzer but it causes more harm than good. Every one of the FEAV drivers I've measured have similar peaks in the upper mid-range. It appears to be a "design feature". You'll see on the Planet10 website what happens to that peak after modifications are made. Experimenting with the FE207E I removed the dust cap and installed a "phase plug" which helped that driver smooth out a bit. Whether that can be attributed to the plug or just the absence of the dust cap is open to debate. In any case, having the plug there is better than leaving it completely exposed. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-06 | Well im kinda lost, Im going to need a speaker thats not bright on both the mid and high frequencys but im not sure which ones to choose, The raw speakers seem good but I don't like the finish. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1121 Registered: Dec-03 | Nick, Do you have the ability to perform any kind of minor woodworking? If so, I recently assisted someone in building a pair of speakers that would be right up your alley. A pair of these for $83 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=302-700&DID=7 A pair of these for $70 http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=FR125S Two of these for $1.80 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-402 Two of these for about $6.00 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-302 So, for around $160 plus shipping and a little bit of your time you could have a nice pair of speakers. If you want to do a 6.1 system just build 2 more pair and add a sub. You could do a lot worse for the price. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 725 Registered: Oct-04 | Tim, FE127E does not employ a "wizzer" but has something that looks to be a cross between a dust cap & a phase plug. What is your impression of this driver in a SDFR design (like the Tekton) and as it relates to this discussion. On a different note, I see there are several new subwoofers from Adire Audio based on the XBL2 Motor, any chance of a new subwoofer from Alegria? |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-06 | Timn8ter: Those look really nice, I know I could handle the technical aspect of it but im not great with woodworking, It doesn't look like much woodworking is required though? I could handle minor stuff but I wouldn't be able to build a cabinet encloser. What would be required with building a set of those? Would they be videosheilded and what would the sound be like? Also would I just use an extra one of those for a center channel or one is not needed? Thanks for your help |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4630 Registered: Dec-04 | Nick, are you indeed able to build a cabinet, or have it done for you? Tim's list up there would be a very good trial for not much money. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1122 Registered: Dec-03 | Right, the 127 has a domed dust cap. I kinda like the FE127E for what it is. I find it easier on the ears than the 167. With the Planet10 mods and an appropriate cabinet it has the potential of being a fine DIY project. If you want bass out of them you'll have to use a TL type cabinet and forego high volume levels. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1123 Registered: Dec-03 | Nick, The only woodwork is cutting the holes for the drivers, port tubes and terminal cups. Relatively easy with hole saws and a drill. They are video shielded and sound wonderful. If you use a sub with them you can get very reasonable volume levels as well. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-06 | I could handle that with no problem, So I don't need a tweeter? Im guessing the tweeters are left out so the sound isn't bright? |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 726 Registered: Oct-04 | You can also check out this custom cabinet builder http://www.steinaudio.com/index.html |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 8 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks for the link Christopher, I probably wouldn't do very good adding the veneer though. A couple more questions if you guys dont mind: Where on the dayton cabinet should the woofer and tube be put and how far apart? What kind of wire and soldering stuff do I need? Do I need a center channel if i want a 5.1 setup? Thanks guys. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 9 Registered: Nov-06 | Timn8ter: Earlier you said "Perhaps we need to talk about tonality as well. There's more to it than just limiting the high end. Speakers that have peaks in the upper mid-range are often perceived as being "bright" by some, others would say "forward". If you're looking for "warm" sound these types of speakers are not going to do it for you either." Were you speaking of just the other brands like wharfedale or did you mean the CSS FR125S driver also? Sorry for all the questions. |
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New member Username: NickrhPost Number: 10 Registered: Nov-06 | Also nevermind the center channel question, I didn't realize the raw driver is the same. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 727 Registered: Oct-04 | With a coat of copper paint those MDF cabinets can look like these   |
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Bronze Member Username: NickrhPost Number: 11 Registered: Nov-06 | wow those look great, Unfortunatly im not good at painting either though and would have no place to do it in cold michigan weather  |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1124 Registered: Dec-03 | I made an error on my parts list. The drivers are $70 each, not per pair. Creative Sound has a "kit" they sell that has all the parts you would need for a pair except the cabinets for $140. Hard to beat that. Comparing the Fostex to the CSS; they are distinctly different sounding drivers. The CSS drivers are "laid back" and the Fostex are "forward" for lack of better terminology. The FR125S is a "full range" speaker not a woofer. There is no tweeter because it's not needed. This driver will play to 20kHz although it's just a bit down (-3db) at that point. If you decide to go this route shoot me an email and I'll help you with the details. timn8ter2002@yahoo.com Nuck has a pair of these so you could ask him how they sound. In case anyone is wondering, I have no financial stake in this whatsoever other than trying to promote good, affordable sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: NickrhPost Number: 12 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks Timn8ter, Just sent you an email. Would love to here how Nuck likes his  |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 728 Registered: Oct-04 | Tim, After all the info you've handed out for free around hear over the years, I don't think you need worry about what anyone around here thinks. Having said that, what's wrong with a little capitalism? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1125 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4634 Registered: Dec-04 | Nick, I don't have them in regular service at the moment (awaiting delivery of a tube amp). I ran the Alegria Ling speakers for a while in different locations and with different systems. For stands, I used wooden lightweights at 26" listening height, also had them plunked on top of mains speakers at 34". The systems range from H/K avr55 receiver to Computer card (CL Platinum X-1)with Super T-amp. Most recently the Lings were in concerto with my main kit, seen under my profile. The lings need a solid source of power to deliver to potential, and placement affects the results to a great degree. At one point, I could feel the bass on the upper level of the house, and the bass was omni-directional in the room. I think Tim uses a 30 wpc tube amp(or has) for his pair. The speakers are warm, full and very satisfying. That said, you are not going to get floorstander, 3-way type of response from the singles. If you are expecting big volumes with big bass, that ain't gonna happen. However, as your thread moves along, I would suggest you try the little darlin's out. My pair are going to be used for near field listening with a 18w tube amp. It looks like Christopher may be doing the same. I am not aware of a suitable break-in period for the driver, as mine were well enjoyed upon purchase(thus bought for a song). Harsh treble, even from the recording, does not expose itself in the presentation. Yet somehow, smooth highs do come through. However, as the rolloff comes along, it seems to happen a little early(always remember single driver). Please note* I have a recognized high tone hearing loss* |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1126 Registered: Dec-03 | SFRDs all suffer from "beaming". As the frequency increases the polar dispersion field decreases. So, at the very upper frequencies you have to be directly on-axis for them to be balanced with the rest of the spectrum. This is due to the diameter of the cone. The solution is to "toe-in" the speakers so they point at your listening position. When I start out designing a crossover for a multi-driver unit I calculate where the "beaming" is likely to begin and use that as my starting crossover frequency. The bass response from the FR125S is pretty impressive, however, it is not immune to another issue SFRDs have. The harder you drive the speaker the more excursion related distortion you're going to have. At moderate listening levels there is no problem. If you're trying to play bass heavy music or an explosive movie soundtrack at 90db or so that little 4.5" driver is going to run into trouble. The solution is the limit the excursion. The simplest method is to use an A/V receiver and subwoofer. Depending on how loud you're trying to go will help determine the crossover setting. Most of the time 80Hz is fine. If you're getting crazy up it to 100Hz. |
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Bronze Member Username: NickrhPost Number: 13 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks guys, These speakers sound like there going to be great. I will post after I build them to let you guys know how they came out. |
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Bronze Member Username: NickrhPost Number: 14 Registered: Nov-06 | I just had one more question, How much power would you say these need? I have a Harmon Kardon AVR-235 thats 50 watts per channel would that be enough? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1127 Registered: Dec-03 | That should be fine. HK is pretty conservative on their power ratings. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 729 Registered: Oct-04 | A pair of Pre-built CSS FR125S PAWO speakers for $400C (Says Candians shipping, but money talks). http://www.creativesound.ca/specials.html |
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Bronze Member Username: NickrhPost Number: 15 Registered: Nov-06 | That would be a pretty good deal if they were black. Are those speakers in the pic you posted yours Chris? If so how much did that cost for the cabinets if you don't mind me asking? I think im going to go threw Stein but it would depend on if he can do the finishing for me but he sells a cabinet on his site that is finished with veneer so maybe that wouldn't be a problem. I sent him an email so we'll see. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 730 Registered: Oct-04 | Neither pair are mine. I downloaded these pics from SDFR boards. I've wanteed to build a pair of FR125S, even bought a pair, but I never got around to it. Stein gave me a quote of $99 for these plans in raw MDF.  |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 542 Registered: Mar-04 | well definately avoid metal dome tweeters if you hate brightness. soft domes tend to be alot softer in the last octave. if EVERYTHING you listen too still gives you a headache, you might consider just rolling the HF off with an equalizer. the digital behringer DEQ24/96 units are great for making most systems alot flatter than even much higher priced gear, but you could just as easily dial in the EXACT amount of HF rolloff that your ears are comfortable with through trial and error with such a system. at just $300 with a calibrated mic, you could flatten your bass-midrange as well as tame the HF and be able to see exactly what you're getting easily. |
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