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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 318 Registered: Jan-05 | I was looking at Jolida and Stanling tube amps and came across this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MA-XDSE-King-300B-Stereo-Valve-Tube-Integrated-Amp-svbk_W0 QQitemZ300046595935QQihZ020QQcategoryZ3280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Ever heard of 'music angel' anybody? It looks good and could be a bargin. Any insite would be nice since I know bugger all about tube amps just they're aclaimed to sound a lot more dynamic and transparent. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4572 Registered: Dec-04 | JJ, if you have a lot of time and a big jug of coffee, I suggest 'tube talk' here. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/111344.html In short, a 300B setup is aggresive. The input tubes do not seem a great match for the 300B's, but thats just me. Looks like a good starter amp, the speakers must match-up well. Of course everyting must match-up well. I know about 1 step more than you in the tube dep't, never had one, I will pick up on the e-bay you posted(not the same one, of course). If you follow the tube talk archives, you will have the best course in tubes I have seen yet. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9337 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - Where'd you find info on the input tubes? All I get when I follow the link is a page for placing a bid. A 300B tube amp is not for beginners. The 300B tube is a triode type output tube which produces very little wattage, typically less than ten watts. While I can't tell from the bid page, most 300B amps are single ended which means you need to know quite a bit about both tube amps and speakers appropriate for use with a small wattage triode based amplifier. Jumping in at the deep end of the pool is, in this case, a pretty sure way to drown. Furthermore, the replacement tubes for this amp begin at a modest $300 or so for the output tubes. Depending on the amplifier, you might need to replace output tubes every year or so. Read the link Nuck provided, there's lots of good information in there to get you started on tubes. But I would certainly suggest you begin your life with tubes by choosing a more conventional pentode based, push pull amp that uses output tubes such as EL34, 6L6GC, KT66, KT88, 6550, etc. With these tubes you will have wattage that should be no less than 35 watts per channel and up to 100 watts. You will also have an amplifier that doesn't let the speaker drive its outputs as most single ended amps do. Stick with the Jolida and leave the odd ball amps for later. . |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 712 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, Can you can please help me understand the advantages & disadvantages of these two designs: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=306-100 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=306-102 Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4590 Registered: Dec-04 | http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MA-XDSE-King-300B-Stereo-Valve-Tube-Integrated-Amp-svbk_W0 QQitemZ300046595935QQihZ020QQcategoryZ3280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ShippingPayment The inputs ar 6XSL-7 and a knock off to boot. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4591 Registered: Dec-04 | Note the tall valance on the mating skirt, tell-tale for a wanna-be. Pardon me, a non-original. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4592 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, thank you for your post. Tube Talk really should be resurrected, the influx of well reviewed toobs deserves our attention, knowledge like yours even more so. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4593 Registered: Dec-04 | * Integrated stereo amplifier * Push pull class AB design for efficiency plus accuracy * Four line level inputs * High fidelity output transformers * Heavy gauge cold roll steel housing * Handsome brushed aluminum faceplate, feet, and knobs * Selectable grounding to eliminate 60Hz hum * Anti-static clear coat finish * Selectable 110V/220V input voltage * Hand-made quality craftsmanship * Excellent vocal and midrange performance * Works well with four or eight ohm speakers * Gold plated connections * Uses three-6SN7GT and four-EL34 tubes * One-year manufacturer's warranty CM, lets work throught these features one at a time. Push-pull=accuracy, well yeah, but SET is more accurate. Add the usual trade-offs. Selectable grounding. Grounding has been optional since before dirt. Grounding of the transformers is the easiest form of contouring output(before distortion), in a minimalist system like this. My Dodge has an anti-static clear coat finish. Hand Made quality finish. My Dodge falls short, good on the amp. The output taps are 4 or 8 ohm taps, no allowance for the old standard 16 ohm's . Oh well, times they are a changing, I supposee the Splendor3/5's are out of luck.The input tubes, 6SN7's are just adequate. A good matsh for the output 34 tubes, but a bit short, in my opinion. Largely dependant on the origin of manufacture, as well. Gosh, I need a drink before looking into your next choice...This amp looks OK so far |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4594 Registered: Dec-04 | This amp is a SET, with 9w/channel. If you do not have a Klipch 105db speaker set-up(or equivelent) do not try this at home. Instead, see the Super T-amp. And my Dodge still needs a wax job. Little Pink Houses... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9341 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - I'm afraid I can't agree that single ended amps are more accurate. I won't say they are less accurate but your statement is too broad to be true. There are definite reasons why a single ended amp might not be more accurate in the real world. Push-pull and single ended are merely connection techniques and don't equate to a more accurate amplifier in either connection mode. The amps appear to be the same amp for all intents and the difference is no more (as indicated in print) than one is single ended and the other is push-pull. I seriously doubt there are significant differences between the two amps in terms of circuitry. CM - The amp with four output tubes is a push-pull amp. Specifications: *Measured power output: 35 watts RMS x 2 *Frequency response: 10 Hz - 100 KHz *THD: < 0.1% *Hum and noise: < 0.5mv *Line input: 4 pairs RCA inputs *Input impedance: 100Kohms *Input sensitivity: 1.0v P-P *Output impedance: 4 to 8 ohms *Tube compliment: 3-6SN7GT, 4-EL34 *Weight: 36 lbs.*Dimensions: 10-1/2" W x 7" H x 15" D. Integrated stereo amplifier Push pull class AB design for efficiency plus accuracy. See, Nuck, it says it's accurate. The amp with two output tubes is a single ended amplifier. Specifications: *Measured power output: 9 watts RMS x 2 *Frequency response: 20 Hz - 65 KHz *THD: < 0.3% *Hum and noise: < 1.3mv *Line input: 4 pairs RCA inputs *Input impedance: 100Kohms *Input sensitivity: 1.0v P-P *Output impedance: 4 to 8 ohms *Tube compliment: 1-5AR4, 2-6SN7GT, 2-EL34 *Weight: 34.5 lbs.*Dimensions: 10-1/2" W x 7" H x 15" D. Integrated stereo amplifier Single ended class A design for uncompromised performance. (This is a lie since single ended amplfiers are easily compromised by the wrong choice of speaker.) Most push-pull amps used for consumer audio run in class AB, so there is nothing groundbreaking in the first amp. Class AB amps actually run in class A for a small per centage of their rated output power. How much depends on the amplifier but at low levels the amp will stay in class A with that operational mode's lower notch distortion. All single ended amplifiers, by their very nature, can only run in class A. So there is still nothing new to this amp. The output tubes used in this amp are the same as the push-pull amp which indicates the single ended amp has the EL34's connected as triodes instead of pentodes as they would normally operate. This results in the lower power output from the same tube and wastes the advantages of pentode operation (which is merely the ability to produce more power from the same number of tubes). (Keep in mind a pentode has a different distortion component than a triode. Not better or worse necessarily, just different. A push-pull amp also has a different distortion make up than a single ended amplifier. Put the two together and the amps will sound quite different from each other running the same speaker.) In my opinion, if you want triodes, buy triodes. Don't make an amplifier be something it doesn't want to be. However, power pentodes ($50 per matched pair) are much lower priced than power triodes ($300 per matched pair) and the pentodes can be run as triodes by simply making a few different connections inside the amplifier. It is currently fashionable to have a pentode based amplifier (often running EL34's) that you can switch into triode mode to hear the "magic" of the simpler tube structure. It's just my opinion again, but buy an amplifier that doesn't try to do tricks and just plays music. Otherwise, I don't see any differences that would indicate anything different between the two amplifiers. Single ended amps have a high-ish output impedance and lower power output. (The "output impedance" listed in the specs is the impedance tap off the output transformer and not the actual output impedance of either amplifier.) The former, high output impedance, means the speaker's impedance curve will drive the amplifier's frequency response and extreme care should be taken in selecting an appropriate loudspeaker for this amplifier. The latter, low power output, means you will have to have a very high sensivity in your speakers, at least 90dB, and they must be a simple, non-reactive load. These two amps are out of the Chinese tube amp market that is flooding the Western audio markets. There are some very good values in these new pieces made by companies that were early on the scene. At the present time, there are a lot of "me too" companies that are taking advantage of the dollar to yuan imbalance. I suspect the market will shake itself out soon as the Chinese eventually must bring their prices in line with the rest of the market, not only in audio but all things "Made in China". If you are considering one of these amplifiers, consider also the company might or might not be around after the shake down. I am expecting a lot of disappointed tube amp owners who cannot get the amps fixed in a few years. Buyer beware. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9342 Registered: May-04 | . "The inputs ar 6XSL-7 ..." So, what do you have against 6XSL-7's? " ... and a knock off to boot." A knock off of what? I don't see any labels. Even if there are, lots of companies re-label their tubes with their own company name. . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4574 Registered: Dec-03 | Excellent, Nuck and Jan. JJ must be away reading "Tube Talk". |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 713 Registered: Oct-04 | Thank you Jan. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 319 Registered: Jan-05 | I stayed away from the ebay 'bespoke' amp. I'll stick to your advise Jan and go with more mainstream Jolida stuff. First time ive been back to this post, im surprised theres so much feedback. Thanks =). I'll definately give that tube talk a read when I buy a big enough jug for that coffee I'll need!! My speakers are 86db sensitivity, so I think a 9watt tube amp would struggle driving them. Nuck, Ive read about the super t-amp before. Also read its more a short term kind of solution. I actually almost bought the Jolida 1301a hybrid but saw no possible way to connect a subwoofer. When you say an input-what does this refer to? I thought there were only output tubes or is the input a part of the circutary inside? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9344 Registered: May-04 | . I don't mean to imply the differences between a single ended and a push-pull amplifier are minor. By no means was the move to push-pull considered just another connection technique. Push-pull and the Williamson amplifier that soon followed were considered major steps forward at the time they arrived on the market. The Williamson topology was the beginning of what is generally considered to be the first truly high fidelity amplifier. http://usuarios.uninet.com.br/~edelima/REASONS.htm http://www.operaudio.com/company/single.htm http://www.aikenamps.com/SingleEnded.htm http://www.gibson.com/Products/Amplifiers/Amp%20Sub%20Pages/Amp%20Academy/Amp%20 Academy%20Session%201/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_amplifier As you read the articles, you should see that each design topology can also be connected in a parallel output configuration to achieve more power and a lower output impedance. You should also see that each design style solves certain problems while often introducing other conflicts with the goal of producing high fidelity sound quality. As a general rule, the effort in amplifier design has too often been the reduction of manufacturing cost (a single ended amplifier's transformer is substantially more expensive to construct and ship than a push-pull amplifier's) and to get the numbers to look good on paper. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9345 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/193312.html https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/209464.html . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4576 Registered: Dec-03 | JJ, In UK there is Icon Audio which gets rave reviews from HiFi News and some amps have switchable triode/pentode modes. www.iconaudio.co.uk (Jan was not enthusiastic about switching to triode, if I remember correctly) Also www.affordablevalvecompany.co.uk I have a PrimaLuna Prologue Two. It sells through retailers, unlike the two mentioned above. You'll be able to audition on somewhere in your area. http://www.pistolmusic.co.uk/ I also have 86 dB speakers and find 40 W p.c. is fine. Though I would not go much lower. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 320 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, total human information server lol. Looked at the three websites and the equipment is pricey. The primaluna prologue 2 is 1k! Definately out of my budget here. Im surprised you said 40wpc is as low as you'd go. If this is a tube amplifier shouldnt that be over 100 watts equivalent to a solid state regardless of the impedance or does it regard impedance? You quad speakers are huge compared to mine. Mine are bookshelfs I want to get the most out of. Theyre the diamond 8.1s which are very revealing but I feel they lack a definitive soundstage. I currently use these with a small cheap subwoofer, never the less I love these greatly. They're my first hi-fi speaker and i paid peanuts for them =D. I just dont want to follow the mainstream and get a nad etc yet i want a subwoofer for the type of music i listen to. Know of anything similiar to jolida/ jolida hybrid amp capable of connecting a subwoofer for around £300-£400? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4580 Registered: Dec-03 | JJ, I'm stuck for suggestions. If you would like a valve amp at that price it is either a kit or second-hand. I bought my speakers second-hand from one of the dealers advertising at the back of HiFiNews. The 8.1s are exceptional speakers, so I read in magazines. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4605 Registered: Dec-04 | A different animal at a different price. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D300047815355&ssPageName=AD ME:B:EOIBSA:CA:31 |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 321 Registered: Jan-05 | A kit sounds fun but if I messed up then I'd only kick myself for many weeks after! Second hand does sound a good idea. The ebay item went for a pretty decent price considering the postage was high. Although as covered above arent the tubes very pricey to replace and need replacing every year.. I do like my diamonds, initially i was greately disspointed, thought dull and flat. They take yonks to break in. I effectively tuned my own amp since Im running them off an old subwoofer. I used hardware effects adjusting various frequencies finely using patchmix dsp on my emu0404 soundcard. Took some time but changed my diamonds greatly. I know they can perform better though! |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1056 Registered: May-05 | JJ, Take a look at this as an alternative or take a look at anything on Audiogon. Good luck and no I'm not selling it, Dave. |