The Audio Critic: The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 631 Registered: Oct-04 | I found this an interesting read and can't say I disagree with a word of it, but then again I'm no expert. http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3626 Registered: Feb-05 | Silliness. We've been here before on this forum and are not likely to agree but I find that to be ridiculous. There is a kernal of truth to some of it which allows the writer to extrapolate outward and onward to far beyond the reaches of many of our own actual experiences. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 632 Registered: Oct-04 | Are there any of the TEN points that that you would 100% AGREE with? Are there any points that you consider flat-out WRONG? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9274 Registered: May-04 | . 100% agree: #5 Flat out wrong; every conclusion the author draws from his poorly conceived and deterministic "logic". . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3627 Registered: Feb-05 | I no longer use power conditioners but not because I don't believe that they can help but because I find that they cause more of a negative change for me than a positive one. Since I'm at work I'll have to leave it at that until I get home. Jan and I don't agree about much but I think we have found some common ground here. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4465 Registered: Dec-04 | I don't give a shite what the Egghead says about my bi-wire, cd polishing or my neurotic cat. If I hear it,there it is. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 219 Registered: Apr-06 | This article has been around a while, and has stirred a debate or two. In the end, who to believe is your own ears. From my own personal experience: 1: I've heard *some* minor differences in wiring in the past. At one point I used a standard 16 gauge wire for a 10' run (which should have been more than sufficient). I switched to a twisted 12 gauge wire, and did note some difference in dynamics. 2. Not enough experience with tubes to make a determination. However, I would imagine that one could color a SS amp any way one liked, and could make a tube-like sound. 3. Every LP I've heard sounds like poopy because of wear and tear now. I've also heard well recorded CD's and crappily recorded CD's. However, I would expect a new properly recorded LP would likely demolish a crappily recorded CD. 4. I tend to believe in blind testing. 5. Agree. 6. Generally agree. I've never experienced a cable burn in... 7. Never bi-wired to know. 8. I've noted a marked difference with my voltage regulating UPS, due to the fact that I have a lot of voltage dips in my power grid. I had previously noted straining at times when there should have been none; it is not an issue any longer. 9. I would tend to believe it. While I can't claim to have tried any treatments for CD's, I work with computers for a living and have never had a problem reading data from any CD's that weren't marred. I don't imagine it would read the data "better" with green marker on the CD. 10. More or less true. By all accounts, I have great hearing, but I still am learing what all to listen for. |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 56 Registered: Mar-06 | #7, when the engineers at Dynaudio add a second set of terminals, will do bi-wire first thing tomorrow morning after returning from Home Depot. Is this Halloween or Groundhog Day? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9275 Registered: May-04 | . "Crappily"? Doesn't it have two l's? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9276 Registered: May-04 | . "Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:13 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ya'll need to try the Pledge.....simple with fabulous results. Yippeeeeee!!!!!! https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/267242.html . |
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Bronze Member Username: MarsdenCapital City Post Number: 29 Registered: Oct-06 | Thanks Christopher, that was a fun read, and new to me. Tend to agree with it, some parts more than others. And the author is certainly strongly opinionated. OTOH it's hard for me to get testy with anyone who can write a line like "...but in the byways and tributaries of the audio world, in unregenerate high-end audio salons and the listening rooms of various tweako mandarins, it remains the party line."  |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 220 Registered: Apr-06 | ""Crappily"? Doesn't it have two l's?" Neither shows up as a word on dictionary.com |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3628 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually the Zaino Z-6 alone without the Pledge works even better :-)! A debate without an issue...if you hear the differences keep it up (whatever "it" is) and if you don't...so be it. |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 79 Registered: Mar-06 | I'm probably lucky my system has glaring defects and not subtle ones. Lol. |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 59 Registered: Mar-06 | Subjectively, fully agree on an objective basis. Throwing in Room Acoustics in my listening room, I guarantee that I have a sonic mudpie. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Nagasakibomb.jpg (ok enough already) |
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Silver Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 193 Registered: May-06 | Sonic mudpie? There's a new fix out to fix that problem. |
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Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 846 Registered: Dec-03 | The person who wrote it is not a true audiophile ! I hear a difference on almost all of them - if you don't, ignorance is your bliss - but don't ruin it for others who do hear the difference. Probably it was written with the best intention of saving people's money, but he/she doesn't have a golden ear - and there are people with them ! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1497 Registered: May-05 | Thanks James. We weren't aware of that. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 662 Registered: Oct-04 | Who here has magic ears? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 205 Registered: May-06 | Is it magic ears or is it trained listening? Some folks don't hear any nuances, I move my speakers an inch or so or sit too far back into my couch and I hear differences. Then there are those differences one hears because they "expect" to I suppose. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 663 Registered: Oct-04 | Perhaps, but I've met my share of arrogant audiophile elitist who in the face of science, logic & contrary "expert" opinion & comparison, insist that things are the way they see it, or more accurately hear it. Wire/Cable debates seem to be a grand illustration of this time & time again. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1498 Registered: May-05 | Chris - I didn't believe in cable differences until I A/B'ed some in my system. I posted results here if you're interested - https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/231830.html |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 664 Registered: Oct-04 | Stu Thanks, I will give that thread a thorough read-through ASAP, but let me go on the record that there certainly IS a difference in cable quality, I think it probably has much to do with the quality of insulation & shielding than with exotic materials. I've noticed differences in component cables in my HDTV set-up, but those difference have in no way correlated to price. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4493 Registered: Dec-04 | A basic quality cable will humble'out of the box' cables, 'cept'n maybe Naim and Rega. The upgrades from there are dependent upon gear and ear. One step works for me just fine. Classe,SonicLink Groetz. |
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New member Username: KretonPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | Christopher, I don't think it matters being an expert unless you do professional work. For home audio, pleasure stuff, the king is our ears. Otherwise experts and golden eared people would dictate us what to do. I didn't like the tone of the article, it is too pushy. Regarding what's in there, I don't care about cables, power conditioner. cd treatment (think they do not work) but this Peter Aczel guy does some misrepresentation when it comes to vacuum tubes. I support no sides between tubes and solis state but in my Classe Audio amplified system I changed my pre amplifier to Audio Research Reference Two Tube pre-amp. The result ??? Oh my, I get a lot more three dimensional sound than before and the tube slightly softens the tough Classe so I get a wonderful combination that works wonders in many kinds of music. I would strongly suggest that you guys listen to a solid state power + tube preamp combination. Eczel's weird phrase, "deluded audiophile's imagination" is not only rude to the level of misserving that magazine, but also makes me think that he has come contempt towards hi end stuff or people who sell these. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 665 Registered: Oct-04 | Kreton, "Eczel's weird phrase, "deluded audiophile's imagination" is not only rude to the level of misserving that magazine..." I think the condition does actually exist, how else do you explain spending thousands, sometimes in excess of 10 & 11-thousand, on speaker cables. I know you can use the "which keeps better time, a $3-digital watch or a $50K handmade Swiss chronograph?" analogy, and the point is well taken. I'd never tell the guy who purchases a $75K pair of Wilsons to use lamp-cord as speaker cable, but neither would I try to convince him that he needs to spend thousands & thousands of $$$ on speaker cables when I can't state categorically that there will, to his ear, be an absolute preferred sound streaming from those speakers when he does so. Clearly I'm no salesman. These sort of articles are written for the general public and not those amongst us committed to an extreme pursuit of virtually, or actual, intangibles in sound, and have the means to indulge themselves. It is easy, for the lay person to come to the conclusion that their set-up is deficient unless they use the arsenal of junk & snake-oil passed off by this A/V industry as essential. |
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New member Username: KretonPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-06 | Oh, he says it about tubes, not cables. And since tubes made a big difference in my stereo (and my girlfriend then accepted this too) I can not agree with him. Regarding cables, I agree. Once I tried MIT cables, giant cables with something like a network in them and they did not make the slightest difference so I did not buy. Excessive spending is soo common especially in luxury goods. Cars, boats (why call them yachts?), jewelry, just name it. It's the prestige, excitement, Jones's factor. Watches are very good examples. I am not wearing even a plastic a watch. Those 50K (or 100K+) watches are being made by CNC machines and then assembled by hand. Can not imagine the profit margin. The world is full of extremely rich people who will pay enormous monies should you find a way to make them feel very special. And in audio too **some** manufacturers will obviously go for the 'emperor's clothes'. You are right about the general public-audio enthusiast point. God help people who will seek to buy high end stuff. I heard a good number of horror stories from people who get bad treatment by snob salespersons as they walk into a shop. Bang & Olufsen knows how to catch these people and make a sale though...Sad ! |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 666 Registered: Oct-04 | Kreton, It is sad because not everyone who wants to listen to music or build a home theater, and recognises the differences between a Samsung HTIB & a nicely matched separate component set-up, has the time to sort through this mess like the rest of us, so they depend on professionals to steer them in the right direction. It's also tough because the big chains hire novices & semi-idiots (for the most part) that don't know their @sses from the elbows, and the boutiques depend on pushing their big-ticket products to pay the bills, they also attract the audio-guru salesman types, the ones that don't have the time to educate a shopper, or at least that's been my experience.. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4494 Registered: Dec-04 | It is easy, for the lay person to come to the conclusion that their set-up is sufficient unless they use the arsenal of opportunities provided by the audio industry. Little things can mean so much. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 668 Registered: Oct-04 | Like this stuff Nuck? http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?spkrmoni&1163557754 |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4495 Registered: Dec-04 | Of course I have them everywhere, Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4496 Registered: Dec-04 | Look, you can call cables, speaker leads and power cords snake oil all you want. Some things work for some people, some don't. Bi-wire or not, I do not give a rat's hiney. The tech that works for me may not work for someone else's kit. Fine. But if anybody tells me I am wrong, well bad on them. Just like me, if I say anyone else is wrong. Sometimes stuff just works, y'know? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 206 Registered: May-06 | Kreton, I am all over that Pre-amp Tube / Amp Solid State, see my profile. Christopher, I would agree that the sales force can drive an uninformed consumer to potentially unnecessary expenses. To that end I say it is the consumers fault, if he / she truly wants to expand into quality audio, to not seek out a professional salesperson whom they develop a rapport with. The more this salesperson knows about your intentions and desires the better they can shape a system or provide options to improve your existing set up. I was under the impression that my 15 year old Carver M-4.0t amps would not be adequate in today's higher end audio systems. Not only did the folks on this forum decry that logic, my dealer also encouraged I try the Carver in my system. I put one in and had the second one refurbished. I then swapped the refurbished amp into my system. The refurbishment cost me less than $300 USD. To upgrade from the Carver I would have to spend about 10 times that. My point is I can see where folks can get caught up and spend money that need not be spent in pursuit of audio nirvana. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 672 Registered: Oct-04 | Michael, I think my point was that it is increasingly difficult, given the present day economic/business dynamic, to find reputable professional sales people, but I'm not sure it was ever any different. 30 years ago it was speakers, receivers, amps, turntables, 8-tracks, and a few other things. Today there is an absolute plethora of equipment (By the way, I did review your profile. Impressive.). The task of becoming familiar with all of it, for the average consumer who can't walk into Lyric Hi-Fi in NYC and say "...I want that, that, and that, I don't care what the price is", or have a salesperson perform the equivalent task for them, it quit daunting. I like list & buyers guides for the most part, at least it's a starting point from which to work from. That's kind of why I liked this article, it's rational advise from which to work from, even though your personal experiences might lead you to other conclusions, as many here will testify to. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 673 Registered: Oct-04 | Michael, How do you like the Mirage Omnisats? Which model do you own? I'm considering picking up a pair of Micros. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9309 Registered: May-04 | . "I think my point was that it is increasingly difficult, given the present day economic/business dynamic, to find reputable professional sales people, but I'm not sure it was ever any different." It was always different than you describe and hopefully always will be different. The consumer drives the market, if they buy from the internet because they save $10, they will eventually loose the small, independent dealer. If they shop the independent dealer and then still buy to save $10, they have no concept of what they are doing to themself and everyone else. It is akin to spoiling the environment and then expecting the next guy to make it up. The consumer gets what the consumer says they want. That is a centuries old axiom that will never be wrong. If they don't want to support independent shops, there will be no independent shops. I've sold in enough shops to know there are always lousy salespeople who think selling anything is an easy life. How do they survive? They usually suggest they can give the customer something that is too good to be true. When the customer lets their own greed drive their decisions, lousy salespeople survive. High end audio is one of the many industries where the dedicated sales staff is there because they are interested in the product and want to spread their enthusiam to other people. If the client doesn't want that enthusiam, they don't have to buy from any one salesperson. Sales is more often than not a matter of two personalities clicking. You can be the most well versed salesperson for one person and a complete jerk to the next. I've never worked with a salesperson who didn't have a story about some customer they would gladly drag behind their pick-'em-up truck. But, if the customer decides not to buy high end audio, or to do so from some other source other than an independent shop, for whatever reason, there will soon be no other choice. Do not blame the sales staff. They are there to make a living and most of them are trying to do their best will a customer base who are increasingly placing dollars above common sense. . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 207 Registered: May-06 | Christopher, The Mirages are the Omnipolar model. They do an excellent job of filling a modest size room and I am really impressed with their clarity. On another thread I pointed out where I picked them up at Tweeter on clearance for less than $70 USD each. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 674 Registered: Oct-04 | "I think my point was that it is increasingly difficult, given the present day economic/business dynamic, to find reputable professional sales people, but I'm not sure it was ever any different." "It was always different than you describe and hopefully always will be different." So you point is that it's easy to find reputable sales help, and it always was, and ever shall be? Perhaps your sales experience provides you with a different perspective than most, or simply my own. "Do not blame the sales staff. They are there to make a living and most of them are trying to do their best will a customer base who are increasingly placing dollars above common sense." I would suggest that their "best" in most instances leaves a lot to be desired. Starbucks has done a wonderful job educating the dollar conscious public about $4 a cup coffee, even the electronics industry (after quite a bit of delay) is convincing the dollar conscious public about superiority of $3000 HDTVs, Maytag washing machines, Viking ovens, Sub-Zero refrigerators, the list goes on & on. Why is it that there is increasing demand for Bose'ish audio systems? Space? perhaps, but I would argue it's because of Bose itself, and it's blitzkrieg approach to advertising. I have never seen a commercial for NAD or Marantz, never for Paradigm or B&W. How can you possibly compete with likes of Bose & Apple when the consumers are absolutely oblivious to your existence? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9311 Registered: May-04 | . "How can you possibly compete with likes of Bose & Apple when the consumers are absolutely oblivious to your existence?" **************************** That is the fault of the sales staff? I don't know a high end audio salesperson who doesn't see the value of teaching their clients about high end audio. I don't think your argument holds treu to a logical inevitability. First, would you rather have a piece of equipment that is built like Bose but everyone knows the name or to the standard of at least a Prima Luna and a few well educated people know about its quality? The money must come from somewhere and go somewhere. *************************** Compare the audio market to the camera market. Everyone wants a camera or camcorder. They are not only de riguer, they are for many people a necessity. Canon and Nikon have dropped their quality to produce mass market items. This introduces their name to the buying public, but since these items have become disposable electronics, there is no customer loyalty to make a second, similar brand name purchase when the first unit wears out. Then you have Leica which does no mass market advertising, costs an arm and a leg, can only be purchased at the specialty dealer and doesn't wear out in a life time. It's unlikely the average camcorder buyer who doesn't even know the name Leica will eventually wander into a specialty shop to actually even try one out, but the specialty dealers survive, for the most part because they carry a product that people grow into as their perceived needs rise. There are plenty of other reasons for a camera shop to succeed when an audio shop next door might not but that is not my point. Yet. I opened my Sunday paper today to find that Denon and Boston Acoustics are now sold in Circuit City. I lay much of the blame for the demise of the higher end audio industry on the industry itself. Today many of the companies I sold as an exclusive, specialty manufacturer have been co-opted into the mass market, big box stores in order to constantly produce a more intense market-penetration and supposedly higher profits. Other than the true high end market, there are virtually no "specialty" manufacturers who won't allow their product into a big box shop of some kind, either brick and mortar or internet. When the lower priced, specialty companies that used to draw people into the independent dealer are now available everywhere, at discounted prices, there is no reason for the average buyer to learn there is something better or to experience something other than a big box atmosphere. When I began selling audio in 1974 two things existed which really no longer are available in the strategy for an independent dealer. First, I grew people from a Yamaha and Boston Acoustics system to a McIntosh and Quad system because they first bought the lower priced system at my shop and they were exposed to better equipment and sound at that time. Secondly, When I began selling, the concept of knowing your client and developing a working relationship reigned supreme in high end audio. Today, neither is a good operating principle for independents. There is no more customer loyalty to a dealer than there is manufacturer's loyalty to a small, independent shop. Both exist, if at all, only in the highest price ranges. People now do not know about McIntosh and Quad because they never go to a dealer who stocks such items and can display them properly. If you don't get young people to eat their vegetables, they probably won't eat vegetables when they grow up. Or, if you don't introduce your child to fine art and good music when they are young, they won't know what they are missing as an adult. Go to a classical music concert and count the number of young people that are in attendance. The same rule applies to audio. If Dad has a home theater and a MP-3 player, does that really teach the child to seek out better audio? Music in your home is now a convenient commodity decison for most people. Amazingly this is true even as they buy components which get increasingly feature laden and beyond their ability to comprehend. Even decades ago when I asked my clients if they ever heard live, un-amplified music, the resounding answer I got from most of them was, "Never". When I asked if they ever sat and just listened to music without doing anything else, the answer was, "Seldom." This was true even before the days of the internet, Xbox, 500 channel satellite TV, etc. which draw time away from just listening to music. What then is to draw this person into a high end shop if what they might perceive as "better" audio can be purchased at a discounter where the emphasis is on discount and the item is sold off a jam packed shelf where lights and features are the selling point. The quality of music reproduction is not auditioned since the seller isn't set up to evaluate the sound quality. This does not draw people to the next level of performance in audio gear. Next, my experience tells me that building a client base is very difficult today since the average client has been convinced everything must be sold at a discount. I have had people undercut me on the internet for $50 on a $10k system. There are a few people who understand the meaning of what they get from a high end dealer, but most won't buy a cheap DVD player from that dealer because they can get it for $20 less at the big box. And everyone now needs a DVD player, a TV, a refrigerator, a washing machine, etc. They do not feel they need a very good stereo system. Additionally, other than the TV, not one of those items even has to be plugged in to be sold. And the TV doesn't have to be set up to look good since most people don't have a clue as to how to pick a good TV. (Believe me, I know this one is true.) Would you buy a high end system from a dealer who lined all their speakers together on one wall and ran a single CD loop through a switch box to all of them? No, because you expect something different from the high end shop. If everything was built like Bose and all things worked the same way like a PC, you could live with that arrangement. But that's not what you do, or should, expect from a high end dealer. ******************************* "So you point is that it's easy to find reputable sales help, and it always was, and ever shall be? Perhaps your sales experience provides you with a different perspective than most, or simply my own. "Do not blame the sales staff. They are there to make a living and most of them are trying to do their best will a customer base who are increasingly placing dollars above common sense." I would suggest that their "best" in most instances leaves a lot to be desired." Did I say it was easy to find good sales help? I don't believe I did. Ask any high end audio shop owner how easy it is to find a good sales staff. And to keep them. These are people who need to feed themself and possibly a family. How many high end audio sales people do you know who you think make the wages of a semi-decent car salesperson? Or a pharmaceutical rep? Every salesperson fights the idea that they are a bad salesperson right out of the box. How much do we enjoy it? How much do you think? But, if you don't give these salespeople a chance to prove they are better, or to actually get better, at selling audio, how do you expect it to happen? I'm sorry if your experience has been unpleasant. I don't doubt that you might have stumbled across a lousy salesperson, they are out there. But let me ask you something. If you got lousy service at a high end dealership, what did you do? Did you go to another dealer and just write that bad experience off? Did you go to the manager of the store where you got bad service and tell the manager you and the salesperson didn't get along together? If so, did you ask to be paired with another salesperson? Like I said, sales is a game of personalities. One bad salesperson doesn't make the whole staff lousy. One bad salesperson for you doesn't mean that salesperson isn't going to sell a $50k system to someone else. Did you stick it out at high end dealers because you wanted something that you could only find at a high end dealer? Or did you blow it off all together and either buy nothing or buy what you wanted off the internet? If you had a bad experience with a salesperson at a Big Box store, what did you do? Did you complain to the manager? Did you let the shop know they have a lousy salesperson? Or, did you just say, "That's exactly what I expected when I walked in here", and buy the product you wanted anyway? Which route do you think keeps lousy salespeople on the floor? Which route keeps the small, independent dealers in business and having good salespeople? I never said there weren't lousy salespeople. There are lousy everythings. Lousy lawyers, lousy doctors, lousy mechanics, etc. People have come to expect service to be lousy and they accept it all too willingly. Except at high end audio dealers where they expect much more than they do hardly anywhere else. If you accept bad service anywhere, you get what you really want because you don't demand better. When people treat something as a necessity and demand that their specific needs be met, the whole system rises. This is where places like Starbucks have done well. Starbucks has, in my opinion, not educated people about coffee so much as they have made something people consider a necessity very convenient to get at Starbuck's. How many people come into a Starbucks and ask for fair trade coffee? If Starbucks were really doing a good job of educating people, that's what would be happening. I think so, at least. Starbucks is convenient and it's affordable. They do not have salespeople at Starbucks, they have order takers. In and out and no one at Starbucks is expected to do anything more for you than get you that cup of coffee in two minutes or less and not take your head off doing it. Starbucks has no real responsibilty if you decide to throw the whole thing out in an hour because you don't like it now that you've tasted it. Contrast that to a high end salon. Do you get to bring a few of your own favorite cups into a Starbucks and sit for a few hours while you audition the various flavors each day before you make a decision which you'll pay for? Will Starbucks grind a new flavor for you if you don't like the ones they have today? Will they unpack and plug in another coffee machine for you if you don't like the one they're using? If you can make a plan for the high end audio industry which transforms it into an industry that the client grows into; that is convenient; perceived as "cheap" in monetary terms and without any real commitment to the client before, during or after the sale; that requires no display space or demonstration (Have you shopped for a Viking range? Did you get to cook a few meals on each one? Did you get to freeze a few pounds of beef in a KitchenAid freezer for a few months and then taste the results by slowly smoking it over some cherry/apple wood chips on your prospective $5k outdoor grill?); that gets away with selling throw away merchandise and still maintain a devoted client base and that offers the client what they think they want (which isn't typically much more than cheap prices on a "necessity"), then I think you might be on to something a lot of high end dealers haven't been able to figure out for more that a few decades. But, for God's sake, don't blame the good salespeople. . |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 676 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, I didn't, I just said they are few & far between, or in the case of the big-box stores, absent all together. As for an industry-wide game plan, that might be above my pay grade, but I bet it has something to do with advirtising. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4501 Registered: Dec-04 | Most of the advertising for upscale products is done via publication(stereophile, etc), and in places like this. I cannot imagine McIntosh running a half-time ad, whereas Sony and Bose have the sheckles to do so(and the cajones). I think a sub-par salesperson would not last long in an upscale shop, I would hope not, at least. I have not met a bad one yet, limited exposure. 4 for 4. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 677 Registered: Oct-04 | Nuck, But imagine if McIntosh did. Do it like a BMW commercial, focus in on the beauty of the thing, the size of it. They would initiate so much business they wouldn't know what to do. I damn near guarantee it. You know your stuff, so I bet you talked shop with the 4 you've met, not to say they weren't on par, I'm just saying your not the average consumer. Joe Schmo thinks Bose is the pinnacle of audio, how is he to consider anything otherwise when basic introductory advertisements are no where to be found in the mainstream media? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9313 Registered: May-04 | . Personally, having done advertising for several stores, I doubt the impact would be what you assume, CM. The audiophile community has about 2% of the entire US population. The effects of a nation-wide advertising campaign to reach that 2% don't make smart companies want to invest. Even with targeted client lists, a mailer from a high end store will have a 1-2% return. Send out 1,000 mailers and you will get about 20 people who respond specifically to that effort. That works well if you are announcing a new product or doing a clearance sale. Which would you rather have, the store that constantly spends money on advertising and can't stock it's shelves or the store that has what you want to hear in stock? There are X dollars to spend, advertising to the smallest base isn't the smartest strategy. Otherwise, I think you'd see more companies doing just that. They can't afford to. Well, of course not, you say. But, if they advertised, they would grow that market. That's the point of advertising. All true. But the best high end companies sell everything they build as is. Many don't advertise at all. When you are starting at 2% the monies required to make the venture worth your capital aren't generally worth the expenditure. Remember, that 2% is the share for all the high end audio companies out there. Consider what McIntosh's share of the 2% amounts to. I don't think you're seeing my point of why high end audio isn't like a car or a refrigerator. High end audio is not a necessity for most people. The music business pushes for convenience, not better sound. Better sound is not why most people buy a new iPod. The mass market audio industry along with video, as a whole, push for ever-new products to replace the old one you're going to throw away to get the new one. This isn't at all how high end audio works and this, I guarantee, is not how high end audio will survive. Take the source players out of the mix and what has changed about high end audio in the last twenty years that would attract the average 30 year old? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4504 Registered: Dec-04 | Nadda. Looks and prices. And speaker materials, and poly caps and other little stuff that a noob could care, or know, less about. So when we die, who will give a F.F.? Is it all going to expire, to be found only by Charlton Heston running from Apes? At least Looney Tunes will survive. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 678 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, Where would the average 30-year old hear a high end system? Not Best Buy, Circuit City, or Costco; if I hadn't stumbled into Harvey Electronics in NYC a few years a ago I might have been content with a Pioneer HTIB. With the epidemic of cable-TV channels and the sad state of the print media these days, I can't imagine that the parent companies of companies like Marantz & NAD can't find the means of advertising a bit more broadly. I'm talking about raising consumer awareness, I'm talking about stating in no unmistakable terms the absolute superiority of your product. Porsche once had an ad campaign that stated: "There Is No Substitute.": can't the same be said about McIntosh? Am I still not getting it? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 208 Registered: May-06 | I think Nuck pointed out that most of the advertising you will find is with the use of a rifle, i.e. audiophile and home theater magazines. I accept Jan's logic regarding the shotgun approach, advertising to the masses. One difference with Porsche, your example, is the market is different with it as I have to believe anyone caugth driving a Porsche is not going to pull their hat down lower and slink down into the driver's seat. I believe owning a Porsche has some level or "status" associated with it. Do you think if I described my audio system to the folks at work I would get any "oohs" and "ahs". I probably would get a glazed over look. I only discuss my audio system with someone I know has an interest. That isn't too many folks. |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 679 Registered: Oct-04 | That's all fine & dandy, but why should hi-fi take a back seat to HDTV? I bet if you went to work with tale of your new TV you would get those "oohs" & "ahs", not that that's all that important. It's been a while since the audio industry has peaked the interest of the general pubic. Guys, look at the successful Internet direct companies, Aperion & Axiom, I can't chime onto a A/V website without get one of their damn pop-up ads, how do they afford it, think George Soros is backing them like he's backing AirAmerica? Nope, you think it's because they build the best speakers, I think not, It's a game plan that seems to be working. I bet there's as many people that recognise the name Aperion as recognize the name Paradigm today. And McIntosh shouldn't run a commercial on G4-TV because it wouldn't pay off? I see ads for Rolex watches in plenty of publications, how many people a are wearing a (real) Rolex? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9315 Registered: May-04 | . How many people feel they need a car, a watch or a home theater? How many people feel they need a high end audio system? If just 60% of the 300 million people in the US need a car and Porsche has 7% of that market, that's pretty broad interest. I suspect Porsche sells more cars each year and at a higher profit per car than McIntosh sells amplifiers each year. How many models of cars does a Porsche dealer have to stock and use as a demo? In terms of variables needed to compare against one another the number is miniscule in comparison to a typical high end audio dealer. Porsche has a different advertising campaign than McIntosh. Part of Porsche's campaign is to have drivers see other drivers in a Porsche. No one carries their Mac amp around with them. Not even a McIntosh key chain. How many people wear a Rolex in order to be seen wearing a Rolex? Yeah, I still don't think you're getting this. CM, if you really think this advertising model would work so well, why do you suppose no high end audio company has thought of this? . |
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Silver Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY USA Post Number: 682 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, I'm not trying to make an apples to apples comparison. I'm describing a way of broadening your brand recognition in the modern market place. As to why no high-end audio company has thought of this, I suppose they think it wouldn't be worth it. That doesn't mean that they're right. |
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New member Username: Rysa3Post Number: 1 Registered: Nov-06 | I got a Bose Wave radio cd thingee MIlaer the other day-- 12 easy payments of 57.98. |
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New member Username: Rysa3Post Number: 2 Registered: Nov-06 | mailer I meant -- still cant spell |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1504 Registered: May-05 | In the Albany, NY area, a lot of higher-end audio shops have come and gone. One continues to be very successful, despite having Best Buy, Circuit City, and Tweeter all within a 5 minute drive away. How do they do it? It's pretty simple actually. They advertise their store on the back of a local entertainment newspaper every week. They also have a commercials on the radio and TV. The don't bombard you with it, but very few people in the area haven't heard of Hippo's. They advertise and carry big-box store type stuff like Sony TVs and Pioneer Elite receivers for a few bucks less than the competition. They'll also put a more upscale piece or two in the ad. Once you get in the store, the Sony stuff is in the middle of gear like McIntosh, Rotel, and NAD. You can be assured that when someone sees anything made by McIntosh, they notice. Then comes the salesmen & women who are very educated and can honestly explain just about anything audio. When they can't, they ask the boss, who's always around. When people see brands they've never heard of in a friendly and intelligent atmosphere, the wheels start turning, and people start asking questions. I hate to say it, but more specialty shops should start carrying big-box brands to get people in the door. Carry one or two brands that everyone knows, then show them what a few dollars more will get. If they do that the right way, there may be a come back. Then again, maybe that's just wishfull thinking. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1451 Registered: Jun-05 | I think thats very true Stu,I know thats what im gonna do,once thats done voila instant access to the real stuff! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3651 Registered: Feb-05 | Right on Stu. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1968 Registered: Feb-04 | Someone once said: You cannot want what you haven't been exposed to. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3652 Registered: Feb-05 | Or ignorance is bliss... |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1454 Registered: Jun-05 | True indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1048 Registered: May-05 | Stu, Well said. I think you got it. Me, I'm still living in the audio desert. So, I wouldn't know a MacIntosh from a PC or a Bryston from Brill Cream or Rega from Regal Cinemas. But, I heard that Paradigm lives in Coeur d'Alene, you just can't look, feel or hear them unless you buy them first. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 445 Registered: Dec-05 | But the fact that you know what Brill Cream is says something about your age... |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 915 Registered: Nov-05 | If Dak's got something to use Brylcream on then all power to him. |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1054 Registered: May-05 | MC and MR, Approximately 1/4 Cherokee on my Mom's side (Yes Mr. Vigne she was a Texas woman) so still gots lots on top, although it's getting a little gray around the sides. And "yes' I do remember Brylcreem and Ipana toothpaste too and the Friday Night Fights sponsored by Gillette, Bonanza (not the reruns), Gunsmoke, Have Gun Will Travel and Rawhide - Yeah I liked westerns but that was about all you got except the Jack Parr Show and Car 54 where are you?, not to mention Freddie Blasse, Ralphie Valaderiz, Shirley Hardman and Fernando Toro. (OK sports fans, let's see if you young pups can match the names with the sport or sports.) |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_rossPost Number: 693 Registered: May-06 | yo |
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