What Cables to Use?
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Bronze Member Username: SorenpPost Number: 19 Registered: Aug-06 | Hi, I'm still working on my first HiFi system and I'm currently considering signal cables. What a djungle! I've borrowed some cables to audition them, but the difference is very slight, if any. I hoped I could get some help on what to listen for, what cables to look at and so forth. I'm aware that are two major religions when it comes to cables. Some claim that cables plays a significant role in affecting the over all sound of a systme while others claim that this is just a myth. While I find it somewhat suspect that a signal cable can cost over $500, most of the arguments against expensive cables often rests on simplified or even incorrect physical arguments. I do, however, not want to enter into a lengthy discussion on what side to conform to. My current system consists of * NAD 320BEE Apmlifier * NAD 521BEE CD-player * Bowers & Wilkins CDM1 Speakers * Tara Labs Omni ST Bi-Wire Speaker Cables * "In the Box" Signal Cable (I know it's not optimal, but on a student budget and considering that I only paid $1150 (everything but the speakers were NIB and bought in Europe), I think i've made a prity good deal) The cables I've borrowed and tested so far are: * QED Qunex 1 ($50) * QED Qunex 4S ($115) When changing between the "in box" cable and the S4 I get the impression that the sound gets somewhat softer and more "real". However, when chaninging between the "in box" and the Qunex 1 or the Qunex 1 and S4 I'm not sure that I hear any differense. Any idea what to listen for? What kind of music should I use to get the most auditable difference? Are there other cables in this price range that I should consider? Thanks for any help! / Soren Ps. I just read an article on the backsides of using Bi-Wire. http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html Makes me wonder if I should reinsert the metal plates and only use two of the wires in the cable... any thaughts? Ds. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 290 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Soren, this is a very complicated, poorly understood (not least by myself), controversial, and above all subjective matter. We all hear differently, so at the end of the day, trust your own ears, and be happy with what you decide. Only advice I can offer on listening for differences is to do plenty of it, and use a wide variety of CD's. This will give you the best chance of making a sound decision. On bi-wiring, I don't believe bi-wiring makes any difference. But there is one thing to watch out for, do not use those metal plates provided with the loudspeaker. They are usually made from brass, and are not very conductive. So if using the speakers in single wire mode, it is best to get some short jumper leads made up from proper loudspeaker cables terminated in spades. If you cannot eliminate the metal plate, it is better just to stick with your current bi-wired cables. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: SorenpPost Number: 20 Registered: Aug-06 | You are of course right in saying that sound is a subjective matter, but as with many subjective matters there may also be rights and wrongs that most, if not all, will agree to. I have yet to hear a person that speaks in favor of the cables included with the CD player. Being new in the field, I could very well have chosen a brand of cables that, perhaps, deprived the speakers of bass or something similar... I've spent several hours listening to and comparing the cables. I've found some differences that actually enabled me to differ between the cables in blind tests, but I'm still not sure how to interpret the results. Which cable is the best? These are my findings: In Box Cables Very bright, nearly distorted sound. Imaging seams somewhat disturbed by the cable. I can position the musician, but he/she seams to "leak" out to the sides (to the speakers). It's like the a holographic image that flickers (like the ones displayed in the new star wars films). Qunex 4S Not bright at all, rather somewhat a damped and "soft" sound. Much more refined than the "In Box Cables". Imaging is excellent. Seams to be lacking bass and bass pressure compared to both other cables. Qunex 1 Not as bright as the "In Box Cables", but definitely brighter than Qunex 4S. Imaging is good, not sure if the Qunex S4 is better or not. Clearly more bass than the Qunex S4. It seams some details are easier heard with the Quenex 1 than Qunex S4. However, these details also seam somewhat less refined when played through the Qunex 1. Some sharp 's' sounds and hi-hats are a little sharper than I would prefer when playing tracks like "Los" by Ramstein. This is not a problem with the Qunex 4S where these sounds are auditable but takes a less dominant part of the "audio picture". The problem is that I have no idea how to interpret these results. Both these arguments seams plausible to a HiFi newbie like me: 1. The Qunex 1 is a better cable that reviles the true nature of the recordings. The sharp and bright nature of the recordings is incorrectly smoothed out by the Qunex 4S giving a somewhat more pleasant listening experience on bad recordings. On the other hand it doesn't reveal the qualities and details of a good recording. 2. The Quenex 4S is a better cable that reviles the true nature of the recordings. The sharp and bright sound of the Qunex 1 is due to interference and disturbances in the less shielded, single stranded cable. (I'm however not sure how to explain the differences in low register bass between the cables in any of the two cases) I'm totally lost... any views / ideas / comments are HIGHLY welcome! Regards, Soren |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9211 Registered: May-04 | . Check the definition of "revile", I doubt this is the word you meant to use. The best advice I think you'll find most people agreeing upon is to not use the cables as tone controls. Softening the sound might allow more bad recordings to become listenable, but there are better routes to solving the problem of poor recordings. As to your referenced article, I don't quite buy the conclusions. The phase error mentioned is relatively small when compared to the "typical" phase error introduced by a "typical" crossover. That your ear might be sensitive to an additional 3° of phase angle when the crossover already introduces 45° of negative phase angle is, I think debatable. The article also gives no reference information as to how the amount of phase angle they argue was achieved. Choosing good cables will be a better solution than deliberately picking cables which exhibit high amounts of capacitance or inductance and thus high amounts of phase shift. Since the article doesn't mention the brand or length of cables used to get the stated results, I would discount some of the validity of the findings. In other words, as I read the article, they cheated to make their point. Bi-wiring can make an auduble difference in the final sound quality. For exactly the reasons stated in the article in favor of bi-wiring. However, the inclusion of bi-wiring capability has become as much a marketing tool as a real route to improved performance. Also as the article points out, the results will vary with the system. Not all amplifiers will see the same benefits of bi-wiring due to the way damping factor is determined and how the negative feedback network operates in each amplifier. I would hesitiate to call a solid state amplifier with a low(er) damping factor a "poorly designed" amplifier. Again the article tends to stretch the point to make the argument they wish to win. Finally, the article assumes static conditions which never occur in a music playback system. As with virtually all measurements performed on audio equipment, the conditions of the "test" do not duplicate how the equipment will be used. That said, listening to the qualities of cables is the same as listening to the qualities of your system or any one component. You hear what is important to you and only you, and this is what makes cables so difficult to recommend. Additionally, the cables become part of the system and the results you obtain will not necessarily be the same results found when the cables are used in another system. Whether you wish to stay with the cables you've auditioned is up to you. I will say that the better cable companies tend to have a consistent sound throughout their lines. The cable at the low end of the price range sounds similar to the cables at the top of the price range. The ability to hear more music in a more organized manner is generally the difference between price ranges in a well designed cable line. There are several cable companies that offer consistently good results. Check around for reviews of the major brands to determine what cables you should consider as a standard to beat. Cables are profit generating items for audio stores just as much as the equipment would be. Most people agree that the throw-in cables should be the throw-away cables. Some cable companies are more difficult to work with than others and this might influence why your dealer is handling a certain line of cables. The cables your dealer suggests may or may not be the best cables to use with your system. I generally advise that you should stick with one dealer to get the best performance. On the other hand, just be aware cables are something that can make a substantial change in your system's performance or make alterations which are fairly benign. How much work you wish to devote to cable choices is up to you. As to what music you should use, the most obvious answer is to use the music you know best. Listening outside of your typical genre isn't a bad idea and I would suggest you include a few classic, well regarded albums from various genres of music. Listening to classical and jazz, blues and rock will give you a broader perspective on the abilities of any component. You might even find some new music you like to broaden your horizons. When you finally decide which cables to use, don't skimp on price. This is a purchase that will more than likely stay with you through many equipment changes. . |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 896 Registered: Nov-05 | I have been using Monster interconnects with my NAD pre/power combo and CDP and found them quite satisfactory. I never entertained the thought of spending more on cables as I considered any extra benefit would be minute and not worth the money. I was wrong! I have been auditioning Merlin interconnects which are British manufactured and they have transformed my system to a level nearing that of a much higher end package. My B&W 602S3's have always, Imho, sounded wonderful, but these cables seemed to have cleaned (not coloured) all frequencies: the bass is more controlled, the treble incredibly detailed and the mid-range very open and natural. Improvements in imaging and soundstage are also evident. The two cables I've been trying out are the Chopin and Verdi from Merlin's standard range - the Verdi I fixed between the pre and power amp and the Chopin between the CDP and preamp. The Verdi (naturally the more expensive of the two) is clearly the top performer of the duo, though, and I may be wrong, I don't see using both would be any more beneficial with my rig. I recommend trying before buying but I am quite amazed how these cables have improved the music coming from my system - even my wife agrees and considering the cost, that really says something. http://www.merlincables.com/interSt.htm |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4330 Registered: Dec-04 | There ya go MR! You see, Soren, although lots of folks poo-poo cables(fair enough), lots of folks do not have a grasp of the bigger picture. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING makes a difference, or a change, in a system. That is why it is a 'system'. We call it a system, because it is, but some of us consider it a whole. It is a collection of pieces that wirk in harmony. When it is completed in any fashion, then it is systemic. Only when the pieces achieve harmonious balance is the system completed. The cables are the route to harmony. Imagine going from home to the picnic ground. You can take the direct route, but it is under construction. You can take the scenic route, but it is a longer drive. The roads may be paved, or not. But you get to the picnic in any case. Do not, under almost* any case use the red/white from the box. Shite. Instead use another cable, yes Monster is fine for trials, to evaluate a componant. The * is for Naim, and the lovely cables that they ship. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3596 Registered: Feb-05 | * Also applies here.... http://www.stereotimes.com/cd041106.shtml |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4342 Registered: Dec-04 | So se, Soren, the cable can make or break a thorough system. For others, with a good-already kit, they may not. When you swap componants at the enthusiest level, cables can matter. When swapping at the phile level, cables are worn like badges of honour. But every time, they matter. Maybe a little, maybe a lot(my sonic's are working quite well, but I got a new Goertz that is sweeeet). Listen and decide. Again, EVERYTHING in the system matters. It is up to you to decide what matters most. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1697 Registered: Sep-04 | Soren, I have had good results with Chord Co. cables in NAD systems. Also, try to stick with a single cable 'loom' for both interconnects and speaker cables. There seems to be a synergistic effect when this is done. The CDM1 is a bit of a lazy so-and-so so I think you'll find you tend to turn it up more than you'd wish to get a real kick out of it. If you provide the system with some serious resolution in the form of the Chord Chameleon Silver Plus interconnect, you may find you don't need to push it quite so far before getting a kick. Nuck, Which Goertz? The M3 was very good but I felt the M1 was a bit warm and veiled in the systems I tried it in. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1099 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.wireworldcable.com/ I've been using the above for all interconnects, sub, coax and optical cables. They sound great to me but I'm still on my first system so I have little to compare with, what's your opinion on this company? I bought all Monster 12aug speaker wire which I've bi-wired the front speakers with - which cable should I move to in the future with Harman Kardon/Polk kit? |
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Bronze Member Username: SorenpPost Number: 21 Registered: Aug-06 | Thanks everybody! I've been off the Internet for some days while working on a report (I'm a student) so I haven't had the time to reply... sorry. But now I'm here :D First, I must say that my listening exercises have convinced me: cables does matter! No question about it. I understand the argument of building a system that works in "harmony". The problem is that, with my poor experience and somewhat limited budget, I've built a system from the components I liked during audition (unfortunately not auditioned together) and that I could afford. When I auditioned the system at home for the first time I was really disappointed: the sound was nothing like I had expected. Pale, flat and bright. Changing from electric wires to real speaker cables (Tara Labs Omni ST Biwire) did a lot for the sound (no surprise there), but there's still something missing. It's just a feeling that the system does not perform as well as it should. Except for when playing some very live and dynamic recordings, the system sounds somewhat lifeless, bright and 'unclean'. It gets better at high volumes but the feeling caries through to "loosing my apartment"-volumes. It's hard to point out what the exact problem is. Sometimes the bass seams a little too boomy, sometimes there's a hiss in the high register when playing vocal S sounds and hay hat. The middle register is somewhat flat. Instruments doesn't sound convincingly real. But most annoying is that the system sometimes exhibits distortion-like sounds. It occurs on many different kinds of music, but mostly on hardrock and metal. Usually the distortions appear on the vocals when something loud and distorted is happening in the background. I can think of a million reasons for these problems. Speaker placement is anything but optimal (see picture) and the speaker cables were perhaps too cheap for the system. Although the dealer claims that the amp should be able to drive the speakers [1], B&W speakers are known to consume a lot of power. Maybe it was a stupid buy the CDM1 speakers. It sounded like a sweat deal since I got them at a price immediately between the prices of new DM601 and DM602 speakers and I liked the sound when I auditioned them, but I didn't have that much time to research. I'm beginning to get desperate here... I've spent a lot of money on the system (considering my limited resources as a student) and I still don't have a sound thats significantly better than my old system (that I got for less than $50). I thought replacing the interconnects would help, but although the changes was to the better, the basic problems persist. What should I do? Please help!!! Kind regards, Soren [1] he said that after selling me the amp and he wasn't the one selling me the speakers so I don't think it was a sales trick  |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 295 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Soren, looking at the picture you have posted, the first thing that strikes me is that the speakers are too close together. With a placement like this, your system will sound like one big ghetto blaster. Sorry, I don't mean to offend, but that's the way I see it. I think the first thing to fix which will give the best improvement is to place the speakers properly , about 2m apart with speaker stands. I am familiar withe the B&W 705 which is an evolution of your speaker, and I know that they are essentially neutral in tonal terms. Getting speaker stands and proper placement is the first thing I would fix, after that perhaps look at the room (adding a rug may help if you have a reflective wooden floor). cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: SorenpPost Number: 22 Registered: Aug-06 | I'm aware that the speakers are placed far too close together. And to be honest, I don't think the "box" they are standing on helps to produce a good sound either. The problem is that speaker stands are expensive. Since I've already spent a lot on upgrades with the hope that this particular upgrade would fix the "problem", I have hesitated in spending more untill I identify the problem. But I should maybe consider buying stands anyway and hope that this time it will help... (btw, does anyone know of a cheap way to build a pair of speaker stands?) Any other ideas what the problem might be? /Soren |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 297 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Soren, I hope I did not come across as too harsh, I certainly mean to be, and I am fully aware that money is always a limitation. Here is a link from TNT on DIY stands: http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/stubby_e.html But seriously, I would think that once your very fine B&W speakers are on stands and properly positioned the sound from your system should be much improved. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 74 Registered: Mar-06 | Soren, no need to be desperate. You have good equipment. A little patience will put it in order. Do not try to force 'music' out of it. Did you try listening to one speaker at a time? At low volume? Also, you seem to have a very reflective wall right behind your speakers. Even though the speakers are front ported, I guess it will help to use sound absorbing material on that wall. |
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Bronze Member Username: SorenpPost Number: 23 Registered: Aug-06 | Bains - No, not too harsh at all... nor did I intend to sound offended (since I didn't react negatively to your message at all). I'm VERY greatfull for your help (that goes for all of you). English isn't my main language (actually my third) so if I sound short, formal or something else, the reason might very well be that I concentrated too much on what to say and not so much on how to say it. Bains & Srinivas - I'm glad to hear that both of you think that my system isn't built out of rubbish. I've woried quite a lot about the components lately and thaughts like "Why did I even think that I could build a good system on my own..." have occasionally passed my mind. Your coments gave me hope again ;D Srinivas - I have listened to one speaker alone a couple of times, but not in a systematic way. What do you suggest that I listen for while playing only one speaker at low volume? Kind regards, Soren |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 75 Registered: Mar-06 | I do not have much experience myself, but suggested starting from lower volumes as a method to evaluate sound without too many reflections. My speakers almost always sounded good that way, but deteriorated upon connecting both speakers and turning up the volume. I gained useful improvement by putting a rug on the floor in front of the speakers and positioning speakers two feet away from the rear wall. I experimented quite a bit, and dont remember exactly when the sound went from 'boombox' to 'hifi'. Some factors in my case seem to be room treatment (rug) and speaker placement (two meters apart and two feet from back wall). |
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