Vintage receiver and newer speakers
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New member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Oct-06 | Just like just about everyone else on this particular board, I, too, have questions about my setup. I have a "vintage" Sansui 8900ZDB receiver, circa 1980,rated at 125 w/ch RMS, which I actually picked up about three years ago. But not being a "phile", the term "synergy" confuses me, and further, makes me unsure of a proper speaker choice. I'm sure other members may have similar questions, so I'm doing a public service!  Anyway, I had always thought that amplifiers were designed to produce the flattest response curve possible, with the lowest total harmonic distortion possible, and yet provide sufficient "head room" (if that's the term) to generate extra power for musical peaks when required. Obviously, some amps put out more power than others, depending on the the characteristics and number of speakers they have to drive. This is about the limit of my understanding of amplifiers. Now many posters here and elsewhere talk about the "synergy" between an amplifier/receiver and the speakers it's driving. Does this mean that various amplifiers introduce coloration into the sound (even though they shouldn't), just like speakers do? Or that different amps generate the power required at slightly different rates, which in turn would affect how the system would sound? Or both? Or did I just answer my own questions? So, given my old receiver, is there anything I should be careful about when selecting a new pair of speakers (for music only)? So many amps now are digital, as opposed to analog like mine (I'm assuming), and that may introduce another variable that I (or anyone else) should be aware of when atempting to make a choice between speakers. End of questions! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4309 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=548&sid=d59d29408c8f86a1ab 9ff4b5817be716 This is about all I dug up. Speaker considerations should be fairly straightforward for this older unit. I would keep the load to about 8ohms, and use something with fairly simple phase angles. So more or less mainstream speakers. I will wait and see what others post before suggesting any stuff. |
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New member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 8 Registered: Oct-06 | Well, thanks, Nuck! Didn't expect anybody to reply this soon. I'm sorry, but w/o going into great detail, what is meant by "fairly simple phase angles", and how that relates to what an amp can do? Also, my understanding was that the amp power ratings in the olden days tended to be very conservative, compared to more "modern day" amps. although I know these ratings vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, then as now. In fact, at the time I bought the Sansui, my reasons were two-fold: a) I had always had Sansui (an old 771 40w/ch receiver), and a beautiful (but stolen) G-8000 receiver (I think 90 w/ch), and liked them very much (maybe I'm just an old conservative at heart!); and b) I read several articles where the authors, rightly or wrongly, stated that the build and electronics of some of the older amps and receivers were vastly superior to the "new age" home theater stuff that was out there. So, power-wise I shouldn't have much of a problem, as long as I keep the resistance load at 8 ohms? Which would than tend to eliminate the Wharfedales, which are rated at 6 ohms, is that correct? Hey, I don't know what I'm talking about! I just regurgitate! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4313 Registered: Dec-04 | Hey Rocky. Yeah, the phase angles are determined by crossovers and input frequency and a bunch of other stuff. Most of the stuff I post here is recycled info as well, but I do try and listen a bit. As far as the Wharfdales go, I really havn't read of a lot of problems driving them. Again, impedence is only one factor, albeit the only really placcarded one. The dirt on old receivers is true in some ways, a misspeak in others. I consider an older reciever from the golden age to be 1971-78.ish. I would fear that your San is past the optimum vintage, but that is one Nuck's opinion. Not to say that it has any issues, far from it, lots of folks run similar gear still(a nod to quality build). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9194 Registered: May-04 | . "Now many posters here and elsewhere talk about the "synergy" between an amplifier/receiver and the speakers it's driving. Does this mean that various amplifiers introduce coloration into the sound (even though they shouldn't), just like speakers do?" Synergy is what you want it to be. Like putting cream in your coffee, you will decide what has "synergy" and what doesn't. I prefer my espresso very black. Some folks will tell you synergy is using "bright" speakers with a "warm" receiver. And, as we've proven several times on this forum, most who will tell you that don't have any idea how to adequately describe "bright" or "warm". Other folks will tell you "bright" and "warm" alone are too simplistic and have little to do with the issue. I hate to say this, rock, but if you don't know what synergy is, don't worry about it. In your case synergy will become a bit like p0rnography, you'll know it when you hear it. There is no way to teach someone about synergy. You learn about it by having a reference point for what is important to you in reproducing music. Many of us feel that reference piont is established by having a similar reference for live music. As we've also proven on this forum, live music is something not many people hear. Therefore, the most common reference point becomes; "what do I like?" Only you can answer that question. I, of course, would ask you whether you listen to live music often enough to have those reference points. Do you think you know what live music sounds like, and do you, therefore, have any opinion about how it should sound in your home? If the answer is a fairly simple "no", then don't concern yourself with "synergy". Buy what sounds good to you when paired with the equipment you own and don't concern yourself with labels at this point. I can only assume after twenty plus years of ownership you have some idea what your equipment does well and what its weak points are. If that's the case, you can buy speakers based upon the idea of building on the positives of the amplifier. List what your system does well and what it fails at and take that list shopping with you. Be specific. Don't buy a speaker that has similar weaknesses to what your system can't do well. (Tight bass, clear mids and clean highs are not a description of what you want from your system. We all want those qualities but getting those qualities takes an ever increasing amount of money depending on how rigid your priorities become. Most systems are made up of a series of compromises. Think about what you system sounds like beyond simply bass, mids and highs and try to focus on what makes you happy about your system and what makes you want to turn it off. Take some examples of each with you when you shop. If you haven't heard live music recently, I would suggest you attend a concert before you start shopping in oprder to refresh your memory.) Coloration in an amplifier is much more difficult to identify for many people than knowing whether they like a certain speaker. But, to some extent, all amplifiers have some type of colorations. Often the problems become more evident as the amplifier is used with speakers which do not mate well with the amp's capability. Inefficient speakers normally don't pair well with low wattage amplifiers. Speakers with unusual load requirements normally don't work well with an amplifier that cannot deal with the current requirements of the speaker. Impedance load is fairly simple to understand as long as you realize no speaker remains a simple eight or four Ohm load. This measurement varies with frequency and many eight Ohm speakers will present serious problems of low impedance loading (generally considered beneath 3 Ohms) at certain frequencies. Phase angle has to do with the electrical properties of the crossover in combination with the drivers. It will be either positive or negative depending on how the components which make up the crossover filter, (the inductors and capacitors) are arranged. Most salespeople in a decent audio shop should know what is happening well enough to explain whether the speaker you choose will be a good match for your amplifier, so you shouldn't have to worry about this when shopping. If the saleperson can't answer your question about how difficult the speaker is to drive, I wouldn't buy from that shop. If you have any doubts but are interested in a speaker, call the speaker manufacturer. Unfortunately, specification sheets on speakers are too simple to include the information that is often the most important. "Or that different amps generate the power required at slightly different rates, which in turn would affect how the system would sound?" If rates means speed, then, yes, you're essentially correct though many people don't immediately recognize the problem by just listening. There is more to it than just speed. Most modern amplifiers have difficulty delivering current (amperage) to a speaker. Many modern speakers require large amounts of current to work well. This is particularly true if the speaker has a low impedance or a negative phase angle. This sounds like I'm talking in circles, and, I am. The problem is a "circle" of complete circuits where the amplifier places the speaker in the circuit of the output transistors (or tubes or MOSFET's). There is no simple way to explain what you need to know about this in the space provided by the forum. So a recommendation to shop with a respected dealer is the best way to help you along. Most salespeople at such dealerships are there because they like audio and will have a better knowledge of how to get you to what you need than would the big box salesperson who is working there only until they buy their car stereo at a discount. If you think you will have questions to ask, call the shop ahead of time and ask to speak with the manager. Tell them you are own vintage egar and you are in need of some education. Ask to make an appointment with the best salesperon available to help you. Make your appointment on a quiet weekday afternoon so you can spend some time listening and asking questions. This isn't the sort of thing you want to do on a busy Saturday before a big play off game. "So, given my old receiver, is there anything I should be careful about when selecting a new pair of speakers (for music only)?" Know in advance what is good and what is bad about your current system. Most salepeople will want to know why you are looking for new speakers and what isn't making you happy with what you presently own. "So many amps now are digital, as opposed to analog like mine (I'm assuming),and that may introduce another variable that I (or anyone else) should be aware of when atempting to make a choice between speakers." Amplifiers are still analog from start to finish. Some "receivers" (a receiver being three pieces of equipment; a tuner, a pre amplifier and a power amplifier) in one chassis have some "digital" components in them today. But the power amplifier of the receiever is still "analog", just like your Sansui. Don't let the jargon confuse you. Manufacturers like to place labels on their equipment to make it sound impressive. There is no such thing as a "digital" speaker. There are no "digital" amplifiers on the market. Forget the mumbo-jumbo and listen to your prospective speakers with a high end component and with a moderately priced receiver. If you are shopping at a decent store when it is not crowded, the shop should be able to make this sort of comparison for you. Some vintage gear is well respected and fetches quite a good bit of money on the vintage market. Most vintage gear is like vintage anything else, some of it is OK and some is forgettable. For several decades receiver manufacturers have been looking for ways to cut corners. Your Sansui is from a period when wattage was king. To get that wattage on paper, the manufacturer couldn't build the same way they did just a few years previous. Unfortunately, they made the decision to make the amp cheaper than when they built your 771 or G-8000. Each successive year brought less weight in the power supply and subsequently less headroom in the amplifier. It's too far back to remember specifics, but I believe your amplifier used large scale output IC's rather than discrete output transistors. If this is the case, the current/amperage of the output IC's are limited. This would lead you towards picking a simple to drive speaker. Keep the impedance above six Ohms at all frequencies and the crossover should be as simple as possible. The "order" of the crossover is not as important as the number of components in the crossover. Again, most intelligent audio salespeople can lead you away from a speaker that would get you in trouble. There is no need to bring your receiver into the shop but you should ask for an audition period when you can live with the speakers for a while without any penalties should you feel problems exist. Ask the shop if they offer any assistance in speaker set up. Placement of speakers is critical to getting the best sound from your new purchase. If you haven't updated you speaker cable in the past two decades, ask about speaker cable. A few dollars invested in better-than-zip-cord quality cables will be worth the investment. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9195 Registered: May-04 | . ] http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html http://eli47.tripod.com/audiogloss.html http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/def.htm http://lp2cd.com/audio_terms/a/index.html https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/56618.html http://sound.westhost.com/index2.html http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm http://www.enjoythemusic.com/audioterminology.htm#S http://www.cardinalproaudio.com/main/terms.htm |
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New member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 9 Registered: Oct-06 | Jan! Thanks for taking the considerable time and effort it took to answer my complicated questions! I really appreciate it! It's been a while since I've "seriously" looked at stereo gear, and some of the modern jargon I'm afraid I garbled up, which apparently can be easy to do. (Hey, if it's easy, I can do it!) Being a "retired" person now, I have the time, but unfortunately, not a lot of budget, so I need to make smart choices, for once in my life! The gist of what you (and Nuck) are saying, if I understood it, beyond enlisting the aid of a good salesperson, is to stay away from complicated speakers, even though they may nominally fit the power requirements, because my amp may not fare as well. Well, that's what I need to know. I'm assuming also that more efficient designs (resistance concerns aside) would probably serve me well. Again, thanks all for your input!!! Regards underarock definitely want to |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9198 Registered: May-04 | . Complicated doesn't mean lots of drivers. Complex means the crossover has been designed to achieve specific goals. If the designer has taken into account the effects of the capacitors and inductors that are used in the crossover, the number of components in the filter design can be quite high. But even with a simple crossover, the effect of caps and inductors can cause problems for some amplifiers. The salesperson should be able to help you with this and not lead you towards difficult to drive speakers. Off hand I would avoid four Ohm speaker systems to run with your amplifier. Efficiency is a matter of how loud the speakers will play with "X" amount of power being applied. It probably isn't wise to pick extremely low efficiency speakers to run through your Sansui, but an average efficiency of 87dB should do fine unless you feel realistic levels in your home are the same as those heard at a concert hall. For every three dB of added, or reduced, efficiency in the speakers, the effect is as if you had doubled, or halved, the power output of your amplifier. Therefore, with your 125 watt amplifier, going from a 87dB system to a 90 dB system would be the same as having 250 watts available. Going to a 84dB system will be the same as having 65 watts. 65 watts will still provide quite a bit of volume in most rooms, and that three dB increase or reduction is about what you can notice as "not quite the same" when listening to music. Swapping efficiency for sound quality is seldom a good choice. . |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 11 Registered: Oct-06 | Well, somehow I never looked into this a little deeper (no pun intended!). There's one big reason why my EPIs sounded like crap the last few times I really listened to them. The woofer in one of the speakers blew out, snot, kaput, went to sh*t, etc. These are pretty old speakers to begin with, so it's probably not worth fixing/replacing the woofer. So, tomorrow I may get a chance to get to an audio shop when my sister comes over (I don't have a car). I'll be looking for a bookshelf system to replace my EPIs. We'll see what the salesman says in response to some of my questions. Thanks all for your help! |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 12 Registered: Oct-06 | One further note. Just called the stereo shop, and what a downer. Their selection of bookshelf speakers is really limited -- I believe he said Monitor Audio, some Bostons they're trying to unload, and Definitive (which I never heard of). I don't know if it's worth going there or not, but they're about the only good shop in town, to my knowledge. Sigh... |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 200 Registered: Apr-06 | Most stereo shops won't carry a huge number of brands; however, those three are at least respectable, and worth a listen. The thing with speakers is it is best to listen to a variety, so you can get an idea of which brand's "sound" you find sounds most like the real thing. Now, to help you get the ball rolling, I've got a couple other spots you might be able to get to/contact. AUDIO PLUS, Oshkosh; 920 235-8934 AUDIO EMPORIUM, Brown Deer; 414-354-5082 PM SOUND, VIDEO, AND DATA SVCS, WAUWATOSA ; 414-967-1367 There are also a host of internet direct speakers these days, if you're open to that route which include: Alegria Audio, Ascend, AV123 (Onix/Rockets), Axiom, and Aperion. Good luck! |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 13 Registered: Oct-06 | Steven Thanks for your reply! I did the yellowbook thing, and did find "audio empporium". I did call them, and they have paradigm and b&w, brands I think are pretty good, from what little I know. I hope to try it out tomorrow. I may try the Internet sites, as well. Too bad I can't afford Emmas! Are Lings that much worse? Thanks again! |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1106 Registered: Dec-03 | Lings (now the Ling II) are a fine speaker (even if I say so myself). They were designed for smaller rooms and/or playing at moderate levels (under 90db) unless joined up with a subwoofer to keep the 4.5" woofer from being overdriven. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1107 Registered: Dec-03 | In the interest of full disclosure for new members, I am Alegria Audio. |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 14 Registered: Oct-06 | Timn8tor Yeah, I know (I've been heavy into reading some of the posts the last few days, and enjoying myself, immensely, even I don't understand some of it). Just for my info, just what does a pair of Emmas go for these days? About $700 plus shipping, is that right? I know they have a very high reputation here, even though also a board member (ha-ha, just kidding, Tim!). |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 201 Registered: Apr-06 | I suppose a few important questions to ask are: 1: What kind of budget did you have in mind for this project? 2: What kind of usage would you expect these speakers to get (type of music, volume)? 3: Room size? Unfortunately I can't comment on the Lings as I have never heard them in either incarnation. From the forum gossip I've heard though, they tend to sound perhaps a bit more lifelike/natural than the Emma at the expense of some dynamic capability and bass output. My opinion is that Tim's products offer a more lifelike sound than anything I've ever heard at its price; however, like most things in life, they have their pros and cons. If you're a hardcore rocker who likes a 115dB performance, the Lings (or the Emmas for that matter) won't be the speaker for you. |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 15 Registered: Oct-06 | Tim One other question, more apropos to this thread: Will my Sansui 8900ZDB, with its 125w/ch, but possibly less than optimal electronics, compared to more robust equipment these days. handle the Emmas well? Thanks... underarock |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 16 Registered: Oct-06 | Steven To answer to your questions: 1. My budget preferably would have been under $500, but maybe $700 might be possible. It depends on how impressed I feel about a certain product. 2. Usually, unless I'm "looped", I like jazz, blues/rock, and classical. Usually at a volume that keeps the walls intact. 3. Room is maybe 12x15 or so, I haven't used a tape measure, but that's pretty close. So Lings may not be a good choice here, I'd guess. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 202 Registered: Apr-06 | As far as the Lings go, it really depends on how much you like to push it, but they probably wouldn't cut it when you got "looped"; however, the Emmas sound like they would suit you nicely. Generally though for your tastes & budget & amplification, I would look at things like the Paradigm Monitor line, Athena Audition line, KEF Q series, Klipsch Reference Line, ad nauseum. |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 18 Registered: Oct-06 | Steve Thanks for your reply. I'm hoping to get a chance to hear Paradigm and B&W tomorrow, if things work out right. I just want to keep all my options open. Maybe spending a few extra bucks now might (emphasis on "might") serve me better down the line, I don't know. I appreciate your input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1108 Registered: Dec-03 | "Just for my info, just what does a pair of Emmas go for these days? About $700 plus shipping, is that right?" Yes, around $750 delivered to your area. "I know they have a very high reputation here, even though also a board member (ha-ha, just kidding, Tim!)." Thanks! |
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Bronze Member Username: PatnshanWisconsin USA Post Number: 31 Registered: Aug-05 | American has Klipsch reference which are quite nice. Sound stage in Mequon has PSB and Jamo I believe. Sound investments in glendale has JM Labs. Pat |
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Bronze Member Username: UnderarockMilwaukee, WI USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Oct-06 | Pat, thanks for the suggestions. If I don't do something in the interim, like ordering the CBM-170s w/ subwoofer(?), I think I might be able to get to American to check out the Klipsch RB-61s, and then over to Audio Emporium, wher they feature B&Ws and Paradigms. And this time, I'll bring some CD that I like from my collection, or possibly one of my LPs. I may want to check out turntables, too. |
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