My all-new system of Zu, Clarit-T and DIY sub
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 250 Registered: Jun-05 | Hi all. I been away from these forums a good 2 months as I was relocating from the Europe to Australia and though I'd touch base with a post about a very new system that finally got completed yesterday. The move forced me to part with my much loved Rega Apollo/Prima Luna Prologue 2/Dynaudio Focus 140 system and I thought I'd put together something new and a bit cheeper. After reading on this forum about Tim's Alegra Audio single driver speakers, especially Jan comments on them, I was wanting to have a listen to something similar, but hadnt thought of jumping on the wagon, especially blind. Then I readd a review of some Zu Druid speakers and curiosity got the better of me. I just had to hear these, but with no chance of a demo I decided to buy a pair of their cheeper and smaller Tone bookshelves which came up on Audiogon for a good price. So I bought these unheard about 2 months ago. I could only afford surface shipping, hence they arrived in Australia only yesterday. Likewise with amps, I came upon the Red W ine audio Clari-T while reading around AudioCircle and just had to hear one. This is essentially a highlt modded battery powered T-Amp(as in the $30 Sonic Impact). Amp was in dual mono configeration, only about 15W per channel but more than enough for the 97db/W Zu Tones. Having no speakers, little money, and lots of time I thought I'd give DIY a try and make something cheep to get me by in the meantime. Not being to confident in this department I though I'd try an open baffle speaker after reading the facinating 'Darkstar' thread about Visaton B200 OB"s. I bought some cheap 3" Fostex full-range drivers and a $30 T-amp and put the drivers in 4'x3' winged baffles. My first experience with Fostex, full-range drivers and open baffle, and I must say for about $100 for the speakers and amp I was flawed. These things sounded really really good. I had to turn the baffles upside down(placing the drivers 1' from the floor) to get acceptable bass. Nonetheless they were impressive- detailed, open and very fast. I then decided to try building a sub, and settled on this 'critical Q' design using a 12" Peerless driver. I was guessing but I hoped the Q=0.5 might make it 'fast' enough to keep up with the Tones that were said to be similar to electrostctics in this regard. The sub turned out looking and sounding great. Cost only US$530 to make and I can confidently say I walks all over the $1000 Dynaudio Sub250 that I used to own. Now that my system is complete I have to hard task of trying to put into words how it compares to my old setup. I can say firstly that I'm happy. It's different to what I'm used to fro sure. Does lack a bit of the midrange warmth and magic of the Dynaudio/Tube combo, but its strengths are amazing. The Tones are fast and dynamic like I've never heard, I've never heard percussion like this ever. Overall there is a feeling of 'immediacy' from these speakers, very 'live' feeling like there is less in the way between me and the performance. Maybe it is the lack of a crossover I dont know. The battery powered amp I'm guessing is also adding the the systems pace and complete lack of backgound noise. It is almost eery in this regard. The sub certainly adds a lot to the system. I have used a BFD to equalize it flat with 2db from 100hz down to 20hz. Actually, after I had it flat I put in a gentle 3db house curve and think I might prefer this to ruler flat. The sub is completely seemless and transparent in the system. very smooth fast and powerfull, infact I cant really use any adjectives to decribe it as it doesnt have it own sound and I cant tell its there really. I dont know how a sub could sound better(not that I've heard many though I have heard many high-end fullrange speakers) and for the price I recommend it to anyone whos able to cut MDF. So thats my new system. I have moved to fostex OB's to the rear and use them as rear speakers in a 4.1 setup. They are as much as I'd ever want for rear speakers and are pretty seemless withthe fronts. I have to set the volumes on both the Tripath amps seperately as I'm running strait from my universal player into each amp. So alls well that ends well. I wouldnt advise anyone to buy a completely new system of new technologies without hearing them first, but this time I got lucky. I'm thinking about a tubed CD player of preamp to get back a bit of the midrange warm I miss. Then I'll be content forever, hehe See you, B. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 275 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, totally fascinating to read about your new system. I cannot say much, but I really admire the ethos of this system, since simplicity is the key. In the past I have listened to a Red Wine Audio modded SB3, and been very impressed by it. It just goes to show that there are so many different approaches to try to achieve a musical and satisfying result. cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 251 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah, the different approaches to the goal are definitely interesting. There is something satifying about getting there as simply(and cheaply) as possible. I also enjoy the feeling of having a hand in building the components even though I'm not very technically inclined. I should also have mentioned my room. I was lucky to get a dedicated 6.5x4.5m listning room in the house we're renting. The front wall behind the speakers and the front half of both the left and right walls are glass. The entire front wall I have covered in thick fleasy black blankets. The glass side walls I have covered with a light coloured plasticy material(was the cheapest I could find). It hangs in pleats and I think offers more diffusion that absorbtion.(I didnt want to make the room too dead) The back of the side wallls and rear wall are face brick. For (novel) bass traps I bought 2 big concertina type wood trellises, the kind you use to with climbing plants. They can be opened and closed to achieve either a desired height or width. I have one across each of the front corners extending from the floor to about 10cm bellow the ceiling. they are about 3' wide. Then I went to a foam wholesaler and bought four 5kg bags of foam offcuts that come on blocks of varying dencities. This amounted to 4 bags about about 6' in diameter. I then chucked the blocks of foam over the top of the trellis and let them fill up the cavity till I had foam to the ceiling. Massive bass traps for litttle money. I also bought a seriously huge bag of finely crushed foam for next to nothing that I simply poured into a queen size douvet cover and sealed at the neck with a cable tie. Another cheap bass trap that I use as a beanbag. With so much trapping, glass walls and a parrametric equalizer bass is as tight as a...well, it tight  b. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 277 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, Pretty serious stuff, on the room treatments, I am impressed. I guess that is a plus point of a dedicated room, you can experiment at will. what are you using for a CD player at the moment? cheers Rav P.S. If looking for a tubed CD player, some of the Chinese Cayin's look interesting. Althought I have not heard them, but I read a glowing review of one on the six-moons site. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 252 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm using the Denon 2200 Rav. BUt I am looking for a cheepish tubed cd player. Was thinking of a Njoe Tjoeb 4000 from Audiogon or a Scott Nixon tubedac. Also, I got a contact which can get Shanling stuff for half of retail price. But I will look into the Cayin players as well, thanks for that. cheers B. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4273 Registered: Dec-04 | Bvan, that is a funky little kit you have on the go. Keep us posted, eh? |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 278 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, also consider the ESound E5, this is not a tubed player, but it is a very impressive machine. If I were buying a new CDP right now, this is the one I would go for. This one is about $1100AUD drop shipped to your door in Aus by DHL from HK. Use this link to get info on this machine:- http://www.cattylink.com/ cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 253 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks Rav. read a few opinions on the E5 and it looks like something speacial. Can you say any more on the player, have you been able to hear it? cheers b. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 285 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, I have heard the E5, at the mod shop that does the work on my Sony CDP. But in general it is very hard to demo the E5, since the only place you can get them from is drop shipped from HK. I was very impressed by this player, apparently the machine I heard had not many hours on it, but sounded very coherent (it made music), and had plenty of weight to the sound. In comparison, I have heard the Apollo many times at my local dealer. Prior to burn in, the Apollo timed well, but to my ears sounded extremely light-weight. After burn in, the Apollo still times well, and has a fuller mid band, bass is articulate but still to my ears lightweight. In comparison the sound of the E5 carries heft and speed in a rare combination. cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 286 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, just one further point on the E5, the sound it makes is definitely solid-state. So perhaps it is not the player to pick if you are needing to add warmth. (This jars with me a little, since trying to add "warmth" sounds a bit kludgy, I prefer it when all elements of the system are essentially neutral/truthful.) If you need a valve based source, probably the Cayin's are best around. I don't have any experience of them, I say this just based on the glowing sixmoons reviews, and I must say they look awful pretty!!! ciao Rav |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4327 Registered: Dec-04 | I have to wonder about the 'need' portion of the post Rav. And B as well. Does the tube set seem the best device to go with? Mike W. should pipe in here, and others, the integrated pre/conversion seems rather popular... |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 287 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Nuck, I am not sure I understood your short-hand ;-) How much we 'need' any of this stuff is a subjective assesment I guess. My answer to Bvan's post was a little bit tangential I guess. He said that he would like a CD player with a valve output stage for mid-band warmth, and I responded with a solid-state CDP that I hold in high regard. cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 256 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks for the imput. the E5 is definitely in the running still. I might go ss player and tubed pre rather. agree, the idea of artificial warmth doesnt sit to well. but i'm happy to buy what i prefere listning to even if it runs counter to the ideals of high fidelity. though I'm not sure if what i'm after is necessarily artificial. what i was trying to describe is maybe not the same as an altering of the frequency response in the midband. otherwise tube lovers would rather buy the cheeper behringer 2496 digital eq and simply boost those frequencies?. rather it is the sense of extra 'solidity' if you know what i mean. sort of like what vinyl has. i'm not sure is the same thing as simply more of a certain freq. but i'm not yet sure of my goals, so will try hear a few borrowed components in my system before indulging any buying impulses. cheer all b. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 288 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, no worries dude, I hope I did not sound like I was pontificating from on high. I guess rules were made to be bent and broken, but as a rule I do aim to try to keep each component neutral. I don't have too much experience with valve amps, except that my prediliction for rock, seems to orient me to a solid state power. When it comes to valves, I don't have much experience (nor even circuit theory), but I guess they are more linear than transistors, so the circuit would need less corrective feedback, giving a more life like sound. cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 257 Registered: Jun-05 | no worries at all. i'm hoping a tubed preamp wont slow down the sound as I also losten to a lot of rock and fast beat driven electronic stuff. btw, I wish you could hear some rock on the system I got going now. dont know if its more the high efficiency single drivers or the tripath chips, but it is seriously the fastest rig I have ever heard. maybe a naim cdp on the front end? |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 289 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Bvan, from what little I know, based on my Tri-vista integrated amp (which uses Raytheon 5703WB tubes in its pre-amp stage), and having listened to a friend's very high end fully balanced valve pre-amp. I don't think a valve pre-amp will lead to any loss of speed (well not if we are dealing with a well engineered product!). For me valves are a bit more problematic when used in power amplifiers. Since the impedance of a valve output stage is much higher than a transistor output stage, its in the order of a few hundred ohms. So this is not a good match for a typical 4 to 8 ohms loudspeaker. So valve pre-amps use output transformers to match the impedance of the output stage to a typical loudspeaker. So in terms of perceived loss of speed from valve designs, I may be wrong or misguided, but I will happily point the finger of blame at those large output transformers, and any hysteresis that they add to the system. But, in terms of the pre-amp, provided it's a good 'un I don't think a valve pre-amp will cause a lost of speed or dynamics. cheers Rav PS BTW had a chance to listen to a Naim CD player, I think it was a CDX. Anyhows it sounded good to me, and it sounded much better when it used an outboard Flatcap2 PSU. But, yeah this is a good choice, if somewhat pricey!! E5 is still more bang per buck IMHO. |
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