Jolida 302B for rock amp?
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New member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 7 Registered: Sep-06 | With trying to start the tube vs solid state discussion, I just had to slap myself that I didnt wonder about this sooner. First off I hate asking about such a subjective topic...I know its ultimately up to my own ears... but im not able to demo any amp without a very long drive. I have played guitar for 20+ and very familiar with differences between tube and solid state guitar amps. To me there is no discussion or debate, for my playing tube guitar amps are FAR superior in every way. Is there any correlation between guitar and audio amps concerning general tone and smoothness? I listen to 80% rock n roll. My current room size is about 12'X22, though temporary and likely to get smaller. Ive demoed some Cambridge Azur amps, may do the same with the NAD(more mail order..returns..yuck!) Future upgrades will most likely be the Athena F2.2s or Paradigm Espirits. I see the Jolidas on the used market for a reasonable amount. How would the 302B be as a rock amp? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4200 Registered: Dec-04 | TP, as always, you will have to decide for yourself. Working with the Athena's and, presumably, a budget, stay with ss. Some tubes can deliver the tonals associated with rock (Mac's can do it) but ss has more speed, more directness and less finesse' than tubes. A nice setup with kt88's is the best rock setup, but tubes live on volts, not current(that is where the magic of tubes come through). I will get beaten for this post, but if you are 80% rock, stick with ss. And do not ever, ever underbuy in amp! The CA is out. The Nad 162/272 is in. Rotel 200wx2 is in. Outlaw is definately in. Used Classe, Levinson or Carver are in. But bear in mind your speakers. Rotel or H/K. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9171 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - Consider yourself beaten. I see no reason not to use tubes for rock. Speed? Can you point to anything that indicates tubes are not the equivalent of transistors in this regard? Directness? Well, you'll have to be more direct to allow me to understand that description. And the volts vs. current has to do with the speakers he chooses, not the music he plays. The problem with the question is TP doesn't really tell us what qualities of tubes he finds preferrable. Tone? Smoothness? It's unlikely TP will find a solid state amp that has those qualities if he's used to hearing his guitar through tubes. However, there's much more to an amplifier's performance than those simple qualities. KT88's are not required for rock. And any used amp can normally be resold at about the same purchase price. Experiment and listen for what tubes offer would be my advice. Make certain the speakers are suited to tubes and you should do fine. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4202 Registered: Dec-04 | TP, a bit further, perhaps. Your guitar amp, with it's 8watts is a purpose built amp. If you ever tried running a cd source through it, with an input stage, you would find, no surprise, guitar and little else. The input stage of a guitar amp is input loaded, even '0' on the gain imparts about 5% lift. This input gives 'lively' reaction to the strings, and, well, an electric guitar sound, which ss 'can' do also, but with Gibson's finest or a Marshall 88RAL. The same cannot be said of a minimal(Jolida) tube amp, with no input gain(adjustable) on a stock unit. The 'slam' from a good heavy ss amp is well known, as compared to the 'finesse' of a lesser tuber. As I stated, a HQ Mack can and will deliver the goods. If you are going the route of Athena f2.2's (good speakers) and want RnR, ss is affordable and will knock rocks offa lower end tuber (like the Jolida). H/K or Rotel. Jolida (as I have read) have some quality issues. Ask here for more details, I may be wrong. Jan will tell me I'm wrong anyhow, hehe. |
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New member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 8 Registered: Sep-06 | Nuck - thanks, good info. Hadnt considered HK. Do you mean underbuy as in power? Crash course "speed" for me? Jan- I see your point. Those are simple descriptions. A guitar amp doesnt have to reproduce the myriad of sounds an audio amp does so maybe there isnt much correlation? Anyway, I dont have the technical insight or analysis to describe it as you and others have on the forum. But i'll do my best...bear with me!  Guitar amps routinely have 2 or 3 channels. Clean and 1 or 2 "dirty" channels. Tube amp clean is rich, lush and musical, its super clean without being harsh. Distortion sounds are full bodied, smooth and warm without being fuzzy and grainy. Its about subtleties for me. The way notes sustain, and trail off into the distance with tubes is hard to desribe, but its wonderful. Most ss amps ive tried you can actually hear it "step" down the sound as if cutting power or watts or whatever it does...very artificial. There are ss amps that get close to tube sounds...I own one(a hybrid)...but no cigar. Tubes amps have "feel". Very sensitive to subtleties of touch, they reproduce sounds your hands create that you will never notice through a ss amp. They react in ways ss doesnt. The guitar, type of wood and its thickness, string material and gauge all make a tube amp react differently. Even pick material and thickness is noticeable. I know people who cant hear these difference..but I can. Generally SS amps tend to be one-sided animals, modify any of the above factors, eq them all you want...still the same creature. Not so my tube amps. SS amps reproduce guitar sound, tube amps sing! My tube amps are finicky units though. Some days they will sound different than other days, I dont know all the reasons but they do. Warm up time and humidity are factors. They do have personality. Another factor is headroom. The buffer you have before the tube "breaks up" or distorts. Touch and pressure of the playing hands make huge differences, its not just about volume. I tend to like a lot of headroom. Now how all this relates to tube audio amps....? The tubes im most familiar with are EL84/6BQ5, EL34/6CA7, KT88s, and 6L6. Preamp tubes 12AX7. I much prefer EL84 amps for their warmth. Then EL34. Lastly KT88 and 6L6 amps which I find a little on the harsh side. IF I go with Athenas or Paradigms and planned on demoing the NADs and the Jolida (or some of Nucks recommendations) will I be "in the ballpark" so to speak? Or will I have some complete mismatches? |
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New member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 9 Registered: Sep-06 | Nuck, funny you should mention that. I have a M-Audio pre-amp/recording interface with powered monitors for my pc. It has 1/4" balanced and unbalanced outs, so I got thinking exactly what you mentioned...why not try it through one my tube amps? Like you say..I get mostly guitar. But depending on the pre gain setting I get some suprisingly clear vocals and bass, particularly the low watt EL84 amp. Im not tech savy enough to know how or if this relates, but the guitars dont sound bad! I know this was way off topic, but an interesting experiment. Along with what you said above, it points out there may not be enough simliarities to judge whether tube audio is for me....it always leads back to going and listening doesnt it? Living in the sticks is a real drag sometimes... Im curious what do u mean 8 watts? Excuse my ignorance, but these amps are rated much higher than that. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 184 Registered: May-06 | TP, I have a Crate Palamino 16 and a Line 6 212 Spider II through which I run a Gibson Lucille and a Fender Telecaster among a couple of other things. I get what you mean regarding the tube's color versus the SS sterility, distorted, echoed, flanged, or wah'd. Though I do favor a bit of delay with a bit of echo. My solution for my 2 channel was a tube pre-amp with a very powerful Carver. The Carver is a refurbished M-4.0t at 375 wpc where my pre-amp is a Rogue Audio Magnum 99. My speakers love the power, but I get coloration from the pre. See my profile for a full description. Hope this helps. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4206 Registered: Dec-04 | Nothing is off-topic, Ty, it's your thread, right? I wonder now about taking it a little further. Maybe power a home speaker instead of the full range amp driver? If you are already on the PC, have you tried a full size(lossless) file? I think wma is very close (20meg for 3 min tune). If you play back a mono recorded piece you might get a better idea. Then maybe try a ss guitar amp to compare. You could set up an A/B with mono on both channels and one speaker per side. Perhaps none of this will dictate your purchasing decision, but it is rather interesting. The 8w referred to the only amp I have here, a little Traynor. Hey Im just a singer/drummer, ya know? hehehe |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9172 Registered: May-04 | . TP can experiment with any combination of gear he prefers, but I doubt listening to full range audio through a bandwidth limited guitar amp will give him much of an idea what he can expect from an amplifier designed from the ground up for full range audio. The guitar amp's limitations are in the output transformers and the speaker's bandwidth. There is nothing particularly designed into the guitar amp's electronics that would restrict its use for full range audio other than its distortion characteristics. I haven't kept up with guitar amps ever since I bought an acoustic with nylon strings back in 1960-something, but I doubt contemporary guitar amps run at the lower distortion rates of a consumer audio amplifier. And a bit of character is typically designed into most guitar amps where it is designed out of most home amps. But distortion is a tough way to judge what a tube amp will do when you begin thinking home amp rather that instrument amplifier. Musicians like tubes due to how they distort and most musicians would think their tubes are just getting broken in when a home audio user would consider them worn out. I agree with the idea of how signals end with tube amps. I've often said the most noticeable difference between tube and solid state amps is the way signals begin and end. And everything in between those two points. The subtleties TP describes would be exactly what I would expect to hear from someone explaining why they use a small wattage, single ended triode amp with a full range driver. I don't think you'll hear those small bits of information from a lower priced transistor amp and certainly not from a straight bipolar transistor amp. If you've got bigger bucks to spend, then you might consider ss, but for a budget amplifier, tubes are the only devices which can deliver those goods. NAD certainly doesn't start and stop like tubes will. TP, tubes in your price range are always going to be paired with an output transformer. This will raise the overall output impedance of the amplifier and will require a speaker which thrives on volts and not current. Pick a speaker with a fairly flat impedance sweep and minimal phase angle. If a salesperson doesn't know whether a speaker is well suited to a tube amplifier, the manufacturer certainly will. Give them a call before making your decision. With the current interest in SET's there are plenty of speakers to be found on the internet which do quite well with tubes. You sound like a prime suspect for The Big Fun Box; http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/bfb_e.html If you require volume levels, look for high sensitivity/efficiency in the speaker. Pair a 96-98dB speaker with an EL84/34 amp and you should do quite well for rock. Yes, solid state is affordable. What else good can be said of it? And, Nuck, what is this "lesser tuber" crap? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4208 Registered: Dec-04 | Lesser tube designs and products are brought out at entry level, making them 'lesser' than their more accute, more expensive and carefully designed bretheren (which use hand picked and matched componants). Lesser ss gear is often the same. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3563 Registered: Feb-05 | Jolida amps in particular are poorly built and designed. From all accounts they sound ok but rarely last longer than a year. Michael, I have a friend who is doing a variation on what you suggest. He bi amps using a couple of big Audio Research mono blocks for the mids and hi's and uses a hi power SS amp for bass. His choice for pre amp is an Audio Research hybrid. He loves it with his Apogee speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: Teddy21Ann Arbor, MI USA Post Number: 227 Registered: Feb-06 | http://petit.philou.free.fr/ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4210 Registered: Dec-04 | Not likely. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4211 Registered: Dec-04 | Any more fiddlin' Ty? It sounds like fun from here.(ain't costing me nothing, for a change, hehe) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9173 Registered: May-04 | . I'm not sure what accounts Art has been reading concerning Jolida. It's difficult to believe a company can stay in business long if the products barely survive the warranty period. Many companies have had production problems and righted themself, NAD being one of those companies. I can't speak to the failure or success rate of recent Jolida products since I've not been around them in many years. Forum member Rick Barnes has owned a Jolida and might be able to give you more insight into their reliability though I don't remember him making any comments one way or the other about the amplifier he owns. I think he loved the sound of the Jolida and moved quickly from that amp to a SET amp to get further into the nuances tubes can present. He bought his Jolida amp and had modifications done at this establishment; http://www.responseaudio.com/index.html You might give them a call and ask their opinion also. They represent several decent lines and have no particular reason to push any one line. At the present time I find it difficult to find "lesser tube" gear. Not that there aren't some products which are not well thought out and rightfully disappear from the market after leaving a small grease spot. But the nature of tubes has progressed over the past few years to the point where low priced tube gear is very well built in almost all cases. You can't find a new $400 tube integrated with any amount of ease while $400 ss integrateds are not that difficult to manage. The starting point for tubes tends toward the $1k mark and by that price range you should expect a well built amp. The PrimaLuna products have pushed the market into offering some very good values at that price range for new gear. A few entry level tube products from Chinese manufacturers have made the market more competitive in all aspects. Unfortunately, the US Dollar against most other world currencies other than the Chinese yuan has pushed many well built tube amps out of this market. Of course, that still plays well for American products, of which Jolida should be in the pack. The simplicity of tube circuits makes them quite capable of meeting the "hand picked" quality of their more expensive and accute(?) solid state brethren. Off hand I'd say its uncommon today to find an entry level tube amp that doesn't employ audiophile grade parts and components. However, anyone who has spent time with tube amps knows the quality of the amplifier is largely determined by the quality of the transformers. Find a company with good transformers and you will almost always find a good amplifier. Give Response Audio a call and listen to what they say. For a taste of tubes at a low cost, you can consider this amp; http://ca.geocities.com/gmilitano/Tubes/K-12M/K-12M.htm Tim Foreman has built this amp and describes his experience with the unit here; http://www.timn8er.com/s5_electronics_k.htm It's low powered but inexpensive, pair it with the right speakers and you can still have fun. http://www.symphonysound.com/articles/tubefriendly.html . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4214 Registered: Dec-04 | This looks to be a good ol' ecoustics get together...it's been a while. I figgur if BelCanto and some others are building off the Jolida base and charging 1500 for it, the Jolida must have a LOT of room to build on. Thus 'lesser tubes'. A grand ain't chump change, and a lot of good ss amps can be had for 1K$. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4215 Registered: Dec-04 | Sorry for the Bogart, Ty...this should be enlightening, I hope. |
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New member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 10 Registered: Sep-06 | Michael - thanks, it does help and to keeps my mind open to more ideas. I have of read simliar setups online, not a bad route to explore. My hybrid guitar amp is the same idea, tube pre(sort of) and ss power section. Jan - Your points on the differences are insightful and something I was thinking without being able to articulate. Oranges and apples on one hand, but the same basic idea on the other. I did look at the BFB, and from there ended up at: http://www.fostexspeakers.com/fostex.html Very interesting stuff, and not an unreasonable amount to experiment with. Even with my current setup the fostex's would be worth trying. Sounds like a 96-98dB speaker rules out both those im looking at. Guess its time to decide and go listen, next week I will be in salt lake city and have rounded up some audio dealers to stop by and see what I can learn. I like your "what else good can be said of it" comment....I concur 100% when talking guitar amps. Audio amps though...remains to be seen.... Hopefully though, i'll reach a conclusion before all the trial and error (and $$) it took to reach it with guitar amps. Thanks for your insight. If Jolida is so poor how do they stay afloat? Whats the next most affordable option? Nuck - havent done much more fiddling. I dont have the necessary connections to power my full range speakers from my amps without taking the woofers out....hmmm theres an idea....;) Also dont have a strictly ss amp, just my Johnson hybrid which is is basically a solid state amp with a 12AX7 in the pre amp immediately behind the input. Its also a digital modeling amp ie heavily processed. I did try some A/B between it and my Peavey EL84, with the settings equal and the same speaker. Dont have any readily available WMA tracks, so I listened to Pink Floyd Animals track 2 for some good singing guitar work. The character (as jan mentioned) of the amps is completely different so its hard to come to any conclusion. As someone said here, its obvious there is gain built into the input, particulary on the Peavey EL84. The digital amp is much more complex, with adjustable input levels, countour, master volume, not to mention the modeling circuitry, etc. The EL84 is much simpler. But my general impression is that the EL84 sounds more organic, alive and (I hate to use the word again) smoooooth... Much less processed sounding. But given the mission of the Johnson that stands to reason. Who knows, I hear differences, but possibly too many variables to narrow it down to tube vs. ss. Plus this particular hybrid amp is the best sounding non-tube amp ive ever heard...which is why I bought it! Maybe ill try the full range speaker trick, certainly not gonna hurt my old kenwoods to yank the main driver. And id be remiss if I did not mention the superlative and analytical yet neanderthalian technical insight offered by dunken bob...I shall forever be in awe. ;) |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4216 Registered: Dec-04 | I can't belive I didn't link this before...dummy! Tyler, if you have apot of coffee on the go, you can read this one. Solid info. Where's Kegger? https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/111344.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3564 Registered: Feb-05 | "If Jolida is so poor how do they stay afloat? Whats the next most affordable option?" Bose and Sony are still afloat so who knows. PrimaLuna makes 2 good tube integrated amps. Onix and Cayin make a couple of good ones. Antique Sound Labs has a couple of decent models. I don't think that the quality is quite as good as the previously mentioned ones. Next up and high on my dream list is Cary and Manley. Manley is said to be particularly good with rock and perhaps you could find a nice used one at Audiogon. Keep an eye out. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3565 Registered: Feb-05 | I have a friend who was a Jolida dealer and she they stated that they had a 150% failure rate. Which means that all of them failed and needed warranty woor with half of them failing twice. I have heard that they are improving their QC but just as I heard that one of our forum members lost his due to failure (perhaps it was one of the older ones). My friend stated that when they opened the Jolida's up that they were apalled at the build quality. Like I said perhaps they have changed. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicroverRosville, Ca Post Number: 17 Registered: Aug-06 | Hello, You guys are way over my head in terms of equipment knowledge, but that's why I am here. I have been an SS user for 35 years (habit). Now I am looking to dive into an integrated amplifier. Just like everything else, where to start and what to look and listen for in a unit, I have come across several units, stock and modified for around 1500.00. The unit EXtreme 3205 Signature provided by Response audio appears to be a very nice start, what are your thoughts? http://www.responseaudio.com/jolida%20signature%20series.htm |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4217 Registered: Dec-04 | Seems to be one of a few builders improving on lesser tube designs and applications. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4218 Registered: Dec-04 | Rover, the site looks fine, but read beyond the colored script and the banners. We begin by gutting the entire unit. Hmmm... Why start with an established unit(which must be paid for) and start ground up? Also claiming to upgrade every part of the unit? Any time I see a site with exclamation marks, particularly is succesion, I get leery. These may be very good products, don't get me wrong. But to completely gut a unit(as it says here) means nothing. If you are going to start with a plate alone, these can be bought for next to nothing. I ain't buying the ad, the product may be better than the ad(I hope so). |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicroverRosville, Ca Post Number: 18 Registered: Aug-06 | Thanks Nuck, I would have to agree with your statement about gutting a unit and rebuilding. I guess this is where I get a bit confused about a base price point for a unit and then paying for upgrades. Does anyone have ideas for an integrated amp that can cut it for 1500.00? Or am I just kidding myself? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3566 Registered: Feb-05 | Prima Luna Prologue 1 and 2. For a little more there is a great little integrated from Rogue Audio. In SS there is the Naim integrated. In other words there are a whole bunch of fine integrated amps for around $1500. http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=11&catid=36 http://www.upscaleaudio.com/product.asp?itemid=25&catid=36 http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Titan.htm#Cronos http://www.divertech.com/asl1001dt.html http://www.vasaudio.com/product_a50t.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicroverRosville, Ca Post Number: 20 Registered: Aug-06 | Thank you AZ, I Currently have the Alegria Emma speakers and looking for a unit with some pop! And am not sure the Prima has the Juice (in my budget range). They are not the most efficient speakers in the world. http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/Emma.htm Mid-Woofer -- 6" long throw XBL^2 Tweeter -- 3" planar with 8 neodymium magnets Frequency Response -- 36 Hz to 20 kHz +/- 3db Nominal Impedance -- 8 ohms Sensitivity -- 86db per watt at one meter Crossover - 4th order at 3 kHz Also I have a turntable and would need a preamp. Any words of wisdom? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4221 Registered: Dec-04 | Well done, Art. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1416 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry to jump in here so late in the game. I still own a Jolida integrated amp. I found very quickly with a little tube rolling you can get yourself one very sweet sounding amp. As far as the quality issues go; my amp about one year in service wouldn't power up. I shipped it off to Kegger, and had the amp up and running in 2 minutes. A small piece of solder from one of the boards fell off and landed in the wrong spot. It was kind of a freak thing in my opinion. Kegger still has the amp and will get around to some Frankentube Mods (insert my evil laugh here). I have listened to most tube amps out there and I settled on the EL84 sound. I find it very seductive. My Sophia Electric is also based on that tube.....sort of. Bottom line, go out and listen and choose the amp that will match well with your speakers, and find the sound that does it for you. Hope this helps. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4223 Registered: Dec-04 | Rover, you may be starting to get the idea that a lot of tubers out there like to fiddle, roll tubes and fiddle sommore.That seems to be true in many cases. I still ain't sold on 'lesser units' or 'entry level' such as Jan disputed, but starting smaller does lead to upgradeitis for a lot of stereoheads(like us here, say). Keep in mind, a LOT of ss gear can be had(pre-loved, especially), in this price range. Bryston SST amps come into play, but seperate pre amp. Bryston DO carry the 20 yr warranty as well. Tim really does love a lot of power going to the Emma's, I'm sure you do too. If you can do pre-owned, a Mac 2275(or like) would be a hoot! A bear to fix, though.$$$ |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3567 Registered: Feb-05 | I had the Prima Luna phono section added to my amp when I ordered it, sounds great. If you have speakers that are very revealing the PL2 can be bright especially with the stock Chinese tubes. If you roll those out for better ones (all of the tubes not just the output tubes) the amp sounds excellent. The difference between the PL2 and the PL1 are very few as you can use the same compliment of tubes in either. The PL1 has less expensive caps and diodes which equals a less revealing and hence more forgiving sound. They also have the same auto bias feature but they are set differently. Kevin Deal (or actually his counterpart Jared) can send anyone a PDF to make that adjustment at home. All you need is a multimeter. Most folks tend to like the sound of the stock PL1 better than the two and I think it because they both have the same chinese 12ax7's which are bright and the PL1 is more forgiving. The PL2 with good quality KT88's or 6550's should be punchy enough for your needs. Again you may want try one of these amps to see. There are a lot of factors around compatibility with speakers and tubes that cannot easily be read on a spec sheet. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9174 Registered: May-04 | . Did someone miss the slogan, "Specializing in custom tube amp modifcation"? Response makes a business out of modifying other people's products. If you don't feel comfortable buying a modified unit, buy one that isn't modified. What Response is saying is they have a starting point in what they obviously feel is a well designed amplifier. The Jolida amplifier is, however, what Nuck prefers to call a "lesser" amplifier. Meaning it is built to a price point. Price points do not allow for Vishay resistors and $55 capacitors. What you are buying in this amplifier is a product which has been made a "more-er" amplifier by way of replacing the internal passive components. What is left from the original amplifier are the transformers and the original circuit. Please refer to my earlier statement regarding transformers. And no one with any brains modifies a tube amplifier that doesn't either have very good transformers or very good basic circuitry. So, judging by the willingness to use those two parts of the stock Joilda amplifier, I would say Response is betting the stock unit has something to offer. Whether you should buy this amplifier is another matter. First, what Response is inidicating is that each passive component they exchange has an effect on the final sound quality of the amplifier. That's fine, if you know you like the amplifier in its stock form. Why spend money modding something that doesn't suit your taste? The idea of modifications is to bring out the best of what the amplifier has in its stock form but was hampered by the manufacturer having to meet a price point. So, make sure you like the amplifier before anything else. Second, each of these pieces are top notch in the modifier's handbook. But each part is chosen for its sonic character. So, by choosing a modified amplifier, you are choosing to buy what suits someone else's taste. Not that that isn't what you do in any purchase, but here you are saying you are willing to bet the Vishay resitor is the one you would have chosen if you were doing the mod yourself. I think I would get to know the amplifier and then choose what mods I wanted performed rather than jumping into a modified unit as my first tube amp. Remember that just swapping tubes (EL34 for EL34) will quite often make a large difference in most tube amplifiers, so, go slowly when it comes to modifications. And, wiring an amplifier meant to accept 6550's to now run EL34's (or any other pentode to triode or triode to power tetrode tube swap) means you are changing something major in the amplifier's character. Know something about why a change was made before jumping into a modified unit. Modified units are much harder to resell since they are specifically aimed at a particular buyer's preferences. When it comes to asking for amplifier suggestions when you've given no indication what you are looking for, you might as well ask what brand of coffee you will pefer. There are plenty to choose from and without more information from you, suggesting anything is rather presumptuous. While Art has listed a few good choices, the options are far too numerous to list when the question is as wide open as what we've been given. Are you interested in a name brand product? One that is hand built and sold only over the internet? A classic company that relies on word of mouth and doesn't advertise or would you prefer one that will be recognizable to your friends? A product you build from a kit or one you build from a schematic? New or used? As you can see, there are lots of questions to answer before any recommendation can begin to have relevance. Just as an example, here are a few companies that specialize in tubes and tube equipment; http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/directory/directory.htm Also, making any comparison to Bose or Sony is absurd. Those companies survive on their marketing power. Any comparison to Jolida is misplaced in those respects. I don't think Jolida is the first name that springs to mind when you ask most people about amplifiers. Jolida has survived due to a perceived level of performance and value, not because they can be found in every shop and every magazine. Comparing in any way Jolida's level of quality to Bose or Sony is reaching for a metaphor that doesn't exist. TP - Single driver units offer many of the qualities you seem to admire. However, they seldom make the best rock speakers. Make certain you know the limtations of full range single drivers before you jump in. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9175 Registered: May-04 | . "There are a lot of factors around compatibility with speakers and tubes that cannot easily be read on a spec sheet." No, I don't think that's true. What tubes require of a speaker is fairly simple. Read the article from Symphony Sound and you will see exactly what makes one speaker more tube friendly than another speaker. That most speakers do not include this information on a basic spec sheet is the problem. However, a good salesperson should know what they are selling, you should be able to find the information required in any full review of the speaker or you can call the speaker manufacturer. Keep the impedance fairly even (and best to be as high as possible) and do not have any drastic phase angle introduced by the crossover. If the chosen speaker is an electrostatic or some sort of hybrid, make certain the amp will drive a highly capacitive load buffered by an input transformer. That's about all that's required to make a speaker tube friendly. If the amp is a SET with very low power or you prefer loud listening levels, a high sensivity/efficiency will help get the SPL's up. It's no great mystery. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4227 Registered: Dec-04 | I don't think any direct comparison to Bose or Sony was inplied, just the opposite, as a model of reflection. In fact, if Lolida were to enter a market size such as Crap Inc. it would die, and quickly. Secondly, the componant quality issue is not merely based on build cost, but the release of new products which are not simply 'add in'. A new gelcap may be expensive, the relative marrying of parts can add double or triple the cost of re-doing supply chain and stock elimination of existing parts. This is one reason why 'tuners' can move more quickly that manufacturers. Rick outlined another issue as well. A simple cold solder joint, or high Tin solder was used somewhere, which did not allow for thermal expansion, and cracked loose, causing downtime. It would seem to me that tuners would use controlled Whimis solder, or Silver solder for point to point connections. Again, starting with an XO and circuit, all of this is replaced at hand built cost. If purchasing a higher end model, I would expect these practises to be followed. If buying(or building) by hand, would you use any less? Tyler, Rover, buying low is one thing, buying to last may be another. MAY BE. I might consider asking Rick to pass along this thread to Kegger. If you want hand built, Keg knows who, how and how much. My next amp will be a tuber, I have Kegger's invite to consult him, and I will. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3569 Registered: Feb-05 | "I don't think any direct comparison to Bose or Sony was inplied, just the opposite, as a model of reflection." Exactly. "There are a lot of factors around compatibility with speakers and tubes that cannot easily be read on a spec sheet." It is true, and for the reason stated, most speaker manufacturers don't include the pertinent info on spec sheets and moreover most folks don't know what they are looking for when they see it. That is why I said "easily read". I was speaking to a friend of mine yesterday who has been an audio dealer, authorized repair facility and modification specialist for 33 years and he brought up several issues around tubes and speaker choice that aren't on many spec sheets and that I hadn't considered. He is my best source for technical information. I agree with Jan that a good salesperson is invaluable especially if you are new to this. Find a reputable dealer with patient and informative sales staff. I have been working with many of the same people for up to 23 yrs (since I moved here in 1983). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4228 Registered: Dec-04 | Big time, Art. The forum here is a great source of experience(good and bad), most of us pony up a bad idea or combo quite readily. The dealership is where it all goes down, and where the upsides are available. So lets push Ty and Rover for sommore info, see if we can guide the course a bit, and enjoy the experienve vicareously(sp?) and welcome more friends to hi-fi. 2 Ears, 2 speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9176 Registered: May-04 | . "I was speaking to a friend of mine ... he brought up several issues ..." Such as? " ... buying low is one thing, buying to last may be another. MAY BE." If I were "buying low", I would have more faith in a tube product than I would a solid state item. There are fewer parts in a lower priced tube item and therefore more common, straight forward circuitry. If a tube goes out, it is most often a simple fix rather than searching for a discontinued transistor. The longevity of the Dynaco ST70 leads me to think a low priced tube amp can be a very successful way to start a system. High tin solder, Nuck? Silver solder for point to point? Not to get too picky here, but not everyone thinks silver makes the best solder. A cold solder joint is something I somewhat expect from time to time if the company is doing point to point rather than circuit boards. I would prefer it doesn't happen but I certainly wouldn't be that bothered by the fact it did. Parts that go up in smoke bother me much, much more. And I would rather have the point to point in a tube amp than a few small scale circuit boards. But, with hand soldering, whether it be point to point or on a board, the skill and performance of the person doing the job that day is still going to determine how well the joint holds together. I would look at the construction quality of any gear I was considering. Many review sites offer internal shots of how a piece of equipment is put together. This is where the Chinese based companies such as PrimaLuna have really upped the level of competition. It is difficult to get the same build quality here in the States for anywhere near the same price. The build quality may not initially make the unit sound better, but it will probably cut down on frequency of repair which could ultimately make you decide to change out gear. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3570 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan, since he is the technical expert and I am not how about you give your email address and I'll give you his phone number and ya'll can discuss it. I'm sure you would likely agree and find that the difference is that since you and he are technically adept and the average newbie is not that my statement, "There are a lot of factors around compatibility with speakers and tubes that cannot easily be read on a spec sheet." is quite relevant to newbies and not so much to those folks who have been around the audio block a few times. Now let's see if we can assist Rover and Tyler shall we. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4230 Registered: Dec-04 | Agreed, Jan, the tube layout can be so much simpler than Fet based output, advanced transistor output's without dc based output circuitry can be even more involved, however, we are dealing with a toobnoob or 2 here, and I am nor certain that either of our guests are adept with an iron, meter or schematic. We should bear the repair factor in mind, of course, but keep with new stuff, I think. Art, would you shoot me your friend's info? Or pass my e-mail along..I love contacts(especially really really good ones)! I am unsure of the Emma's spec's, although Tim said he ran his 30w tube kit with them quite well. But, as we have proven here, one kit to another can vary, depending. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4231 Registered: Dec-04 | I have not seen the curve on Athena f2.2's, and do not know how their phase stabilizes. Anybody else? They may be tube friendly. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4232 Registered: Dec-04 | I know a lot of posters love the speakers, and H/K mate up very well, but H/K usually drive any mainstream stuff without issues. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9177 Registered: May-04 | . I wasn't challenging you, Art. I was trying to find any more information that might be useful to all of us, new and old to tubes. For the most part, what makes a speaker tube friendly will also make it just plain amplifier friendly. . |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicroverRosville, Ca Post Number: 21 Registered: Aug-06 | Wow, A lot to digest. I do understand that my ears will be the ones ultimately deciding what I like however getting additional information and suggestions from all of you is a real help. I am not looking to impress anyone as far as a "name brand" I am more interested in a quality unit that will provide the biggest bang for the buck. So a lesser-known company is fine by me if their product met that criteria. For conversation lets say I would have any major upgrades completed by a professional. It would appear that after reading through the thread an integrated amplifier has more opportunities for some simple tweaks here and there opposed to an SS unit. Is this a fair assumption? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3571 Registered: Feb-05 | I didn't take it that you were Jan. I was serious when I said that I am not as technically proficient as you or my friend. That's actually why I called him yesterday. I continue to be perplexed by the bright sound that I am still getting sometimes and he was clarifying the many variables that may be playing into it and helping me to problem solve it. He gave me a bit of a lecture on how tube amps don't handle back emf like SS amps do which in a totally incompatible situation can lead to a phenomena called ringing. That was just one of the many variables he discussed. So as you can see I would rather you talk to the expert and in fact you are quite knowledgeable as well. For tube newbies, what seems easy for a seasoned veteran, is considerably more (sometimes of our own making) complex. Actually I called Kevin Deal of Upscale and several other knowledgeable folks that I know and think that I may have it solved (crossing my fingers). |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 11 Registered: Sep-06 | My initial reaction to comparing Jolida to Sony Or Bose was identical to Jan, but I see both points. The tube amp kit Jan suggested looks like a LOT of fun to try out. I may just give it a go, still pondering. Jan- I read elsewhere a full range driver is not the best choice for rock. I read a lot about them following your links and then ending up who knows where... Doing so, along with all my research to date and our ongoing amp discussion has made realize two things. One: Most peoples initial reaction to the term rock n roll/metal is not one of finesse, subtleties or nuances. Its more about power, volume and punch. Two: I love the latter three dont get me wrong. But feel I have a more refined ear, and most of what ive heard, modern car audio included, is sonically missing the point. Maybe I want something that isnt achievable, have my cake and eat it too....? But what good is punch and volume with no feel? Now it will sound strange to say (maybe not here) that something like Slayer, Megadeth, or Metallica to use extreme examples...have feel...maybe its not ones cup of tea..but it does have it. Delving into the hi-fi world over the last year and reading equipment reviews ive read incredibly detailed and specific (and interesting dont get me wrong) examples of jazz, or Beethoven or Mozart's music, and how the individual symphonic instruments sound in the mix. Rarely...(mark never)...have I read as deep a description of anything along the lines of Savatage's Streets: A Rock Opera, or Iced Earth's Horror Show. Just two examples of many but both incredibly well done, intricate and emotional metal albums. Also, what I seem to grasp from my research is a somewhat devisive this or that approach. Based on my experience so far I believe theres far more to it. If a system could render the Iced Earth album I mention above with good clarity and power, it should not have any problem for example with Kenny G or celine dion (double yuck) and sure as hell not wimp out on Mozart right? Am I way off to think that rock/metal is more demanding then most music on a audio system? Also back to my guitar amp examples. One sound I love is a heavily saturated metal sound. Every salesman, the magazines and forum posters recommend Marshall, Randall, Mesa, etc etc... Well after playing all of them I dont get it, I feel they are all missing the point (obviously based on sales the masses dont agree). My favorite amp is the small EL84 based 35 watt Peavey I talked about earlier. It would only be "recommended" if you went asking for a classic rock or blues amp. I say bullsh**, if you think that your not open minded and sure as hell not LISTENING. It will certainly do classic rock, it will do blues, but it will also do metal, it will get as mean and nasty as you want, but it does it with class. And when its time to go clean...its beautiful, emotional and wonderful. No Mesa, Hiwatt, Randall or Marshall or whatever can touch it for pure feel IMO. (some high-end boutique amps probably can) I get asked frequently how I get such a warm, saturated yet smooth sound out my little blues amp. I think the industry has most fooled. But im way off point....sorry...... My point is, I feel my tastes even being for rock n roll are a little more subjective and refined than most others I know. Overall I guess im saying I see many parallels and all this makes it hard to gauge where to start. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3572 Registered: Feb-05 | Probably the tube integrated with the best reputation for rock is the Manley Stingray. It is an EL84 based system that has a storied rep for rock already in it's young existence. http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html Perhaps you can find this amp on the used market. It will likely be worth it. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicroverRosville, Ca Post Number: 22 Registered: Aug-06 | Tyler, Thank you for putting into words what I could not. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3573 Registered: Feb-05 | 'Am I way off to think that rock/metal is more demanding then most music on a audio system?" Having been through my rock days (and still having a few hundred discs) I would say that different music has different demands on systems. I have found that it is more rare for a system to accurately reproduce the sound of an unamplified instrument than an amplified one. For one we really don't have any idea what the often overproduced amplified music was intended to sound like. We weren't there so the only one who knows the artists intent is the artist. We are simply left with an opinion about whether we liked how it sounded without any idea of how it was supposed to sound. On the other hand we often do know what a live unamplified clarinet sounds like and if a system gets it wrong it's likely that the whole of the sound is off rendering the music and hence the artists intent inaccurate (not to mention unpleasant). Certainly metal places dynamic demands on a system that can only be equaled or surpassed by orchestral music. The variable in orcestral music is the hall and your place in it but still one can pick out the clarinet and oboe if they sound right and wonder where they are if they don't. No such mystery with a 3 piece rock band. Just some observations. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 12 Registered: Sep-06 | Hey Rover....glad my ramblings sometimes make sense! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 188 Registered: May-06 | Dang Art, just invite the artist (of amplified music) to your house, play his / her music on your setup, offer an appetizer and a couple of beers, then solicit some feedback. That way you'll know. Then again no. They'd tell you that they've heard so many variations and cuts of their sound on pro gear and in the mixing studio that there is no way to tell you how it compares. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9178 Registered: May-04 | . TP - Just as you perceive Metal as getting an undeserved reputation, I find tubes to be underrated for Iced Earth. You get to hear whatever you can out of the music you prefer. But nuance is not the first term that comes to mind when Iced Earth's Horror Show is mentioned. And nuance is what SDFR's and SET's do best. My approach to system building is to use the strengths of each piece of gear to get to the composite result I want to achieve. That places limitations on what equipment I choose based on my budget, what music I listen to and what qualities I listen for. The music dictates the system in some sense and the system should never dictate the music. Simple designs do simple music extremely well. The harsher the demands of the music, the less well done it will appear on the simplest system. I wouldn't expect Iced Earth to sound their best on a SDFR anymore than I would expect Mahler to sound best on such a speaker. That doesn't restrict you to listening to only Kenny G on such a system, but realize what your main music content will be and find the system that compliments it. It doesn't necessarily follow that a system that can render Metal with clarity and power would do Kenny G or Celine Dion well since their music doesn't rely on power for the desired results. Budgets largely place the most restrictions on how much music a system can handle well. Give me a substantial budget and I can put together a "simple" system that meets my needs for either Iced Earth or Mahler. If your budget allows the better system, then I see no reason why you shouldn't consider such a speaker or amplifier. The Manley gear is excellent for almost anyone's taste. But, budget-wise, the Manley and the Jolida are worlds apart, even when purchased used. If your budget means you have to pick a "lesser" product, then make the most of the system you can afford. A better system at any price should allow more music to be appreciated, not less music. Read the music choices used when Fostex and so forth are reviewed. There are some more expensive Fostex drivers which will do what you want, just as the Manley would probably do what you desire. Certainly stepping up to a Lowther driver would be a large improvement with an attendant rise in cost. When you find the reviewer using the music you prefer on a SDFR or SET, then I don't see why you shouldn't give the system a try. If, on the other hand, you read budget gear reviews and see the reviewer using Gordon Lghtfoot as a reference, you might want to steer clear of that product for your music. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9179 Registered: May-04 | . TP - Have you considered a pair of headphones? Even a $150 set of phones will go further toward capturing both the power and the nuance you seem to want than a pair of speakers at 10X the price. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1469 Registered: May-05 | Rover - I responded to your thread in speakers, but will respond here too. "Now it will sound strange to say (maybe not here) that something like Slayer, Megadeth, or Metallica to use extreme examples...have feel...maybe its not ones cup of tea..but it does have it." I agree 100%. I listen to a lot of Metallica, Tool, and Korn, along with most classic rock. My favorite gear that I can realisticly afford by far is Naim. Creek and Rega also make gear that does rock some justice. Just my 2 cents. I have very little experience with tube gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 13 Registered: Sep-06 | Jan - Good points all the way around. "Desired reults"...yes certainly. I guess MY desired results if somehow I was to listen to Kenny G or Celine Dion would certainly be met by a setup more geared towards rock. What does SDFR and SET stand for? Im assuming the technical names for tube and solid state? Yes I have considered headphones, particularly read alot about the Grados in that price range. Never been much of a headphone guy though, I find them too claustrophobic. Im sure they would be a great solution when more analytical listening is happening. Art - I agree with your two cents...good points. Ive spent the last couple of days doing a lot of looking into the Manley Stingray. Looks very impressive. The description of what they are going for seems to ring true with my idea of things, yes...very pricey..even used..by comparison. I may have a chance to demo the stingray next month and I believe he carries NAD gear so it might be a good education. I probably shouldnt compare based on price, but will be hard to resist! |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicroverRosville, Ca Post Number: 26 Registered: Aug-06 | I have been reviewing the NAD as an option. Can anyone tell me what the pros and cons are for the Nad c162/c272 amp and preamp and the Nad c272 integrated amp? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9181 Registered: May-04 | . SDFR - Single Driver, Full range SET - Single Ended Triode http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=single%20ended%20triode |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4530 Registered: Dec-03 | Like Rick, I've just found this thread. Nice to see the old dogs! As I've posted before, I don't personally buy the best-for "rock/jazz/classical/acoustic/etc" argument. I note that guys driving past with street-shaking subs in their cars are not normally playing string quartets. But they are broadcasting, not listening, and raw amplitude is probably what they want most. You get more of that for your money from solid state amps, no question. My visiting son recently got a Bob Marley CD and I tried it on our Quad ESL speakers with Prima Luna PL2 (40 WPC) integrated tube amp. Terrific. "No woman, no cry". Real atmosphere. Live recording. Audience sings along. Like being there. Just as loud. And you can hear the words. One bass guitar is probably the deepest sound - a breeze for most speakers driven by modestly-rated amps in normal listening rooms. Not so with Mahler, who was often trying to demolish the concert hall with massive brass and percussion. All music has subtleties such as inflexion, intonation, timbre. Not to mention "imaging". Personally, I think those are the areas where the magic is. Whatever the genre. Hope that helps... |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 881 Registered: Nov-05 | Not that I have experience with tubes amps, but I'm inclined to agree with John. It's all music no matter the genre and a decent amp should do all types well. Notes is notes are they not? |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 14 Registered: Sep-06 | Jan - Thanks...more good info. And I forgot to mention, good to see your famliar with Iced Earth. Im getting a great education thanks to all you guys. I sincerely appreciate it. John and Rantz, you pretty much summed up my experience with tube guitar amps. I know I keep bringing it up...its my only reference, forgive me. A lot of people would have you believe you need type "a" for jazz, or type "b" for rock..etc etc. I believe its perpetuated by the industry ie they sell more amps. I say BS. Now you do need certain qualities(distortion for metal for example) but good tone is good tone. I describe it as feel. |
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