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New member Username: Ntv69Post Number: 1 Registered: Sep-06 | Lookin to buy a home theater receiver to replace my hk 3480(120x2 stereo amp). HK doesn't even make a home theater amp that puts out that kinda power any more since avr7300. So im looking for some recomedations. Yamaha HTR5990B?? Onkyo??Denon?? Also im in canada so HK stuff is about 2x the price here as in US. I have ikon cm6800 towers. Check them out, they really are amazing. http://www.ikon-audio.com/products/cm6800.html Also how is JR.com to deal with?? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1917 Registered: Feb-04 | HK doesn't even make a home theater amp that puts out that kinda power any more since avr7300. That's because 120Wx2 yields 240W, and 7x120W yields a whole lot more. There's no a whole lot of difference in sound between what you can accomplish with 60W and 120W, so I wouldn't even worry about it. Also im in canada so HK stuff is about 2x the price here as in US. Absolutely right. That's why I got my h/k receiver from www.ecost.com, a www.borderfree.com affiliated site that gives you a price in Canadian dollars, shipped to your door with all taxes and custom fees included in the price. I have ikon cm6800 towers. Check them out, they really are amazing. Where did you get them? They seem a bit white-van to me, unfortunately. The web site has that feel to it. A web search told me that the MSRP is $7000 for these? Unlikely. Also, two 12" powered subs per speaker, and they don't go lower than 30 Hz? That's weird. The "dealer locator" links says coming soon, which is always fishy. Lastly, they list their contact as 21000 TransCanada Highway, Baie D'Urfé, Québec. This is the address for JAM Industries, a major distributor in Canada for products such as harman kardon, JBL and lots of others. Yet doing a search for "Ikon" on their web site yields no hits at all. Looks fishy to me. Sorry. Also how is JR.com to deal with?? Someone I know in Newfoundland said they were very pleasant to deal it. He shipped his gear UPS Air (and not UPS ground) and, while expensive, that included all brokerage fees. UPS ground (or FEDEX for that matter) can turn out to be as expensive or even more as they pile on exorbitant brokerage fees after you get your shipment. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4590 Registered: Mar-05 | Have to agree with Peter: man, those ARE cheesy-looking speakers...reminds me of the SDATs that Tawaun (wonder what happened to him?) used to talk about. Generally speaking, when a company throws a gazillion drivers into a cabinet, they are usually going after the bling-bling, teenage ghetto-blaster consumers...so instead of say 2-3 really high quality drivers you get 8 crappy drivers that actually cost less, so they pocket a fatter profit per speaker. As for HK and power numbers, the vast majority of big manufacturers grossly exaggerate their specs in order for the sake of naive newbies...Onkyo and Yamaha, along with Sony, are some of the worst. http://audio.erobinson.net/ HK and NAD are 2 companies that use very conservative power ratings. So a "75wpc" HK is likely equal or more powerful than a "150wpc" Yamaha. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1657 Registered: Sep-04 | Neil Why do you need so much power. The specs on the site say those speakers are 93db which should mean that even a 60w amp can drive them easily. Have you got a very large room? Denon's 3806 is capable of 120wpc into 8 ohms. Should be more than enough for most applications. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: Ntv69Post Number: 2 Registered: Sep-06 | Well i use every drop of power my hk3480 has. So dont want to have any less power. I bought speakers at visions electronics, paid about 3500. Worth every penny. Best sounding music speakers i have ever heard. Sorry no white van. Alot like nuance speakers. Well built, awesome sounding, have not seen a speaker that sounds as loud and good as these. A bit over kill for movies i guess. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1919 Registered: Feb-04 | Well, 93 dB sensitivity and frequency response to 30 Hz should not correspond to the loudess speaker one has ever heard. Did they sell them to you like Nuances? A demo with some brand rep on hand, and they have a special price for that one day because the company rep is there? $3500 is a lot of money to spend on speakers. Find an HT receiver with pre-outs, and use your current h/k as an external amplifier to drive the front two speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1921 Registered: Feb-04 | http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10028.html http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=41863 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/230377.html |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 158 Registered: Apr-06 | What kind of budget did you have planned for this little venture? A real 120 watts or more in 5 or 7 channels tends to be pretty expensive. You could always try going second hand however. The HK model you mentioned wouldnt be a bad choice. However, as others have mentioned, the difference in actual volume from 60 watts to 120 is only 3dB, which isnt as huge as one might expect. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1923 Registered: Feb-04 | Well, I have email both JAM Industries and Erikson Comsumer (a division of JAM at the same address), and got a positive reply from Erikson: Hello Peter, Ikon Audio is in fact a true loudspeaker line designed and developed by us, Erikson Consumer, a division of Jam Industries. The website is a work in progress as we plan on launching some new models very soon but if you have any questions concerning the product that haven't been answered on the site, I'd be happy to answer them. I've attached a document that goes into more detail on the models for you. Best regards, Jason Zidle Erikson Consumer Marketing Communications Manager So these speakers are for real. But they are very expensive, given that they are unknown and unreviewed. Have you compared them using your own music to similarly priced speakers from, say Paradigm (also Canadian, although the parent company is now American) or another leading brand? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1662 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter I remember Dynaudio Confidence 5s which had isobaric loading, were sealed units, cost around $9000 and only went down to 35 hz. It's not that unusual for speakers not to go down to the 20s. the important thing is that they go down as far as they go cleanly and well. Neil, I can only imagine that you must have a large room to drive those speakers so hard. You're really looking at the bigger surround receivers if you want a consistent amount of power. The problem is that it gets quite expensive to do lots of power and speed and clean. One of the best value options would come from Rotel - very robust amplification, bulletproof some would say. However, you'd probably be better off with their separate processor and power amp combinations. Rotel are getting into class D technology in a big way. Their class D multichannel power amp, the RMB1077, has had very good reviews and is very powerful at 100w x 7 channels. If your speakers are biwirable, you could use 2 channels per speaker and still have another 3 to drive the centre and rears (I do this kind of thing with my system). If you insist on more power, Rotel's RMB1075 or 1095 are 120w and 200w respectively, all channels driven, but they're 5-channel amps. Also, they're the more usual Class A/B configuration which is why they're really big beasts by comparison to the rather diminutive RMB1077. You'd need a processor of course and Rotel's are pretty good too. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1924 Registered: Feb-04 | Sure Frank. My own speakers cost in the thousands and only go down to 33 Hz. But my pair doesn't have 4 amplified 12" subs bundled inside! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 987 Registered: Dec-03 | Neil: Before you get too lustful for a Yamaha receiver, please understand that Yamaha rates their receivers with only 2 channels driven at a time. So, when you look at a 100 wpc yamaha home theater receiver, it will only put out 100 wpc when doing only stereo, and then only at one frequency (1Khz). When driving a 5.1 system, for example, it is likely that the power output is cut by about 40% or more, so you would be lucky to get 60 wpc (again, at only 1kHz!). Across the entire audio frequency, it is likely that you would make only 40 wpc. Now, Harman/Kardon is one of the very few receiver manufacturers that is honest about its power ratings. The difference here is that Yamaha, like almost all of the mass market brands, uses a very small, under-powered, power supply. H/K, however, uses a very brawny power supply that can deliver real current to your speakers (current, not "power" is the key). I dare say that when driving a 5.1 system, a 55 wpc H/K is MORE powerful than the so-called 100 wpc Yamaha. I have compared the two side by side, driving the same speaker system and the same program, and I can tell you , unequivocally, that the H/K is more powerful than the Yamaha. It sounds louder and fuller (no straining, unlike the Yamaha). Denon and especially Onkyo are even worse than Yamaha about power. Two years ago, Onkyo introduced their new top of the line 901, rated at 125 wpc (MSRP was something like $1800). Sound and Vision magazine bench tested it and discovered that when driving 5 channels, the power dropped to something like 56 wpc. When driving 7 channels, it was 54 wpc. I went to hear it and even at that power level, it sounded like it was straining to drive the fairly efficient speakers that were playing (B+Ws). It was like the thing was constipated. If you want real power, stick with H/K, or look into NAD, Marantz, Rotel, or Adcom. The mass market brands are simply hopeless, IMO. Good luck! |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1080 Registered: Oct-04 | Why not buy a decent Yamaha or Denon receiver to cover off the features and sound processing then add in a couple of outlaw monoblocks or other decent power amp? |
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New member Username: Ntv69Post Number: 3 Registered: Sep-06 | I see Hk avr340 has preouts. If i kept my HK3480 and ran a avr340 for movies, how well will that work? I only need the big power for 2 chan music listening. I only have one set of terminals on speakers? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1926 Registered: Feb-04 | You could use your hk3480 as a power amplifier for the main speakers, with the volume control always set to one (very high) setting. Or you could also use stereo gear in alternate inputs of the hk3480, and then you'd have to remember to turn down the volume before switching inputs. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 994 Registered: Dec-03 | Neil: One thing you should understand is that the power rating for stereo is usually much higher for stereo than it is for HT. So, even if you got a modest 55 wpc H/K HT receiver, it is going to put out 70 wpc in stereo mode. I have a suggestion for you. Find a good H/K dealer, and take your Ikons in during a period when he is not busy (I usually find Saturday mornings to be great). Have hime hook up your Ikons to a H/K 340 just to see how loud that receiver plays in stereo mode. I think you will be surprised. As I have said many times--it isn't a question of power, but a question of current. Those two things are related, but are not the same thing. The H/Ks produce an amzing amount of useable current to the speakers. Good luck! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4183 Registered: Dec-04 | I was going to suggest a 5 channel amp to bi-amp those expensive speakers, but they do not even bi-wire. Ouch. Nonetheless, the above ideas are all viable, particularly the outlaw monoblocks. |
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Silver Member Username: Riches1Atlanta, GA US Post Number: 222 Registered: Apr-04 | Hawk, "Denon and especially Onkyo are even worse than Yamaha about power." ????? I don't know what evidence you have to support this statement. The following data was taken from actual tests from various sources, mostly S&V, regarding WPC for "mainstream" and other receivers. While Denon overestimates slightly, they are nowhere close to the exaggerated power claims made by Onkyo or Yamaha. Receiver/ WPC claimed / WPC-5ch tested HK 330 /55 /66 HK 7300 /110 /145 Denon 3805 /120 /107 Denon 2805 /110 /86 Yamaha RX-750 /100 /61 Onkyo901 /110 /50 Most power ratings are meaningless, anyway. There is no industry standard on measuring receiver power. Power ratings that read " 70 watts continuous, all channels driven, at 20Hz to 20KHz" never happens in the real world. Those power measurements are done generating a test tone and measured against a non-inductive resistor. A 20Hz to 20KHz test tone is white noise, not music. The power tests are never made while playing music and are never measured at the speaker. What happens in a real world setting, are musical peaks and rapid millisecond bursts. Most well regarded 100WPC receivers (Denon, Yamaha -especially the RX-V's, H/K, NAD, Marantz, Pioneer and even Onkyo will be able to handle anything that the typical home theater throws at them. Some inefficient 4 ohm speakers or electrostatics may be the exception, in which case they should probably be driven by a separate amplifier anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1933 Registered: Feb-04 | I see that JAM/Erikson is also behind Sound Stage Audio speakers: http://www.soundstage-audio.com/home.html |