100% HT with Denon
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New member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 9 Registered: Sep-06 | I am wondering if Polk Audio will go well with a Denon AVR-3806. This will be for a 100% HT. I am looking for top of the line HT sound. I am thinking of getting the RTi10's, CSi5, and 2 pair of FXi3's to complete a 7.1 setup for a 100% home theater. This will also be complimented with a SVS PB12-NSD woofer. Also will get a Toshiba HD-DVD player and Buttkicker to go in setup. Is there anything else I would need? Is Polk Audio good for just home theater? If not what is the top of the line company for just home theater sound? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4533 Registered: Mar-05 | Polks would be fine, as would less expensive speakers. For 100% HT I would recommend the smaller RTi6 over the RTi10 for your fronts, esp. since you'll be using a robust SVS sub. The RTi10 would just be wasted money, space, and much bigger power drain on your receiver. HT sound is very, very elementary compared to music sound, so I honestly don't believe there is any such thing as a "top of the line" speaker company for it---any mid or sometimes even entry-level music speakers will do as long as they deliver adequate clarity and detail. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1862 Registered: Feb-04 | I disagree. Dynamics, dynamics, dymanics. That's what HT is mostly about IMHO. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4535 Registered: Mar-05 | Peter, please provide a detailed explanation of what you mean by "dynamics" since it can be a very vague and generalized term. IME, home theater is mainly about the subwoofer (if you're into big-budget action/thriller flicks) and the center speaker (dialogue being 60% of most movies and at least 90% of most TV programming). |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1863 Registered: Feb-04 | Dynamics because the dynamic range in a typical movie track is quite large. Often within a few seconds you'll go from super quiet to a loud orchestral music track and sound effects (not just LFE). Sure, I'll agree that what people notice most in the majority of home systems is the LFE content on the sub. It is very impressive. When I spoke of dynamics, I guess I should have said as far as it concerns the front speakers. Visiting friends are very often impressed by the quick play in dynamic range on my HT system; it's a quality lacking on most low-end systems. I'll also agree with you that the center speaker needs to be well-matched to the two left and right front speakers, and of equal quality. My center speaker is much smaller (while still being "large" by modern standards) than my mains, and doesn't have quite the dynamics of them either. I can often pick it out as a little strained during scenes with large dynamic range, but only by comparison because the main speakers are so effortless in their presentation. Perhaps I wouldn't have noticed if I had 5 identical speakers like my center. So that made me disagree on the elementary nature of HT sound. Plus, most movies I watch have great music in the sound track. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4536 Registered: Mar-05 | I'm sure you've told me before but I can't remember: what speakers are you using presently, and which have you had before? Could you provide some examples of certain speakers that you'd consider to be more or less "dynamic" than others, and also specific scenes in specific movies where this "dynamic" quality really stands out? |
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New member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 10 Registered: Sep-06 | Thanks for the response sp far. Any other suggestion to the original post would be well appreciated thanks. remember that this is a 100% Ht and I woild like top quality products in it. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4538 Registered: Mar-05 | Besides downsizing the main speakers, I'd suggest getting a less expensive AVR like a Marantz 5600, Pioneer 1016 or HK 340 and adding those 200wpc Outlaw monoblocks for the front 3 speakers particularly if you insist on going with floorstanders. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 147 Registered: Apr-06 | I think I'm going to have to tend to disagree with the others a bit here in regards to not needing high quality speakers for HT. If movies were all explosions and gunfire, sure it wouldn't be hugely important. However, as Peter points out, there is a little more than that. Most movies feature quite a bit of dialogue; an inaccurate speaker won't reproduce it clearly or accurately. While I wouldn't neccisarily recommend my speakers in your particular case, the human voice sounds particularly realistic on them. It was one thing that struck me actually, and one reason among many why I love them. Some questions before I go too far though: How large is your theatre room? Have you listened to the Polks? Have you listened to any other speakers? Mind you, I'm not questioning your system; all of the components you selected are of respectable quality, although some will surely argue that there are better values to be found (particularly in the online market). But I would certainly consider broadening your horizons and seeing what else is out there if you have not already. A few brands among many to check out (and should be readily available depending on where you hail from) are Definitive Technology, Klipsch, Ascend Acoustics and Paradigm. As far as your choice in receiver, I won't really question it too much; it should power the majority of speakers on the market with ease. You might check out alternatives from Harman Kardon and Marantz however, as they are typically reputed for having extremely high quality power supplies and can be found on the cheap by Eddie in a heartbeat. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1866 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm sure you've told me before but I can't remember: what speakers are you using presently, and which have you had before? Could you provide some examples of certain speakers that you'd consider to be more or less "dynamic" than others, and also specific scenes in specific movies where this "dynamic" quality really stands out? These are questions for me Ed? I'm using Klipsch heritage series all around: Klipschorn as main, Heresy as center and La Scala as surround. Sub is a Hsu STF-3. Less dynamic speakers, for example, would be Paradigm (Monitor or Studio) but let's not start a flame war about that here. I'd also list my Nuance as less dynamic than my Klipsch, but you're not as likely to know that Canadian brand. I don't have a movie scene off the top of my head. I'd have to go pop in a DVD at random and find one. I didn't want to recommend anything in particular, but, yes, I do think that horn-loaded speakers are well-suited to HT. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4543 Registered: Mar-05 | yep, Qs were for you. I guess I have never really heard "dynamics" really listed as a criterion and never seen it concretely elaborated. Your preference for K-horns over Paradigms sounds very similar to what is normally described as "bright" over "warm" which I would agree to be true for HT but far less so for music. I have heard K-horns before and while they are not quite "bright" in the same way that say JBLs are, I would never call them "warm" or "neutral." |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1871 Registered: Feb-04 | I don't equate bright to high in dynamics either, nor I find Klipschorns to be bright rather than revealing. Granted, you tend to play music at its natural level (e.g. rock louder than jazz), and bad, bright rock recordings (think electric guitar recorded higher than drums) will sound ear-bleeding bright at 115 dB with any speaker. Except the Paradigm can't reach that level while the Klipschorn hardly breaks a sweat, so the Klipschorn will therefore sound brighter, since it will be played louder. But being able to play loud does mean you have to. Play some Diana Krall on Klipschorns and the last thing you'll say is bright. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 11 Registered: Sep-06 | All right, well I am enjoying the entertainment. Now as for my orginal question. am wondering if Polk Audio will go well with a Denon AVR-3806. This will be for a 100% HT. I am looking for top of the line HT sound. I am thinking of getting the RTi10's, CSi5, and 2 pair of FXi3's to complete a 7.1 setup for a 100% home theater. This will also be complimented with a SVS PB12-NSD woofer. Also will get a Toshiba HD-DVD player and Buttkicker to go in setup. Is there anything else I would need? Is Polk Audio good for just home theater? Also will the Denon be enough to power all of these components?? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4546 Registered: Mar-05 | Those Polks + that Denon = fine for HT. You could spend 1/3 as much money and get the same result however. And instead of the PB12 you could move up to the PB12/Plus2 which is a real beast and will be much more appreciated by everyone who comes over than an overpriced AVR and unnecessary towers. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1074 Registered: Oct-04 | Top of the line home theatre sound? Look at M&K S-150/250. I have the Polk Rti8s, Csi3, Fxi3, and PSW404. I would recommend all except the PSW404. I'd agree with what Edster said about the 10s, the 8s would perform better with the added midrange driver, and you don't need the 10s bass with an SVS sub. Both the 8s and 10s can eat up a lot of power to sound their best, I added a 200W a channel power amp and noticed a major improvement over my Harman Kardon 430. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4068 Registered: Dec-04 | Anything else you need, King. Yes, some good quality interconnects and speaker wire. Not high dollar necessarily,but good quality. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4547 Registered: Mar-05 | Ascend is actually very similar to M&K (extremely neutral & accurate) but at a much lower pricepoint, which should come as no surprise since the owner used to design for M&K. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4548 Registered: Mar-05 | AKP, You might want to read this thread to see just what kind of quality you can get for surprisingly very little money: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=720754&page=1&pp=30 In particular, these posts: #35, 45, 47, 51, 52, 56 |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 13 Registered: Sep-06 | Thanks for the repsonse so far. I am really need to kind of understand all of the thingas i will need to update my home theater because I am about to get it started. I have two final questions for yall. 1. Is there any major difference between the RTi10's and RTi8's?? 2. If was to by the 7.1 speaker package from Polk audio, SVS sub, and Buttkicker I named earlier, what all would I need, like along with the Denon AVR-3806 would I need amp to power all of this or I am I going to need something else. Please list any little thing you think I will need because I do not want to leave anything out. Thanks for the help. I greatly appreciate it all. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 15 Registered: Sep-06 | bump |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4095 Registered: Dec-04 | King, you will need good quality interconnects and speaker wire. For speaker wire, I suggest liberty 14 or 12g. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4553 Registered: Mar-05 | I would suggest any generic 12-16 gauge speaker wire, and nice thick sturdy interconnects by Phillips can be had really cheap at Sam's warehouse club outlets. Much, much more important than silly cables: Avia calibration DVD and Radio Shack SPL meter, about $35 each. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1076 Registered: Oct-04 | I'd suggest power amp(s) for the Rti8s or 10s - something like the Outlaw M2200s - http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html or a NAD C272 http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C272-Stereo-Power-Amplifier |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 16 Registered: Sep-06 | Great stuff so far. Any more things i need to power my system?? Any other suggestions because I really need to narrow down exactly what i need so I can get a final total. Any more feedback appreciated. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4557 Registered: Mar-05 | A simple power backup would be handy, like this one: http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?edc=652278 |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 17 Registered: Sep-06 | All right I have one last question. This has to do with my final set-up and decision. This is for a 100% HT, so remember that. I am going to buy the Denon AVR-3806 receiver. I am going to also buy 2 Model 2200 M-Block Amplifiers from Outlaw Audio. Other hardware will include a Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player. I also *already* have a Motorolla HD cable box from Comcast and a 51" Sony KDF-50WE655 Rear Projection LCD tv. I also already have a Sony RM-AV2500 Integrated Remote Commander, which is my universal remote control. As far as the speakers go, I am going to purchase the Polk Audio RTi10's for fronts, CSi5 for the center, and 4 FXi3's for the 4 surrounds. The subwoofer will be a PB10--NSD from SVS. I also plan on geting the Avia Calibration DVD and Radio Shack SPL meter. For the speaker wire I plan on getting Liberty High Definition 12 gauge speaker wire. I will also pick up 2 Blue Jeans HDMI cables. This will be my set-up for my Home Theater. Is there any final recommendations for this set-up. Any last suggestions, or is there anything I am missing. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 19 Registered: Sep-06 | If you would replace anything or add anything let me know this also. Feedback is welcome. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 21 Registered: Sep-06 | If there is any other brand of speaker wire or HDMI cables that you think is better, please let me know. Also is it good to get a BUttkicker and of so, what do I need to power it. Thanks for any comments. |
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Silver Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 119 Registered: Aug-05 | Eddie- Klipschorn, Heresy, and La Scala have little in common with the present BB/CC mass market stuff from Klipsch. I believe Klipsch does still sale them in the Heritage line. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4562 Registered: Mar-05 | Quinn, I actually did hear the higher up Klipsch models they had at Sara International when I was there the first time. Also at All-Star Audio over on I-10. Certainly much better than the Klipsch stuff at BB but not terribly impressive given the pricepoint. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1895 Registered: Feb-04 | I can't afford them new either, but are a bargain in the used market. I'm blown away every day by the realism, dynamics, and imaging. How were they placed? How far were they separated? Did you sit in the crosshairs between the two speakers? Did the speakers disappear altogether? (This is way off-topic anyway.) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4564 Registered: Mar-05 | at SI they were about 12 feet apart and toed in, and yes I did sit in the sweet spot. At the other place they were in a room full of other speakers so placement was not optimal. But in neither space would I say they "disappeared"---that's a description I reserve for Magnepans and such. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1897 Registered: Feb-04 | I can't even imagine Klipschorns 12 feet apart Ed. Actually, I can. I once tried them 11 feet apart because that was the best WAF setup in my previous house. Man it sucked. I can't imagine they sell very many of them if they can't set them up properly. They are very impressive when correctly set-up because they do, in fact, completely disappear. It's funny because, as polar-opposite are Magnepans to Klipschorns, there is a lot of crossover between the owners of both. This is in part due to similar performance in terms of imaging. For example, read: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/788665.aspx Why do you reserve the term "disappear" for maggies? I thought you said that your speakers disappeared when you added your Nad amplifier? Actually, you said that the vocals appear to come from the center speaker, but I assumed that the rest of the sound field also was like that. I am currently playing with various layouts in my unfinished basement in order to decide how best to divide the space. I had them setup a bit under 18' apart since I moved in and up until a few days ago. The soundstage is very good, the instruments and vocals are a bit forward and sometimes so close you can almost touch them. The bass is tight and very, very strong. But my 2-feet thick 52" RPTV ends up being too close to us (about 7 feet). So I moved things around 2 days ago, tacking a temporary wall at an angle and making-up a false corner for one of the speakers. They ended up about 23 feet apart. I lost a lot of bass loudness (but not tightness), probably because of insufficient false corners but perhaps partly due to increased distance and volume. The imaging stayed for most recordings, but lost a bit of sharpness on others. The problem is that the instruments and vocals are now so far away from me I feel that I'm less involved. I don't know if I can get used to that. The RPTV screen was a nice 9.5' away. This morning my wife were discussing it and came up with an alternate scheme which might work. The speakers would end up about 18' apart again, but the RPTV would be recessed in a cavity such that the front of the screen would be aligned with the front wall, 9' away. In summary Ed, I have no problem making Klipschorns or La Scala's disappear (as a great number of people testify to on the Klipsch forums). I don't think I'd be very impressed either if I heard them the way you did. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4565 Registered: Mar-05 | No, having the vocals sound as if they're coming from dead center between the two speakers is not really what I'd characterize as "disappear"---I would use that word more for say Martin Logans or Magnepans, in which the music seems to be enveloping you from all directions. Good God, 18' apart blows my mind. Your room must be HUGE! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1898 Registered: Feb-04 | Okay, I misunderstood then. I blow people away first when the vocals start and I let them listen for a while and then tell them the center speaker isn't actually working. But it works for everything else too, except usually off-center. Only rarely do any sounds appear to come from the speakers themselves. Everything images to a point or spot in space. You feel like strings are getting plucked right in front of you, literally. As for 18 feet, well the basement is not finished apart from drywall on the outer walls. The area that I'm keeping for HT/music use could be as large as 18' by 23', but I haven't decided yet. The house has outer dimensions of 40x28' (but not all square) over the basement and two stories, so I'd say about 3000 sq. feet in total. It's a very nice size and we're very happy to have bought it. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1905 Registered: Feb-04 | Ed, I guess you've heard the Klipschorns about as well as I have heard the Paradigm Studio 60 and 100: in a crappy setup. I couldn't believe that what I was listenning to were the renowned Studio's, so had to attribute the disparity to room acoustics. So I decided to reserve judgement for when I finally do hear them correctly, because it was impossible that they be so bad. Perhaps you should do the same. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 22 Registered: Sep-06 | bump |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1908 Registered: Feb-04 | Sorry for the diversion away from your question. In my defense, I was just answering questions relating to dynamics. :-) Now, does anyone know if Polk Audio will go well with a Denon AVR-3806? ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4127 Registered: Dec-04 | I've found the polk line 10,8 Rti to sound pretty good, given the price. In a not-horrible setup with a H/K it was ok. Havn't heard a Denen for a while, but maybe the H/K 335 is close? |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 25 Registered: Sep-06 | Any last comments to my orginal question... any fina remarks would be appreciated before I start buying things. Make sure you read my second to last post to see what I am thinking about getting. I appreciate any comments. Thanks |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 181 Registered: May-06 | I use a Monster AVS 2000 Voltage Regulator (keeps a constant 120V into your equipment for sustained life) combined with a Monster HTS 5100 Power Line Conditioner (makes a big difference in picture quality and soundstage). Both pieces provided improvements in picture quality. Panamax and others sell combined units which may be a cheaper way to go. I bought the Monster products at Tweeter since they were clearancing out all Monster products. Edster may have some suggestions. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4171 Registered: Dec-04 | That is a fine selection there, King. Following along with Mike, you might want to have an electrician or somebody(yourself), I dunno, have a look at the circuit which will run your system, and see if it is clean. Not on the same branch as a refrigerator, A/C etc. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 226 Registered: Nov-05 | Or, just have a dedicated circuit put in? Not that expensive, a couple hours time from a qualified electrician. Had some (4) 30amp dedicated circuits put in for my main system, only cost 180.00, took about 3 hours. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 155 Registered: Apr-06 | I personally went with the UPS route; they perform voltage regulation, RFI/EMI filtering, surge protection, and battery backup. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 182 Registered: May-06 | Not all UPS handle all of that. An in home system at your mains coming in maybe, but a lot of stand alones do not do all of that or do it all equally as well. You get what you pay for. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1088 Registered: Feb-04 | UPS Voltage regulation Surge suppression Line noise filtering Not bad for $160 at a local big box. http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3071 |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 156 Registered: Apr-06 | Certainly not all UPS' are made equal, as with anything else in life; however, it is a route to consider. You should of course check with the mfr's specs to see what all the UPS in question does, but one that handles all of what I said shouldn't set you back more than 150-200, depending on the wattage that you need. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1457 Registered: May-05 | I use a UPS as well. I A/B'ed it against the lower two Monster units - can't remember model numbers, but they were the component chasis ones. The Monsters really didn't do much at all for me. My APC UPS cleaned everything up and protects against voltage problems. These things are system dependent, but more importantly are very dependent on the quality of power in your home. My power is crap. Con Edison is a nightmare. My APC UPS solved the problem. I strongly recommend A/B'ing one against whatever else you have in mind. Your milage may vary... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4176 Registered: Dec-04 | On my kit I run apc ups for the transdac and pre. The amp is heavy enough in the torroidal to suck up any transients. In fact, most any power amp is, it's just the electronics to be protected. If the power goes out at high volumes, the ups is still going to crash(although a little more softly). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4177 Registered: Dec-04 | So there you are. King. Nice clean power for a nicely built kit, chosen by a group of peers you have never met. How's that treatin' ya big boy? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1458 Registered: May-05 | "If the power goes out at high volumes, the ups is still going to crash(although a little more softly)." That's not what I use the UPS for. I use it as a power filter and voltage regulator. I have problems with brown-outs in my home. The voltage regulation is my primary concern. However, it handles the EMI and RFI filtering better than anything I've used in my home. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 161 Registered: Apr-06 | Ditto Stu. Actually though, since I only use a stereo receiver which draws 200 Watts on max load, and my UPS handles 540, it should be able to manage just fine. I can baffle the neighbors with how I'm able to blast off some of The Who's finer works while the power is out on the block  |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1459 Registered: May-05 | Stephen - Does the power supply in your receiver buzz when the UPS is on battery? Mine does, and hence don't use it when the power goes out. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1460 Registered: May-05 | Sorry, I meant to say "... and hence I don't use it when the power goes out." |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 165 Registered: Apr-06 | Havn't actually had an opportunity to test it out yet... |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 168 Registered: Apr-06 | Upon performing a little experiment, it does have a slight buzz. Interesting...Doesn't really get louder when music is playing (its completely drowned out), but I would be interested to know why that happens. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andruw25jones0Post Number: 26 Registered: Sep-06 | Great responses so far. I will definitley take the power into consideration. Probably a must. Any more comment will be appreciated thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4190 Registered: Dec-04 | steven, your receiver's power consumption is 200w? Consumption. Nearing the battery limitations will surely lower the voltage output. I was referring to King using the UPS to continue running through brown and black. King, when the battery light comes on, turn the kit off. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 176 Registered: Apr-06 | Nuck: Stereo receiver only. They do make UPS's with much higher capacity though. But yes, given the little experiment I ran at Stu's suggestion, I doubt I would really want to keep playing through a blackout. |
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New member Username: CraigbluePost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-06 | Hi I want to buy a complete home theatre with following combination: Front speakers: B&W S603, Rear: B&W 601 or 602 (not sure), centre: LCR60, Subwoofer: ASW600 or 650 (not sure) with a receiver either denon 2307 or 2807. What do you think? I'm totally confused, between those two choices there is not much of cost difference and will the combo be fine? Please help!!!! Thanks a lot. |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 11137 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes the combo will be fine. However, you really need to start your own thread instead of hijacking this one. |
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