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New member Username: PontusSweden Post Number: 1 Registered: Sep-06 | Hi! I need some help to find good speakers for classical (operatic) singing. At the moment I am using a pair of NHT 2.5i together with a NAD 317 amp (80W per channel). Generally I'm quite happy with these speakers. They are clear and precise and play orchestral music and jazz in a very spacious and satisfying way. But when it comes to classical singing they seem to lack the ability to reproduce the highest frequencies (2500-3000 Hz) which give the operatic voice its specific "silvery" ringing quality. Is this mainly the speakers "fault" or has it something to do with my amp? I've also used a pair of B&W DM602 S3 with this amp - getting the same result. So, should I by new speakers or invest in another amp? My budget is maybe 800-1000 dollars (I'm no stranger to buying used equipment). Opinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated. pontus |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4046 Registered: Dec-04 | PW, if you have not been satisfied with either speaker arrangement, you might consider an active crossover for your NHT's. Both these and the 602's are fine speakers, and would do what you describe to my ears, obviously not yours. Another grand for another pair might leave you just as dissatisfied, or trade off some other unknown qualities. If you consider active XO's let us know? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 144 Registered: May-06 | There is a good chance that room acoustics are a factor here since 2 different sets of speakers are exhibiting a problem at that frequency rate. One tip I just learned is that if you stand between your speakers and clap then hear echo (sounds like a high pitched ringing in your ear) you need a diffuser on the wall next to one or both speakers. There is a ton of information on room acoustics on eCoustics. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4051 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, I didn't know you had the clap. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 145 Registered: May-06 | Yeah, as soon as you get the itch you know... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4514 Registered: Dec-03 | Pontus, In my opinion you somehow have to listen to the effect of changing speakers on "the operatic voice". Probably the NHT 2.5i reproduces 2500-3000 Hz OK. Whatever explains your dissatisfaction, is unlikely to be as simple as a missing frequency band in the speakers. Try to find a good dealer who takes pride in service. If he stocks the equipment you have, take some opera discs and listen. If he does not stock the equipment you have, he should be willing to allow you to take your own, along with the discs, for comparison. He should also be able help to identify the problem, and suggest solutions, which you can try, to see if he is correct. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9105 Registered: May-04 | . It's difficult to answer a question about why one person would be dissatisfied with a particular quality such as "silvery" overtones. You are listening for something very specific that another listener might not notice is lacking. Depending on your familiarity with this particular vocal range and possible training in voice, you have a sensitivity that probably isn't shared by everyone. Therefore describing and finding what you want to hear is going to be very difficult for any shop to lead you towards. Not that it can't be done, but, as John suggests, you'll have to tell the dealer when you are convinced enough silver exists in the system for you to give up some of your own silver. Where exactly the problem exists within your system will be equally difficult to pick out. It may be a single component or it might be the cumulative effect of all the components. In any case, the area you feel lacks quality is one of the more difficult aspects of almost any system and certainly one based upon a reasonable budget. The first problem you might encounter is the speaker's crossover point(s). The range of frequencies you point to is centered within the typical crossover point for a two way speaker and is still used by many three way systems. This is where the signal crosses over from a large, one type of material driver to another driver with dissimilar material, size and dispersion characterisitcs. This discontinuity in driver make up will result in similar discontinuities in sound quality. The crossover itself can be the cause of your problems as many B&W speakers require exceptional equipment in front of them in order to not display some very unattractive qualites. Whether this is what you are particularly hearing isn't something I can tell you on a forum. But that is the place where I would begin my search for better reproduction of the female voice. Sometimes the soultion for this problem is to switch from a two way speaker to a a three way speaker or, at least, a speaker which places the crossover points at a higher or lower frequency. Often times this is not the solution due to the complexity of matching three drivers rather than two. The complexity of the crossover may make the task even more difficult on your amplifier. You might try a single driver system. To those who apppreciate their unique qualities, single drivers are the only way to accurately reproduce the overtones of the human voice. Similarly, a tube based system or one using MOSFETs might give exactly the quality you desire. Very good vacuum tube electronics are known for the silvery qualities they can impart to the human voice. MOSFETs are considered a more maintenance free way to emulate the sonic character of vacuum tubes. There are amplifiers such as the Unico line which combine both tubes and FETs in an attempt to give the best of both worlds. I would suggest you listen to an amplifier with something other than bipolar output devices if silver is what you seek. Be aware, however, that any system is a series of compromises. Searching for a system which produces silver in a very narrow bandwidth can leave you with a system which allows something far less precious to pass through in other areas of the system's range. Don't loose the balance of the whole in order to satisfy a small portion of what you require. Keep your eyes and ears open. Achieving the complete package which lacks for little is an expensive proposition and has led many listeners on an never ending quest for perfection. I would guess though most dealers will probably suggest your amplifier is not up to the job of driving your speakers properly. The speakers are very likely doing exactly what they are meant to do and allowing you to hear what is in front of them. How much you can gain for a reasonable outlay of money and effort is your decision. You haven't mentioned other parts of your system such as CD player or possibly a turntable. These could also be the source of your dissatisfaction. A visit to a good dealer with some of your favortie source material is the only thing to suggest, if that's the case. Someone much closer to your situation needs to hear what you are, or are not, hearing and suggest a course of action from there. At this point, the possibilities are too vast and could be as simple as speaker placement and some room treatment. If you haven't done anything to properly set up your speakers, you should investigate what can be done on your end for little to no cost. Proper placement and set up can make a system sound very different after an afternoon's work. A bit of knowledge regarding room acoustics can bring a slightly off system into focus. Use a search engine to explore the posssibilities of placement and treatment. There are sevearl articles and threads on both sujects on this forum to begin with. The web will provide numerous article to help you along. . |
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New member Username: PontusSweden Post Number: 2 Registered: Sep-06 | Thank you all for your opinions and advice. They are most appreciated. I realise that this is a problem with no defenitive answer. I most certainly will try some new placement to start with and then start a proper investigation. As an example on the complexity of this phenomenon I can mention that when I listened to a cd with tenor Franco Corelli (who had an exeptional amount of silvery overtones i.e. "singer's formant") in my friends car!, with rather old small speakers, the ringing was almost unbearable to the ears whereas in my living-room you practically can't hear any of it. Very frustrating when you know it's there! Nuck, what is active XO's? Something to do with crossover points mentioned by Jan Vigne? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4057 Registered: Dec-04 | PW, after Jan's dissertation, I have little to add. All of my points have now been covered, and step-by-step should begin with you placement and room response. Beyond that, I might still suggest an active XO, for adaptability, and focus, without losing some of the qualities that you might miss once they are gone. If it is time for some new stuff, however, you might seek Alegriaaudio.com I have a pair of single drivers that excel in your field of interest. The owner will also direct you to another product or option if that is what you need to find your voice. Ask for Tim. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9106 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - Did you look at where PW lives? That's some heavy duty freight charges just to listen to Tim's speakers. There are similar designs around PW's part of the world, I'm sure. PW - Though Nuck didn't quite answer your question regarding active crossovers, you can find more information on such devices by using a search engine. Just wade through the car stereo garbage to find home or pro audio choices. Companies such as Nady and Behringer sell such devices primarily to the pro audio market. There are some high end consumer audio companies which promote active crossovers for their speakers, but they are few and far between for some reason. However, substituting these devices for the crossovers already inside your B&W's would require some amount of surgery on your speakers. Depending upon your skills and confidence, this would be a route you might want to debate with a competent dealer. Keep in mind though, the crossover in many B&W speakers, as good at its job as it is, presents a difficult load for many amplifiers. This makes the B&W a speaker which often betrays its component siblings. How you resolve that issue is a choice you will have to make as there are several solutions any good dealer can explain to you. Bringing your own demo material on a slow weekday afternoon will be beneficial to any demonstration of the possible solutions. (Pick a time when the dealer can give you some demo time to listen in a quiet, relaxed atmosphere. This seldom happens on a weekend if the dealer is really good.) I would begin by returning to the dealer who sold you the B&W's, if at all possible. They should know their product better than anyone else and shouldn't begin an explanation of how to solve your problem by trash talking another brand (which you might happen to own or like). Any salesperson who begins the process of solving your problem by berating another product is, in my opinion, not going to be very helpful. They've made up their mind and are not interested in your opinion, only their own. A salesperson can point to how their gear solves the problem more efficiently or more completely, but shouldn't call anything else, especially what they don't carry, "trash". There are too many ways to build a good system for this to be the case. Should this occur, ask the salesperson/manager/owner to speak to the positive aspects of solving your problem, not how much they dislike another product. Remarks should be by way of comparison, "What your amplifier/speaker/source player can't quite manage is ... Here's how XXX solves that problem." Gratuitous swipes at another product serve no one well. I often suggest someone in your situation call ahead and ask for the manager/owner. Explain your situation and ask to be placed with the salesperson who is best suited to solving your problem. If Jerry, the new guy, only listens to electronic/amplified music, he probably isn't the person who will hear what you're describing. Don't take the chance Jerry will be the first aggressive soul to walk up to you when you enter the store. He may need a sale that day and push you toward even worse problems. Also, don't get caught up in whether a salesperson makes commissions. Honest salespeople exist in virtually any shop. Your job is to get the right person, in the right shop, most likely to help you solve your problem. Ask the manager if anyone at the shop prefers classical or opera, or some other music you appreciate. Set up an appointment with that person. Discuss whether it would be beneficial for you to bring in any piece of your equipment for comparison. I would normally say, no, it won't be beneficial on the first visit. Use this meeting to discuss and listen to what the shop has to offer as advice. Listen to some of their music as well as what you brought with you. Unfortunately, not all opera or classical recordings favor the best sound over getting the recording done as quickly (read cheaply) as possible. If you are using stock, free in the box interconnects and speaker cables, the shop might loan you a pair of higher quality cables to try out at home. As I said, there are many things which might solve your problem. When dealing with speaker set up, don't forget your listening position influences the final product as much as where the speakers are positioned. If you sit too close to the rear wall, the reflected information will almost always be too hard, too harsh and lack silvery overtones. The room is what you "hear", the system merely exists within the room. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9107 Registered: May-04 | . JW - Print this thread out and show the dealer what we've suggested. They can take it from there. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4515 Registered: Dec-03 | I thought of crossover problems, too. I looked up NHT and cannot find a spec for a 2.5i. However, The "Two" has a crossover at 3 kHz which would fit with your description of the problem, Pontus:- Now hear this. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 81 Registered: Apr-05 | Check the following link for info on the NHT 2.5i. http://nhthifi.com/2006/products/vintage/2point5i.html More information on the "Owner's Manual" link. (PDF) Crossover points are 100Hz and 3.3kHz. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9108 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, PW, I've been hitting wrong keys all day. I've had a long day and a short night. Call the dealer who sold you the current NHT's. They shouldn't be as difficult to drive as the 602's but the dealer will have a better idea of what you might require to properly drive this speaker or whether the speaker has problems in the area you describe. A quick glance says the rest of my information is OK. Please correct me if you spot any other errors. . |
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New member Username: PontusSweden Post Number: 3 Registered: Sep-06 | Thanks again for much appreciated advice. I have started to try some new placement and already the sound is improving! I'll just have to wait and see whether I need to contact my local dealer or not. Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1247 Registered: Apr-05 | PW when you mention what your system is missing when playing classical opera, what are you comparing your system to? Live? another system? |