In the last two hours I have just bought a brand new Rega P3 with Bias 2 cartridge.
Having carefully and lovingly set the thing up ready to go I put the stylus down on the run-in groove of the 30th Anniversary edition vinyl release of Dark Side Of The Moon. Sounded lovely. But then again, how could it not??? Nevertheless I figure this is a definite improvement on the turntable I've suffered with for the last six years (the bog standard Project Debut for £109 or whatever it was).
So...improvement number one. Sound quality. The next challenge I presented my new purchase with was to see if the level between vinyl and CD was as marked as it always has been. Many writers on here go on about vinyl on their system giving CD a 'run for its money' so I was hopeful that this could be the case with mine.
Sure enough...A/Bing between both the vinyl and CD copies I have of Portishead's Dummy showed that there is was still a wealth of difference between the output level of vinyl compared to CD.
Now then... Would anyone here say this is to be expected and lived with? OR.... Is it that the phono section of my amp (Pioneer A107) is not doing it's job. Do I need a phono booster of sorts to get the full value of signal from my brand new Rega P3? Maybe it wouldn't make any difference?? Maybe vinyl is simply quieter than CD?
I don't mind tweeking my tone controls on the amp but nevertheless I'd be interested to know if I'm simply missing out on the output of the signal because my Pioneer amp's phono section is weak.
Secondly.... During my research for a new turntable I'd already seen various people here saying (about the Rega P3) that there is an extra hum as the needle moves closer to the middle of the record (and therefore closer to the motor). When I brought with my hi-fi dealer he banged on about how the upgraded fixed motor had got rid of a lot of problems. But... Sure enough... There it is. On my brand new 2006 Rega P3..... HummmmmMMMMMMMMM.... As it reaches the centre.
I'd seen somewhere that simply leaving the turntable to run for hours and hours (or even, days) can remedy the problem. Can anyone vouch for that? If not then I'm needlessly draining the country's electicity supply away by letting my turntable go round and round for no reason.
Once I get used to limitations I can live with them. I'm not overly fussy but I have a discerning ear when I listen, I suppose (music has been my career for about fifteen years as well as being my favourite mode of leisure, let's say) and of course I want to enjoy my new turntable.
I would be grateful for any response on this (particularly Frank Abela's as he's pretty formidable in the knowledge stakes...though I suspect he'll frown at my choice of cartridge!!).
It's not unusual for the phono and CD outputs to be noticeably different in output level. However, your comment about tweaking the tone controls to compensate for output level variances needs clarification. Yes, you are boosting levels within the frequency range of the bass and treble controls but the overall output level remains constant despite the tone control settings. Therefore, I think you might need to repost that question in another form.
There are no phono boosters which would be useable with your cartridge. You might be thinking of step up devices which are common with a moving coil cartridge. Moving magnet cartridges such as yours do not use step up devices. Your phono section probably isn't "weak" if it works at all. It is simply dealing with lower voltages than the CD input and therefore outputs lower voltages also. The level difference in phono vs. CD are not uncommon.
Thanks Jan. First of all....absolutely right. I shouldn't have introduced the matter of tone controls into the matter. That relates to another foible that I have ie. CDs are deeper and brighter to my ears so for years I've boosted the bass and treble on my amp when I listen to vinyl. Not relevant to output volume, you're quite right....sorry!
Back to the main issue...
Firstly, I'm glad you've said that 'the level difference in phono vs CD is not uncommon'. I can live with that if I know it!! Plus...I'd already decided it's not a problem for me if I'm listening to something from way in the past which is a mile away from the overly 'loud' masters we have now on CD.
Secondly, I'm glad for your information about a step-up device not being applicable for my cartridge.
Thirdly, as I'd suspected, you've indicated that if the phono stage is working at all then it is unlikely to be weak. I wasn't convinced somehow that it was the quality of the amp at fault which, while not the best around by any means, still gives me a fantastic response for CD and, dare I say, my own music from my digital desktop studio software.
Nevertheless.... If 'the level difference between phono vs. CD is not uncommon' that leads me to wonder.... What about the less common cases???! How do they do it?
Interesting. The Goldring is a better cartridge, I'm sure... Though I've read of others who;ve had this trouble.
Perhaps it is the placement of my turntable which is adjacent to a stack of separates which includes the amp on the top. I have a hunch it may be simply that the arm is nearer to the amp (!) when it reaches the centre rather than the proximity to the motor being a problem.
This is all food for thought. I'd be grateful for other responses too, please.
The reason why most phono stages have lower output than line level is that they have to work around the sound/noise ratio. MM cartridges have an output of some 2.5mV on average. Line level (CD, tuner etc) have outputs of around 2V, or 1000 times that of a cartridge. As a phono stage amplifies the signal so much, it's very possible for the underlying noise of the phono stage's own circuit to be amplified along with it. Since your amp's inherent noise is relatively low it makes sense to use its volume control and keep the phono stage's gain lower.
Some modern phono stages run incredibly quiet and so can run with higher gain. For example my MC phono stage has such a high gain that it is pretty much indistinguishable in level from CD and the rest. My phono stage costs £2k!
You don't have to spend that much to get higher gain phono stages but anything below £1000 is going to have appreciably lower gain than my phono stage, and even expensive phono stages don't necessarily have that amount of gain.
You've put me in the picture with regards to phono stages. I've spent enough on my new gear of late (as well as heap more vinyl at this weekend's record fair!) so I'm just going to forego spending any four figure sums and in the mean time...turn up the volume!!!
Incidentally, any thoughts on the Rega P3 hum issue, anyone?
The hum is typcially a matter of the cartirdge not being the best match for the table. I would not expect this to be the case when using a Rega table and a Rega cartridge. If the table is new, I would contact the dealer for some help.
From what I've read, it appears to be entirely expected of the Rega P3!! And apparently using something like a Grados cartridge would accentuate it rather than remedy it.
I will contact my dealer, Jan, to see what they say nonetheless. I would be interested though if anyone else has remedied the problem by simply running the thing in (logic and common sense tells me this would hardly change matters but stranger things have happened, s'pose).
As I said above I had no hum with my Goldring cart and also using an AT 110 e. I have read about other carts (mainly Grado) causing a hum, but would have thought Regas own to be the least likely to exhibit this phenomenon.
I have a feeling that would help but the phono leads aren't long enough to enable me to move the amp very far from the turntable.
As it is, the hum is only noticeable on headphones if I turn the volume knob up to past the twelve o'clock mark. I'm unlikely to ever play anything that loud! And as yet, it hasn't been intrusive while listening to any of the records I've played so far. I doubt whether my dealer will say any different to the advice here. I may mention it when I get a new cartridge some time in the future!!
Other that all that, I'm just going to let it go. Nothing's perfect!
One thing you can do is this. The Rega arms are earthed on the left hand earth(outer) connection of the phono jack. You could get a bit of wire which is bare-ended on both ends. Touch it to the left jack and the earth post on your amplifier. If the hum reduces then just rig it so the wire stays in place. If not, then it's something else.
Whatever - what I mean is that you should connect the bare wire to the outer outer part of the phono plug. Incidentally, you must not let the bare wire touch or come into contact with the centre pin of the phono plug. This would really screw the sound.
Well... I've got myself a short piece of bare wire taken from an old lead. But I'm worried about the next part. I'm going to read your directions very carefully before trying anything (I'm a musician, not a technician...in fact I'm SICK of bloomin' gadgets today!!!).
So, Frank...with the phono jacks inserted into the inputs on the amp, you're suggesting I let one end of the bare wire touch the outer part of the left phono jack and the other end touch the earth post (or ground, as it says on the amp)???
OK, if there's an explosion and smoke.... I'll be very annoyed!!
So...as you say, then 'it must be something else'. Presumably you mean the problem is not at the P3 motor and cartridge end but with the amp (and its proximity to the turntable....which I can't test unfortunately due to short leads on the P3).
I have a similar problem with my Linn axis table. The hum peaks about an inch in to the record (from the outside) and is gone within another inch. I assumed that some part of the motor was located exactly here. I have a rather cheap grado cartridge (the cheapest) however, this is only noticeable, as Dave described on phones with the volume cranked about halfway.
