Have you installed acoustic treatments?
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 121 Registered: Jul-06 | Many of the responses in this forum continually leave me scratching my head. I have to ask how many of you have treated listening rooms? I get the impression that virtually none of the regular forum contributors have, and that seems strange to me considering this is a forum for audiophiles. Tim is the only person I have ever seen in this forum to comment on the positive effects of room treatments first hand.(and all he did was his ceiling) Why do so many of you appear knowledgeable about the subject, but neglect that very important step in building your own listening room? |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10521 Registered: Dec-03 | I use acoustic panels but the question about room treatment rarely comes up within the forum. Most of the questions stem from people who have not yet proclaimed themselves audiophiles and most are not looking to treat their rooms. What they want are components and rarely budget for room treatment. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 123 Registered: Jul-06 | Berny, Thanks for the response. My question was directed more towards offering assistance. (Not the HT newbie's asking for help) I'm sure you, Tim, and I will be on a very short list. That is why I asked the question, and why I am left scratching my head. It's not so much that posters don't directly ask about treatments, but oftentimes questions will arise where room acoustics issues are brought up inadvertently, and nobody in the forum seems to recognize it when it does. Often times a HT-newbie will arrive and start off with "I'm having this problem, and this is what's happening". In the process, he/she will perfectly describe one of many of the unwanted side effects of an untreated room, and it goes completely unrecognized by the resident forum audio-experts. That's why I was curious to see how many have taken the necessary steps when building their own sound rooms. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4029 Registered: Dec-04 | Rush, I see so many of yuor posts leading to room,room,room that I have read a few of your links. 2 observations. 1. My room is brutal and really needs some control. 2. Your observation that the subject is too dry and uninvolving for average people is rather poignant. I ain't no phile, just an enthusiast, though pushing the edge of gear, not knowledge. Dry, heavy plodding information is difficult to absorb, and this information is difficult to project as entertaining, or light at all... John Irving's last novel is 'light reading' compared to most room treatment info. Yes, I need it. No I am not likely to be capable soon. Yes it bores me to tears. Oh, and thank you for continuing to provide the great info. |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 10522 Registered: Dec-03 | I believe this is the perfect thread to insert the room treatment links, Rush. Should be quite interesting. Tips on hardwood floors, cement/concrete/marble floors, tiled floors. Rooms that open up to other rooms in the home, etc. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 787 Registered: Nov-05 | Man, I hate that word 'audiophile' (it sounds so - well - grubby) though granted its meaning is valid. I think Nuck summed it up with the fact that most posters here are audio enthusiasts. My problem is who judges what the 'audiophile' criteria is and my other problem is that many listening rooms are the main living area so the w.a.f. comes into the equation when it comes to room treatments. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9076 Registered: May-04 | . There are plenty of tips and informative threads already on the forum. They just exist in the "accessories" portion of the forum where no one ever goes. Acoustic treatments are a difficult sell. They "do" nothing. Do you know how hard it is to sell something that does nothing? People want to buy components which do something! Even a new interconnect is considered more exciting than room treatments. The audio magazines don't review room treatments because there's not a new model each year. The same solutions are the ones we've used for many, many years. The fact that a new interconnect is wasted in a worthless room is irrelevant to the typical buyer. New equipment is what they want, not something that competes with the furniture. Which is another problem with room treatments. You can sneak a new pre amp past the spouse. You have a much harder time hoping someone won't notice a half dozen bass traps and a few diffusion panels across each wall. Unless they are well done, most acoustic treatments stick out like sore thumbs in any room other than a dedicated listening room. This is even more problematic when the system is multi-purpose and resides in the living room. The trick there is to get people to use the environment they already have to improve their sound. As with our friend JH, most questions on this forum concerning sound quality come from people who have poorly set up their systems. Speaker/sub placement will do wonders for their sound quality. But seldom do they employ the free benefits of such a simple endeavour. Also, as with JH, their budgets are not in tune with most typical room treatments. So, even when you suggest they attempt better sound through placement and using what they already have in their rooms to get better sound, they are not as receptive as when you suggest they buy a new receiver. If people would read the "dry" stuff in the acoustics threads and articles, they would find ways to get better sound with very little outlay of cash and few problems with their spouse. But most simply won't do it. Just as with selling acoustic treatments usually gets you nowhere until the customer makes the decision on their own, suggesting them on this forum will get you ignored faster than suggesting someone settle for a Bose AcousticWave Machine. To answer your question, of course, I have treated my rooms. They just don't look like I have. . |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 788 Registered: Nov-05 | Even soft, well padded furnishings and a thick wool rug can work wonders in a 'brightish' room. Unfortunately, with the w.a.f. as mentioned, the treatment most people would like is not worth the treatment they'd get. But as Jan stated, the subject of room treatments has been discussed rather thoroughly on this forum. As for your original question Rush, if one was building a true 'listening' room, then the subject becomes as imortant as you describe. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 122 Registered: May-06 | I will join the ranks of having Acoustic Treatments. 5 of my 6 panels are in this shot.  |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 123 Registered: May-06 | I see where you have to click on the link "Jump to this page" to actually see the panels in the pic I uploaded. In addition to the panels, there a rug, a big fat leather sleeper sofa, and a room that opens to other rooms. It didn't have to be like this but the W.A.F. called for the stereo to join the HT system as she did not want to see speakers everywhere she looked. This is my bastardized idea of compromise. The HT speakers are hidden in the entertainment center only to come out if someone insists on listening to the HT system. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9077 Registered: May-04 | . Michael - I think you're wasting some money with the number and placement of your traps. I don't know what your speakers do as far as dispersion, but do you really have a direct signal that far behind the speakers that you need the four wall mounted panels? Consider where the reflection is going if the speaker does put signal energy at that point on the wall. Any driver with that much dispersion is doing it to gain some openess and air to the sound quality. You really should only need to damp the first reflection point facing your listening position. If that doesn't provide sufficient quieting of the signal, then you damp the second reflection point. Your panels might do a better job as damping and dispersion on the back wall behind your listening position. If you pull the speakers forward a bit, there probably isn't going to be a first reflection point from the speaker shown. Please don't take this wrong; but have you done a speaker set up with any particular method in mind? . |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 791 Registered: Nov-05 | and Michael, you can change the record :-) |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 124 Registered: Jul-06 | I found the responses very interesting. Thanks Nuck, My suggestion to you is to keep it simple. You don't need to understand how a light bulb is built to benefit from it's light. Once you hear the difference after fixing your room, you'll slap yourself in the forehead and wonder why you didn't do anything sooner. Yes, the difference will be that big, and it will be immediately obvious. I don't understand why audio enthusiast feel the need to become acoustic engineer experts so that they can treat fix their broken listening rooms. For those interested in good sound, all that needs to be done is take photos of the room along with a budget, and email to one of the many reputable companies who specialize in room treatments. They'll do the work for you, and tell you where they need to be. Don't worry about waterfall charts and all that other nonsense. All you have to do is stick them in place, and marvel at how it improves your sound. Who cares about how they work. Just sit back and enjoy. For those already with reasonable systems, the room upgrade will provide the biggest impact of any single upgrade dollar-per-dollar that you can make. (By a long shot) I'm just trying to do my part to help; because I realize a majority of enthusiasts are completely missing the boat. I understand that a majority of people does nothing because they are overwhelmed by the science of what's happening, but it doesn't need to be that way. Use the KISS approach, and prepare to be amazed. My Rantz, I also understand spousal considerations that exist in every marriage. However, I think if enthusiasts understood the true impact the room has on sound, you'd be surprised how easily the spousal hurdle can be overcome. I don't think most husbands even try. With a little explaining, treatments to a certain extent can be easily incorporated into the decor of any room. I would think that any enthusiast would be highly interested in achieving good sound. And yes, I visited the treatments section, and it appears to be a completely ignored in this forum, which is why I posted the comment here because this is where the action is. If I posted it there, it would be lost with the tumbleweed in a vast desert. Jan, I also understand your points. I believe much of that has to do with the fact that the topic is never discussed, which is why I'm talking about it now because most enthusiasts completely underestimate the importance of the room. I see tons of posts from individuals who already have decent equipment, but they are considering expensive upgrades that will make marginal improvements at best. If they put that same money (or less), into a room upgrade, their system will be greatly improved, which is why I feel this thread can be relevant in any section of the forum because the important role of the room seems to be completely lost. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 125 Registered: Jul-06 | Michael, Way to go!! It looks lie you are well on your way. Good Job! I also have a couple of suggestions that should make an impact. From what I can see in the picture, these are things I would do if that was my room. I would also hang a panel on the wall or in that large space behind your center channel speaker. It should make a noticable impact on dialog clarity. (it will be especially noticable during loud segments in movies when all heck is breaking loose) I would also get a couple 2x4 by 4" thick movable panels that I would place in front of your ET center during movies. Since it looks like the ET center is wedged in pretty tight between the walls, I would place one in each corner IN FRONT of the ET center. Simply set them on the floor and place them diagonally in the corners(think airgap) so they will also be somewhat behind your towers. When the movie is over, I'd pick them up and stick them in a closet. Since the room opens up to the left, it looks like you did what you could there, so nice job. If at all possible, you'll want to try to do what you can with that first reflection on the right sidewall too. That may be difficult, because im guessing you have windows there. If you have a place for 2'x4'x4" corner mounted panels in the back, I would also do that depending on the room depth. For those with wife issues, there is no rule that states panels need to be permantly affixed to the walls to work. With a little creativity, even those with spousal concerns can enjoy good sound too. When you're ready for a little hardcore listening session, simply bring them out, and put them away when you're finished. Since they wont be attached to anything, it will take you all of a few seconds to pick them up, and stow them away after a night of incredible audio enjoyment. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 126 Registered: May-06 | Jan, I actually took a little of a few methods, relying mostly on a Chesky disk for accuracy. 1, I started with having my right speaker up against the Entertainment Center and started moving it out using a Tool CD for bass. Once I found 3 sweet spots I marked all 3 and positioned the speaker on the middle mark. 2. I then pulled the left speaker out equidistant from the wall as was the right speaker and pulled it forward pushed it back until I thought I had a center spot using the Chesky disk. 3. I messed with the distance from the nearest side wall for each speaker to work out my rt / ctr, rt, off stage rt, lt / ctr, lt, off stage lt. This was maddening as the un-refurbished Carver did not image properly (which I did not know throughout this exercise). This also was affected by how clean or lost my soundstage sounded depending on position. 4. I towed in and out both speakers trying to bring sharpness to the center spot. 5. I tilted up and down to try and aim the tweeters at my ears. I actually had to do this multiple times often ending at positions and angles completely unrelated to one another. The multiple panels ended up on the left wall because I did not now that un-refurbished Carver could not image left of center for me and those panels with the speaker position I had resulted in the queen of the pigs in soundstage for me. When I put the swapped in the refurbished Carver and ran the Chesky disk I suddenly had a right off-stage and a left off-stage which was not there before and the lt ctr and lt speaker were distinct and dead on as was ctr, rt ctr, and rt. I think I might have moved the angle of the speakers by less than 5 degrees to redial in a very sharp tall soundstage. Since the results were so on, I did not think I should mess with anything else so the panels stayed on the wall. There are no panels on the right wall as one foot past the front of the speaker it opens up at about 40" high into my Galley kitchen. There is an eat at counter from the floor up to 40". Yes, I put my HT and audio system in the dining room as it opens up to the living room eliminating any issues with rear wall reflections and giving me the most airy space. Oh, yes I also moved my sleeper sofa up and back countless times to where I felt I was the best listening position. This is the most work I ever had to do with optimizing my speaker placement so if I erred in some way I would be none too surprised. Any comments or feedback is certainly wecome. The only panels behind the speaker is the one you see standing up against the left edge of the Entertainment Center (EC) and the wall. It is blocking a 4" gap between the unit and the wall as the top and bottom moldings do of the unit do not allow for me to abut the wall with the unit. The one panel you do not see is doing the same on the right side for the right speaker. The 4 panels mounted to the wall begin about even with the back of the speaker and move forward along the wall to discourage diffusion of the corner. I will consider moving the speakers forward as you suggest, but that means starting all over with step 1 above. I expect it would be much easier with an accurate amp this time around. The only other thing I had to do with the Gallos was to determine whether the bass should fire in or out. I chose out as in seemed to heavy. Moving away from the EC will also require that I reroute the speaker cable from behind the EC to in front of it. I picked up less RF interference with the wires routed behind the EC. I may also have to move the sofa in and back when I am listening as moving it back any further trespasses on the aisle leading from the kitchen area to the bedroom area. It's a virtual aisle but I am sure my wife will not want the couch sticking back that far permanently. Mike |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 127 Registered: May-06 | Rush (and other willing participants) I am going to move the center channel down to a space in front of the base of the TV so I do not know if paneling the wall at the opening behind the shelf will still be of importance. When you say 2x4 by 4" panels I take it you mean 24" X 48" X 4"? My speakers do not have rear firing ports so is this as important? If yes, then while this will certainly take care of the reflectiveness of the wood Entertainment Center, the glass paneled doors extend up to about 60". As I noted to Jan in my previous post I have 2 panels covering the gaps between my EC and wall. They should stay or go? What about the mess with the flat screen plasma and the shelves with all of the components? Should I drape a blanket over the TV during audio only listening sessions? And for any smart alecks out there regarding my audio and "only listening" inference this is meant as opposed to running a DVD's audio or Cable broadcast 2 channel into my pre-amp which I am set up to do (instead of 7.1 surround which my wife had me reduce to 5.1 surround as there were too many speakers but we won't go there) therefore having an audio / visual listening experience. With the exception of the sofa, moving things around should not be a problem as everyone knows not to go anywhere near the stereo system. Even the 2 dogs are trained to stay away.  I look forward to anyone's opinion. |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 60 Registered: Jun-06 | I'm not at home to attach photos, but I mimic'ed the room displayed here: http://www.bobgolds.com/TrapChristianG/home.htm I'm lucky that I have a dedicated rec room for gear. I'm unlucky that it was a sound hole prior to treatment. I'm lucky that my wife gave me the whole room for kit and let me put floor to ceiling corner traps. I'm unlucky that she gets the entire rest of the home (or is that the way it always goes???) Anyway, my bass traps cost me $150 to build and are finished as nicely as the ones in the pics. There is no component in the world that could improve the sound like those traps did. Prior to treatment I was sad that we moved to a new house, and that I'd volunteered to set up in the basement. Post treatment, I heard depth and detail in the bass that I had never heard before, using the same gear I'd owned for 10 years and had used in 6 different apartments/houses. Each of those 6 places had their own unique problems, but I wish I'd known how big a difference I could have made back then. 10 lost years, really. I have lots more to add, for those who want to listen. ...and I'm not an audio engineer. I knew nothing about this thing three months ago. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 795 Registered: Nov-05 | Michael, personally I wouldn't hang a blanket over the TV, tiny fibres and stuff will get in those vents - and also possibly in the other components. |
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Bronze Member Username: Philipt95148Post Number: 20 Registered: Jun-06 | Geoff, Nice bass traps. I read in other forum the use of Corning 703 rigid fiber glass, did you look into those or you did not bother? On the side wall, you have some panels, are they stuffed full of pink insulation too? I am looking into building bass traps but have some problem sourcing 703 locally (didn't want to pay $25 shipping charge) so am wondering if pink insulation would do just as well. All, The problem sometimes is knowing when to stop messing around with components and start building bass traps. By this I mean, how does one know that the issue isn't with system synergy more so than room acoustics. With my system, I first had bass problem, now that I have experimented with speakers placement and the speakers are more broken in, the problem is a little less although I am still not happy with the bass performance, sometimes it's there and goes really deep, like with cello's, and sometimes it's hardly there with some jazz pieces. I now think the high and mid range is too sharp due to the metal material in my speakers. However, this is my first reasonably good system and I am not sure if this is what high end system is really about, more details, more definition, hence a little tiring after a while and with low end system, there is a little more coloration which somehow makes the music a little more exciting? I don't know! There are discussions of using different interconnects to soften the problem but these are $100+ and more a throw and it becomes expensive if one starts buying them and still not solving the problem (contrary to what Jan said) "The fact that a new interconnect is wasted in a worthless room is irrelevant to the typical buyer" I think the dealers are part of the issue. I mean, if one goes to a dealer and explain the problem ,what is easier (and more beneficial) to do, a new component or room acoustics? I don't remember being in a hifi dealership that has room treatments as part of the solution, hifi dealers sell hifi and room acoustics treatment is with acoustics specialists, no? I used to live in Europe and cannot tell you how pleasurable it is to be able to spend a couple hours in a dealership swapping components until you get the sound you want. Here in North America, dealership carries only limited components that they are authorized, so that's all you get. If you want to buy something else, you have to go elsewhere where the choice is different again, so one can never compare apple to apple. Often, one has to buy on specs and put several components together with often undesirable results. Then one needs to spend more to "correct" the issue, whether it be interconnects or "bigger/better" components, and it goes on..... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9083 Registered: May-04 | . MW - You are using traps to kill the reflections to the outside of your speakers. Does this suggest anything you might try to the inside of your speakers? . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 129 Registered: May-06 | MR - Good point on the fibers, I will have to think of something else. I stopped by Audio Concepts today, a high (very high) end shop where I bought my Linn LP12 last week and loosely discussed with them Rush's idea of 2 panels in front of the Entertainment Center. They suggested finding something with stands for easier portability. Jan - I really do not know what to do inside of my speakers unless I pull them up ..... oh ..... as ..... you ..... suggested ..... hmmm. I am starting to get it, I think. Pull speakers up, drop listening area back, redeploy acoustic panels in some manner (experimentation required) between the speakers as the side walls will be the doorway into the bedroom and the opening into the kitchen. Rear deflection has not been an issue (I think) due to the dining room opening into a living room. I still may need larger pieces for the EC but I may be able to accomplish something moving around with what I have. And if all else fails, put everything back the way it is in the picture, play some music, and have a scotch. P.S. With the price of acoustic panels, the larger rectangular ones, I thought I was onto something when my dog messed up our mattress topper, some memory foam thing that weighed a ton. I wanted to cut it up and use it for room treatments, even if I had to cover it with speaker cover cloth and frame them out. My wife gave me one of those looks that said "you're an idiot" as she thought the sheer weight of the foam would make it next to impossible to hang on walls or ceiliings. Anyway, it got tossed.  |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 126 Registered: Jul-06 | Michael, I am talking about 2'x4'x4"thick. Yes, I would put one panel each IN FRONT of your ECenter and place them in the corners behind your towers. When the movie ends, I'd stow them away. I'd also keep your center speaker where it above your screen, and hang a panel directly in the space shown behind and above the speaker. Placing those three panels alone will make a significant difference. You just wait and see This is how my front is arranged to give you a reference. Pretty simple stuff really. One in each corner, and one on the front wall. I'll probably move the center panel over and add another because my front wall could use a little more.  This is how my subwoofer corner is situated. I have two panels acting as bass traps in my sub corner. One is laying on the floor along the wall, and the other you can see hanging in the corner. You can also glimpse one of the two GIK 244s that I have haning on the right sidewall. At least from these two photos, you can see how I have some of my treatments situated. In all, I currently have 10, and I plan to add a couple more in the future. Every one of mine are of the 4" thick variety.  |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 127 Registered: Jul-06 | There is no component in the world that could improve the sound like those traps did. Prior to treatment I was sad that we moved to a new house, and that I'd volunteered to set up in the basement. Post treatment, I heard depth and detail in the bass that I had never heard before, using the same gear I'd owned for 10 years and had used in 6 different apartments/houses. Each of those 6 places had their own unique problems, but I wish I'd known how big a difference I could have made back then. 10 lost years, really. --------------------- Geoff, I couldnt have said it better myself. If people really knew and could comprehend how much better their soundsystem will perform in a finely tuned room, they'd be lining up for miles to fix their broken rooms. Fixing my room made the single largest impact of any single upgrade I have ever made. Since I'm lazy and not into the DIY scene, I bought mine from GIK because I didnt want to build my own. All I did was hang them up. LOL In all, the 10 panels cost less than $800, and it was the best $800 I have ever spent by a long shot. And that's a fact! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1835 Registered: Feb-04 | Interesting room: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/7/159469/music%20room.jpg People who have heard it say it's incredible. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1836 Registered: Feb-04 | Opps. That's actually an old version of Artto's room. Here's a 2002 update: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/7/159471/music%20room_now.jpg http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/7/159472/roomcorner3.jpg http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/7/159473/deflector_detail1.jpg There's a very long thread about it in the Klipsch forums. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 131 Registered: May-06 | PG - Interesting twist on things, or perhaps more of a curve than a twist. I suspect that with the imaging problems of the unrefurbished Carver the panels on the left wall helped some. I also suspect that I put too much emphasis on the results I got using the David Chesky CD. When I removed the panels and before I placed them where they are now, I did a Chesky CD for listening and nothing changed between the panels being on the left wall and no panels being on the wall. OK, since I ripped the Acoustic Tiles from the left wall (just kidding they were only tacked up) and after the above test I placed the 6" wide panels in each corner behind the speaker, and the four 4" panels were paired up 2 each in front of each ECenter door covering the middle fo the glass all the way up. Then I moved the speakers up about 15" & 18" L & R. Dialed in the base. To find the correct center rt ctr, rt, off stage rt, lt ctr, lt, off stage lt, in placement testing I had to move them about 10" further apart. Finally I toed them about 3 degrees on the left and 6 degrees on the right for a sharper soundstage. I left the black tape on the floor where the speakers had stood before all of this rearrangement of everything. I used the Tool CD again to verify bass placement and the David Chesky CD for all other tests. All but the last listening tests are done on CD as the Apollo is still my most familiar point of reference. The first reference was Madeleine Peyroux. The drummer moved from lt ctr to ctr???? The brushes were more evident, almost thicker in a sense. My initial impression was a tighter image. Second reference Diana Krall, somebody moved her percussionist from lt ctr to ctr too??? I get the impression that she had her piano tuned since the last time I heard her, and now she is behind it instead of sitting on top of it as I used to hear her. The bass is back a bit too. Why do I think that there is voodoo or something involved here? Move these cloth and cardboard rectangles around and you can re-arrange the band you listen to???? Dead Can Dance -- Into the Labyrinth first 4 cuts were next. With the 1st two I noticed the left and right edges of the soundstage were more prominent more forward. The 3rd cut, a solo female vocalist it became exceedingly clear that things really were tighter and quieter. Led Zeppelin IV -- When the Levee Breaks, Page still isn't whispering in my ear, in fact he moved from lt stage to just off ctr to the lt and the truth being it is Plant not Page doing the vocals. Someone also moved Bonhams cymbals from the lt of ctr to the rt of ctr since I last hear this song. Pink Floyd -- Animals, another element became apparent. This phenomenon occurred once before to me, before I got into 2 channel with any conviction. I had a simple 5.1 HT at my old house and I added a Chang Lightspeed Line conditioner to it. Suddenly all the space between the left and center channel and between the center channel and right speakers disappeared. It became one unified soundstage. I get the sense of that now too. Perhaps the amp is warming up and I am getting to full potential on my systerm. Last demo, Dire Straits -- Brothers In Arms, Money for Nothing. Now my system's really full tilt. The percussion is flowing from far left to far right, everything is fitting in its place. However the differences are more subtle with the Linn LP12 than with the Rega Apollo. Summary, "seemingly" (I use that word as it is difficult for me to logically wrap around these changes) tighter better defined soundstage with much improved depth perception and clearly stronger edges. Fluidness from left to right that was missing. Fluidness was one of those things I didn't know wasn't there until it showed up so I didn't know it was missing before. Go ahead and read that last sentence again, it will make sense the second time. I probably still have some of this wrong or maybe need to do more yet, but it is still Voodoo to me.  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9085 Registered: May-04 | . The problem remains the rather large obsruction sitting between your speakers. From what you said earlier, there was litle need for the side wall panels as they probably weren't tamimg any reflections which managed to make their way to your ears with any significant intensity. Did you just guess at their placement initially or did you actually use something to determine where the first reflection point happens? A mirror perhaps? Treating the front wall with large® traps in the corners and smaller traps along the wall is common procedure. In this method of room treatment the traps wall traps are typically placed toward the center of the wall but that is a starting point only. Experimentation and a keen ear give the best results. Depending on the bass extension of your system, a 16" trap filling the front corners is not excessive. However, the large reflective surfaces sitting between the speakers would be my most important focus of attention. If you are hearing better sound when you treat the wall behind the speakers, imagine what you can hear when you virtually eliminate the "stuff" between the speakers. A clean stereo image relies upon all signals reaching your ears with a degree of symmetry. If signal reflections cause the signals common to both speakers, which create the center image, to be diffused and scattered about the room, you can still improve further what you are hearing. It looks as if you have glass doors on your wall unit. If that's the case, you probably require some dampening panels to calm the reflections from that area. Keep in mind, wall units are not necessarily bad things. If they are fairly open and stuffed with irregularly shaped objects or semi-soft surfaces (books/magazines/LP's) placed to form other than a solid wall, you can use "natural" objects to treat a corner or wall. The attempt at that point is to work with diffusuion rather than absorption. The majority of what you do to a room will involve either direct absorption, controlled reflection or scattered diffusion. Beyond those three methods you get into Hemholtz resonators and so forth, which are typically beyond the home builder's knowledge and skills. Try placing traps just on the inside corners of your speakers. Your efforts should be to create a wide, soft baffle between the two speakers beginning at the inside edge of each speaker cabinet. Play around with the number and placement required to minimize the effects of the center obstructions. Also, from the picture's perspective, it would appear your front speakers are not an equal distance from a central listening or photo-taking position. The right hand speaker looks to be more forward than the left hand speaker. Is this true or just due to the lighting in the picture? . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1838 Registered: Feb-04 | If I might ask... What's is in the large wall unit? And is any of it still accessible with panels in front of it? The HDTV seems to be in front of it (now too big to fit in), with the audio gear on shelves beneath it. You could try removing it altogether... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9086 Registered: May-04 | . You do not want to place audio equipment in such a cabinet. Most especially a Linn turntable. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 133 Registered: May-06 | Jan / PG, Working on reply. More this afternoon. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Philipt95148Post Number: 21 Registered: Jun-06 | hmm....let me ask the question again.... "All, The problem sometimes is knowing when to stop messing around with components and start building bass traps. By this I mean, how does one know that the issue isn't with system synergy more so than room acoustics" ie: If your system is bright, how does a bass trap solve it? or put it another way.... Is bass trap a solution to all your problems? or have I touched a nerve with my comment about dealership? |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 128 Registered: Jul-06 | Bass traps wont solve all of your problems, but every room without them most definitely will have acoustic issues. To achieve good sound, the room itself and positioning both need to be accounted for. |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 129 Registered: Jul-06 | PS. Sorry, I didnt address your question. In my experience, all untreated rooms are bright & harsh and muddy sounding regardless of whether or not the speakers in question are allegedly described as warm or bright. When you hear how your system is supposed to sound, it will be an epiphany. my 2 cents |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 134 Registered: May-06 | Jan and PG, I appreciate both of you taking the time to offer assistance. The audio / video stand between my speakers supports the HDTV. Before the TV and the stand I had my audio equipment on the floor sitting on Black Diamond pucks/cones combinations, and below that were shelves from my audiophile equipment stand. Prior to my getting my tube pre-amp all my gear was inside the left tower of the Entertainment Center (EC). I had the gear on the stand at one time by W.A.F. wanted anything with speakers attached centrally located. Jan, none of my audio gear will be going back into the cabinet. The reason I have the HDTV and stand in front of the EC is that I am afraid of the EC's lower shelf falling on it either during replacement once I moved the TV back there or just on its own at a time of its choosing. It has fallen before with the slightest of contact. Since goal #1 here is optimal sound quality I will set out about the following; Remove the lower shelf from the EC. Perhaps at a later time I could drill holes up higher in the side towers and use screws to attach the clips to both towers and under the shelf. Move the Side towers about ½" each towards the wall and empty the audio stand (I have purchased a bottle of Pro Gold and have not used it yet due to the time required to disconnect and reconnect all of my RCAs and spades. This would give me the opportunity to take care of this now too.). Next move the stand further back into the EC between the towers. I will have to figure out what to do with my Monster AVS 2000 Voltage Regulator as it currently is positioned behind the stand near the back wall. There is a rack attached to the stand which I could hang my HDTV on thus providing me an additional shelf for spacing out my gear. That may provide me options as to a new set up. I had not used the rack before as my initial intent was to move the audio stand back under the bottom shelf and the rack made the HDTV too high, but I chickened out due to my fear of falling shelves. If I am successful at this, why I wouldn't be I don't know, but there appears to be a lot I don't know so anything is possible, I could perhaps use a quilt or something until I am able to purchase additional sound treatments, to hang from the center top shelf of the EC and let it drape down just low enough to block the TV leaving me access to my audio gear. The quilt would be hanging in front of the audio stand so any fibers that may shed should not land on / in the equipment. PG - As to the panels in front of the cabinet doors, they are just leaning there so it does not restrict access to anything I need in there. The shelves in the right side house all of my video gear, AVR, DVD, Cable box, Panamax, etc. The open shelf on the top is reserved for my TT should I have to move it off of the floor. The patio block and granite slab slide under the audio stand. The left tower used to house my audio gear, but now is home to CD / DVD treatments, reference CDs, Cans, and small connectors, extra cables, wires, manuals and stuff. Jan, the original placement of the panels was visually accomplished and at the closest point to where I had wall space and there could be a reflection. Not knowing the un-refurbished Carver could not image correctly I did numerous adaptations to the placements of the panels, including having 2 run horizontally on the right wall from the front edge of the right speaker along the wall under the counter top on the right wall. I also had the left wall corner covered with one panel on the edge of the wall facing me abutted to another panel on the corner of the wall facing the speakers. Grouping them on the left wall gave me the best results with the imaging I was getting from the amp. I have an inane ability to sight lines, probably from my Drafting classes in H.S. and hustling pool in a previous lifetime, so I do not use mirrors. (But I still use levels.) Do you think quarter round bass traps would work better in the corners or stick with your suggestion of 16" panels angled in towards the speakers? Either answer would free up the two 6" panels which I could then have for redeployment elsewhere, but where? I am aware that I am asking for a lot of help here. Does anybody ever use plants for sound treatment? I am thinking like large potted cactus, draping spider plants, ficus trees, or palms. Think of how far the W.A.F would go up! It may not be as effective but it would be cheaper than this option; Jan, two more quick hitters, the right speaker is placed at its position for optimal bass, the left speaker is back from it for center stage alignment. I looked into Helmholtz resonators and found this; http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roomlens/roomlens.html |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9087 Registered: May-04 | . Plants and so forth offer visual appeal to a well treated room but do not themselves make for a well treated room. No ficus tree can deal with a 30' high wave front. No cactus can tame a 1/200" wave front. "If your system is bright, how does a bass trap solve it?" It doesn't. Traps are effective up into the highest frequencies, but their dimensions and palcement usually negate most benefits from a bass trap above the lower mid frequencies. For higher frequencies, you use acoustic panels and place them where they will do the most good. How effective your bass traps will be at taming a too bright room depends on their construction, numbers and placement. Despite using the same methods to achieve a balanced room, low, mid and high frequencies are dealt with by the specific nature of the signal and its pressure wave front. In other words, a 20' peak to peak pressure wave does not require nor benefit from the same treatment that would be appropriate for a 1/2" pressure wave. "Bass traps" are so called due to their ability to affect long wave lengths. They do this by their physical dimensions. From front to back, the pressure wave passes through 12, 16, 24 or more inches of damping material. In a sucessful set up, the signal does this at least twice. The first time as the original signal generated by the speakers and secondly as the reflected signal bounced off the surface behind the trap. The signal's energy is converted to heat inside the trap and the signal strength is diminished before it re-enters the room. Since low bass signals are omni-directional, no matter where you place your speakers, the major problems areas of any room remain the same when you discuss treating the room for bass irregularities. Any intersection of flat surfaces creates a "bass build up". The higher the number of intersecting surfaces, the greater the problem. Therefore, two surfaces (floor and wall) which intersect will have some problems. Three surfaces (floor/ceiling, and two walls) which intersect will have far greater problems. Parallel surfaces have more problems than slightly irregularly dimensioned surfaces. Despite what would appear as illogical, curved surfaces have more problems than flat surfaces. Vaulted and barrel ceilings almost always sound terrible. Corners, floor to ceiling, are the first areas to treat when trying to smooth bass response. If you can't treat the entire corner floor to ceiling, then at least deal with the points where three surfaces collide. Then you move to the largest, flattest surfaces within the room. By using bass traps you are trying to sonically make the walls and corners non-existent. Therefore the effect is of allowing the speaker to see as close to an open space, or at least, as close to a non-reverberant space, as possible. Traps placed between the speakers will minimize the cross talk you hear from the opposite side speaker. Done correctly this will give a slightly smaller sweet spot but should increase the spatial effects of the system. Done very well with the right speakers, the amount of left/right information which arrives at your ears is quite pronounced and the speakers and walls tend to disappear and open up almost as if you were using giant headphones. Mid and high frequency problems are dealt with not by "traps" but by dampening panels. Or, by reflective panels, or, by using diffusion panels; depending on what the room and system dictate. There are few consumer oriented rooms which require more reflections when it come to bass response. So we seldom discuss reflective properties when talking about bass treatments. Diffusing a 20-30' pressure wave takes far too much space and is the sort of treatment typically reserved for performance halls and large, confined spaces such as auditoriums. However, depending on the room and the speakers, reflective and diffusion properties are ideal for mid to high frequency control in a listening room. You are trying to control the amount of reflected energy which mixes with the direct energy from your speakers. The reflected energy arrives out of synch timewise and often with comb filtering effects from the direct signal. Too much reflected energy makes the system appear bright, muddy and harsh. The result is listener fatigue. Many bass traps actually have two sides; one which is open and the other which is reflective. Proper orientation will allow some or no amount of reflection to occur even when a 24" bass trap is used in the rear corners or along the side walls. Setting up a room for monopole, dynamic speakers is quite a different procedure than setting up for dipole/bipole panel speakers. Both set ups utilize the same type of control methods. But, the various types of speakers get their characteristic sound be relying on different amounts of direct and reflected sound and where the reflections occur with the different type of speakers is not similar. Absorptive panels for the high frequencies work best when located at the precise reflection points of the offending frequencies. There are several ways to find where these points exist in a room but the most common involves a mirror and a friend. Placing the largest surface area at these points will bring down the level of the signal's pressure wave. Mounting the panels several inches away from the wall to force the reflected energy to pass through the material a second time makes more improvement in dampening ability than simply increasing the thickness or surface area of the panel itself. In effect you are doing both when you mount the panel away from the wall. An acoustic dampening panel is purposely constructed to "trap" the pressure wave inside the material. The panels are constructed of open cell foam which increases in density as the signal moves from the front to the back of the material. Foam rubber matress pads and other consumer oriented materials are typically the same structure throughout the material and are, therefore, less effective for the same amount of surface area and thickness. Fiberglass and other damping materials can certainly be used to tame a room's problems, but due to their more even construction and smaller relative surface area, these alternatives seldom if ever give the same results as purpose built acoustic panels. The cost of fiberglass or sponge foam is drastically less than purpose built panels, so, which you pick is a matter of finances and what the room will bear along with what it requires to sound best. When faced with a problem such as a listening position which must be too close to the rear wall, diffusion almost always works better than absorption. Installing a diffusion panel behind the listening position will typically solve the muddiness and glare associated with this type of room problem. While room treatments come in all sorts of sizes, shapes and colors, you must remember that most materials are simply too frequency selective to be useful at mid to high frequencies. If the weave of a material is too closed to allow midrange frequencies to pass through, the only option for the material is to reflect those frequencies back into the room. Other than lots of surface area, there is very little that calms a room's bass problems down other than purpose built devices. You can begin to experiment with room treatments on the cheap however. Corrugated matress pads or fiberglass panels can give you an idea of how reflective your room is or can be. Any hard surface can add reflections in a room, though too "soft" is typically not a problem most modern, mid-priced homes have. There are instances, however, where some life might be needed in some overly damped rooms due to too many soft surfaces already in existence. Controlling the reflections to keep them away from an area is as important as dampening them in other areas. The floor and the ceiling typically represent the largest expanses of flat, reflective surfaces in any room. These are also the most often neglected areas of any treated room. A double thick carpet pad under your rug will make more difference to bass quality than an equal amount of money spent on corner traps. Treating the first reflection points off the ceiling is often the most overlooked treatment which most rooms require. To experiment with cheap bass traps, you can bring home some large, empty boxes and a few Sunday newspapers. Loosely crumple the papers into the boxes and begin stacking them in the corners of the room and along the front wall. Get the stacks as high as possible and listen for an improvement. If the bass smooths out, you could use some real bass traps in your room. Diffusion is as simple as a bookcase full of books, magazines and LP's which are placed at various depths to allow the high frequencies to bounce randomly around the room. Place the bookcase at an angle in the corner of your room and you diffuse some of the bass energy which accumulates in those areas simply by breaking up the intersecting surfaces. No room is built to have good sound unless it was designed into the room from the start. Even then once you begin to live in that room, most domestic settings disrupt the acoustics of the room. The major problem in most domestic settings is an overabundance of small, reflective surfaces. Depending on your system, your room and your taste, there probably isn't a room you will encounter which couldn't benefit from some room treatments. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9088 Registered: May-04 | . MW - In my experience, the best sounding systems which I've heard rely on as much symmetry as possible. The second thing which benefits almost any system is having the reflective surfaces either to the side, behind, between, above or below the speakers being as far away from the speakers as possible. Finally, irregularity of the surfaces benefits almost any system. There are givesaa and takes to each of these ideas, but for the most part they work to the benefit of most systems. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Philipt95148Post Number: 22 Registered: Jun-06 | Rush, Thanks for the answer. "In my experience, all untreated rooms are bright & harsh and muddy sounding regardless of whether or not the speakers in question are allegedly described as warm or bright. When you hear how your system is supposed to sound, it will be an epiphany". I have another question. In Geoff's case or the room he mimic'ed, the trap goes floor to ceiling. In your room, it is 2x4 with bottom and top opened. I have seen other professionally treated room with 2x4 like yours but with the corner ceiling trapped with a triangle shape bass trap. Do you know why there are these differences and would there be any differences in the sonic result? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9091 Registered: May-04 | . PT - Traps typically come in fixed lengths. Four foot or so is a common length. If you have a nine foot ceiling, you either buy custom traps at a higher cost or you make do with a pair of four foot traps stacked together and then make up the difference the best way possible. Will it make a difference. The only way to effectively damp long, low frequency wave fronts with a passive technique is by using lots of material. A small corner "pillow" knocks the edge off the corner problem about like a cup of coffee helps a hangover. There is no substitute for material depth when dealing with bass traps, assuming you've got the placement right. If you notice how the corner pillows are placed, they also rely on the wavefront passing through the material twice. So there is some benefit, just not the same as a well designed, custom installation. However, in domestic settings the corner pillows are more acceptable than stacks of 24" traps floor to ceiling. This alone makes them a viable option. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4034 Registered: Dec-04 | Did I miss somewhere how the Gallo's are side firing as well? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 139 Registered: May-06 | The Gallo's have side firing woofers. It is up to the listener, presuming the that is who's rig it is, to decide whether they provide the best bass facing one another or facing away towards the wall. |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 61 Registered: Jun-06 | Unwanted reverberations, bass or otherwise, can come off of any wall or corner. It has been found that these 'destructive' bass reverberations are worst in corners, or at least that is the most efficient place to focus efforts. Remember that corners are not only found where walls meet. Floor at wall, wall at ceiling are also corners that can be just as problematic. Most people are not willing to loose 20" of floor space all around the room so the floorboard corner goes untreated. In Michael's pic, one solution that MIGHT help is to treat the ceiling corner above and behind the EC. Done with a very simple, matching fabric, might appease the wife too. (I'm not an expert - the mods to my room were fairly unsophisticated because my room was a standard rectangle, and therefore the worst for sound, thus where crude solutions work very well) I posted this before, but take an hour and read this link. Time really well spent: http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9093 Registered: May-04 | . Just for information's sake, rectangular rooms are seldom the most problematic. Sqaure and round rooms have far more problems. Rooms with vaulted or barrel ceilings create terrible problems and "L" or "T" shaped rooms have their own unique issues. The issue with any straight sided room is the dimensions. When any two or more dimensions can be divided by a common number, the chances of more pronounced room resonances and peaks increases. Issues of slap echo and reverberation throughout the mid and high frequencies become more pronounced, though many of the most troublesome problems exist within the lowest few octaves. If the room is 12 X 15 X 9, you can divide each of those dimensions by 3. That will be a less than ideal room to begin with. While a change to a room with just slightly different dimensions of 12.5 X 16 X 9 would make a significant difference in sound quality, the best room would be based upon dimensions which exist even further from a common demoninator. When building a room from scrath, the best roms begin with dimensions similar to the Golden Ratio. (http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=golden%20ratio) Taking those dimensions as your starting point and flaring one or more dimensions to have a larger room at one end will further diminish room problems. If you look at most modern symphony halls, you'll see a flared room. The justifications for this sort of design are based upon several goals, but they begin with the logic most acouticians would rather work with a better sounding room than patch a less than ideal space. While it is possible to get a less than perfect room to sound very good, there is far more work involved and far more expense. As I stated, room treatments attempt to "fool" the room into reacting as if its dimensions are not what they are. They do this in the shorter wavelengths (mid and high frequencies) by attempting to control the path of reflections for the sound source. A rectangular room with less that perfect dimensions doesn't have to rely only upon absorption to control and diminish first or second reflections. Once the speaker position has been relatively fixed a hard, reflective surface can be used to bounce the signal away from the listener's ears rather than allowing the bounce to proceed toward the listening position. This becomes a combination where reflections and diffusion are mixed to achieve a good result. There is a site on the web which illustrates a speaker set up with the listening position across the diagonal of the room. The idea is simply to increase the space between reflective surfaces and therefore diminish the signal strength by way of distance travelled. Each doubling of the distance travelled reduces level by another 6dB. It is a truly passive approach in that the intial set up relies upon no absorption, diffusion or reflections other than those long(er) reflective paths already within the room. Passive systems have increased in effectiveness over the years with computers more able to predict exact problems and solutions. It has come to the point recently, however, where relying solely upon passive systems will not get a flat response in the lowest three or four octaves. (Not that it ever did in reality.) For that an active device would be required. Fortunately those devices are coming down in price and going up in their effectiveness. . |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 62 Registered: Jun-06 | Jan didn't say it explicitly, but rooms with two sets of parallel walls, at 90 degree corners, with parallel floors and ceilings are the worst (a rectangle, in three dimensions). A square is a rectangle, granted worse rectangle than a room with odd dimensions. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 140 Registered: May-06 | Geoff, Thanks for you input. I just ordered from one of the dealers in Dallas a set of 4 ACS corner traps. They only come 4 to a set. I will take the time this weekend to read the link you provided. I glanced at it momentarily and it appears most informative. Jan, Since I have not yet found the house I hope to move into by year end this information if very timely. I have a thought for if someone already had a listening room and wanted to consider having it flared. It would be easier to narrow the equipment end of the listening room than flare out the opposite end due to the surrounding structure of the house. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9094 Registered: May-04 | . Geoff - I'll leave it to the mathmeticians to decide where truth lies here, but I believe a square and a rectangle are described by different means. Both a square and a rectangle are parallelograms and I believe both are quadilaterals, which places them in the same broad category. But a square is not, to my knowledge, a rectangle and vice versa. This simplistic view, however, only describes a two dimensional representation of space. The room, of course, has three dimensions so other problems could and probably would arise. For those of you who don't have your high school math books handy; http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=parallelogram&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&ei=UTF-8&ei=UTF-8 &SpellState=n-2930402291_q-JzgPPwtZtoRJTu%2FryN7.TgABAA%40%40 Since the ability have a common demoninator for two or more dimensions increases the potential problems in a room, I would take a rectangular floor plan over a square plan anytime, within reasonable limts, of course. There is no way to make a squared room conform to the Golden Ratio. It remains, to say the least, the "gold" standard for room dimensions when dealing with acoustics. . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1853 Registered: Feb-04 | How pedantic are we going to get here anyway? But a square is not, to my knowledge, a rectangle and vice versa. As Geoff inferred, a square belongs in the rectangle family. A square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares. This bit of trivia doesn't change anything of course. A square rectangle is still the worse rectangle for standing waves. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9098 Registered: May-04 | . So vice is wrong but versa is correct. That will be a blow to anyone who enjoys an occasional buit of vice. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 141 Registered: May-06 | The good news is that while some have to work in a cube, but no one should ever have their audio room in a cube for . Sorry, another one of those where I just couldn't stop myself. ;>) |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 157 Registered: May-06 | OK, back is screaming bl**dy murder, fingers are all chopped up, and the cable is not working on the plasma, but we have the mess sent to the back or the room where it belongs. The room looks better, especially when I remove all but 2 of the acoustic panels for WAF. All the stuff is now shoved back under / between the Entertainment Center (EC). I added 3 more Acoustic tiles. In this shot there is one each hung on the edge of the wall outside of each speaker and the square tile which deflects a portion of the sound hitting the HDTV. Other changes were the two 8" Acoustic tiles are in off of the corners and in front of the EC's glass door panels along with two 6" tiles. The remaining two 6" tiles are facing one another in the EC opening for the HDTV and stand. They are placed at the edge of each tower. The Monster AVS 2000 is now on the floor to the right (as you view it) of the turntable. It had occupied the space where the TV stand now resides. It may end up in one of the cabinets if I can verify that it can be in an enclosed cabinet. My initial thoughts are it cannot which is why it is where it is now. The speakers had to be repositioned. I switched them left and right so that the woofers now face each other. The left speaker is now even with the right speaker. The toe in has been reduced to 2 degrees for the left and about 5 degrees for the right speaker. Bass is phenomenal, except when I sit by my deks 6 feet behind the listening area. I have gotten up and answered the door twice already today. Part from the solid bass, part from my guilty expectations of unhappy neighbors. Sade was luxurious on the Linn and Billy Squire absolutely rocks, especially at Nuck listening levels. I have corner traps on order and that will be it. For set up I used the usual, Tool -- 10,000 days to set up the bass, David Chesky for imaging correctness, and Dead Can Dance -- Into the Labryinth -- 3rd track "Wind That Shakes the Barley" to get a perfect center. I just purchased a First Impression Music CD "Super Sound" and have played it up and down. I will set this on the Reference Music Quality Music thread. This CD, played in its entirety is the only thing anyone needs to ID any weaknesses in their system and set-up. It is also the perfect CD to showing off all of your hard work at putting together you kit. Off to audio nirvana once again. Ignorance is bliss!  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4146 Registered: Dec-04 | And I must say, Mike, the look is soooo much better! Well done! |
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