Archive through August 05, 2006
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4396 Registered: Dec-03 | It's bit big, Rick. I should have left in the shoreline for scale. Perhaps it a diving platform or pontoon for mooring small boats. Perhaps it is "art".... I realize we are not quite on topic. I plead biding time until we can discuss the significant names in HiFi in the last 50 yrs. Come on, MR, what the ____ is it....?  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8832 Registered: May-04 | . Possibly an Aussie whose head got so full of hot air he floated off into space? . |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 662 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay - I believe it's a pontoon floating within a swimming enclosure. It's on the Southport broadwater which is protected from the Pacific to the east by a narrow isthmus called The Spit, which houses Seaworld, luxury resorts, and eating, drinking and shopping venues. I don't know whether the pontoon was built with Google Earth in mind or just something to keep the guys in the space station amused. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4398 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, MR! It's probably designed like that for the entertainment of air passengers. It could be a decoy for sharks, but I suppose they don't get into the enclosure. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3343 Registered: Dec-04 | It is, in fact,a politician. Someone told him fish could vote, and he's playing up to the underserviced tuna vote. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 664 Registered: Nov-05 | Well Nuck, if he's a politician he showing the fish his best side. Then, you could be right - it seems to do about as much as our pollies here! |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 665 Registered: Nov-05 | "It could be a decoy for sharks, but I suppose they don't get into the enclosure." Don't you believe it John, the sharks get in everywhere here on the Gold Coast. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3346 Registered: Dec-04 | But wouldn't nibble the flesh of a politician...even sharks have a bit of taste. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4403 Registered: Dec-03 | Shine on You Crazy Diamond. R.I.P. Syd Barrett, 1946-2006. It's been a bad week for musicians. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3447 Registered: Feb-05 | "Wish you were here". |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 667 Registered: Nov-05 | Being a virtual recluse and a victim of diabetes, it seems Barret did little shining in his life. It's a nasty insidious disease and can get you when you're not looking. 60 is way too young to leave this place. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3448 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm diabetic so I feel you. It sucks. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 668 Registered: Nov-05 | It does Art. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3348 Registered: Dec-04 | Although listed as side effects of Diabetes, ya gotta figgur the acid and all the speed probably, maybe didn't help. Possibly. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 669 Registered: Nov-05 | Or did help. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4405 Registered: Dec-03 | I thought it was a cause. He'd turn up to gigs and recording sessions and just stand there and play one note, totally out of it. I read the others all tried everything they could to help, but he was in self-destruct mode, and became a liability. That's all from an obit I read; have no other source. I can just remember the hit "See Emily Play". |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3449 Registered: Feb-05 | On a more cheerful note there is a nice write up about the ProAc Studio 110's over in Speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 600 Registered: Mar-04 | I've read that Syd had some form of pre-existing mental problems made worse, but not caused, by his acid experimentation. Shine On You Crazy Diamond Remember when you were young, you shone like the sun. Shine on you crazy diamond. Now there's a look in your eyes, like black holes in the sky. Shine on you crazy diamond. You were caught on the crossfire of childhood and stardom, blown on the steel breeze. Come on you target for faraway laughter, come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine! You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon. Shine on you crazy diamond. Threatened by shadows at night, and exposed in the light. Shine on you crazy diamond. Well you wore out your welcome with random precision, rode on the steel breeze. Come on you raver, you seer of visions, come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine! |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 671 Registered: Nov-05 | When the next World Cup comes around, don't invite a few friends to come over and watch it on your new big screen TV. http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=8783 |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3380 Registered: Dec-04 | And now for something completely different... The multi channel gear is headed out the door, in comes the stereo gear. I have pondered and plodded so long as to tire the esteemed group here into nuck complacency. No more. The complete Classe setup will be here in 2 weeks or so, I will post in Amps when it is up and running. The kit may not be as satisfying as Jan found so many years go, or as fine as John A. finds his, film at 11. Does this mean I shant post here anymore?(sad smiley here). |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 672 Registered: Nov-05 | Nuck, get out and stay out  Seriously, as much as I'm enjoying stereo through our NAD 162/272/542 and 602's, I wouldn't part with our Denon 2900 and Marantz receiver (which drives our center, and rears) to complete our set up for hi-res multi-channel music of which our library is now well over 100 titles. This is apart for surround HT which is not as important though admittedly a great bonus. So I get maybe not the very best of both worlds, but pretty darn good nevertheless. I wish you well in your quest for excellence in stereo and wish also for the dough it will cost for a complete Classe set up. It's a Classe act Nuck, I really hope it's worth it for you. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3385 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, MR. My postings over in amps outline the system that cost 13k 4 years ago, I got for 4300. woo hoo. I don't want to be ostricised as an infidel. My dvd plays 2.1 pretty well. Rush R30 in today. 2 weeks for delivery on the new stuff. Mrs. Nuck said little, just one eyebrow up at the cost. Wait till the speakers come along! I love music! As well, I called the Classe factory today and got a fine chap on the line, willing to support me and the gear 100%. I didn't know that B&W had bought Classe and Rotel last year, but it seems to be one big happy family so far. Th fellow wants me to send a room layout to him for an informal set-up, as he is in his third term as sound engineer, he asked for it! He is familiar with my present speakers and will make a project of it! Very nice, indeed. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 674 Registered: Nov-05 | Saw that and as for the guy at Classe, wll you can't ask for better than that. Well done. Infidels for infidelity! You're lucky Mrs Nuck didn't raise two eyebrows - that can really cause a wrinkle :-) |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4407 Registered: Dec-03 | Excellent, Nuck. Canadian, too. All I know is that Classé has a formidable reputation and is too expensive for me. Top-range stuff from 4 yrs ago is not displaced by anything. Consider it nicely run in. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3390 Registered: Dec-04 | My thoghts exactly, gents, and I thank you. Mrs. Nuck raised one, but quickly decided not to say a word. My wife(Helen) works her buns off, then does the same at home, I buy materials and hire machines when necessary. All is well so far. Ravi prompted me to go for Canadian products, as he holds some in high regard, and scolded me for not buying the best national products available. On his words I found what should be a very flexible and capable setup to last near forever, so thanks to Rav! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3438 Registered: Dec-04 | So sad to see many of the legends of our time passing away. Now Mickey Spillane...when will it end? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8867 Registered: May-04 | . I bet Spilane and Darin McGavin have a lot to discuss. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1398 Registered: Dec-03 | It doesn't have to be sad Nuck. It's the admission one has to pay for life. Endings are only beginnings backwards. It's the journey that really matters. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3441 Registered: Dec-04 | Rick, I'm not sure if I should laugh, cry, bow in mock supplication or kneel looking East. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1399 Registered: Dec-03 | You will figure that out in due time grasshopper. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3444 Registered: Dec-04 | Hai! |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 606 Registered: Mar-04 | Look out FL, here I come. Hide the women, children, and selected barnyard animals!! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4417 Registered: Dec-03 | What's this, Sem, a holday or another migrant....? What is it about Florida. Everyone seems to be moving there. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1400 Registered: Dec-03 | Talk to me Sem, what's the plan? As far as the women and barnyard animals go, I haven't seen any since I moved here. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4420 Registered: Dec-03 | Always interested in people's opinions on the meaning of life etc., I was inclined to write off Florida on the basis of the license plate "Life's a beach". "Famous potatos" was more to my liking but I've never been to Idaho, either. I second Rick. More info, please, Sem. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3448 Registered: Dec-04 | It may not be the meaning of life, but it is Winston Churchill. Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you, for me, give me a pig. A pig looks you straight in the eye and treats you like an equal. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4424 Registered: Dec-03 | Latest recording from St Petersburg:- Yo, Blair... You leaving already? No We gotta get 'em to tell record companies to stop doing this sh*t. Well I can go there before Condi, not to do anything of course, just talk about this digital thingy. Gee that's a nice sweater, thanks - of course you chose it yourself. Of course We need to get Honey to get Kofi to do something. Yeah, way I see it is surround is way to go Hey is this thing on...? [taps microphone]. Sem...? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4433 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry about that. Right, I have the July Stereophile. It is going to put all except total masochists off Quad ESL 57s. Pasted from Speakers > New Quad ESL models Sam Tellig is not writing a review so much as a eulogy. Quite right. I doubt that Peter James Walker made a prototype 989 but everything else I endorse. His dates are 1916-2003, not as stated there. Stereophile Peter J. Walker 1916--2003 By John Atkinson And, in reply to Nuck: Yet he only comes thirteenth in the HiFi News "Hall of Fame" |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3514 Registered: Dec-04 | Funny stuff, John. Hey even the rich and powerful drop the f-bomb once in awhile. (see Cheney). Blair is not immune(though quick enough to check the mikes), he may own ESL 57's. I cannot or have not found the issue, who, for goodness sakes is 1-5? Whom, I suppose is more proper. If it is Bose, I may immolate. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4438 Registered: Dec-03 | Nuck, thanks. I must apologise for leading off topic and into a potantially contentious area. There is a thread somewhere on the hi-fi systems of celebrities, to which I have been tempted to post "Who cares?" Hi-Fi systems of world leaders may be interesting, though. I imagine TB with Bose or JBL. The last thing he'd want would be ESL 57s. Not cool enough, and not enough power handling. I doubt George W has a HiFi. Who knows. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3536 Registered: Dec-04 | Completely off topic(again), our Canadian lads have taken the World Lacrosse banner for Canada! I played for the red and white in 84-85 so I rather cherish the cup. Where were we... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3548 Registered: Dec-04 | Where is Larry? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 687 Registered: Nov-05 | Florida |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1403 Registered: Dec-03 | a not all that close neighbor............... |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 607 Registered: Mar-04 | Back. Vacation, visiting some good friends in Northport, it's just off the west coast, about half way between Tampa and Naples. Good time. Good food, even got in some golf. We looked at property there but for me, Florida would make a perfect 8 or 9 month home. I don't think I could take June, July, and August down there. Might be manageable with a summer place in the Thousand Islands or on a Canadian lake though. I can dream.. Larry? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4439 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Sem. Not so serious, then. Sounds great. The last post I read from Larry was July 10, on "Discoveries". |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4440 Registered: Dec-03 | Correction; July 09. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3580 Registered: Dec-04 | A personal fave of mine, passed away. http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/07/26/1703574-cp.html Just a sidebar for the USians who stole our design and made the f-16. Did I say that out loud? The absolute lowest point of the cold war for us nucks. Must furiously chop swiss chard now, wishing it was Diefenbaker. Where were we? |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1534 Registered: Oct-04 | Sem, et al - wellll, a belated welcome to Flawed-duh! No, you wouldn't really want to be here from late June until early October. Promise. . .but more and more people are staying here year-round. Mer and I are thinking very seriously of leaving - but the housing market right now is very depressed, and sinking. Sooooo - we'll be watching closely, and may put the house on the market in early February. Our potential target area is Charlotte, North Carolina, where classical music, opera and all sorts of good shopping live. Sigh. We'll see. . . Meanwhile, we're super-busy with Mer's art-teaching, and have little time for much else. Nothing new for me audio-wise - just getting older! (grin) Hope y'all are well and prosperous. . . Respectfully, LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3641 Registered: Dec-04 | Larry lives! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4444 Registered: Dec-03 | Welcome, Larry! |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 701 Registered: Nov-05 | "Meanwhile, we're super-busy with Mer's art-teaching" Larry, you're not the model again are you? Hope all is well with you both. You guys too John! and Rick, Sem, Nuck and . . . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4448 Registered: Dec-03 | Cheers, My Rantz! |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1535 Registered: Oct-04 | MR, et al: Actually, I WAS asked to be a model for one of the art classes. At least part of me was. . . Seems the students voted, and declared that I had a really big. . . . . .and symmetrical pair of hands. They're not "immortalized" in clay. The rest of me is not. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3681 Registered: Dec-04 | hehehe |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1048 Registered: Feb-04 | Seems the students voted, and declared that I had a really big. . . You know what they say about symmetrical hands.... |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 609 Registered: Mar-04 | "You know what they say about symmetrical hands...." ahh, they fit nicely in symmetrical gloves? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 702 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, What's really got me wondering is the use of past tense (had). [grin] So when they say you 'had' a really big pair of symmetrical hands, does that mean you also had a big . . . pair of feet? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4450 Registered: Dec-03 | There's a nice, similar exchange, involving Julia Roberts and what's-his name, in "Notting Hill". I was reminded also about Serge Gainsborough's planned plaster-cast of the part that he thought had given so much pleasure to women during his life. How French. It was probably his bank statement. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 1536 Registered: Oct-04 | MR - hmmmm. . .well, as the students and my clay hand sculpture are both gone elsewhere, I guess "had" is applicable here? Big feet? Yep - size 15 D. And the old saying jest ain' true. . .(unfortunately) (grin) |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 703 Registered: Nov-05 | Fortunately I'd say Larry going by those big floppers! Maybe you should try out for your olympic swim team. John, I vaguely recall that exchange. I must watch that movie again (not for that) but I recall a few good laughs. I'm going to make a plaster cast of my bank statement too - as soon as it goes into the black. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3690 Registered: Dec-04 | If the glove does not fit, you must admit? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4452 Registered: Dec-03 | One of the A family's "feel-good" movies, My Rantz. Yes, some good jokes. Our cat is named after the Welshman, Spike. I have explained that if he spikes our speakers then he is an ex-cat... On June 30, above, I mentioned a special issue of Hi-Fi News "Celebrating 50 Years of Audio Excellence". Over here it has been cleared from the shelves to make way for the August issue, which is redesigned, and for the worse imho. If you see the special issue, do take a look. It is excellent. There are some bones I was hoping to chew over with other Old Dogs. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 704 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks John, I saw it at a shopping center on the weekend, Didn't have time to peruse and baulked at the $10 price tag. I'll try to check it out next time. (No hifi mags at our local). Yes, the Welshman has popped up in a few movies since. In one he was a killer (stalker) and was quite disturbing rather than comedic. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4456 Registered: Dec-03 | Well, MR, a lot of the topics we have discussed here come up in that HFN issue. There are also the lists of top 50 products, top 50 people, etc., ove the last 50 years, and why they chose them. One contributor give his top 10 recordings and they are all by Pink Floyd. A bit obsessive, I thought. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8945 Registered: May-04 | . Tower records gave me a free DualDisc today. Do I dare put it in the Denon 2900? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 706 Registered: Nov-05 | Your 2900 will more than likely have a problem with the CD side, Jan. Mine does. That Pink Floyd contributor was probably Sem, John. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 610 Registered: Mar-04 | That Pink Floyd contributor was probably Sem, John. :-) In the flesh. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4457 Registered: Dec-03 | There is also an item in Aug HFN about a DVD-A of DSOTM. Internet only. I thought at first for download, but no, just to order the disc. 4.1 Better than the SACD, it said. I had to look up DualDisc. http://www.dualdisc.com/ The video clips are on sonymusic.com What is going on...?! BTW what is on it, Jan? |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 611 Registered: Mar-04 | John, There is also an item in Aug HFN about a DVD-A of DSOTM. Internet only. I thought at first for download, but no, just to order the disc. 4.1 Better than the SACD, it said. https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=660634#POST660634 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8950 Registered: May-04 | . "BTW what is on it, Jan?" At the moment, the kitchen table. I've looked at the artists' names and don't recognize any of them. Not a Johnny Cash song in the lot. The entire disc is recorded in "enhanced audio". The DVD side says it is a video presentation of the marvels of DualDisc. What?! I'm going to choose to sit and watch a commercial? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3705 Registered: Dec-04 | For free, you thought maybe a presentation of actual performances? That disc will provide balance to your soft table leg, if not your listening. And you thought the folded box-top was tacky! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4458 Registered: Dec-03 | Sem, Thanks. I thought I'd heard the story before. It was here, and from you. Jan, The DualDisc video clips (see link in my last post) grab me in exactly the same way. I've never heard of those pouting young people and don't really want to. I do not want DVD-V and CD on one disc. Can't see the point. Maybe it is addressing "music video" market. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 708 Registered: Nov-05 | Some DualDiscs are DVD-A in both high resolution 2.0 and 5.1 with video clips on one side and the CD layer on the other. Some just have DVD-A in HR 2.0 and DD or DTS surround and video clips on one side and the CD layer on the other. Some just have DD or DTS surround on one side and video clips and the CD layer on the other. Now if that's not enough of a nightmare - many players won't honor their warranties with problems caused by DualDiscs as they are thicker than the normal CD, SACD, DVD-A standard. Obviously the designer was a flaming genius! Many recent DVD-A's are being released with two discs - one is the DVD-A with 2 and Multi channel hi-res layers, some video and the other, a complete redbook CD. This is the way they should have been marketed from the start. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4459 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, I agree, MR. That is what I thought "DualDisc" was going to be. I was interested. Then I went to VIEW A ONE-MINUTE VIDEO CLIP ABOUT DUALDISC. If that link does not work, it is probably a format issue, so choose, instead, between links from the bottom of the page dual disc news. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 709 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks John I really needed that noise this morning :-) I have three DualDiscs - Diana Krall, Robert Cray and Eric Clapton. I doubt I'll buy any more. Though the cd layers don't work well (or at all) on the Denon 2900, they do on the NAD and Marantz CDP's but I did buy them for the hi-res content at the time. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3713 Registered: Dec-04 | Does anyone have a caliper or micrometer to measure these? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 710 Registered: Nov-05 | Interesting material here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DualDisc |
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Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 613 Registered: Mar-04 | Nuck, I don't have either of those two tools but I do have 3 DualDiscs and they all seem noticeably thicker and heavier than any of the other types of discs I own. Even so, I've never had any trouble playing any of the DD's on my Pioneer universal player. That said, I will only look to buy additional DualDiscs if I want that particular disc and there are no other options. I am of the opinion that this format should never have hit the market. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8953 Registered: May-04 | ' I thought the odds on DualDisc were down and the odds on DVD-HD were up. BluRay's hanging close on the inside and my heart's takin' a fall. The race is on and it looks like heartaches and the winner looses all. . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4463 Registered: Dec-03 | Is that a song, Jan? "Format War Blues".....? I do not want DVD-Video/CD DualDisc, either. Glad you enjoyed the clips, too, MR.... Is SACD and DVD-A for me? Sem, I know see you are onto that thread. Please write something there on using DSOTM to compare CD and SACD. I know there are things I don't know, to quote Mr Rumsfeld. I think the audio equivalent of a concrete bunker in the format war would be to copy all one's CDs to a huge hard drive. Then play them through a good external DAC. I fiddled around with computer-as-source again last weekend. The Rega Apollo CD player won hands down, no matter what the computer file format was, including native CD, and spinning the disc in the computer. At the beginning of this thread I was convinced CD was now unmasked as mediocre. Now I am not so sure. Harbeth loudspeakers FAQ, for example (thanks again for the link, on speakers, Jan): The painstaking one hundred year uphill path from wax cylinder, through 78's, then analogue tape, vinyl, CD and finally DAT steadily improved resolution, lowered noise and distortion and increased playing time. Each generation offered more audio performance. But Digital Compact Cassette (DCC) of the early 1990's confirmed to the music industry that hi-fi enthusiast's resistance to data compression was just a obstruction to commercial progress, easily dismissed and sidelined. From DCC onwards the audio-quality argument had been lost, with each future system offering less quality. Mini Disc became a huge success, extensively used in broadcasting (despite very heavy data compression and worries about encode-decode-re-encode) and that in turn begat MP3. For all practical purposes, consumer audio quality peaked in 1983 with CD. These now are the golden days for audio quality but with CD sales in decline, we can not assume that CDs will always be readily available. It is extremely unlikely that the audio quality available to the consumer will ever exceed the standard of today's CD, nor, perhaps, does it need to. It is certain that the consumer seems to values convenience - and cost - over absolute quality. LP, at it's best and under ideal conditions also offers a good-to-great quality. DAT, an excellent format was the final uncompressed format but inconvenient and susceptible to damage |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 220 Registered: Mar-06 | John, that's really quite depressing........ I will start looking locally for good quality 2nd hand vinyl with renewed vigor..... As an aside, I had my first taste of SACD playback at home, previously I had only listened to SACD/DVD-A at a hifi dealership. Our el-cheapo Pioneer DVD player gave up the ghost so it was time for a replacement. I picked up a Onyko DV-SP800G player that a local dealer had on clearance, at $999AUD, as opposed to its original selling price of $2799AUD. This machine does not have the latest HDMI interface, but this does not concern me, I am no video-phile. On the way home with my new DVD player, I stopped at Borders and picked up a couple of SACD's. I got Synchronicity by The Police, and Scary Monsters by David Bowie. My first impressions are quite positive, the Police album sounding quite nice. The sound I was getting was pretty smooth, free from digital nasties. I imagine this player has a bit more to give as it breaks in (I will run an burn in disc on repeat over-night and see what gives in the morning.) My main system is out of action at the moment, since I am doing some re-arranging at home. But I threw an impromtu system together quickly to listen to the Onkyo, it consisted of my humble NAD speakers, and my modded A60 amp. All sounded very nice together and seemed to be making musical sounds. Also I have just bought some ex-demo Dyn Contour 1.3 Se's. I cannot wait to try my new (to me) speakers with my AVi amp, but I either need new speaker cables, or need to re-terminate my existing cables, since Dynaudio don't seem to like bi-wiring... Lots of fun, and lot's of new equipment to get to grips with :-) cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 38 Registered: Apr-05 | Hey Dogs! I've been trying some new interconnects (silver-coated copper) with my 2-channel for the last five days. I had previously used some audio-quest copper interconnects (with aq speaker wire, too). The new interconnects are used from cdp to tube buffer box and from buffer to integrated tube amplifier. I like the new sound (good definition/ imaging and improved soundstage; better lows and highs, too), but I develop screaming headaches (both temples) after 10 to 20 minutes of listening with the new interconnects. If I use just one pair of the new interconnects (along with an aq interconnect pair) the headache symptom seems to decrease. The headaches are probably a symptom of listener fatigue, right? Or do the interconnects need further break-in? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4465 Registered: Dec-03 | Rav, Thanks. Keep posting, please, on your experience of SACD. RAC, A common cause of headache is dehydration. A common cause of listener fatigue is trying to listen to something one doesn't like, for whatever reason. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3714 Registered: Dec-04 | RAC, combine the two! Have a couple of pints and try another disc? All in the name of troubleshooting, of course. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4467 Registered: Dec-03 | Exactly. Then do a careful A-B comparison. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 221 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, when my main system is re-connected I try to do some detailed listening. But the only CD SACD combo I have is "Scary Monsters" by Bowie. The only problem here is that the main themes of this album are political oppression in the poorer parts of the world, and self-alienation from society in general. The sentiments are expressed with a real sense of pathos, which is nice to see. The album is produced by Tony Visconti, and the production values are a 5 karat flawless diamond in a platinum setting. But this is an album you really need to be in a suitable mood/frame of mind to listen to in detail. I think both the SACD, and the 24 bit remastered CD are sourced from the stereo master-tape, no multi-track masters were recovered for these re-issues. So the mix should be the same on both CD and SACD, but I cannot tell you if differing levels of EQ or sonic treatment were applied during the mastering process. cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4468 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Rav. It's always difficult to separate out content. If and when you have the system set up and are in a suitable mood/frame of mind.... I do not have an SACD player. Not yet. I looked at various options, earlier this year, and decided to just get a better CD player. It is a great pleasure. I enjoy hearing more in the music, and familiar discs as if for the first time. Like most people here, I suppose, I am still curious whether I am still missing something. But I already own n CDs. And, contrary to my original posts, here, I am still buying new ones. I visited a respected dealer with all the really upmarket gear (and from where got the Pirma Luna amp), expressing an interest in their opinion of SACD. The guy said "I wonder, may I ask, how many CDs you own...?" and then played me a bit of a Diana Krall CD through Martin Logans etc. I actually forget the player, it might have been Musical Fidelity or a Consonance tube ouput-stage CDP. Extraordinary, though not up there with the first hearing of Quad ESLs, when my own reference system was not so good. Probably my current system is at least equal to that in the recent demo, but would not play as loud. My room is much smaller than that demo room, and volume is not at all a problem. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 224 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, got to agree with you, a high quality CD player is a much more sane choice, than a SACD or DVD-A player (given the limited future of these mediums). Also if you have a large CD collection, then a suitable machine, like the Apollo, can essentially give you a "new enhanced CD collection" to explore and enjoy all over again. This has certainly been my experience with my modded Sony XA-5ES machine, it is a superbly built player. It has been fitted with all the LC-Audio hot rod parts, X03 clock + dedicated PSU, Zapfilter class-A output stage + PSU. It has numerous other mods also (black gate caps, and new IEC inlet). My experience with this machine has been fantastic, it really makes music and offers up to the listener a real feeling of a musical performance. BTW I did not set out to buy a SACD player. I just went out to the shops to buy a new DVD player, so the little one can watch his staple fare of The Wiggles and Thomas The Tank Engine. I happened to choose the Onkyo just because of its bargain price, and some internet research (actually did this on a PC inside the shop (!!!), just prior to purchase) revealed good reviews for this player. So SACD/DVD-A playback was a bonus. Actually the Onkyo DV-SP800 seems to do quite a respectable job as a CD player, but my Sony is in a altogether superior league. cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4470 Registered: Dec-03 | Cheers, Rav. I spent many years thinking all CD players were the same. Not so. Perhaps it was the "perfect sound" claim at the launch of CD. "Perfect sound" implies that there is one, universal signal coming out of all serious CD players; the same signal that was recorded onto the disc. As if in support, I found no significant difference in CD sound from various machines. Probably the rest of my system was the limiting factor. Nice that TTTE is an export. I could never warm to Ringo Starr's leaden delivery. Maybe it's a different series by now. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 227 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, my first serious experience of CD playback, was after 2 years of LP12 ownership. At the time my TT was a LP12(Valhalla), Ittok, and a wonderful Goldring G1042 MM catridge (a real gem of a cart). This was in 1990, and remember being very underwhelmed, the player was a 2-box Meridian, which cost a not inconsiderable 1500GBP at the time. (A couple of years later the LP12 fell into disuse because for work reasons I became a gipsy hoping from one country to another. I gave the Ittok to my BIL, he still has it in fact mounted on a Roksan Xerxes.) Finally in 1992 almost by random, I listened to of all things a JVC CD player, the XL-Z1050TN, this was the best CD player I had heard to date, and only cost 500GBP. This machine has what JVC call a K2 interface, the K2 interface is simply a LSI chip which sits adjacent to the DAC chip. It receives a clock input and the digital data from the disc. The K2 chip contains very fast switching gates, the aim is to provide very clean "edges" to the DAC chip, so the 0/1 transition point does not waver. The aim is to minimise the effects of interface induced jitter. I have been very happy with the JVC for many years. In fact I spent many years in a magazine induced coma thinking that the JVC must be hopelessly outdated due to all the advanced in DAC and DSP/digital filter design. It was only a couple/or three years ago I realised that the magazines were either grossly exaggerating, or they had never carefully listened to good machine like the JVC. Perhaps the UK press dismissed the JVC for being a mere JVC. I recall this machine did receive good reviews in the USA. In any case to end my digression, I am pretty happy with CD playback. A good machine like the Apollo represents very good value for money. To achieve good results from vinyl takes dedication and a lot of cash. For me the real achillies heel of the CD medium is the appalling mastering quality of early back catalogue releases. I am sure that early digital mastering equipment must have suffered from jitter. Also I would imagine that digital mastering was a completely new discipline, so mastering engineers would have been on a learning curve that only crested years later. So for albums blighted by the above, the same album on vinyl will sound quite acceptable on an inexpensive turntable like a Rega P3 for example. So after my long-ish digression, that is really my spark of interest in the hi-res digital formats. I am hoping that SACD/DVD-A or whatever comes next, can act as a sympathetic medium for older recordings which were butchered when first issued onto CD. One advantage of digital mediums is usually backwards compatibility eg: DVD players can play CDs, and SACD players can play CD's etc etc. But, the next-gen machines Blu-Ray and HD-DVD use blue lasers, so I am not sure how they will support legacy digital mediums, unless the machine is equipped with multiple laser blocks (I would guess that this obstacle is not insurmountable...) cheers Rav P.S. My initial listenings are somewhat puzzling. Scary Monsters SACD and CD when played on the Onkyo sound identical to me. I cannot discern any appreciable difference between SACD and CD. This caused to bring out the heavy metal, I pulled the modded Sony from its carton (15kgs pre mods, 17 kgs post mods!!). CD playback on the Sony totally detroys the Onkyo, the playback on the Sony is very torrid and very involving. I hope that this Bowie SACD is not another Nora Jones saga. My impromtu system seems to be growing!!!! But the Police album Synchronicity on SACD on the Onkyo sounds lovely, in fact to use a stereotype the playback is very analogue sounding and very un-fatguing. Also you can appreciate a lot of nuance, in particular how Mr Copeland sets up his drum kit, the kick drum sound is very very heavily damped, and the snare drum sounds very loose, but you can really appreciate that he is hitting the drum skins very hard. I don't have a CD reference to compare for this album, I may check my local lending library if they have this album on CD. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4472 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Rav. That is not so much of a digression. It all helps understanding. You obviously have a long experience of "high-end" gear. Prior to last year I had never spent more than £300 on any single item, and so I am coming from the "budget" or "entry-level" background; NAD etc. I guess I still am, to judge from current HiFi News reviews, with £15,000 for a CD player (Naim CD 555) or amp (Krell FBI). I remember the introduction of CD, gazing in shops at the first players from Sony and Philips (both £500) and the resistance from the audio press. HiFi News had a "50th Anniversary Issue" recently (My Rantz mentioned it is available now in Australia) and identified the Meridian MCD-Pro of 1986 as the player that helped to establish "CD credibility". Even though it cost as much as two Linn Sondeks. I eventually moved to CD in 1988 with a Marantz, about £300, when things had settled down a bit. I very much agree that early CDs mostly carried poorly-produced material, and, yes, it was probably the digital recording itself. There used to be a convention of DDD, ADD, AAD on discs. For some reason I recently bought a budget box of the complete Mahler Symphonies on EMI. The recordings span the introduction of digital recording. The earlier ones, before about 1980, are marked ADD and their sound is far superior, to me, to the later ones, marked DDD. The latter ones are strident and unnatural: same orchestra, venue, even engineers. The whole thing is listening-fatigue in a box, anyway, for me. Respected contributors to this and other threads extol Mahler. I still don't get it. Other posters here are probably resigned to the fact that I can only comment on recordings in "classical" music. Some things I like, and have acquired many different recordings and performances of the same music over the years. I thought I'd get a complete Mahler cycle by one orchestra (the LPO), for comparison with the other bits and pieces I already have. Not recommended. I am not opposed to other genres of music, but I have limited experience of them, from a hifi point of view. Following one of your other remarks: just from basic principles, I see no reason why blue lasers should not read CDs; they have a larger target to hit. It will not work the other way; red lasers will not resolve the smaller reflective pits designed to be read by narrower, blue laser light. On previous experience, "the industry" may try to avoid backwards compatibilty, as it did, at first, with SACD. Companies tell investors that they have found a way to get people volutarily to replace all their old collections with new ones, in a format they developed and own: the last thing they want is for people to be happy with what they've already got. That, again, was the SACD story circa 1998-9. Many people had, in fact, thrown away LP collections and replaced then with CDs. The industy's promise was that that would happen all over again. Another comment about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD; these really have little to do with sound quality. The push is for higher-definition video and, again, the convenience of getting a movie's-worth on a 12 cm-diameter optical disc. That's why we have double-layer discs, in the first place. CD was different. It's aim was to be a new medium for distribution and sales of sound recording. Even the CD-ROM came later, as I recall. Having pronounced it in terminal decline, I am slowly warming, once again, to CD. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8961 Registered: May-04 | . " ... the aim is to provide very clean 'edges' to the DAC chip, so the 0/1 transition point does not waver. The aim is to minimise the effects of interface induced jitter." Sounds like what we ascribe to Pledge. Regarding jitter, the effects were well known by 1985 and outboard devices to reclock and reduce jitter were on the market by 1986. The Meridian made similar claims to low jitter being (one of the technical innovations of the deck) responsible for its "analog-like" sound quality. Anyone remember the early digital recordings released on LP? Played on a system optimized for vinyl with the wrong MC cartridge, they were brain freeze in about five minutes. Many of the early CD catalog contained these atrocities. . |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 37 Registered: Jun-06 | Rav: I regularly use 'Tea in the Sahara' to demo the merits of SACD to friends who are not familiar with hi-fi audio. You can hear Sting use his thumb to pluck the strings, you can hear his muting technique to obtain the rhythm to the tune. And there's some neat guitar noodling with production effects that pop out on top of everything. Great track. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4473 Registered: Dec-03 | "...'so the 0/1 transition point does not waver'....Sounds like what we ascribe to Pledge." It makes sense. The pulse of light is analogue; intensity changing with time. The output from the photodiode is analogue; voltage changing with time. The precise time at which the transition between 0 and 1 occurs will vary according to sensitivity, rise-time, and general accuracy of the detector, its amp, and the DAC. "Anyone remember the early digital recordings released on LP?" Yes. I still have these. I remember being underwhelmed. Last time I played them, I still was. The very first releases had record reviewers drooling, and I wondered why I could not hear this huge step forward in etc. etc. Lifeless, anaemic, I thought. But it could always be my system, too, I thought. One of the SACD-CD hybrid discs I bought recently has, on the CD layer, about the worst, driest, most lifeless, most brittle, spot-miked-to-death recordings I have heard for years. I doubt if the sound has anything to do with jitter or sampling frequency; the microphone placement is all wrong and the material sounds like people are playing in the open air, a long way away. Simple test of SACD/CD Play an SACD and record the analogue output using linear pulse code modulation at 44.1 kHz, 16-bit. Take the resulting CD, play it back, and compare its sound with the sound from the original SACD, played with the same player, through the same equipment, at the same volume. Is there any difference? Has this been done? If not, why not? Is it not this simple...? |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 712 Registered: Nov-05 | Just because it's SACD John, certainly doesn't guarantee a quality recording. I have SACD's and DVD-A's ranging in SQ from poor to sensational - no different to CD's and my old LP's of my youth. As to your "Simple test of SACD/CD" I think it is flawed because in the final analysis you are not comparing apples with oranges, you are comparing mutant apples with oranges. I believe the quality SACD has rather a smooth, and more of an analogue type of sound, but that does not always result in a preferable sound. There are some SACD's which I believe sound really wonderful, yet when I listen to the HDCD layer (or sometimes even a treated CD) through the NAD CDP I find I might prefer that as the sense of timing might be better or it may have a more open and appealing sound - this of course may well be listener dependent. But, again, imho when listening in multichannel, all bets are off - it will usually win hands down (on the better ones of course). Some people flout DSOTM as their reference SACD, but I find, while it's very good, there are better. Definitely an improvement over the old cd and lp (from memory), but usually newer recordings done in the DSD format from the get-go are the ones to beat. On older recordings I think DVD-A redoes the sound a little better than SACD. Of course I am not comparing things with high end components so that probably makes my opinions on this subject less reliable to any well heeled audiophile. As my good old mum would often say, "There's good and bad in everything". I wonder if she ever realised there were points on the scale in between? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3744 Registered: Dec-04 | MR, I think your kit is a bit more useful in this type of evaluation than something esoteric. A setup that is more mainstream really means more to all us regular people, although there is something to be said for listening to mega-buck gear in a gorgeous store with free coffee(with real cream). I use Hell freezes over for SACD testing, and really enjoy the effect. Unfortunately, I am running only 2 speakers for now, but in 5.1 this disc is really good,and sounds quite different than the dvd(which lit up the HD light on my modest player for some reason). A good listen is something that is familiar, and I cannot think of another release that all of us here might have heard in common, beyond the classic Floyd. Can you? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4474 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, guys. MR;- "As to your "Simple test of SACD/CD" I think it is flawed because in the final analysis you are not comparing apples with oranges, you are comparing mutant apples with oranges. " I don't understand, sorry. I was hoping to compare apples with apples. Could you expand a little on this? All, I've done a little searching for previous comparisons. There is a Stereophile "Soapbox" article on http://www.stereophile.com/showsoap.cgi?328 which people have discussed but which I can't get - my browser takes me to the Stereophile main page. I guess it's OK to quote part of replies here. I'll give the source link as acknowledgement. http://mail.music.vt.edu/pipermail/sacd/2004-January/000124.html We have done no SACD recording for a record company for a long time, and there is much more interest even in analogue than there is for DSD these days. We have had three format shootouts in the last eight weeks during recording sessions. On each occasion first generation recordings made with a used Studer analogue machine bought off EBay for UKL80 beat UKL12000's worth of 176k4 pcm, followed by UKL15000's worth of DSD, with well made 44k1 CD burnt on a Tascam CDR burner costing UKL400 not very far behind. Aside from delivering surround where it comes out well, I cannot get excited by SACD any more for 2 channel listening - sorry - the classical recording industry is in enough of a mess already. Worst of all, the fine details of the different formats and their various compatibilities and incompatibilities are incomprehensible to most non-technophiles - they'll play an lp, turn on the CD player, go on the internet, watch a movie or simply go to the pub instead. If DSD-SACD recordings will not play on a PC nor on most DVD players, nor are readily downloadable, then the format is a commercial suicide-wish for normal record companies, however much fun I acknowledge it is for audiophiles to debate. Thank you, Tony Faulkner http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/93/105 Post by zeus August 4, 2003 (4 of 6) reply I've approached Tony Faulkner to participate in this discussion. In the meantime, here are his replies, reproduced with permission: "Thanks for the link. It reads as a bit of a rant, but that is the nature of the column. It is intended to be provocative, and I accept it will be unpopular in some places. A bit like how Washington and Westminster are having to respond to the realities about how the some of the stated and published justifications were put together for the military action in the Middle East. "I shall make sure I have my soldier's metal hat and bullet-proof vest on for the next week or so. It will be interesting to see who, if anyone, takes any notice. Seen from here in the UK classical recording industry I think that a giant yawn has already split the cosmos as far as high density disc releases are concerned. "This is a triangle of wishful thinking fools being fed propaganda to attempt to suspend corporate disbelief - the player manufacturers who have been told that the record companies and consumers want it and will support it; the consumers who have been told the record companies and player manufacturers want it and will support it; the record companies who have been told the hardware manufacturers and consumers want it and will support it. "As a niche minority carrier, I believe there is insufficient demand to justify major record companies making the discs, to a lesser extent for companies to make the players. The only things keeping this concept in the air are the cheque book and the propaganda machine. For it to be a proper commercial success, the format(s) must make significant volume penetration beyond fashion-driven audiophile circles - how can this ever be ? - that is my message. "If someone comes up with a solution and hard evidence beyond a cheque book and propaganda to buy support, I am ready to be convinced. For most committed audiophiles the vinyl lp remains supreme, and this is an extraordinary irony. The lp's strongest feature is its known track record, the huge existing player base and its immediately identifiable differences in operation and appearance." and: "Very fair comments, which I am happy to accept. For the record (as it were) we have not recorded any new analogue yet, let alone pressed or released any. Assuming we proceed, the first few lp releases will be in February 2004. In this specific case the chicken came before the egg - my realisation that high density audio discs formats were not going to take the world by storm happened a long time before any notion of making analogue recordings and lp's again. We shall not get rich doing analogue, any more than we have from DSD & 96kHz - but at least there is a chance of more of an audience, and the sad thing (for SACD and DVD-Audio) is that well made analogue still sounds great." As I said, I can't find the article that the discussion seems to be about. There are some responses critical of Faulkner's statements, but they are difficult to summarise. There is also a recording Stereophile: Project K622 Producer: John Atkinson Engineer, analog editor: Tony Faulkner I could pull some quotes from that excellent article, but this is already too long. Apart from contacting these guys, the best in the business (imho) directly, I suppose I'd better get hold of the LP and hybrid (SA)CD before waffling on further. The bottom line seems to be there is no agreement on the advantages of SACD and DSD is a pain to use, edit, and play. Sorry about the length. "TMI" I suppose. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 229 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, a good post, with good comments from the quoted article. I agree that regardless of the technical merits of these new formats, the current situation is a mess, put that together with consumer contentment with MP3 quality, and we have what we have the current status quo. Any efforts made to maximise CD playback quality for those with large CD collections are a sane use of one's time, ditto for those with a large LP collection. But my very limited exposure of SACD has again re-inforced somtething that I have long known, that regardless of the playback technology employed, it is the quality and propriety of the recording and production process which is the biggest single determining factor in the overall sound quality. (Also my comment previous comment about blue lasers was probably ill-informed. I was just commenting based on something that I had read but not really thought about from the hifi press.) Geoff: I agree with you that the Police SACD sounds great, and the track you metion is very nice indeed. Even though my SACD machine is not a dedicated SACD player (Onkyo DV-SP800), this disc still plays back very nicely, with a very relaxed temperament that I have only really commonly heard from a good vinyl setup. cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 230 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, one further comment from me. You say in your post "You obviously have a long experience of "high-end" gear." Well my response to this is as follows: No, not really, my "hifi career" started out well, but then went downhill for many years, I am only making up lost ground in recent times. My first system was pretty much all NAD (classic 3020A amp was the hub of the system), and I had some very nice Boston Acoustics A40 speakers (2-way sealed box, very nice!), which I wish I had never gotten rid of. This 1st system was funded by 1) a paper round 2) some dodgy deals selling bike parts to school-mates and 3) a cash injection from my parents (thanks mum and dad!). Years later my next system was probably the Zenith of what I have achieved sonically: LP12(Vallhalla), Ittok, Goldring G1042, A&R A60 amp (very nice, still works beautifully, very sweet amp), and Wharfedale 505.2 speakers (very efficient and an easy load for the A60). All I can say about this system is that "you never know what you have until it's gone....". After that I entered the audio bad-lands....... cheers Rav |
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