Internal wiring
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3832 Registered: Dec-04 | As I am going to rewire the speakers internals, I should ask here first. Is it better to use the same as my external wire(Liberty 14g bi-wire) or is something else more suitable/proven? As well, when replacing the 10 year old caps, what type is recommended? Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 94 Registered: Jul-06 | Why? Are these DIY speakers? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9014 Registered: May-04 | . Don't change the internal wiring. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3834 Registered: Dec-04 | How come? These are 10yrs old, so a recap withpoly caps might speed up the low drivers a bit, but why not the wiring, please? I found such an improvement when replacing the speaker leads, would this change be better/worse? Of course I will be able to switch back, in any case, just wondered why, Jan? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 128 Registered: Apr-06 | Changing caps and wiring can change the voicing of the speaker. Even if the caps are of the same value, all of their electrical properties will unlikely be the exact same as the previous caps. Same with the lead wire. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3840 Registered: Dec-04 | SM, thats kind of the idea. The caps are 10 now, and wet type. The speakers seem to be lagging behind the speed of the amp, especially with the newer speaker leads. That may be a 'loose' term, but I bottomed one driver(albeit with the poor Rotel), because of timing. The new amp is much more accurate, timing-wise, I want to be sure the speakers are spot on. The wiring should have little effect, but if the improvement from the leads are any indication... |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 129 Registered: Apr-06 | Yeah, but its not always easy to predict the effect that will occur. I spent some time modding speakers and eventually decided the cheaper caps n wiring that were originally in the speaker just had better synergy with the system. In any event, madisound is always a good place to start looking. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3841 Registered: Dec-04 | SM, these aren't DIY speaks. PSB Stratus Silver that I already rebuilt the XO's once(small fire, hehe). I can undo any mods with an iron. The stock internal wiring is with low strand count stock wire and push-on .250 and .187 conn's. I want to replace the wiring with newer high count, like the leads. The caps should deliver some snap and response times to keep the low drivers from a fate unbecoming, and to keep up with the new amp, I figgur. Absolutely, you are correct in deciding that the originals are there for a reason, however, the designer never knew what the speaker leads and amplification would be.Yes? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 130 Registered: Apr-06 | Still though, I can't imagine re-voicing the system with new caps and internal wiring in the hopes that you will match the amplifier/speaker leads. They don't exactly sell them saying "will match with rotel". |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3842 Registered: Dec-04 | SM, could you imagine them saying 'will match with your room, or Classe or anything else'? I am not trying to argue at all, far from it. All opinions are welcomed and appreciated. The units have been well used are fully fluid in the surrounds/supports and are currently delivering the best sound ever(due largely to the Classe gear running them). I see the caps as having run full cycle, charging, slewing, and so forth, don't you think these things have a lifespan? I recapped an old amp and had great luck, aren't the old wet caps in the XO's due a retirement? Again, the wiring can be reversed(caps too, I suppose), but wrong can be wrong, what is the particular hangup you see, beyong un-doing the original intent? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 131 Registered: Apr-06 | It's mostly that it is hard to predict the exact effect of replacing the caps with that of a different type will have upon the system. It could be positive, but it could well introduce problems that you didn't forsee. As you say, it can be reversed, so there isn't a huge risk on your part. But just my experience with it has left me with a sour taste in my mouth. Either way though, Madisound would be the first place I would look. Good quality and reasonable pricing on all kinds of components. I was actually lucky previously that I had the lead designer of the speaker company assisting me with my previous mods, and it went a long ways. Then I got greedy and messed it all up  Dah well, the ex got em, so its no sweat off my back anymore. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3843 Registered: Dec-04 | I will look there SM, thanks. I will also call the tech to catch up on the factory rec's. About the ex...sorry about that, Chief. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9017 Registered: May-04 | . Try contacting Tim for an opinion. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3848 Registered: Dec-04 | I will wait till Tim show's up, no need to bother him. Go ahead and gimme change for a nickel,Jan. |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 117 Registered: Apr-06 | post pics? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3850 Registered: Dec-04 | of what, Kyle? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 132 Registered: Apr-06 | No worries bout the ex thing; My profile has my current system which wipes the floor with my prior system anyways |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3851 Registered: Dec-04 | Good! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9020 Registered: May-04 | . As has been suggested, you risk altering the Xo in undetermined ways. Each piece of wire will change the I,R and C of the Xo. As will each inductor you change and each cap. Every one of these pieces is there for a reason other than they looked pretty all lined up like that. Change the R of the Xo and you change the crossover frequency in some way. What way? You won't know. How much will you alter the original Xo? You won't know. Add some additional capacitance with different internal wiring and you change the crossover frequency. Same with inductance. There little chance you will pick new wiring that exactly matches the original to preserve the original values. Are the caps worn out? Probably not if they work at all and don't show signs of leakage. AC caps don't work similar to DC caps in this sense. The inductors certainly aren't worn out but they would be where I would first make any alterations. The inductors are also where you stand the best chance of f'ing things up. " ... the designer never knew what the speaker leads and amplification would be.Yes?" Probably not. But that's why the designer probably didn't listen to the speaker on just one amplifier with one set of cables when it was designed. But the Xo was adjusted to work well with what could logically be expected as amplification and cables. Your statement is circular logic which unfortunately forms a "U". Your speakers. Your choice. But you've confused me with this, " ... but I bottomed one driver(albeit with the poor Rotel), because of timing." Because of timing? 'Splain that one, Lucy. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3852 Registered: Dec-04 | It seemed that the driver was wanting to go forward when the music was surely wanting it to go back, resulting in an audible, uhh..'thunk'. You would hear it too, I am sure, but describe it with a term more accurate than said 'thunk'. The bass just seems really slow to respond. This was at considerable volume, as usual. This is all with the Rotel amp of course, I have yet to try the Classe amp at volume, under similar usage. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3855 Registered: Dec-04 | Perhaps it is the poor damping factor of the Rotel which caused the unhappiness. I will try again with the Classe amp. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 135 Registered: Apr-06 | Or you're playing it too loud? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3856 Registered: Dec-04 | not near the headroom on either end, SM. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9023 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, Nuck, I don't grasp the idea of the woofer moving forward when the music is moving backward. To be dense about it, that sounds more like a problem with absolute phase. And there is nothing that even remotely resembles absolute phase with rock recordings. But, you want to change the caps to improve this? Look at the Xo and figure out how many caps are in line with the woofer and what they do. Look at the Xo and figure out how many inductors are in line with the woofer and what they do. Changing which piece will probably have the largest effect on the woofer's performance? Assuming, that is, this is not a problem of the woofer's or the enclosure's design. You seem to be making some assumptions based on your experience with your amplifier which I don't think will always hold truth in a speaker. . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1769 Registered: Feb-04 | Caps do drift in spec, but I'm not sure 10 years can be considered a long time, whereas 25 years is a long time. So your mileage may vary. The drift will cause shifts in frequency cutoffs, and increased resistance will affect the sound adversely as well. It's therefore a good thing to return the XO to factory specs once in-a-while with updated caps. How fancy you want to get with tme is up to you (as plain as Solen, up to Auricaps on onto Hovland and beyond). If you notice no change then you can assume your originals were still good. As for changing wire, it's really up you. Not changing wire because of a fear of introducing changes in the I, R and C of the Xo is the silliest thing I've heard today (and we're in the afternoon too!), but since that information comes from the poster that people here respect the most, then you should take that advice to the bank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3857 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, both. Jan, yes, I could be misinterpreting the interaction between amp and speakers. I have had both for some time, but only a few sessions with the kit in present form, speaker wires and classe pre. Switching phase at the preamp does not seem to affect things all that much, but then again, I did not prompt the speakers to repeat the symptom, for obvious reasons. PG, I appreciate any and all answers to my posts. If I choose one path to start, it is with as much research and confidence that I feel that I need. That confidence could be bolstered from any contribution at all. So long as the changes are reversible, I will try the wiring first, and post results, although the way the schedule looks, that may be another week, or two. Thanks to all. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9024 Registered: May-04 | . For someone coming across this thread to find some general information, PG has some decent points. In his case he began with speakers which were designed in the 1940's and, even when purchased twenty five years ago, used fairly mediocre parts with inexpensive caps at 10% tolerance and resistors at 5%. The capcacitors and resistors used were not expensive when the speakers were new since the knowledge/science/marketing of component quality has only been available in the last two decades or so. The original components in PG's speakers in the 1970's would be considered far below the norm in almost any speaker today. The internal wiring was simple 18 AWG zip cord and the construction quality of the Xo was typical of speakers made at that time. It was hardly at the same level of quality we expect from even a $250 speaker today. If this is what you are starting with, it shouldn't be difficult to improve the Xo merely by buying components which have tighter tolerances and better quality. A 5% or better toleranced cap would bring the Xo far closer to the manufacturer's spec, as would a 1% resistor. A 1% cap available today would be a wise choice. Neither of these tolerances are difficult to find today although they would have been expensive parts in 1975 and few speaker manufacturers went to that much trouble and cost at that time. Better internal wiring for a twenty five year old speaker would be almost anything that wasn't once plugged into a floor lamp. Improving the quality of the individual components toward what is typically used in mid priced speakers today would eliminate many of the problems which are inherent in most twenty to thirty year old speakers. (Though the overall construction of many twenty five year plus speakers is still obviously old fashioned by today's standards and would unfortunately present insurmountable problems compared to even the least expensive speakers available today.) Even a better quality speaker from the 1960-70's would probably benefit from the improvements which have occurred in component quality over the last twenty years. The changes made by altering the I,R,C of the Xo with new tighter toleranced parts would be far less than the wide tolerances of the original parts allowed. (I would, however, make note that the person making the above comments regarding internal wiring feels both that $1 per foot cable is more than adequate and that there isn't any real difference in speaker cables. Draw your conclusions regarding changing internal wiring with that knowledge in mind.) Also, in PG's case, his speakers utilized the acoustic roll off of the horn loaded drivers in conjunction with the Xo components. This will make the function of the Xo less critical to the final sound than would the same changes made to dynamic drivers in a conventional speaker system. The beneficial results PG acquired after changing Xo components might not be found in any other speaker designed within the last fifteen to twenty years. His speakers are a rather rare case when compared to home audio speakers from past decades. I would, however, agree that caps should easily last longer than ten years in a Xo. If you are dealing with a speaker like an original Advent which was designed in the late 1960's, changing the Xo components would probably garner decent results. However, if you are dealing with a Thiel CS1.2 from fifteen years ago, I would not change the Xo unless you are very confident you know what you are going to achieve. (And, PG, that last little comment was uncalled for and rather pitifully evident of your emotional problems. If you want to make a comment which moves the thread along, do so. There's no need to constantly let your irrational dislike for me color all of your responses. We are all just trying to get along here, PG. Why don't you try also.) . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9025 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - If you are determined to "improve" your crossovers, I would suggest you begin with bypass caps. A picofarad or two in parallel with each larger cap should give a fairly decent improvement in sound, if your caps are your problem. This shoudn't be enough to alter the Xo in any significant manner and at least this is controllable in the values you will be dealing with. Even if you decide to replace the original caps at a later date, you can still use the same bypass caps. Save money, save time and get decent results. Worth a shot? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3859 Registered: Dec-04 | Yup, worth a shot indeed. I am wanting to make sure the response from the drivers is optimal. If that is the case already, I ain't out much, right? If I do the mod and find nothing, I can say that I have done all I can to optimize these speakers wiithout replacement. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 93 Registered: May-06 | ...without replacement" Hmmm, sounds like someone I know who put cones and pucks under speakers and upon discovering they were not stable, had to find speakers that did not fall down so easy. |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 128 Registered: Apr-06 | Of you solder adn replacing the wire adn such. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1773 Registered: Feb-04 | JV is delusional if he thinks $250 a-pair speakers made today come with high-quality caps. And eveyone should note how he spent 4 paragraphs denegrating my choice of speakers in order to taint my argument... which concerned his warning against changing the wires inside the speaker because that would affect the crossover electrical properties! You'll note that he didn't address this point at all in his reply. I won't even address his silly points against my speakers. As for the uncalled-for comment, why, I don't know what he's talking about. Surely, he'll agree that he is the most respected poster on the forum? As for getting along, I was away for one week and, on my return, I read a few missiles shot my way from him, written in my absence. He should pratice what he preaches. He may fool others who don't pay close attention here, but he doesn't fool me. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3862 Registered: Dec-04 | fukin yadda yadda. Y'all can swing away, I just suck up info. Appreciate all input. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1065 Registered: Oct-04 | The easiest target for such "sniping" attacks PG is the one who responds to them. You claim Vigne's wrong but offer no substantive arguments against his claim that the inductance and resistance of the speaker is affected by the way the speaker is wired. Vigne agreed with you that re-wiring your speakers with respect to when they were manufactured stating the caps and wiring were no better than that used in a lamp cord. Your response is "no they aren't." Do you constue his comments on your speaker choice as a personal attack? Does every time he mentions your speakers in a post mean he is singling you out for owning them? Maybe he is intentionally making comments he knows will piss you off. However no one would know they were directed your way if you just shrugged them off. Maybe I'm wrong and he's made comments directly against you, please give examples, all I've seen is him making comments about speakers that he believes are low quality. An opinion he is entitles to IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1774 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm talking caps. He's talking actual wires. If you think engineers actually change cap and inductance values according to which flavour of wire you use in a crossover, then go with that. I'm not about to set oput to prove why a few feet of different speaker wre inside the speaker cabinet won't make much difference (unless corroded or real junk to begin with). Maybe you all should get card printed-out for the JV fan club, since whatever he says must be right. The irratating part about his 4 paragraphs against my choice of speaker is that it's not relevant to the discussion, yet he brings them up again. He mixes a few facts together with lots of bad opinion to make it all more credible, yet most of it doesn't make any sense when you are in the know. I've already said that I won't address his (wrong) points here about them, so I don't see where I said "no they aren't". Everyone who can read can see he was talking about my speakers, because he said so. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9027 Registered: May-04 | . " ... level of quality we expect from even a $250 speaker today." "JV is delusional if he thinks $250 a-pair(my emphasis) speakers made today come with high-quality caps." It's a little trick I picked up in sales, PG. If you're talking about a pair of speakers, price them by the pair. I know it's difficult to see straight when blinded by hysteria, but by $500 per pair, I would expect decent caps and parts in a speaker. I would certainly expect better than a 10% tolerance component in today's competitive speaker market. And, I would expect a poly film type capacitor. Something that wasn't available to most speaker manufacturers twenty five years ago and something not found in your particular speakers. I might even be looking for an air core inductor or two. Again something not found in your original speaker's crossover. Your speakers began life with what many people today would consider less than stellar parts, PG. There's not much I can do to change that fact. A lot of speakers did. It's an opinion, but an opinion held by more people than just myself. Apparently you felt the parts could use some "improvement" or you wouldn't have changed anything since the Xo's were working at the time you made the change. Correct? They were working? Then why did you change? "I won't even address his silly points against my speakers." Would you please refer me to a "silly point" made against your speakers? Would you please refer me to a statement about your speakers which isn't true? Would you please point me to where I said anything about your speakers that suggested anything other than they are twenty five years old and reflect their age and horn loaded design? The nature of the horn loading means your experience with altering the Xo in your speakers might not be the same experience someone without horn loaded speakers might encounter. If someone begins with a pair of dynamic speakers where the Xo is solely responsible for the roll off of the drivers, they will not have the acoustic roll off of the horn to act as a buffer for any errors they commit. "And eveyone should note how he spent 4 paragraphs denegrating my choice of speakers in order to taint my argument... " Would you please point to a sentence which denegrates your choice of speakers? I pointed out the fact your speakers are twenty five years old, a fact you brought up first. I pointed out your speakers are horn loaded. A fact I always thought you were proud of. As with the mention of original Advents, my intention was to give some perspective on when I felt replacing internal components might be beneficial. " ... which concerned his warning against changing the wires inside the speaker because that would affect the crossover electrical properties! You'll note that he didn't address this point at all in his reply." First of all, it wasn't a reply. It was a comment which began by stating you had made some decent points. If you will read the following sentence again, I think you will see I did address the issue of altering the I,R,C of the system in an elderly speaker. "The changes made by altering the I,R,C of the Xo with new tighter toleranced parts would be far less than the wide tolerances of the original parts allowed." That seems clear to me. As to any specific statements regarding the I,R,C of internal wiring, I withheld any specific comments. "I'm not about to set oput(sic) to prove why a few feet of different speaker wre (sic) inside the speaker cabinet won't make much difference." Neither was I trying to begin a discussion of the quality of various speaker cable within this thread. But, since you insist ... "If you think engineers actually change cap and inductance values according to which flavour of wire you use in a crossover, then go with that." Thank you. I will go with that. I do think many decent speaker designers tweak their designs based upon the entire system. In some cases, even the solder they use. That means changing one part will affect all parts and will ultimately alter their intent. Otherwise, why would a company such as Wilson use three different varieties of internal wiring (and solder) in one speaker system, if they didn't believe there was a difference to be heard? That you cannot hear an improvement when changing speaker cable is not a problem I can address nor do I feel responsible for. Let's say you begin with a speaker which has internal wiring of high inductance and low capacitance. If the speaker designer spent time getting this speaker "right", changing the internal wiring to a low inductance/high capacitance cable will possibly (probably) alter the entire nature of the Xo and speaker system. This would be most particularly true when the new cable feeds the signal to the Xo. And the effect would be more pronounced at the high volumes Nuck tends to employ as the inductance of the system changes with heat build up. If you know the parameters of the original cable and can match the new cable to those parameters, then I see no real problem with changing the internal wiring. But, then why change? The I,R,C of the cable has, in my opinion, the most obvious effect upon its performance in a speaker system. If you do not know the parameters of the internal cabling you wish to remove, then I would say you should not replace the wire with another unknown. In both my LS3/5a's and Spica Angeli, the admonition is not to change the internal wiring. The internal cabling was chosen to give the speaker its "voice" and changing the wiring will alter that quality. There are more than singular examples of people who thought they knew better than the original designers of these speakers and who screwed up their own speakers by changing the wire because they felt it was too thin, or too parallel or too much the wrong color. I can't help it if you don't believe this is true, PG. Experience tells me this is true. You get your opinion and I get mine. You - and Nuck - get to do whatever you like with your speakers. Likewise, I get to do ... "He mixes a few facts together with lots of bad opinion to make it all more credible, yet most of it doesn't make any sense when you are in the know." Then teach us, PG. Do not berate anyone. Don't waste our time. Provide information without the commentary. I think it has been made clear no one here has anything against you personally. But your "arguments" get lost in the fluster trying to deal me a deadly blow. I merely need to say you made some decent points and you are off on a tear. You spend your time posting into a thread just to make comments regarding my personality. Why? Does that move the thread forward? People have their own feelings about me, PG. They do not require your assistance to sort this out. They read what I post and they decide based upon what I post. Let it be. Post something useful and not these paranoid confessions of how you know I am attacking your choice of speakers. If you wish to debate anything I've said, do so without any personal comments about how I mix up facts and opinions and it all seems more ... ]i{credible!} Debate the issues, PG, and do not worry about the person making them. You've done none of the former in your last two posts and all of the latter in the same. "As for the uncalled-for comment, why, I don't know what he's talking about." Then I'll ask you very nicely, once again. Please stop letting your personal dislike for me interfere with the information we come here to exchange. I've told you I have nothing against you personally. What more do you wish? "As for getting along, I was away for one week and, on my return, I read a few missiles shot my way from him, written in my absence." I'm sorry, PG, I guess I missed your email stating that I shouldn't write anything in your absence. Actually, I guess I missed the email stating you would be taking a leave of absence. (And, to be honest, I didn't notice.) You did that once before when you swore off returning to the forum due to my presence. Now you're back. Why anyone would come to any place where they find someone they dislike so much is beyond me. If you would like to stay, why not make it more pleasant for everyone? There, now we've wasted another post talking about something which doesn't have anything to do with Nuck's plans. . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1775 Registered: Feb-04 | ARGGGG! Let me repeat... My speakers have NOTHING to do with this discussion. There mere fact that you bought them up is beyond me. Here were my points: - The advice to NOT swap out internal speaker wire because it must have be designed into the crossover is silly, considering the very low effect that they have on measurable parameters. If you wonder about the audible effect of speaker wire when running 30 feet lengths, imagine the effect of a few feet within the speaker. So I told Nuck his mileage may vary if he tried this, but it couldn't hurt. So we disaggree on that; I'll remember to tell the engineer to account for the LCR of the wire the next time I order after-market crossovers. Yeah, right. - Caps DO drift in specs over time. Even brand new ones! Replacing them to original specs is alwways a good idea if they have drifted. Whether they have drifted or not within 10 years is a coin toss, but they most likely would have after 25 years. There. Those were my original points. I wonder why bringing-in the design of Klipschorns seemed so relevant to you. You seem to believe both at the same time that Klipschorns aren't as suceptible to crossover changes as modern speakers and, in the next sentence, that the benefit I got won't apply to modern speakers. In fact, since the crossover points and the output level is determined from the LCR values of the parts in the crossover, then any drift in value will affect them. This applies for any design, modern or not. Obviouly a higher-order design will be more suceptible to drift. BTW, Solen caps are rated at 5% tolerance. Builders usually buy large quantities and measure them. These caps, while not considered super-audiophile grade, are generally better than the very inexpensive caps you'll find in most $500 a-pair speakers. I very much doubt that you'll find $100 worth of caps in $500 speakers, considering the typical 100% retail price markup on speakers. As for the call for civility, we should get Ed to count the number of insults you throw around in a single day. Now there's an idea... |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1776 Registered: Feb-04 | Nuck, some good advice from a crossover builder on another forum: Be very careful re-wiring the speaker if any soldering is done on the driver connections. The larger the wire, the hotter the terminal gets during soldering and the greater the possibility of damaging the driver from excess heat. I often repair drivers that were fine before someone decided that putting larger wire in the speaker is a good thing. It is easy to spend lots more than the wire cost in diaphagms. Now before you guys that are good at soldering tell me that you can do this without causing any damage, I already know that. This was not written to you. Of course if you are good at soldering, you should already know that no audible improvement is possible by going from good wire to bigger wire. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3867 Registered: Dec-04 | uhh..nuck over here... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9028 Registered: May-04 | . "If you wonder about the audible effect of speaker wire when running 30 feet lengths ... " I don't. I never have. I doubt I ever will. Are we now going to turn this into a cable thread? "So we disaggree on that; I'll remember to tell the engineer to account for the LCR of the wire the next time I order after-market crossovers." You're ordering again? What's wrong with the ones you just installed? Do your speakers still sound like Klipschorns? "- Caps DO drift in specs over time. Even brand new ones!' We'll ignore the absurdity of how that is written and just say, I never indicated they didn't or wouldn't. That wasn't my point. Please read again my two posts. Read slowly for comprehension. You seem to be missing something. "I wonder why bringing-in the design of Klipschorns seemed so relevant to you." OK. I DIDN'T!!! You were the first person to mention Klipschorns in this thread. Bringing-in?!!! Once again you've both misinterpreted what I posted and replaced my words with your own manic readings. I never mentioned you owned Klipschorns. I never mentioned what brand of speaker you owned at all! I brought up the issue of a horn loaded driver exactly for the reasons I've stated. That is what is relevant to my posts. I really doubt that anyone finds it relevant that you own Klipschorns. Why in the world do you think they, or I, would? "You seem to believe both at the same time that Klipschorns aren't as suceptible to crossover changes as modern speakers and, in the next sentence, that the benefit I got won't apply to modern speakers." WHERE DID I SAY THAT? WHERE, PG? POINT IT OUT! WHERE? YOU ARE TRYING TO PUT WORDS WHERE THEY NEVER EXISTED AND I AM GETTING QUITE TIRED OF YOUR INSANITY! Where did I say that? I am constantly asking where I posted the words you read. Why is that? I know what I posted is clear enough for everyone else to understand. What - is - your - problem? "In fact, since the crossover points and the output level is determined from the LCR values of the parts in the crossover, then any drift in value will affect them. This applies for any design, modern or not." For the most part, I agree. Anyone here not get that aleady? Anyone? Everyone got that, PG. Now what? Oh, yes. "Obviouly a higher-order design will be more suceptible to drift." I don't know why that would be obvious. The Xo's amount of roll out or in has nothing to do with the quality of the components used nor how much those components drift - even when brand new! That's what should be obvious. How much does an inductor drift over time, PG? I don't know what point you are trying to make regarding the Solen caps other than, as I said, today they are not generally considered to be "better quality" parts. But your concept of what to expect in a $500 per pair speaker is as misguided as your concept of the retail mark up of speakers. Where did you come up with either idea? And how many capacitors of any value would it require to get to $100 worth of caps in a crossover? Where do you get these ideas? Doesn't your @ss get tired of having stuff pulled out of it all the time just so you can breath? There is nothing that needs to be said about your last comment, PG, other than; are you done now? While ed contends I make every thread about myself, you make every thread about me. You literally cannot post an idea without bringing me into your thoughts. Even when I agree with you, you accuse me of dastardly deeds. I hate to be so uncivil toward you, PG, but you have some serious problems. You've restated your case. Of which, I think we all got it the first time. It ain't that hard to grasp. You've made it plain you are not about to be civil. You and I had agreed to avoid one another since even my giving you a compliment is taken by you to be an insult. You seem to have broken our agreement to avoid one another by making your distaste evident. If you are done, and I hope you are, I would guess most folks would be happy to stop reading your rants. I would. Please, if you have nothing else which will further this thread, rant somewhere else. If you wish to make another point, please try to do so without involving me in your post. . . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9029 Registered: May-04 | . "Of course if you are good at soldering, you should already know that no audible improvement is possible by going from good wire to bigger wire." Why would one skill indicate the other to be true? . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1777 Registered: Feb-04 | I never mentioned you owned Klipschorns. No you did a great job describing the speaker I own. It wasn't relevant. I DIDN'T!!! Also, in PG's case, his speakers... WHERE DID I SAY THAT? WHERE, PG? POINT IT OUT! WHERE? YOU ARE TRYING TO PUT WORDS WHERE THEY NEVER EXISTED AND I AM GETTING QUITE TIRED OF YOUR INSANITY! Also, in PG's case, his speakers utilized the acoustic roll off of the horn loaded drivers in conjunction with the Xo components. This will make the function of the Xo less critical to the final sound than would the same changes made to dynamic drivers in a conventional speaker system. The beneficial results PG acquired after changing Xo components might not be found in any other speaker designed within the last fifteen to twenty years. His speakers are a rather rare case when compared to home audio speakers from past decades. The rest of your post is too long-winded blah blah for me to read it. Way above my pay scale, like you like to say. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1778 Registered: Feb-04 | uhh..nuck over here... Didn't like my advice about a hot iron and thick wire? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1779 Registered: Feb-04 | Why would one skill indicate the other to be true? I didn't write it. Perhaps you should take your dry wit over to the Klipsch forum and find out. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3872 Registered: Dec-04 | The Xo's amount of roll out or in has nothing to do with the quality of the components used nor how much those components drift Is the roll quality and rate only determined by sheer numbers, non-detrimentid by the scaled to frequency response of a driver? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3875 Registered: Dec-04 | Peter, big wire and a hot iron are well known to me. I be looking for better wire than the Liberty 14gbi-wire that I am running. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9031 Registered: May-04 | . Peter, you are an egocentric idiot! What I posted was trying to make a twenty five year old speaker relevant to the discussion. That you can take it any other way is beyond my comprehension. Why are you so f'ing sensitive about what I think about your speakers? I couldn't care less what you own. Please drop this persecution complex you want to drag all over the floor. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9032 Registered: May-04 | . Roll quality? What's roll quality? Numbers? Scaled to frequency response? Sorry, try again. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3876 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan says The Xo's amount of roll out or in has nothing to do with the quality of the components used nor how much those components drift Is the roll-off or roll-in independant of the load and counter electromotive force then? The CEMF(dc motor term, sorry), does not effect the roll rates as determined by the XO and load coils and associated wiring? Keep it simple, please. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 97 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, I believe it is logical that engineers will try different caps, wires, etc. in search of an "overall" quality product that will work with most amps in most room conditions. This compromise means that you kit may be better suited than most for how the speaker is configured just as easily as it could be poorly suited for how the speaker is configured. I know when I work on my system I note pluses and minuses of speaker placement, interconnects, whatever. I am thinking that if you were able to get in contact with the engineering group you may find that there may be ideal wire thickness, particular caps, whatever, that would work best with you specific situation, i.e. amp, speaker wire, cables, room conditions. They also may tell you the best speaker cables, amp, etc for your speakers. What do you have to lose in trying to find out? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9033 Registered: May-04 | . If you're asking whether the inductance of the voice coils should be taken into account, yes, usually they should depending on the driver. This would be important for someone who listens at a relatively high SPL for long periods of time. The problem being the rise in inductance is not constant and you are guesstimating what you want to end up with. You will take into account any mechanical roll out or in which occurs in a driver, if you are operating the driver close to it's limits. Otherwise, a woofer (or other driver) which is rolled out a few octaves before its mechanical roll off occurs would already be down in level sufficiently to not be much concern. (First order Xo's have problems in this area since the roll out is only -6db per octave. The driver can reach it's limits before it is down sufficiently to not cause problems with the next driver up or down. This would be a reason to use two cascaded second order Xo's.) Same with other drivers depending on the response of the driver and the rate of the Xo. If the counter electromotive force means back EMF, then that is more a function of the amplifier's NFB circuit. Though bi-wiring can help in this situation as we've discussed before. Do you take the "load" of the driver into account when working with the Xo? Yes. Though I'm not sure that's really what you asked. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9034 Registered: May-04 | . How about this? Have you considered completely doing away with the passive Xo's in your current speakers? How about replacing them with active units with variable Xo's points? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3878 Registered: Dec-04 | These drivers in the speakers may , or may not,'cascade', the 2x6.5 drivers operate about a half octave out of step(loose terms), but servo very similarly to my ear and eye. These speakers are driven very close to their limits, or were, not so much now, with a wimpy amp. The XO's for the bass units are 3'rd order(Tim had me check) and the highs are 1'st. I like the 3'rd, more control, but the bass is still unruly. The drivers wave like a TT is being played, thus the Q about caps. Keep in mind, this is at higher levels, and with a less than ideal amp. Merci |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9036 Registered: May-04 | . When I said "close to its limits", I meant in terms of frequency response. Taking a low frequency driver which behaves poorly above 5kHz and running it up to 2500Hz with a first order Xo at that frequency will place the woofer only -6dB down at 5kHz (if no mechanical roll off is incorporated into the driver's design). The same would be true if the tweeter in a two way system had a spec'd limit of 2500Hz and you ran it to that frequency and then applied a first order Xo. This would be considered running the driver too close to or even beyond its limits as the irregularities of the driver's frequency response and increased distortion products will intrude on the signal at any volume level. This is not the same as running the drivers at their physical limits as far as SPL are concerned, and changing the amplifier will not alter this problem. Why do the drivers modulate at a low frequency? . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9037 Registered: May-04 | . Also, I referred to cascaded second order Xo's which will combine to form a fourth order design. Since the higher order Xo's have increasing phase shift, this cascaded design is used to minimize the problem and maintain decent pulse response. Tim has used this technique on Emma, if I remember correctly. Usually when two drivers of the same size are used and they do not cover the same frequency bandwidth from top to bottom, the Xo's are not cascaded second order since the issue of phase shift wouldn't be of any real concern in this area. Typically, in a 2.5 way speaker, one low frequency driver is merely rolled off in the lower frequency range when compared to the second driver which covers a wider area. They both cross to the tweeter at the same point. How fast the .5 driver rolls out is up to the designer, but a first or second order roll off is typical. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3882 Registered: Dec-04 | Active XO's do hold a lot of interest, Jan. I like the fiddlin' appeal and possibly the appearance as well(yes that does matter to me somewhat), but I know thing none about them. Not make, style or function(never stopped me before). I will bone up on the active XO ASAP. Maybe a tip on make/brand/type? Maybe Tim will stop by? Anybody else with active XO experience? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1781 Registered: Feb-04 | Peter, you are an egocentric idiot! I least I don't think wire inductance and capacitance is generally designed into crossovers. When I look at circuit designs, they don't generally include values for those next to the lines connecting real components. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9038 Registered: May-04 | . Brilliant, pg, just brilliant! Move on, little man! . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3890 Registered: Dec-04 | Agreed, PG, they are not usually spec'd. They certainly matter, agreed again, but not normally spec'd. Much like speaker leads, not spec'd, usually. No doubt they matter, though. It is the details belying devils, yet to be tripped upon. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9039 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.rane.com/ac24.html Put "active crossover" into a search engine and wade through the junk for car stereo. I just purchased a Nady two way unit for $59 to use as as a subwoofer Xo. Active crossovers are generally regarded as the best approach to filter devices for loudspeakers since they eliminate many of the basic problems which plague passive designs. http://www.nadywireless.com/products/product_pgs/cx_pg1.html . |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 360 Registered: Dec-05 | So which wire is best for subs? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1782 Registered: Feb-04 | Funny Michael! Why anyone would come to any place where they find someone they dislike so much is beyond me. Because the forum doesn't revolve around you? I'll give you a break (and the last reply) since I'm leaving town for a few days. You can say all the silly things you want and I won't be here to point them out. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9041 Registered: May-04 | . goodbye pg you'll be missed |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9044 Registered: May-04 | . Of course, maybe I'll develop an ingrown toenail to remind me of you while you're away. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 757 Registered: Nov-05 | Careful, sometimes we get what we wish for. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3891 Registered: Dec-04 | hehehe |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9045 Registered: May-04 | . Then I have a wish. Maybe it will come to pass. |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 367 Registered: Dec-05 | Could be worse, it could be an ingrown nose hair... yuck. |
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