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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi, I have an A21SE, which up to now has been happily driving a pair of B&W 603 (S1) speakers, though these really are the weak link in my current setup. Today I had a speaker demo at my local dealer and absolutely loved the B&W 804S. I'm very tempetd to buy a pair but have heard it said that they are a difficult load for an amp to drive and given that the A21SE is only rated at 35wpc I am a little concerned that I may run into trouble with this pairing. As it happens the dealers A21SE seemed to have no trouble with the 804's but we never really pushed the volume up that far (about 9 o'clock on the dial). I'd be grateful for any comments/advice, especially from those who have experience of this combo or similar. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3503 Registered: Feb-05 | Take some of your music to the dealer and push that volume up to levels that realistically represent how you listen to music at home. If it then satisfies ask the dealer about their return policy and take them home for a demo. I've heard that Sugden amp drive flagship speakers from a couple of hi end lines with ease and to wall shaking volumes (louder than I was comfortable with). That amp sounds great and if it turns out to be agood match for the 804's you should have an enviable setup. Good luck! |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 244 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi David, great advice from AZ. I just wanted to add that the A21se is a lovely amp. I have much respect for Sugden, they tend to design their products 'right first time' hence they are not changing their product line-up every 10 minutes. I like that... cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 245 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi David, just did a quick check, from the B&W web-site the 804S: Sensitivity 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m) Normal Impedance 8 ohms (minimum 3.0 ohms) Looks fairly efficient, and not a real 'back-breaker' of a load. I don't have 'home-use' experience of this speaker, but have listened to both the 700 and 800 (Nautilus) series countless times at a hifi dealership. It has been my experience that B&W's are electrically speaking generally very efficient speakers, but they tend to be ruthlessly revealing of components upstream. This is especially true with the 800 series, these speakers have a definite analytical bias, that is not to say that they cannot make music. Follow AZ's advice, but I think you'll find that the 804S is more fussy about the quality of wattage, as opposed to sheer numbers of watts. And your A21se definitely has the required level of quality, and then some!!! ( I would be very surprised if this pairing could not generate the levels needed for 99% of domestic setups.) cheers Rav |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 246 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi David, just did a quick check, from the B&W web-site the 804S: Sensitivity 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m) Normal Impedance 8 ohms (minimum 3.0 ohms) Looks fairly efficient, and not a real 'back-breaker' of a load. I don't have 'home-use' experience of this speaker, but have listened to both the 700 and 800 (Nautilus) series countless times at a hifi dealership. (I don't know the 804S, but I do know the 800, 801, 805S and the older 805-signature, also the 705 and the 703.) It has been my experience that B&W's are electrically speaking generally very efficient speakers, but they tend to be ruthlessly revealing of components upstream. This is especially true with the 800 series, these speakers have a definite analytical bias, that is not to say that they cannot make music. Follow AZ's advice, but I think you'll find that the 804S is more fussy about the quality of wattage, as opposed to sheer numbers of watts. And your A21se definitely has the required level of quality, and then some!!! ( I would be very surprised if this pairing could not generate the levels needed for 99% of domestic setups.) cheers Rav P.S. just curious what are you using as a source? It'll need to be good to keep you happy with the A21se and 804S combo... |
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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Rav & AZ. Thanks for your replies. AZ, I will definitely take your advice, though the volume that the dem was conducted at was pretty similar to how I have it set at home...though sometimes, when the mood takes, I do like to 'raise the stakes' a little! Rav, you've reassured me considerably and to be honest everything sounded just fine (very fine) at the dem. As regards source components, I recently upgraded to a new Naim CDX2 (still running-in) and, of late, I seem to have rediscovered vinyl, via a stock Rega Planar 3/RB300/Elys deck. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 249 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi David, apologies for my repeated post, I was trying to edit my post and hit the wrong button. Wow, Naim CDX2, that is some very impressive equipment you have. I don't have any experience of contemporary Naim gear, but I have read all the glowing reviews. The Planar 3 is of course a solid perfomer, and buys you into a great franchise, of mods, tweaks, upgrades particularly for your tonearm. Again, just purely for my curiosity what are you using for a phono stage, do Sugden make a card that fits inside the A21se, or are you using something external? Again I expect to be totally wow'd. cheers Rav |
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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Rav, I listened many times to Arcam, Linn & Naim CDP's and was initially looking to spend approx £1k less than I actually did. But, I couldn't find anything in those ranges, other than the CDX2, that could combine all the qualities that I value...so that was that. As for phono stages, I just grabbed something cheap and readily available when I first got the A21SE, as I was playing very little vinyl at that time. This job was performed admirably by a Cambridge Audio 640C, which really does represent amazing value for money. However, I have since upgraded to Sugden's own 'Stage Two'. I did this without auditioning anything else, as the Stage Two was designed to work with the A21SE and I have that much faith in Sugden that I just didn't feel I needed to look elsewhere. Though the 640C sounded surprisingly good (given its price), the Stage Two has actually resulted in an improvement in all areas. The first thing that hit me was an increase in the weight and solidity of the sound. Further listening and some A-B'ing with the 640C also revealed bass that reaches a little lower and more detail/separation at the top end. Having said all that, there is certainly nothing offensive about the 640C - if I hadn't tried the Stage Two I could easily have lived with it! http://www.sugdenaudio.com/range/overview3.htm |
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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Actually Rav, along with my renewed interest in vinyl I have been wondering what would represent a real upgrade from my Rega 3. I suspect my dealer would suggest some sort of Linn LP12 configuration, which I've just noticed that you have. I know you consider the CDX2 to be impressive, but I think you certainly have something equally (if not more) impressive there. I may have to come back to you for some more advice when my credit card is fully recovered! |
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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-06 | Can't work out how to edit my posts on this message board - but I meant Cambridge Audio 640P, not 640C when I was talking about phono stages |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 251 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi David, thanks for the link, the 'Stage Two' sounds impressive, in particular -all discrete circuitry -so not affected by the blight of all modern audio equipment: op-amps!!! Also I am familiar with the 640P, this unit is more than respectable when you consider it's very affordable price. In terms of your down the track vinyl upgrade, I am sure there are lots of folks here who can give you some good pointers. All in good time I guess. Since you are based in the UK, I would think the way to go would be one of the Michell decks (Gyrodec / Orbe). These are much more modern than the LP12, and hold their setup much more consistently than the Linn. (But the LP12 could still be a good 2nd hand buy). Also there are the more expensive Rega decks, but I have a perhaps unfounded personal bias against the Rega's, in that they don't that offer that much acoustic isolation. With my Linn, I was always able to play it as loud as I liked without any problems at all. My LP12 is languishing in its shipping carton at present. I need to ressurect it, and I am considering buying a OL Silver tonearm, but first, before investing cash, I want to figure out if I can buy good quality vinyl of music that I actually like locally. If so, then I'll press ahead with the work on the LP12. best wishes, Rav |
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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi, just thought I'd add an update. I bought a pair of the B&W 804S's today and they sound great - even straight out of the box. After letting the speakers 'break-in' for a couple of hours at a reasonable volume I decided to 'crank it up' a bit on a CD with some quite heavy bass and there was no apparent sign of the Sugden starting to struggle. In fact the sound simply got louder, not harder or edgier at all, with the bass well controlled at all times. Maybe one day I'll upgrade to Sugden's Masterclass pre/power combo and find that the speakers do indeed work better with more watts, but I think that will be some way off as I'm more than happy with the sound now. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 745 Registered: Nov-05 | Congrats David. I think you'll find the speakers will get even better after a 'lot' more hours of break in. Beautiful speakers - I'm envious. Enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3507 Registered: Feb-05 | Congratulations David...you have much good listening ahead of you. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 253 Registered: Mar-06 | Ditto. I think you have a great system there David. cheers Rav |
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New member Username: DivadLondonUK Post Number: 9 Registered: Mar-06 | Cheers guys....now if only I had some money left to buy CD's with...! |
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New member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | If you are still contemplating a deck upgrade I would suggest you start by looking at the Rega P7, assumimg you like what the 3 does. Try and compare it to the Notts anna stuff as well, but as you are in London you have the Joys of Walrus to investigate. |