This is my second post on the board. I consider myself much more a music lover than a hifi enthusiast, but I really enjoy good and expressive hifi sound, alltough I have little and modest experience in that field.
I'm considering changing my speakers and I would like to hear your opinion on the dillema I have. For the last 5 years I owned B&W speakers (the low entry DM303) with Rotel RA-971 int.amp and I really like the way it sounded.
My appreciation for B&W felt down 3-4 months ago when I changed the 303's for DM 602 S3 which in my naive opinion where supposed to sound much better. Indeed they sounded better in the store but unfortunately not in my home. I've done all possible tweaks and positions, I've changed the stands, add some furniture in the room and etc ... but the 602's do not come near to the soundstage and the warm and pleasant sound the small and cheap 303's produced.
And now while I'm still trying really hard to like the 602's I started considering changing them. And this time I'm considering going one step higher and reward myself with some more serious speaker. My room is 4 x 6 meters and with my unfortunate "602 adventure" I learned that smaller monitor speakers would produce much better results in my home.
My dillema is: B&W CM1 vs Dynaudio Audience 42 or maybe 52 (though they are bit more expensive, but more or less all three fit in the same price category).
I will surely base my decision on my own ears but I would really appreciate your more experienced opinion on this, even more because I can only have the B&W's on home audit session but not the Dynaudio's.
And for the final information my preferences are: - 50% jazz, 30 % rock (including some harsh sounding music like Franz Ferdinand or even Ramstein), 20 % classical music. - I own a Project audio turntable and whenever possible I prefer vinyl much more than CD's (80% of the time I listen to vinyl) - I prefer warm and easy to listen sound with wide soundstage. I prefer tight and fast bass response (unlike the bass the 602's produce - slow and boomy - Due to financial difficulties the amp Rotel RA-971 will have to stay with the new speakers for some time in the future. - Due to my room configuration I can not provide more than 60-70 cm meters space from the side/corner walls.
Thank you very much in advance for your replies and advices.
I'm a true music lover and after my long working hours music is the only thing that relaxes me. But not with the 602's unfortunately.
Going by the size of your room I do not understand why the 602's displease you, although I agree we all hear differently. I also listen to a lot of jazz and find the 602's are terrific. Maybe they just don't pair well with the Rotel amp, but I have found with our NAD gear the 602's are dynamic, warm yet detailed, deep tight bass (not at all boomy) and smooth mids with a good wide soundstage and strong focus. Our room is app 7 X 8 mts but only using the long half for the listening area. One thing is the 602's do thrive on power and don't realise their true potential without a bit of volume. They do like heavy, solid stands and take a bit of running in. Do you use the long wall or short wall for your speaker set up? In the end, the Dyns or some other brand may be better suited to you - but your ears will need to hear things for themselves. Good luck.
My Rantz, thanks for your comments. To make a bit more accurate, I use the short wall for the speakers and my listening positions is somewhere in the middle of the room ( around 3-4 m from the speakers center ). Honestly I did noticed that I find the sound bit better if I listen from the far end of the room, at around 6 meters from the speakers. But you are right, we all hear differently and in my opinion psycho-acoustics has much more to do with psycho that acoustics I was in love with the 602's for several years and when I finally have them I'm dissapointed .. and believe me I tryed (still trying) really hard to like the sound but it just doesn't work for me... Thanks again.
I actually believe Rantz has correctly identified the problem you may be having with the 602s. I do believe that the 602s work better with NAD amplification than Rotel. I actually have both NAD and Rotel based systems in my home (one HT and one stereo for my music), and I also have the Dynaudio 42s which I use with my Rotel amp. In my opinion, the Dyns are a better combo with the Rotel than the B&Ws. More open and a bit smoother through the midrange. The Dyns are also a bit warmer sounding. I have found Rotel electronics to have a "cooler" sound than NAD. Same is true for the B&W speakers which I find to be rather "cool" sounding (other than the 303s, which are an incredible value for the money and much warmer sounding than the 600 series). To me, that presents a problem when you match relatively cool sounding components (amp and speakers). It can leave a system sounding less involving and not properly balanced. It does not mean any of the components are bad or not a quality piece of gear; rather, it is the system that is mis-matched. Since you feel you do not have the money to change your amp (a common problem, believe me!), I think you will be happier with a warmer sounding speaker and I believe the Dynaudios are a marvelous choice. I think you will find they would make a big improvement. I don't know what else is available in your area, but I would also suggest the Canadian made Paradigm and PSB speakers as worthy candidates.
Consider some accoustical treatment in your room. I'm not an expert so I can't recommend a specific solution, but your description of "it sounding better further back" may be an indication of bad accoustics.
I would recommend some self guided research into that field, and you may find some simple, inexpensive and not-too-ugly solutions. This may yield you much greater results than swapping speakers.
Being a music lover too and an amateaur where it comes to hifi equipment, I am in the process of furnishing my appartment and can not miss out on an expressive sound system in my living room.
This same room which measures approx 5 X 9 metres will be my open plan which will be also hosting my tv and home theatre surround system.
To avoid duplicating costs, other enthusiasts have suggested to install a Harmann Kardon 5.1 amp & surround speakers for my home theatre, however replace both front speakers with 2 B&W 601 or 602 s. In this way I can carefully listen to Pink Floyd's detail (using 2 front speakers) whilst enjoying my wine, without compromising the occasional movie.
The TV and hifi unit will be set on the 5 metre wall facing the 9 metre length.
My questions are the following:
a. Do the HK and the B&W go well together or should i consider another pair say Dynaudio etc...
b. what amp power and respective speakers power should I be looking at ...
Thanks in advance for all your recommendations guys.
Thank you very much for your advises. Geoff: You fully right and I'm also aware that my room is not an acoustic "heaven". But unfortunatelly there are not many things left to improve. Hawk: As you probably see I have the upgrade itch and most probably I will go with the Dyn's. Thanks for your comments, it means a lot because I rarely see any comments on the net on matching Rotel amp and Dyn's. In the same context I would like to ask if anybody has any impressions on Dynaudio Audience 52 SE ? I have my mind set on the 52's but I start considering 52's SE. The price difference is around 200 EUR, and I would really appreciate if somebody has any comments on the special edition. Is the 200 EUR difference really justifed ?
Zoran, Experiment and change your primary listening position. Room acoustics are most likely making your new & improved speakers sound worse, because they are, in fact, better speakers. Different speakers will have different good or bad acoustic spots within a room. For example, seating position A might be the sweet spot for speaker A but when you switch to speaker B, your old seating position A may no longer be ideal. It may be smack in the middle of a terrible combination null/peaks that was in a different spot (not directly on top of your primary seat) with the other speakers. By moving your seating, you should be able to find an alternative sweet spot.
Another comment is that sitting near the center of the room is a big acoustics no-no(as well as sitting against room boundaries/walls). The center of the room is where competing/conflicting reflections are clashing the worst(creating huge peaks & valleys in frequency response), and you'll want to move your seating away from the middle. Placing your primary seating either 1/3 of the way from the front or back wall should be close to ideal. Your room size will dictate which is the better of the two. In a long narrow room from front to back, you'll want to move your seating forward!! To get the best sound, you'll want to get as close as possible to the critical distance. (where the direct and reverberant sound energies are equal) Unfortunately in an untreated room, the critical distance is very close to your speakers. (Possibly even inside of 1.5-2m)
Every untreated room is flawed, and acoustic treatments are necessary to achieve reasonably accurate response in any room. If you care in the least about good sound, you should research room treatments to correct the deficiencies' inherent in every untreated room. You wont believe how much better your speakers will sound after hanging bass traps in corners, and acoustic panels at first reflection points. In many cases, people are quite shocked indeed at what their speakers are really capable of once their room Zoran, Experiment and change your primary listening position. Room acoustics are most likely making your new & improved speakers sound worse, because they are, in fact, better speakers. Different speakers will have different good or bad acoustic spots within a room. For example, seating position A might be the sweet spot for speaker A but when you switch to speaker B, your old seating position A may no longer be ideal. It may be smack in the middle of a terrible combination null/peaks that was in a different spot (not directly on top of your primary seat) with the other speakers. By moving your seating, you should be able to find an alternative sweet spot.
Another comment is that sitting near the center of the room is a big acoustics no-no(as well as sitting against room boundaries/walls). The center of the room is where competing/conflicting reflections are clashing the worst(creating huge peaks & valleys in frequency response), and you'll want to move your seating away from the middle. Placing your primary seating either 1/3 of the way from the front or back wall should be close to ideal. Your room size will dictate which is the better of the two. In a large room, you'll want to move your seating forward!! To get the best sound, you'll want to get as close as possible to the critical distance. (where the direct and reverberant sound energies are equal) Unfortunately in an untreated room, the critical distance is very close to your speakers. (Possibly even inside of 1.5-2m)
Every untreated room is flawed, and acoustic treatments are necessary to achieve reasonably accurate response in any room. If you care in the least about good sound, you should research room treatments to correct the deficiencies' inherent in every untreated room. You wont believe how much better your speakers will sound after hanging bass traps in corners, and acoustic panels at first reflection points. In many cases, people are quite shocked indeed at what their speakers are really capable of once their room Zoran, Experiment and change your primary listening position. Room acoustics are most likely making your new & improved speakers sound worse, because they are, in fact, better speakers. Different speakers will have different good or bad acoustic spots within a room. For example, seating position A might be the sweet spot for speaker A but when you switch to speaker B, your old seating position A may no longer be ideal. It may be smack in the middle of a terrible combination null/peaks that was in a different spot (not directly on top of your primary seat) with the other speakers. By moving your seating, you should be able to find an alternative sweet spot.
Another comment is that sitting near the center of the room is a big acoustics no-no(as well as sitting against room boundaries/walls). The center of the room is where competing/conflicting reflections are clashing the worst(creating huge peaks & valleys in frequency response), and you'll want to move your seating away from the middle. Placing your primary seating either 1/3 of the way from the front or back wall should be close to ideal. Your room size will dictate which is the better of the two. In a large room, you'll want to move your seating forward!! To get the best sound, you'll want to get as close as possible to the critical distance. (where the direct and reverberant sound energies are equal) Unfortunately in an untreated room, the critical distance is very close to your speakers. (Possibly even inside of 1.5-2m)
Every untreated room is flawed, and acoustic treatments are necessary to achieve reasonably accurate response in any room. If you care in the least about good sound, you should research room treatments to correct the deficiencies' inherent in every untreated room. You wont believe how much better your speakers will sound after hanging bass traps in corners, and acoustic panels at first reflection points. In many cases, people are quite shocked indeed at what their speakers are really capable of once their room deficiencies' have been corrected.
I'm a big fan of B&W. If your budget permits, try to audition the B&W 705. If it doesn't, I suggest you stay away from them, because you'd deeply regret not picking them rightaway, after listening... .
I already did. I auditioned 705's with Rotel 1062 which is more-less identical to 971 (my amp). I have to say that I was impressed by the level of details 705's produced. It is amazing, I was listening to some flute classical recordings and it seemed like I felt the air coming out of the flute. Really ! But, on the other hand the overall impression was a bit too bright and a bit too clinical and too precise and for my taste.It lacked dynamics and emotion that I feel with Dyn's. Beleive me, I'm also a big B&W fan, but my absolute favorite B&W its out of my financial reach. You may guess that is B&W 805s, which costs around 2500 EUR. And concering the budget Dyns Audience 52 SE are the same price as the 705's - 1100 EUR(at least where a live). Anyway tommorow I have scheduled another audition of the 705's just to confirm my feelings stated above. Or maybe I'll change my mind ? I'm not that much in a hurry but in the same time if I don't change something now, my wife will probably find some other target for my hard earned audio budget
Whether the 52SE is worth an extra 200euros I believe depends largely upon the size of your room and how lively the room is. Hard for me to diagnose that from here. But suffice to say that the 52SE is a larger version of the 42, so the sound is very comparable, but the 52SEs will go a bit lower in the bass and can handle a lot more power (generating a larger soudfield). I use my Dyn 42s in a small music listening room/study wher I keep my computer to go on this board while I listen to my tunes. It is approximately 3.5 meters by 4 meters, and has a 3 meter ceiling. The 42s handle that room easily. I previously used my Dyn 42s as part of a HT setup in my "Great Room" (approx. 6m x 4.2m with 5.4m ceilings). The 42s got a little lost in that size room, but the 52SEs could have worked pretty well in that size room. So you have to determine not if they are worth the extra 200euros, but whether the room requires them.
First I would like to thank you for all of your comments, and second I would like to share with you my excitement over the new set up I've made in the last two weeks:
I got an excellent (more than excellent deal) and I bought Dynaudio Focus 140 ! I can not explain my joy with this wonderfull boxes ! As you know from the above posts I own Rotel 971 MK2 amplifier (60wpc at 8ohms) and even with this amp I felt that I listen to music for the first time in my life.
I know from other posts that this Dyns are power hungry so I started looking for some new amp. The dealer that I have good relations with offered for homw audit Denon, Marantz or Rotel. (I have to mention that I'm way over my budget even without a new amp,, so I have to stick with something cheaper). I tryed Denon PMA-1500R...terrible ! I could've keep it for the weekend but I returned in the shop after one hour ! Than Marantz PM7001 ... again total dissapointment ... My Rotel plays way better (to my ears) than any of these amps. So I returned back the Marantz after a day .. Just for a try I took home Rotel 1062 ( knowing that it has the same power as my existing 971 - rated 90 wpc into 4 ohms for the Dyns), hooked it (out of the box brand new) and... SHOCK ! Suddenly I felt music , control, bass ( at least a level better than my older Rotel 971 ) I felt that amp has wuite good control over the Focus 140 and suddenly I felt that nothing is missing (at least to my taste). I still have it and I'm listening to it and I'm trying to find that something is missing but for me it sounds excellent, joyfull and I really can not stop the music playing. On monday I have to either return it or pay it ... knowing that Dyns desreve much better amp I have hard time buying the amp, but in the same time(FOR MY TASTE) this is by far the best sound I have ever heard. In my romm this sounds better than all budget systems I've heard and also (I know somebody will disagree) all expensive B&W based setups I've heard in the shops (even with McIntosh amplification).
What do you think about this ? Do you think it is possible that from such unexpected combination of amp and speakers one can get the sound he is looking for ?
Also, if I had a hat, I would take my hat off to Hawk, since he always seems to provide very helpful common sense and great advice.
For the amp, in your shoes, if you are happy with the 1062, I would go for it. I have very limited experience with Rotels, except to say when I heard the 1072 CD player, it took a long time to burn in. So if the 1062 sounds good now, it will perhaps get better (unless the demo unit lent to you is already fully 'burnt in').
