Partial but detailed analysis of AUDIOHOLICS reviews
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4397 Registered: Mar-05 | Just wanted to share this thread with you guys since I think the topic of the audio press's reliability or lack thereof has come up on this forum many times. If you go to post #142 there is a long and detailed analysis of Audioholics' review patterns in direct relation to their advertisers. I am wondering if they are going to complain to the AVS mods and get the thread deleted/closed. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1572 Registered: Sep-04 | So where's the link...? | |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4400 Registered: Mar-05 | woops! Silly me: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8162799#post8162799 Page 5, Post #142 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4401 Registered: Mar-05 | If the link doesn't work, here it is: ======== A. AUDIOHOLICS' advertisers I spent about 10 minutes constantly hitting the "Refresh" button on the Audioholics homepage to see the ad rotations. Perhaps there are more, but this is what I found: 1. Speakers/subs: AV123, Axiom, Hsu, Onix, RBH, SVS, Velodyne 2. Electronics: AV123, Denon, Yamaha 3. Cables/Interconnects: Blue Jeans Cable, DVI Cables, Impact Acoustics 4. Miscellaneous resellers & services: Projector People (Epson PJ), Sanyo PJ, Visualapex (Panasonic plasma, Panasonic AE-900U PJ), Henry Ott Consultants, Imaging Science Foundation - Total number of advertisers: 16 - Total number of advertisers with favorable reviews/articles/recommendations: 11 - Proportion of favorably mentioned advertisers: 11/16 = 69% B. AUDIOHOLICS' reviews of AVRs---coincidence? Since the only 2 receiver manufacturers that advertise are Denon and Yamaha (Yamaha actually enjoys TWO ads: a small box on the left side of the screen, and a large rectangular ad on the right side), I decided to peruse the archive of receiver articles/reviews first: http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/index.php Here's my count of multichannel AVRs (which excludes Pre-processors), please correct me if I have missed anything: - Total AVR articles/reviews: 24 - Total AVR articles/reviews about Yamaha and Denon products: 16 - Proportion of Yamaha/Denon writeups: 67%, or TWO-THIRDS Here's a more detailed breakdown of which models were reviewed, ratings they were given, pricepoint/category, and in a few cases how old the model is. Denon, 6 mid-level 3805 (4.75/5), high-level 4306 (4.75/5), top level 5803 (4.75/5), 5805 (5/5) Yamaha, 10 mid-level 2400 (4.75/5), 2500 (4.75), 2600 (4.75), high-level 4600 (4.5/5), top level V1 (9.5/10), Z1 (9/10), Z9 (5/5) Sony, 2 top level 9000ES vs. 4ES comparison HK, 1 entry-level HK130 (3.5/5g) Marantz, 1 SR-18, flagship circa 2000(4.5/5) Onkyo, 2 - DS989, flagship circa 2000 (no rating, and I don't know how this is even considered a review, it's just an advertising blurb and list of features/specs) - entry-level SR601 (4/5) Pioneer, 2 bottom entry level 516 (4/5), lower-mid level 815 (4/5) Out of curiousity, I also decided to take a look at their "2002 Receiver Hot Picks" article. Strangely, only 4 were listed, specifically from best to worst: Denon 4802, Onkyo 898, Sony 5ES, Onkyo 797. The Denon being ranked as the best. Coincidence? Why were these 4 receivers specifically chosen to be compared? Now, the choice of the receivers in those 24 reviews/articles is very curious indeed. Why aren't there more models by HK, Marantz, Onkyo or Pioneer? All of those companies are of comparable or greater size than Denon and Yamaha. Also, where are the Pioneer Elite, Outlaw, NAD and Rotel receivers? Where are the Panasonic SA-XR digitals and the Pioneer 1014/5/6, both widely considered outstanding bang-for-the-buck, price-defying receivers in all of the major audio forums and well within the same price range as the HK130 and Onkyo 601? If you were a newbie sent to the Audioholics website by Google, you might think that clearly the only AVRs worth having are the mid- to top-level Denons and Yamahas. Yet where are the reviews of other receivers in that $1K-$3K range by HK, Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Integra, etc.? Allow me to guess Audioholics' likely explanations: 1. We only review products we truly love and trust, which would only be Denon and Yamaha. Everything else just sucks. 2. We only review products that manufacturers send to us. So only Denon and Yamaha have enough money and care to send their products to Audioholics. 3. We pooled our infinite audio expertise together, built from decades of experience as hobbyists, technicians, and/or sales experience in the audio industry and decided that only Denon and Yamaha are the indisputable gods of the audio/HT world, along with a handful of other companies---and we decided that only THEY are worthy of advertising on our website, so we honored them by contacting them to offer them that opportunity. Ditto with all of our other advertisers: we pick the "best" products first, and THEN we go to those manufacturers and solicit their advertising...yeah, that's the ticket! C. AUDIOHOLICS' reviews of Source Players (DVD-A, SACD, CD, players & burners) More of the same as in section B, though not quite as bad. - Total number of reviews/articles: 28 - Number of reviews/articles on Denon/Yamaha products: 12 - Proportion of Denon/Yamaha products: 12/28 = 43%, or almost HALF D. AUDIOHOLICS' Recommended HT Systems Guide This is where it gets REALLY bad! These recommended systems are basically a who's who of Audioholics' advertisers. - Number of Systems recommended: 6 - Total number of relevant products recommended: 44* (NOTE: "relevant" products = only products in the 3 major advertiser categories were included---Speakers/Subs, Electronics, Cables/Interconnects. Products from categories that were not advertised were excluded, such as RadioShack SPL meters, Avia DVDs, projector screens, A/V furniture, power conditioners, popcorn machine, etc.) - Number of ADVERTISERS' products recommended: 33 - Proportion of advertisers' products recommended: 33/44 = 75% - Please refer to the attached spreadsheet. E. CONCLUSION I'll let you, the reader, decide for yourself. I have only provided a few numbers directly taken from the Audioholics website. They might not be 100% precisely correct, as I confess to not being a professional auditor, but the bigger picture they convey is hard to shake. Also bear in mind that this analysis represents only a portion of the total body of articles/reviews on the website. I have not had the time or energy to scour the entire website and apply the same analytical methods to other review sections, though I would suspect that this is not an isolated trend. That said, I want to add that some of the Audioholics website does provide very helpful technical information---so I am not by any means slamming Audioholics as a whole. Contrary to what some on this thread have accused me of, I feel that for the most part Audioholics does have its redeeming features and hold no personal ill will towards its staff. My goal in this discussion is to simply provide a reality check for those people who seem to take their marketing-driven slogans a bit too literally. They are not EVIL INCARNATE (that might be Bose, LOL!) but they are hardly saints, for crying out loud. We all know what the bottom line is: Business is business, and bills have to be paid.
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 9332 Registered: Dec-03 | Someone from AVS forums actually took the time and made a study of this??? I thought I needed a life! Yeesh! And what a mind blowing conclusion, just to say that they are hardly saints. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4402 Registered: Mar-05 | yeah, you could say that morbid curiousity just got the better of me. Plus I had a little too much caffeine yesterday morning and had to work it off last night...lol The conclusion is meant to be generous and diplomatic. Don't know what got into me! ; ) |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1575 Registered: Sep-04 | How does it go? There are lies, damned lies and then there's statistics. Fact is, you could probably draw all sorts of conclusions from this kind of stuff. I'll bet the audioholics people are laughing their heads off because they hadn't realised there was a correlation themselves! But I'll bet they're loving the hits on the site... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4403 Registered: Mar-05 | If you consider 33/44 or 75% of the "recommended systems" products being by advertisers to be a coincidental "correlation"---I have some beachfront property on Mars you might want to invest in, Frank. : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8974 Registered: May-04 | . Ed - If I remember correctly, the question of the audio press' reliability seems to have been brought up on this forum many times by you. The responses are generally not thought provoking and the thread dies a timely death. Until one or two individuals try to restart a debate that has no better answer than a question about cables. I would have thought by now the attitude of the forum had been expressed. If you don't like what you read, stop reading the same stuff. . |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4404 Registered: Mar-05 | well Jan, you're mostly right. But until now a systematic analysis has never been done of any one site, as far as I know---it's all been hearsay. The numbers that I have posted are easily verifiable by anyone with a computer. This is not hearsay, speculation, or theory. I don't see any real debate cropping up over my findings. This is not to say of course that ALL audiophile websites are bogus. Not at all. As I wrote in that post, even Audioholics has many redeeming features and is a net plus for the online audio community. Those with reams of experience like you know well enough to read between the lines and take reviews with many grains of salt. Unfortunately there are some people who do not, and I have to say that Audioholics in particular tries very hard to present an image of impartiality, integrity, and no-nonsense, iconoclastic consumer advocacy---as evidenced by their lofty motto, "Pursuing the truth in Audio and Video." This is part of their overall business strategy and as such is not particularly objectionable, were it not that some people do seem to swallow it all too literally and could IMHO use a gentle reality check such as I have provided. btw, I am not the ONLY person to have brought up this topic on this forum. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4405 Registered: Mar-05 | well, just as I expected: Audioholics has gotten AVS to close the thread. I have replied to the last 2 postings, one by Gene DelaSalla of Audioholics, here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showthread.php?p=2936234&posted=1#post293623 4 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4406 Registered: Mar-05 | aww what the hell, here's some extra insurance in case the long tentacles of Audioholics reaches over to the hometheaterforum.com and gets that thread closed or deleted too: ========== Just for the record, here are my replies to Gene DelaSalla's reply and to Nick250's post, which AVS prevented me from posting at the last minute: Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala [quote] Amazing someone finds the time to expend so much misguided energy on a conspiracy theory like this while at the same time doing such a poor job of presenting all of the facts. First off you missed a whole bunch of advertisers, though we don't have nearly as much as any of the print magazines such as Sound & Vision, or HT Magazine, NOR do we have nearly the # of advertisers as other online sites such as AVREV.com, Soundstage or others. By your logic no publication with advertisers should be trusted. I guess you should just rely on Consumer Reports for A/V info. They do great 1 or 2 paragraph non tech reviews of equipment that I am sure will satisfy your needs since you don't have much technical capabilities and an obvious short attention span. Your spread sheet sells an interesting story but you fail to include many of the other manufacturers we included in these guides that don't advertise with us such as: Furman Sound, RTI Remotes, APC AV, Berkline, Continental Seating, SpeakerCraft, Rotel, Russsound, Panasonic, and others. You also fail to mention that we only recommend products we have direct experience with via formal reviews and/or personal hands on experience at trade shows or professional installations. You also fail to mention that we offer many alternatives in each category from the likes of Marantz, Pioneer, Rotel, etc. It's nice that you think you can fully assess our site with over 7 years of content in a matter of 10 minutes. One wonders if you apply the same level of thoroughness in your day job. One also wonders if you perhaps work for a competing online or print magazine whose sole purpose here is to fabricate a conspiracy theory against us to push your own agenda. As far as I am concerned you are as much a sockpuppet for a competing online or print magazine as we are scrupulous in our intentions of providing a useful and educational service to this industry. I enjoy a good conspiracy theory just as you do so perhaps we can both play this game together. I bet you are also into the conspiracy theories about the Moon Landing Hoax and the 9/11 Scandal. Entertaining to say the least but one wonders why you spend so much time creating spreadsheets and statistics against us if you're NOT a shill in the industry with a personal vendetta against us.[quote] Well, it's obvious that your reading skills leave a little to be desired. I'll excuse that because as you have stated elsewhere (see this Ascend thread, also closed after some Bose-like veiled threats from Audioholics on Page 7 starting with post #64: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1867&page=7&pp=10) you are an awfully busy person running such a huge and vital website as Audioholics. Here, let me restate some of my points in the analysis you quoted: 1. I said this was only a PARTIAL analysis (duh, it's in the thread title for God's sake) as I have not had the time to scour your entire website. When I do, I will be sure to post another similar analysis. 2. My spreadsheet specifically includes only "relevant" products, which it clearly defines as being the same kind of products that your advertisers sell. Why on earth would I want to add the plush HT armchairs and popcorn machine that one of your "recommended systems" frivolously includes in the tally? The sole purpose of the analysis was to see if your reviews and recs covered the full range of industry products...or MAINLY industry products whose manufacturers advertise in your website. For example, if one of your advertisers was Popcorn Machine Company X yet you posted a favorable review of Popcorn Machine Y or recommended Popcorn Machine Y in one of your "recommended systems"---now that would be remarkable wouldn't it? 3. I never claimed to present my analysis of a small part of your website as being viewed in comparison with OTHER websites or magazines. I was only looking at YOUR website because a number of posters on this thread have challenged me to come up with some substantiation of my original (and admittedly inflammatory) unflattering remarks about Audioholics' credibility. So why are you brining this up? Sounds like the classic "well I might do A,B, or C but just look at how much Tom Dick and Harry also do A, B, or C!" BTW, you accuse me of being a paranoid conspiracy theorist from the first line of your post, then in the last line wondering if I am a shill working for a "competeing online/print magazine"---LOL that is priceless! Attacking not my analysis or methods but my personal character...yes that's very mature and classy isn't it? Pretty much on par with all of your staff and supporters' responses on this thread so far, sad to say. SURELY you can do better. Post back with some actual links and verifiable numbers, rather than this childish tirade and then we can actually have a conversation. And lastly, I'm surprised that nobody has ever done what I did before. It was hardly rocket science. Your website is pretty much an open book in terms of linkages between review pattersn and advertisers. I mean, 75% of the "Recommended Systems" products being from your advertisers??? You go and review (relatively fairly) say a dozen high-end HT separates from non-advertisers, yet the only power source you recommend even for your $25K and $75K systems are the Denon 4805 and 5805? LOL that's a hoot and a holler all right. ========= Originally Posted by Nick250 [quote] Like Audioholics or not, why this endless repetition of saying the same thing over and over and over again? Really odd.[quote] Because now there are concrete numbers and names to talk about, rather than speculation and hearsay. If my numbers and analysis are skewed, I totally welcome the opportunity to be corrected---preferably without the pathetic ad hominem attacks that the Audioholics staff and supporters have been consistently dishing out, in the absence of precisely the type of rigorous empirical evidence or reasoned argumentation that their website claims to be based upon. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4407 Registered: Mar-05 | anybody wanna place bets on how soon Audioholics' tentacles will reach this forum and have this thread closed or deleted? LOL |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 110 Registered: Apr-06 | Within six hours. I think you ticked off Gene there Eddie. | |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8975 Registered: May-04 | . Ed- I repeat, "If you don't like what you read, stop reading the same stuff." I have become absolutely lost in the discussion of numbers and hard facts. OK, I admit I'm not interested enough to actually read any of the stuff you've quoted. But still, it "skims" like a bunch of hooey from everyone concerned. All this does seem to indicate an age old consipracy theory that doesn't need much discussion. There is no conspiracy between advertisers and reviewers and retailers. Whatever gets put in print should make it obvious where any one editor's bias exists. This just seems a non-issue that is being driven into the ground to prove a nonexistent point. What is your point, anyway, ed? . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 111 Registered: Apr-06 | The point is that Audioholics is run by very bad men. Either that or: Audioholics reviews are subject to the same biases as every other "professional" review out there. | |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 52 Registered: Mar-06 | The numbers are fun, and they dont seem to have been disputed! | |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4408 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, I can't help but chuckle at your advice: ""If you don't like what you read, stop reading the same stuff." Ever thought of applying that to your own half-reading of THIS thread? You ask what my point is. I've already told you, and will again: an empiricial analysis. This is not a conspiracy theory. This is some very elementary counting of reviews and advertisers. If you are not up to reading and thinking about what I have posted, why bother yourself with all this tiresome naysaying? I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Gene DelaSala: if you find fault with my methodology, have at it. I welcome the opportunity to be corrected. Just don't be so lazy as to cop out into glib accusations of conspiracy paranoia. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4409 Registered: Mar-05 | "Within six hours. I think you ticked off Gene there Eddie." Afaid so, Stephen. I'm hoping that this thread might survive a little longer in these parts, since Audioholics does have stuff posted in hometheaterforum.com so there's obviously some relationship there. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 69 Registered: May-06 | Mr. Ed, I read Jan's point as being that this is not furthering anything and to keep belaboring it is analogous to beating on a dead horse. Get it; "Mr. Ed" / "Dead horse"? Sorry, do not mistake my god awful bad humor as bashing, it's just that Jan is most informative and makes as much sense to me as anyone on these forums. Mike |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 112 Registered: Apr-06 | I know Gene has posted a few articles here as well; at least I've noted some input in the cables section. For their part, Audioholics does put out a number of informative technical articles which I've found insightful at a minimum. As for their reviews, I can't say they provide all the information I would like to see (impedance curves, etc), but they do at least reassure me that the items they review are reasonably well built if nothing else. As far as sound goes, everybody knows there is no substitute for listening with your own ears. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8977 Registered: May-04 | . "I can't help but chuckle at your advice: ""If you don't like what you read, stop reading the same stuff." Ever thought of applying that to your own half-reading of THIS thread?" I don't know what you mean by that, ed. I did stop reading. It's boring. My point is why keep bringing this up? And on this forum when the issue doesn't pertain to this forum. Were you mad that someone didn't get to read your rebuttal? Ok, some of us did. This now falls in the category of someone telling us one channel is out on their system. Or the lights don't come on. OK. Now what? You have to fix it yourself. I do think believing the long arm of another forum will reach over here is a bit paranoid. Not that long ago everyone was complaining about the lack of censorship on eCoustics. From hanging out on a few other forums, I would say this one doesn't work like the others. There's not much censorship of intellectual content as long as it doesn't cross a certain line of offense. Continually going back to this topic however, seems to represent a desire to do nothing except bash reviewers and magazines. That's like bashing a politician. We've been here before and its easy pickings. What's the point? None. There is no further point to be made. As someone up top suggested, there is no need for statistics or hearsay. Get a life. If you don't trust reviews, don't support the site or magazine and it just might go away. If it stays, what's it to you? There are hardly any reviews which say anything that important in the first place. Some of us read the reviews for reasons other than wanting to know whether Joe Schmoe liked a product. We like to know the height, width, depth and weight of a speaker. If you really need someone else to tell you what you're going to like, then bashing reviewers makes no sense. If you are so insecure you have to have someone else validate the product you own, then bashing reviewers makes no sense. You probably bought the thing because someone else suggested it was a good unit. Someone talked you into it. Probably a salesperson, So, what next? Maybe it's because I have "reams of experience" but I don't much care what someone else thinks about the components I own or the ones I consider buying. That type of experience shouldn't be hard to come by. Just stop reading junk and buying junk. Listen and learn. It's not a matter of spending lots of money for equipment. It comes down to thinking for yourself and listening with an ear that knows what it should be hearing. That, however, gets us back to not comparing one product to another product and no one wants to hear my opinions on that issue again. So, I'll just drop the whole thing and unless someone has a question for me, at this point we can all forget I ever showed up here. . |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 356 Registered: Dec-05 | Homer: Oh Kent, statisitics can be made to prove anything, 45% of all people know that. Kent: Touche. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4410 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL Jan, why don't you just lift your right leg and peee all over this forum, to mark your imagined territory? I see you're back into your habitual and delusional role of self-appointed forum gatekeeper and moderator. Really Jan---there actually are (gasp!) OTHER people who use this forum besides Jan Vigne, who can make up their own minds about what they do or do not wish to read about. If no one has any interest at all in this thread then it will quickly die a natural death...GASP!...and it will do so with or without Jan Vigne's imperial blessings! What a concept, huh? Yes my friend, the world actually turns by itself, INDEPENDENT of what one little man in Dallas thinks about it! Really, it does! By Jove, I've seen it! I think if you ask a few other people, they'll tell you that they've seen it turn by itself too! Good God man, have you truly no idea of the sheer magnitude of your own absurdity? ROTFL! Here you are, telling me to "get a life" while indulging in more of these petty territorial shticks. There is nothing wrong with you admitting that you are simply too lazy or thick to read through a few simple numbers instead of jumping into one of your usual self-satisfied and self-important pronouncements while claiming to be the vox populi with every royal "we" you keep pulling out of your backside. You are by your own admission too lazy to actually read a long post (very ironic considering your regular, rambling book-length and pedantic postings) because it's more self-gratifying to leap to the conclusion that you've seen it all before and pat yourself on the back, another affirmation of your much-cherished role as the forum's alpha poodle. Well, leave it at that and gracefully "drop the whole thing" as you claim that you're willing to do. Kinda doubt you will, though. ; ) > I do think believing the long arm of another forum will reach over here is a bit paranoid. That's because you are unaware that a link to this original AVS thread was already deleted on the Ascend forum and that another thread on the Ascend forum that was also critical of Audioholics was also closed down after Audioholics staff began howling hysterically about it. http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=1867 (Page 7, post #64) Most likely you'll be too lazy to click on that link anyhow, I know. Let's hope you are right, that eCoustics doesn't have a dog in the fight and is immune to outside pressure. I tend to believe that it will stick around longer than the others too. Of course the Audioholics boys know that eCoustics has maybe 5% of the traffic that AVS has so they can easily afford to let it go. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4411 Registered: Mar-05 | Mike, what you and Jan are both missing is the fact that while this subject has indeed been discussed a number of times, it has always been in the form of unverifiable hearsay and speculation. This is the first time, AFAIK, that anyone has actually bothered to go and investigate these allegations in anything resembling a systematic manner and come up with some concrete numbers, which frankly are much worse than I had anticipated going into the project. I have been waiting for people to find fault in my methodology. None have yet, on 3 different forums as of this writing. |
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New member Username: Silversurfer2Post Number: 2 Registered: May-05 | I post over at Audioholics a bit, I admit that I do see bias there. It may not be harmful, but it is interesting because of their motto "Pursuing the Truth in Audio and Video". I just read the Ascend Forum thread and there is one very interesting question that should be addressed: [quote]Your "buy it" and product links go through banners and affiliate links, not directly to product page or discount pages. This means the "click throughs" are being tracked by Audioholics and the advertiser. Can you address the purpose of doing this?[/quote] I just checked, and that statement is correct. The seem to do this in product links that are related to advertisers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8978 Registered: May-04 | . Ed - You're being an @ss again. I think it's time for your pill and time to stop thinking any of this really matters. This audio forum you dislike so much writes about cheap hifi. Almost everything I've read on that site is worthless drivel. Most of the time eCoustics discusses cheap hifi. That's all it is, no more. If you're PO'd at some online magazine, there's no need to take it out on everyone you run into. You seem to think this is important enough to discuss one more time. Go ahead. Have a blast. Let's see what other people think about this now being exposed with "statistics". Probably the same as the last time this topic came up for discussion and it was still hearsay. Me? I'm off to discuss which subwoofer cable is the best. WhooHoo, what a life! . |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 728 Registered: Nov-05 | Well, leave it at that and gracefully "drop the whole thing" as you claim that you're willing to do. Kinda doubt you will, though. ; ) Edster, you're a seer!  |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4412 Registered: Mar-05 | As he has done in the large majority of his almost 9K posts, Jan always succeeds in making every thread he comes on, become a thread about Jan. It's like clockwork, sometimes. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4413 Registered: Mar-05 | silversurfer2, Yes that's one of a whole slew of very valid issues which none of the Audioholics staff have ever mustered enough cojones to address. Their response thus far has been to throw up a smokescreen of hysterical ad-hominem attacks instead, while pressuring forum mods to close or delete threads exactly as they have done many times on their own forum whenever someone dares question their practices. Very similar to how the Chinese government deals with pro-democracy or pro-Tibet dissent, LOL. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 73 Registered: May-06 | Ed, Faults with your process? I'll bite. How about statistically insignificant sampling provides for invalid results. You mention "partial but detailed" regarding what you submitted as analysis, when noting not having the time to scour the entire website. While I acknowledge you have done more work than apparently others have and it is a good start, you really have not done enough work to post data that is meaningful. Not that I give a hoot. Mike |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3493 Registered: Feb-05 | "Not that I give a hoot." Ditto.....who cares? |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 39 Registered: Jun-06 | I give a hoot. I spend time here because I assume that I get impartial perpectives from people that couldn't possibly be trying to sell me something. Consumer advocate groups exist (in other contexts) to expose misrepresentation. In cyberspace, there is no one. It's buyer beware. It's too bad, really. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3495 Registered: Feb-05 | It should always be "buyer beware". Audio gear is not a necessity it's a luxury. You should read audio reviews with the same skepticism that you read the newspaper. Educate yourself on the subject (audio or whatever) and you become better inoculated against misrepresentation. BTW Geoff, Audioholics is the website in question not ecoustics. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4415 Registered: Mar-05 | > How about statistically insignificant sampling provides for invalid results. What is or is not "statistically insignificant" or "invalid" seems entirely a matter of opinion here, unless you want to expand on the criteria for what you would consider to be "statisticaly significant." But oops, I forgot: you said you don't give a hoot, which is all fine and dandy by me. : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4416 Registered: Mar-05 | > Consumer advocate groups exist (in other contexts) to expose misrepresentation. In cyberspace, there is no one. It's buyer beware. It's too bad, really. Exactly! Which makes any site that has "Pursuing the truth in Audio and Video" as its motto deserving of much closer scrutiny than others, IMO. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 77 Registered: May-06 | Ed, I am not going to try and attempt a lesson on statistics on this site but I will try to help you to understand. So I have to ask you to trust me, read my posts, right or wrong, I put it out there however I see it. With the universe of data available and the its ratio to the number of reviews you counted, the resultant statistics you derived have a standard deviation that no one should accept as relative. Again you are on the right track with using statistics. Just make it relevant. Remember, you are the one who asked for someone to find flaws with your posting. The facts speak for themselves. If you need to understand this better do some research on sampling criteria, as it appears you have the time. And while I could care less about what bedfellows advertisers and reviewers are, I do enjoy the challenge of refuting your data. I agree with Geoff regarding trusting genuine experiences shared by fellow posters as opposed to reading periodicals or web review sites. Still the best experience is the listening you do on your own. The only reasons I could think of to read published reviews is to provide you with products and such to go listen to or gain your own experience with, or find out more information about, or to validate a decision you already made. So dude, if you are that hissed off at a particular site, only you know the reasons why. If you are truly trying to be objective with your data, then go the extra mile. Mike |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 9416 Registered: Dec-03 | Forget Audiholics Ed...do a study on Machina Dynamica. | |
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New member Username: RusinPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-06 | Edster, I appreciate your efforts to hold reviewers accountable. The degree to which the forces of marketing have infiltrated our culture is alarming to me. Even more alarming is that most folks don't seem to care. Electronic and print journalism have lost all objectivity. The line between objective reporting and editorials has been blurred beyond recogntion. Product placement and promotion dominate the evening news shows. Likewise there is a crisis brewing in the scientific community about the influence of money on how studies are funded, executed, and reported. Our medical system is on the verge of imploding, due in no small part to the power of marketing in shaping our priorities: the priority is not health care for the nation but profits for a few. Those adds for lipitor and viagra are the tip of the iceberg. Then there's the music industry - a disaster! And the effect of PAC's on politics - so long democracy, it's been good to know you! Granted, this is just stereo equipment, but I support anybody who has the energy to devote to ensuring accountablility. Whether Ed's study is statisticallly significant is irrelevant. It's asking a review web site to be accountable. The response from Audioholics on the Ascend web site was most revealing to me: defensive, arrogant, and agressive. It speaks volumes to me. I just assume that advertising dollars are an influence. But it makes it tough for a consumer looking for good information. We live in a time where you can't trust anyone claiming to be an objective source. Heck, we live in a time that doesn't even belive in an objective reality! I really apprecite Eddie's willingness to do the hard work of searching for good honest value. That's what it's about - that, and the music, of course! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4417 Registered: Mar-05 | Michael, so are you saying that I should simply expand the same counting methodology to the rest of the Audioholics site in order to get a wider sample? BTW, I decided to do this mini-analysis mainly because one particular poster on that now-closed AVS thread ("Adrian Mills") challenged me to expand on a few unflattering comments I made in passing about Audioholics. For a progression of events, refer to postings #83, 90, and 92 on that original AVS thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8162799#post8162799 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4418 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks, Jim! I pretty much agree with your macro-view of the ongoing corporatizing of virtually all aspects of our society. But be careful, your comments are sure to draw out some wingnuts who'll accuse you of being a pinko Commie to dare question the desirability of the global plutocracy! I was never under the illusion that my efforts will have any effect on how Audioholics or the larger audio press works---I was simply acting out of morbid curiousity and yes, I admit, the sheer pleasure of throwing a pie in their faces especially since one of their fanboys on the AVS thread challenged me to do so. |
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New member Username: RusinPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-06 | The world needs more pie throwers - even Commie pie throwers!!! | |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 40 Registered: Jun-06 | My only advice, Ed; take your time. I'm not a statistician but 10 minutes is not enough. 10 hours is not enough. You'd need to poll their ads over the same period that the publications span. It wouldn't be possible to get that information without the cooperation of Audioholics, which seems doubtful at this point. To AZ, perhaps I wasn't clear. What I meant was that, I cruised other forums but this one seems relatively impartial. I like it here. I'm more sceptical of others. If Edster finds this forum to be 'infiltrated' then I would be dissapointed... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4420 Registered: Mar-05 | I haven't found eCoustics to be "infiltrated"---not yet, in any case. : ) That could be due in large part to its miniscule traffic and number of users, compared to the likes of AVS which is definitely the big Kahuna of audio forums---and therefore is a much higher-value target for "infiltration." |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8983 Registered: May-04 | . " ... I was simply acting out of morbid curiousity and yes, I admit, the sheer pleasure of throwing a pie in their faces especially since one of their fanboys on the AVS thread challenged me to do so." And, therefore, you had a predetermined outcome for your "statistics" to prove to your benefit. That's not a very reliable way to gather an unbiased result. Somewhat like a Fox News poll. Have you considered your posts might have been deleted not because of what you threw in their faces but the manner in which you threw it? Most forums do not allow the sort of vitriol that passses for dialogue on eCoustics. . |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 43 Registered: Jun-06 | And to add to my suggestion, perhaps in retrospect you might have gotten a little further with some soft diplomacy instead of firing in a rocket. But, what's done is done. The topic here is thought prevoking just the same. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4423 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, how nice to see you again! I thought... ? ; ) It's all right, I knew you couldn't stay away for long. ("Welcome back Kotter" theme song begins in background...) In all seriousness, I did not have a "predetermined outcome" in mind, just what I'd call a "creeping suspicion." In fact I thought it was going to be a lot harder to dig up fishy stuff on Audioholics than it actually was. For example, I did not expect to find that 33 out of 44 recommended AVRs, speakers/subs, source players, and cables/interconnects in their "Our picks on what to buy" page would come directly from their advertisers. You would really think that they'd do a better job of covering their tracks, I mean that's just BLATANT, for Chrissakes. It's like hanging a giant neon sign! I'll grant you that yes a more diplomatic tone MIGHT have had a different effect. On the other hand, if you look at how the Audioholics staff responded on that Ascend thread to other posters who used very neutral and diplomatic language, you'd see that it doesn't seem to make much difference. If my tone was at times caustic I think it was in direct reaction to their reaction on that Ascend forum, which was just repulsive. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4424 Registered: Mar-05 | thank you Geoff, I'm glad someone around here also has some intellectual curiousity about this matter. Jan swears this topic has been beaten to death around here but I must not have found those threads or kept up with them much. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3497 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan is right the subject has been beaten to death here at ecoustics. That doesn't mean you shouldn't raise it but that perhaps you will understand when others care less than you do about it. | |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4425 Registered: Mar-05 | sure Art, I understand. Yet it puzzles me why anyone would stick around on a thread that they have asserted already (and repeatedly, ahem) holds zero interest for them. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8985 Registered: May-04 | . I never said I was going away for good, just that everyone could forget I had been here. How's it go ... "Well, it's obvious that your reading skills leave a little to be desired." (Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:29 pm) However, thanks for acknowledging who is to be the teacher in this affair. You may call me Kotter from now on, if you prefer. If I remember correctly, the proper lesson to be learned was always his to present. And, glad to see you've calmed down a bit. I think we all understand how "creeping suspicions" become predetermined outcomes when you've been "challenged" to prove your case. Face it, eddie, challenges are not your strong suit for contemplation and reflection. "Childish tirades" and "ad hominem attacks" not withstanding. (Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:29 pm It sure sounds like you had laid out your case before the challenge ever occurred. "For example, I did not expect to find that 33 out of 44 recommended AVRs, speakers/subs, source players, and cables/interconnects in their 'Our picks on what to buy' page would come directly from their advertisers." What exactly did you expect? The site reviews mainly mass market product. There are "X" number of products to be reviewed from "X" number of companies. There are "X" number of reviews a magazine can do in any time period. The magazine is going to review what they think will interest their readers. That doesn't imply a "neon sign" to me. Just a marketing department doing its job. Where would you have them advertise? What products would you have them review? You ask, "Why aren't there more models by HK, Marantz, Onkyo or Pioneer? All of those companies are of comparable or greater size than Denon and Yamaha. Also, where are the Pioneer Elite, Outlaw, NAD and Rotel receivers?" Possibly you should ask those companies before you draw any conclusions. Are they submitting products for review? I doubt most of those companies are submitting HT receivers to Stereophile. Consequently I haven't seen an ad for most of those companies' HT receivers in Stereophile or The Absolute Sound. Or, in Outdoor Photography for that matter. If you are a marketing person, you go where you get the reviews. Some companies are not concerned about reviews in certain magazines since they leave the selling up to the dealers and word of mouth advertising. They go to the magazines they think will do them the most good. And yet, after all that, as much as 30% of the recommended products come from non-advertisers. Check out any magazine, ed, and you will find most recommended products come from companies who advertise in the magazine. That proves nothing other than smart marketing. BMW advertises in Motor Trend. Nikon advertises in Outdoor Photography. Antinori places advertisements in Wine Spectator. These companies' products all get good reviews. Any company with a marketing budget will hit the ads heavy when recommended product issues come around. So far, I can't see you've proved anything, ed. If you're looking for faults in your "empirical" research, I think you've had several examples to which you've admitted. Do the companies give the writers and editors preferential treatment? Probably. And the point would be? Why not get a bit more incensed that the president of Diebold has Bush's picture on his wall? Or that Lockheed Martin throws big parties for U.S. Army brass? Get mad that lobbyists flew Tom DeLay and his cronies to Ireland to play golf. Get mad over something that matters, not this. Or, better yet, find a way to change the situation, if you find it that objectionable. Just blowing your top isn't getting anything done. And, by the way, "I am not the ONLY person to have brought up this topic on this forum." (Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:35 pm Then you should be able to retrieve the other threads. . |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8986 Registered: May-04 | . Those smiley faces crept in without my knowledge. I hate smiley faces! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8987 Registered: May-04 | . My point here, ed, is to do some actual work rather than spending ten minutes looking for something you had determined was there before you began. Read the reviews and see what has been said. Find out why some companies aren't represented by contacting the companies. Don't just jump to a conclusion after ten minutes on a caffiene high. And don't be surprised when your increasingly strident accusations get kicked off a forum. For the record, the long arm of Audioholics hasn't made it over here yet. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 117 Registered: Apr-06 | I guess I didn't win the pool :\ Dah well. | |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 81 Registered: May-06 | Ed, "so are you saying that I should simply expand the same counting methodology to the rest of the Audioholics site in order to get a wider sample? " Yes and no. It would be easier to have a tight focus, such as turntables costing over $1000 or HT integrateds under $1000. That way you would have a smaller universe and would not need to expend as much time in providing a valid sample base. One or two reports with supporting data could secure validity. What I found most interesting was your gobbledy gook commentary. Exposing a reviewer as a sham, or identifying how many times reviewer "Mr. Doe" was pompous versus relevant would be an enjoyable read. I think some reviewers are worth reading irrespective of the product. I like Atkinson and Dudley from Sterophile for instance. Speaking of shams, the way DellaSala responded, and his response being the only thing I know about him, did more to tarnish himself to me than anything you could document. In the end, the order of why I would make a purchase goes back to listening, trusted dealer recommendations, forum chatter, reviews, coin flip. The reasons are in most important to least important order... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8989 Registered: May-04 | . Ed - Try this, take ten minutes to give us some statistics on how many advertisers on Audioholics don't have a recommended product. If your theory holds true, there shouldn't be many advertisers who do not get preferential treatment. . |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4428 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan, One thing you've missed while again doing your habitually pedantic/grandstanding exhibition of your worldly audio-industry knowledge and resulting jadedness/cynicism, is the fact that my endeavor was not motivated by any particularly messianic or passionate moral agenda, but as I said before, basically sort of following through on what amounted to a dare by someone on the AVS thread. In short, it was taken on a whim and was never intended, nor pretended to be, any sort of rigorous professional audit---yet it still is, AFAIK, the only quasi-empirical analysis ever done on an audio website like that. In fact it was a very enjoyable exercise, though I will confess that it took much longer than I anticipated---about 10 minutes to write down all the names of the advertisers on Audioholics' current ad rotation, and several hours to browse through their actual reviews and recommendations to compile ratings and names/models/categories. As to me contacting Audioholics directly to ask them the questions you advise me to ask them, after reading their staff's responses to other (far more diplomatic) posters on the Ascend thread, I think that would be a Quixotic pursuit. You might as well go ask the Chinese government why they can't be a little nicer to the Tibetan people. BTW if the whole exercise had only taken me 10 minutes, believe me I would have gone through and done the same analysis to the rest of the website. But again, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you seem to think that's how long all this took---considering your hurried, half-@ssed and pre-conceived reading of my original post which you admitted during your first couple of postings on this thread. LOL it really does amuse me that you seem irresistibly drawn back to this thread and feel compelled to expend the time and energy for such long-winded postings on a topic that you keep insisting has been beaten to death many times over. What a life, indeed! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4429 Registered: Mar-05 | > think we all understand how "creeping suspicions" become predetermined outcomes when you've been "challenged" to prove your case. Face it, eddie, challenges are not your strong suit for contemplation and reflection. "Childish tirades" and "ad hominem attacks" not withstanding. (Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 01:29 pm:-) It sure sounds like you had laid out your case before the challenge ever occurred. LOL again Jan, your reading skills are spectacularly bad. That was posted long AFTER I had already written the analysis and it was describing the RESPONSES to that analysis, so how on earth does that show that I embarked on the analysis with a predetermined result in mind??? > What exactly did you expect? The site reviews mainly mass market product. There are "X" number of products to be reviewed from "X" number of companies. There are "X" number of reviews a magazine can do in any time period. The magazine is going to review what they think will interest their readers. LOL yeah right, so Audioholics somehow believes that all its readers want to read about are Denon and Yamaha's top-end receivers. Oh, and when the Bush administration gives Halliburton multi-billion dollar no-bid contracts, it's doing so because it thinks that's what our troops want, since obviously Dick Cheney's old employer are the only ones up to the job. Your apparent naivete, for someone who is constantly affecting a world-weary jadedness, is quite amusing. > That doesn't imply a "neon sign" to me. Just a marketing department doing its job. Where would you have them advertise? Where they already advertise---in the site's banner ads! Actual content of a site with the motto, "Pursuing the truth in Audio and Video" should not be infiltrated by advertisers. Bottom line is that Audioholics goes to great lengths to PRETEND to be objective/empirical (see all their technical gobbledygook specs and graphs) and no-nonsense (they love to congratulate themselves on criticizing exotic overpriced cables as the province of "snobby audiophiles"). Therefore it deserves to be held to the higher standards as befitting those pretensions. Do the other audio publications that you use to rationalize Audioholics' practices have the same hilariously inflated moral pretensions? I don't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong. > What products would you have them review? You ask, "Why aren't there more models by HK, Marantz, Onkyo or Pioneer? All of those companies are of comparable or greater size than Denon and Yamaha. Also, where are the Pioneer Elite, Outlaw, NAD and Rotel receivers?" Possibly you should ask those companies before you draw any conclusions. Are they submitting products for review? I doubt most of those companies are submitting HT receivers to Stereophile. Consequently I haven't seen an ad for most of those companies' HT receivers in Stereophile or The Absolute Sound. Or, in Outdoor Photography for that matter. If you are a marketing person, you go where you get the reviews. Some companies are not concerned about reviews in certain magazines since they leave the selling up to the dealers and word of mouth advertising. They go to the magazines they think will do them the most good. And yet, after all that, as much as 30% of the recommended products come from non-advertisers. Check out any magazine, ed, and you will find most recommended products come from companies who advertise in the magazine. That proves nothing other than smart marketing. BMW advertises in Motor Trend. Nikon advertises in Outdoor Photography. Antinori places advertisements in Wine Spectator. These companies' products all get good reviews. Any company with a marketing budget will hit the ads heavy when recommended product issues come around. So far, I can't see you've proved anything, ed. If you're looking for faults in your "empirical" research, I think you've had several examples to which you've admitted. Do the companies give the writers and editors preferential treatment? Probably. And the point would be? Why not get a bit more incensed that the president of Diebold has Bush's picture on his wall? Or that Lockheed Martin throws big parties for U.S. Army brass? Get mad that lobbyists flew Tom DeLay and his cronies to Ireland to play golf. Get mad over something that matters, not this. Jan, so much verbiage to make a point that is entirely prosaic: "this is the way the world works, Ed---get used to it." > Or, better yet, find a way to change the situation, if you find it that objectionable. Just blowing your top isn't getting anything done. LOL again your lackadaisical reading skills come to the fore. I have never implied that my analysis was intended to change Audioholics' operations, so this question of whether it "gets anything done" is completely moot. You thought I was "blowing my top" when writing that analysis? LOL! As I stated before, the analysis was an exercise in morbid curiousity, done on a whim and a dare...in other words, it was done (gasp!) for FUN!!! Yes, just plain simple FUN! Do you know what that 3-letter word actually means, Jan? Oh surely you do, especially with a glass of your favorite single malt and your McIntosh singing along, right? Sure ya do. > And, by the way, "I am not the ONLY person to have brought up this topic on this forum." (Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 12:35 pm:-) Then you should be able to retrieve the other threads. Why would I go to all the trouble? It's obvious that beating this allegedly dead horse yet AGAIN is *exactly* what the denizens of eCoustics are thirsting for, esp. one Jan Vigne who just can't seem to tear himself away from it no matter how hard he tries or says he will. : ) > For the record, the long arm of Audioholics hasn't made it over here yet. ah, finally: one indisputably valid point. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4430 Registered: Mar-05 | Michael, > Yes and no. It would be easier to have a tight focus, such as turntables costing over $1000 or HT integrateds under $1000. That way you would have a smaller universe and would not need to expend as much time in providing a valid sample base. One or two reports with supporting data could secure validity. well I kind of had that with the AVR review section, didn't I? It jumped out at me as the flagrant red flag in their review database, though it's entirely possible that it was not representative of the other sections. For instance their Pre-Pros reviews are not anywhere as advertiser-driven at all. > What I found most interesting was your gobbledy gook commentary. Again, like my larger analysis, that was also brought about by another poster on the AVS thread. But the actual article was admittedly an easy target, it was so awful. > Speaking of shams, the way DellaSala responded, and his response being the only thing I know about him, did more to tarnish himself to me than anything you could document. Yeah, that was fugly. Especially their responses on the Ascend forum thread. > In the end, the order of why I would make a purchase goes back to listening, trusted dealer recommendations, forum chatter, reviews, coin flip. The reasons are in most important to least important order... Totally agree. It's the clueless newbies who use Google or some search engine and get sent to Audioholics that I feel sorry for. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4431 Registered: Mar-05 | > Ed - Try this, take ten minutes to give us some statistics on how many advertisers on Audioholics don't have a recommended product. If your theory holds true, there shouldn't be many advertisers who do not get preferential treatment. Velodyne --- no Projector People (Epson PJ) --- no recs, no reviews...wow! Sanyo PJ --- no Visualapex (Panasonic plasma, Panasonic AE-900U PJ) --- no Henry Ott Consultants --- none Imaging Science Foundation --- none So basically out of 16 banner advertisers, 6 are not on the recommended list. Of those 6, only 2 are actual manufacturers, the other 4 are vendors and services. So another way of putting it would be, 2 out of 12 manufacturers who advertise are not on any of the recommended systems. 2/12 = 17% So to answer your query, no there are not "many advertisers who do not get preferential treatment." |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthThe woodlands Post Number: 78 Registered: Aug-05 | edster, nice selection of pretty words ! yet.... the same old idiot 4428 posts in 1 year and 4 months and who knows how many countless hours spent over the internet looking for garage sales with additional 20% off in search of nice deals on audio equipment lol....yeah, you sure have a great life....what a moron ! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4432 Registered: Mar-05 | ah yes, some people sure hold grudges a long time don't they? Welcome back, baby! Sorry Vader, I know I've been a little rough on you in the past...didn't know you'd carry that little grudge on for so long in that little head of yours. I was hoping that those wounds had finally healed and you were finally off those meds...awwwww, poor poor little Vader! Look, I'll make a deal with you: don't revert to your usual dull moronic self, and I won't kick your sorry @ss all over the place like I did all the other times, ok? ROTFL... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8990 Registered: May-04 | . You've convinced yourself you are correct. No one will change that opinion. Everyone else is wrong unless they agree with you. What are you, a US Vice President? Stop using words that don't exist in the original posts and stop making false arguments with non-sensical propositions. Mostly, stop with the personal attacks, ed. You decry them when they come from someone else and yet you relish in them when you make them. I've done nothing here other than disagree with you and suggest what you are claiming as irrefutable proof of some conspiracy is what? ... nothing! The way of the world. If that's what you want to call it. Unfortunately, there have always been and there always will be conspiracy mongers such as you. You offer no alternative other than, "Please me!" That is exactly one of the childish tirades you accuse others of using. If you find the situation so bad, what is your alternative? Mine would be, as I stated before, stop reading offensive material. You don't trust the web site, so why go back? This is not holding anyone's feet to the fire as there is nothing you are going to change by going after people on eCoustics. Your aim is as misdirected as your target. This all amounts to, unfortunately, a small, little fellow who thinks shouting at the world will make it pay attention to him. Have at it, ed. I'm sure you have many more personal comments you'd like to make. I've tried to keep this civil despite your comments. You chose another route even after complaining about how severly you are mistreated. That's what's laughable about all this. . |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1198 Registered: Apr-05 | It is possible that they give good reviews, or any reviews for that matter, to companies that they have connection with vis a vis advertising. These companies send them products to review. If Rotel does not advertise or does not care to send them stuff to review then there is no review good or bad. Now of all the a/v jinn joints, rags, web sites, and cable programms it behooves a manufacturer to be selective about whom they send products out to review. It would make more sense for them to give it to outlets where they actually advertise because of an existing relationship. Now there may be implied or actual pressure on the part of the reviewers to write good reviews, but the statistics that they would actually do reviews on these manufacturers should not be a surprise, nor is it actual proof of any partiality on the part of the reviewers. Some questions you may ask is: how many times does this site give negative reviews? How many times do any of these outlets actually do a bad review? Why would they have advertiser's products on their recommended list? because that's all they've seen. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3498 Registered: Feb-05 | Vader may not have been diplomatic but he's right. | |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthThe woodlands Post Number: 79 Registered: Aug-05 | Look, I'll make a deal with you: don't revert to your usual dull moronic self, and I won't kick your sorry @ss all over the place like I did all the other times, ok? You really believe that do you ! my gosh that is so hilarious, grow up man. you behind a computer me behind a computer; now how in god's heaven can you kick someone's a@@! Don't you realize that when I pick on you is just for fun! I go away laughing and you keep thinking that you kicked my bottom! ha ha ha; yeah sure. No, you have never done that to me nor to anyone else, you try really hard to convince yourself that you are always right but guess what..... You spend way too much time doing this guy and you take it way to seriously, I just wonder how your personal life must be going down the drain.....yes, must be ta ta |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 53 Registered: Mar-06 | It seems to be getting ugly in here. To me the statistics were fun, and I learnt some. It doesnt seem to be worth getting agitated and personal though.. By the way, I'd like to know of publications that ARE dependable. |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 45 Registered: Jun-06 | Yes! There's a lot of expertise on this forum, and collectively, a lot of eyes filtering through all the crap out there on the interweb. I'd be thrilled if some energy was directed to pointing out some really good, trustworthy, relevant articles. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3499 Registered: Feb-05 | All of the audio publications are only as "dependable and trustworthy" as the folks who read them. There is no substitute for learning the priciples and language that guide this hobby. There is also no substitute for getting out and listening to live music so you have some idea of what it is you want a system to sound like. Over the years I have become familiar with the audio press and specific reviewers. I know their styles and preferences. This helps me be a discerning reader. That is one who knows the writer and his/her intended audience. The more information you have when reading a review the better armed you are to fully understand what you are reading. Are there biases in the audio world...ofcourse. But as I stated above you should read audio publications with the same critical thinking that you would the newspaper. Understand the writer's agenda and you can read between the lines. This ain't rocket science fellas so let's lighten up and enjoy! If you know what you are listening for and what you want to achieve in a system you can use the audio press to help narrow down the choices. Reviews are just one of many tools which include these forums to help folks better understand audio. Just remember you can't expect to do trig before you learn to add. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3791 Registered: Dec-04 | Personally I find it rather amusing when a subject so obtuse as a review of a review denegrates into schoolyard name-calling in such a hurry. There are so many highlights, my favorite is Ed's. You thought I was "blowing my top" when writing that analysis? LOL! As I stated before, the analysis was an exercise in morbid curiousity, done on a whim and a dare...in other words, it was done (gasp!) for FUN!!! Yes, just plain simple FUN! Do you know what that 3-letter word actually means, Jan? Oh surely you do, especially with a glass of your favorite single malt and your McIntosh singing along, right? Sure ya do. That's right Eddie, and a lot of others find great joy in similar pursuits of evading time. Eddies great long lists of posts are usually well researched and informative. How frigging lond must it take shopping on-line Sanford and Son's to find this stuff?! Time well wasted Ed? And before y'all jump on my post count, bear in mind the usefulness of half, or more, of my morning coffee blurbs. |
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Bronze Member Username: AudiocPost Number: 16 Registered: Mar-06 | can anyone recommend some good subwoofer cable? | |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3500 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan will be along shortly.... | |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8991 Registered: May-04 | . "Now there may be implied or actual pressure on the part of the reviewers to write good reviews, but the statistics that they would actually do reviews on these manufacturers should not be a surprise, nor is it actual proof of any partiality on the part of the reviewers." THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS! THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS!! THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS!!! (Accompanied by the sounds of kicking, screaming, rolling on the floor and, if there is such a sound, holding his breath until he turns blue.) THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS!!! THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS!! THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT IS! That's not how I want it to beeeeee .......Awww, why can't it be the way I want it to be????? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3797 Registered: Dec-04 | hehe, good foreshadowing, Art. | |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 83 Registered: May-06 | Now can we have a TIME OUT!!!!!! If not some folks should be sent to time out. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8992 Registered: May-04 | . I think a time out is a great idea. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3802 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike I think this is the first time for you to see a good 'ol goofy eCoustics rant(remember I told you that in your 1st or 2nd post). It happens,and y'all can't mama-coddle it. Long time since I seen Jan agree to ANYTHING though, twice in this tirade. Your wife must have a calming effect that is spread via e-post, Mike. Hi to Mike's girl!(smiley) |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 85 Registered: May-06 | Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha | |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4433 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL Jan I'm honestly sorry if you construe my remarks about you as a "personal attack"---I consider them to be extremely fair descriptions of your overall persona and presence on this forum. In short, you do possess some considerable wealth of knowledge about all matters audio---the inevitable downside is that you assume this entitles you to be comically territorial, presumptuous, and officious at every turn. I don't think there is ANY one here who has not learned a fair deal from you. However, I don't think there is ANY one here who has also not often thought to himself, "geez, what a pompous egomaniac" at many junctures throughout the process. So I have to congratulate you on doing here the one thing you do most consistently: turn any thread about any subject into a thread about Jan Vigne---or rather, Jan's breath-taking and infallible wisdom! The tragedy here is that you do have quite a bit of knowledge to offer this forum, but you seldom rise above the compulsive demands of your persistent little ego to SHOW OFF your knowledge rather than simply SHARE it in any true spirit of helpfulness. If I have been at times ungentle with you in this thread Jan, it has really been with the hope of compensating for the over-indulgence which a few others here show you---our dear friend Nuck for example, whom you have groomed into quite a wonderful little disciple and fanboy of yours. Again, I find your continued participation in this thread quite amusing. Why do you continue to keep beating a horse that you've repeatedly sworn is dead dead dead? Do you truly have nothing better to do with all that knowledge and all that time, and never enough admirers to witness its greatness? Is it because this thread continues to grow despite Jan the self-appointed gatekeeper's initial dismissal of it based on a partial half-baked reading of the AVS thread originally linked? Or is it just simple, juvenile spite? Good Lord, I would expect that of Vader-onymous---whom, I'm happy to see, has at least stopped posting color photos of leprous male genitalia as he used to during one of his many incarnations here before the admin finally banned unregistered and anonymous users. So see Jan, there really is hope for everyone, even you! tee hee hee, ok that was fun. Now back to the subject at hand please... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4434 Registered: Mar-05 | > You've convinced yourself you are correct. No one will change that opinion. Everyone else is wrong unless they agree with you. What are you, a US Vice President? I never said "everyone else is wrong"---just you, Jan. OOPS, I forgot: in Jan's Universe, "Jan" *is* "everyone!" So THAT'S why you are so quick to use the royal "we" all the time! : ) > Stop using words that don't exist in the original posts and stop making false arguments with non-sensical propositions. LOL! Again: I never said "everyone else is wrong"---just you, Jan. OOPS, I forgot: in Jan's Universe, "Jan" *is* "everyone!" Maybe you ought to take your own advise, Jan. > Mostly, stop with the personal attacks, ed. You decry them when they come from someone else and yet you relish in them when you make them. I've done nothing here other than disagree with you and suggest what you are claiming as irrefutable proof of some conspiracy is what? ... nothing! The way of the world. If that's what you want to call it. Unfortunately, there have always been and there always will be conspiracy mongers such as you. You offer no alternative other than, "Please me!" That is exactly one of the childish tirades you accuse others of using. Jan, Jan, Jan: now you sound like exactly one of these conservative wingnuts that you've been attacking. You know, the ones whose only response to criticism of how much they've screwed up the so-called "war on terrorism" is, "Well if you don't have a better idea, then STFU!" > If you find the situation so bad, what is your alternative? Ho-hum: what on earth makes you think that a CRITIC---and I mean *any* type of critic...audio, film, political, cultural, religion...has any duty or obligation to actually FIX the problems that he points out? Do you think that *if* hell freezes over and one of these audio critics actually posts a scathingly negative review of say, a Yamaha receiver, then that critic MUST come up with a better receiver design or else his criticism is by definition pointless? That's so moronic, I would've expected Vader to come up with it first. LOL > Mine would be, as I stated before, stop reading offensive material. You don't trust the web site, so why go back? Geez Jan, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your fatherly concern for my reading and web-browsing habits. I see that you're just trying to save me from reading Audioholics, that's all. How sweet of you! Unfortunately I have to tell you that I've never been a regular Audioholics reader (otherwise that analysis would've gone much faster and covered much more ground in the same time period). > This is not holding anyone's feet to the fire as there is nothing you are going to change by going after people on eCoustics. Your aim is as misdirected as your target. This all amounts to, unfortunately, a small, little fellow who thinks shouting at the world will make it pay attention to him. LOL I don't have to "go after" anyone on eCoustics---just bursting the preposterous little bubbles that they live in...yours especially, since you keep coming back for more. You still don't have a clue as to my "aim" nor my "target"---not surprisingly since you've been too smug to actually sit and read my longer postings...oops I forgot, the only lengthy posts that you like to read are your own aren't they? ; ) > Have at it, ed. I'm sure you have many more personal comments you'd like to make. I've tried to keep this civil despite your comments. You chose another route even after complaining about how severly you are mistreated. That's what's laughable about all this. Well, I suppose it is hardly surprising that you, in your trademark congenital narcissism, are unable to recognize that your tone has hardly been civil, from your second post (Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 02:59 pm) onwards. Before this thread turned into the usual eCoustics foodfight, your "tone" has been its usual pompous and overbearing self. No Jan, what's laughable about all this is that I've been doing all the laughing and you've been doing all the hyperventilating while accusing me of doing exactly those things that YOU do! |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 86 Registered: May-06 | Ed, Time for the talking horse to take his time out. "However, I don't think there is ANY one here who has also not often thought to himself, "geez, what a pompous egomaniac" at many junctures throughout the process." No Mr. Ed I would bet the majority of us here value Jan's input and never had an inkling that someone could think otherwise. Do you realize that you represent yourself as someone who doesn't keep up on their meds? I suppose that is impolite of me to tell your dirty little secrets but you certainly have earned it over the course of this post. "Is it because this thread continues to grow despite Jan the self-appointed gatekeeper's initial dismissal of it based on a partial half-baked reading of the AVS thread originally linked? Or is it just simple, juvenile spite?" How many frigin' times are you going to repeat yourself? "If I have been at times ungentle with you in this thread Jan, it has really been with the hope of compensating for the over-indulgence which a few others here show you" There is no over-indulgence. I have learned a lot from many folks, Jan being one of my primary trusted sources on this forum, and it has improved my pure enjoyment of music. However, from you Mr. Ed, the talking horse's butt, I have only learned that you come across like your profile; some folks have nothing to offer. By the way, do you even own any audio or video equipment????????? Maybe someone will just start up a collection for you so you could get over your withdrawls. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4440 Registered: Mar-05 | Mike, Your being around this forum for only 3 months pretty much explains it all. FYI this is only the second time that Jan and I have clashed. Most of the time we get along just fine. The first time was over a thread about salespeople, particularly the audio variety. It was actually initiated by someone else (My Rantz, maybe? can't remember, it was probably 2 years ago) but the gist of it was that Jan was defending salespeople and I was criticizing them. Since Jan has spent most of his adult life in audio sales, he took a lot of my generalized criticism very personally, and so a very similar food-fight ensued. LOL it was really quite hilarious, actually much more amusing than this one because Jan and I were not really used to each other yet and so there was even more blood and testosterone in the air. I remember receiving several obscene and threatening PMs from various anonymous posters, and several "unregistered posters" (a feature no longer available these days) with unflattering derivatives of my user name popped up. After several days of this hullaboo, everything calmed down as we all tired of it. Jan repeatedly implored the admin to delete the thread (something he still does from time to time in his eternal role as self-appointed forum guardian) because he had judged that it was no longer useful. Can't remember if the admin actually did or not. You can check the archives to see if it's still there. Pretty hilarious reading. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4441 Registered: Mar-05 | I should also add: Two other people on this thread who have also had clashes with Jan are Art (who for some reason has recently changed his user name to "AZ") and My Rantz. Both of whom have on occasion clashed with me. Though in all honesty neither of those clashes have been anywhere as fun and drawn-out as mine with Jan. So my advice to you, dear Mike, is to stay regular on your Ex-Lax and don't take anything on this forum very seriously. We're all just having fun in our own peculiar ways. Well, with the exception of Vader. I think he's in love with me, lol. Has a way of popping up every now and then like the persistent gnat that he is. As soon as this thread developed into a drawn-out tussle between Jan and me, I knew it was only a matter of time before he'd show up. But luckily he doesn't have the option of posting stuff as an anonymous or unregistered user any more. Trouble is, kid hasn't had an original thought since he fell out of his momma's sticky brown crack. He just conforms to whatever the collective flow is. Back in the days when he was posting under "anonymous" he used to throw some really nasty homophobic stuff at a poster named Andy Summers who sometimes went by a female name that now eludes me. Anyways, the long and short of it is that there's a lot more to eCoustics than you'll be able to fathom in your mere 3 months' stay here. I mean, you seem to think the users' profiles actually mean something...ROTFL! |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 87 Registered: May-06 | Ed, I'd still like to hear Jan's viewpoint, however I get it. No, I have too much to keep up with the current machinations and info to find that archive. Thanks anyway. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 88 Registered: May-06 | Why shouldn't profiles mean something? BTW this crap is going to get me to silver member status faster than anything I am doing with my sytstem. That's just not right. But I suppose like profiles that doesn't mean a hill of beans either. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4442 Registered: Mar-05 | btw Michael: you're not Vader are you? LOL that's just a joke. I think. Or hope. The reason I ask is because I noticed you co-oping Jan's line about me being on meds. This is exactly the sort of lazy, conformist move that Vader would do...he's a born Zelig. Up until that moment you sounded like a fairly intelligent person, Michael. Let's hope it was just a momentary lapse, otherwise Vader will be very unhappy if he's not the only conformist on the playground any more. Then he'll start copying you copying Jan and before you know it...there'll be THREE Jan Vignes dancing around the campfire and we'll KNOW that the Rapture is at hand! (YEEEEE-haw! My name is Shrub and I say to them terriers, brang it on!) |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 89 Registered: May-06 | I wasn't even aware of Jan's meds comment. I must pay better attention as I value originality. (Or maybe you just have that affect on folks.) So yeah, momentary lapse, won't happen again. As far as Ex-lax, nope, I eat too much spicy food and raw fish. That and eating 6 or 7 times a day....uh better not to go there. And no, I don't thing Vader and Vigne are joined by anything more than the initial "V" and avarice towards you. Before you think to ask, no, I do not hold avarice towards you, almost, but still no. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4445 Registered: Mar-05 | funny, all these "V's"---just saw "V for Vendetta" this week. Not bad compared to the last 2 Matrix movies the Wachowski brothers did. raw fish...as in sushi? whoa, that can be a very expensive habit. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3501 Registered: Feb-05 | I changed from my real name to AZ because I was starting to get too much real contact from folks in the area. AZ is my identifier on the computer at work. The receptionist knows when someone is on my caseload when they see the AZ "load code" as we call it. I explained part of this in another thread. I have indeed clashed with Jan and Ed but have no hard feelings about any of it. After all this is just an audio forum. Jan and Ed have some things in common. They both have a command of the language and like a whole lot of folks in this hobby (myself included) can be a bit pompous at times. The primary difference between them as it relates to this hobby is that Jan knows what she is talking about and Ed doesn't. Ed does a fine job of shopping and finding outstanding bargains for folks who are shopping at the low end of the audio market. But if you have a real problem that requires expertise you are going to ask Jan not Ed. That's how I see it, take it for what it's worth (again not much). |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 739 Registered: Nov-05 | "Jan knows what she is talking about" ROTFL! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3808 Registered: Dec-04 | OK Kids, this bull has seen it's run. If y'all wanna keep up the personal attacks, maybe I start a new thread call 'Guy is a weenie'. or some such. I have talked to a bunch of you all on the phone(Eddie will not give me a pm), and awaiting MR's #, beyond such, I have talked to most of you. Stick it in the pen, boys, and carry out the petty shite at the pub, or the gym, or whatever, I have important audio and filisofical issues to sort out here. like the meening of life and stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3809 Registered: Dec-04 | BTW Edster, when YOU can help mr decide on a particular zener, or help megger a leaky cap, please do so. Others have. Verbosity is grandios, it don't fix my stuff. Call me. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthThe woodlands Post Number: 80 Registered: Aug-05 | Good Lord, I would expect that of Vader-onymous---whom, I'm happy to see, has at least stopped posting color photos of leprous male genitalia as he used to during one of his many incarnations here before the admin finally banned unregistered and anonymous users. Man you sure are something else, I have Never posted a picture on this site but it does not matter you will keep saying the same old lies over and over lol; whatever you say does not change my life on the other hand if other people's opinions don't agree with yours then it really gets under your skin, post counting is not the problem someone can have two posts only and will gain more respect from others than for you with your 4000+ worthless inputs; your stupidity, ignorance and arrogance are your best assets, art is exactly right if anyone needs to know when the next Red Apple sale will take place then you call edster for any other audio related inquiries you are better off asking someone else, you are not an expert! Hopefully you realize that..... The reason why you own cheap gear is because electronic stores do not take food stamps. See you later edster, I know you will find time very soon to reply to this post I, on the other hand I will be having a good time doing different things, Long live the ascends and the Panasonic! lol |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3813 Registered: Dec-04 | Vader. you cant get blood from a dead horse. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it jump through a hoop. If you want to quarrel with Ed, why not PM? |
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Bronze Member Username: Be_brazyInglewood, Ca U.s.a Post Number: 22 Registered: Aug-06 | i am still lost! is this thread important | |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1760 Registered: Feb-04 | Hi Ed, For what it's worth, I agree with you about JV 100%!! He really thinks he owns the place and gets to decide what is okay and what isn't, who is right and who isn't. He even managed a small torpedo toward me in this thread (of course he'll deny it). What a joke. As far as I'm concerned, his positive contributions are easily negated by his arrogant attitude. Ed is right. It's supposed to be fun. Other forums build a community while this one is mostly a pissing contest. Some people who you likely considered forum friends have said pretty negative things about you; I'm surprised that you stay in this great community we have over here at ecoustics. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3505 Registered: Feb-05 | Peter, what you may not understand is just how often Ed says negative things to and about others. When he is here the forum is almost always a pissing contest. What you say about JV has alot of validity and as I acknowledged above Ed may be correct about it, but in the end relative to arrogance it is 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other and only one of the two has the knowledge to back up an attitude like that. It ain't Ed. Ed is very helpful to bargain hunters and his contribution in that regard is admirable. But as I stated above when you have a real problem that requires real nuts and bolts answers it's JV who can most likely answer your question. Don't get me wrong JV has made this forum unpleasant for me before and I think it's just because our politics differ, which I think is unfortunate. This forum should be for anyone from seasoned and experienced audiophiles to newbies and no one should have to fear bringing their audio issues here. Ahh if wishes were fishes and all of that good rot...... Enjoy your day Peter |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1762 Registered: Feb-04 | Well, I think this thread had some valuable information. I also haven't noticed Ed being negative about anyone unless he's attacked (personnaly, not on the basis of this arguments). I don't think anyone has sufficient knowledge to cop an attitude like that. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4448 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, > Jan and Ed have some things in common. They both have a command of the language and like a whole lot of folks in this hobby (myself included) can be a bit pompous at times. Well that would make THREE of us, wouldn't it? Talk about the pot calling the kettles black, LOL! I'll grant that you are well-practiced in your usual facade of humbleness and gentlemanliness---but it always falls apart as soon as someone challenges you. In my case, you could never tolerate our disagreement over the Panasonic digital receivers, which evolved into some pretty acerbic exchanges. I was totally willing to accept that YOU simply didn't like how they sounded on the speakers that you heard them with...as a simple matter of personal taste/preference. You took this as some sort of insult that I would not accept your *OPINION* as FACT...merely because of your much longer audio resume. You were convinced that just because YOU had made up your mind that the Panny was junk, that I should immediately acquiesce to your edict and stop recommending it to others...heh! I felt (and still do) that your arrogance and dogmatism was/is comical and I have never made any attempt to hide it. The last thing I remember you saying to me on that subject was something like, "Well I thought that you were here to learn, but now I see that I was wrong." ... Gag me with a spoon, Pops! When your delusion of patriarchal authority rears its ugly head, I have no hesitation in calling it what it is. You know full well I could give a flying f*ck if you have 250 years of audio experience and enjoy having an enormous placard that says "Behold Art Kyle, a true Audiophile" sticking out of your backside. If you can't brook disagreement, especially at your ripe old age, especially from a random stranger in cyberspace in some obscure and meaningless Internet forum...then frankly, I pity you. Jan has at least displayed enough maturity to let go of old grudges and move on. It's too bad, since I have learned quite a bit from you here---you turned me on to the possibility of hooking up a 2-channel amp to a multichannel receiver, warned me away from the Marantz 5400 CDP in favor of the 4300 CDP, and a number of other very useful things. Ditto with Jan. Unfortunate that things have come to this. > The primary difference between them as it relates to this hobby is that Jan knows what she is talking about and Ed doesn't. Ed does a fine job of shopping and finding outstanding bargains for folks who are shopping at the low end of the audio market. But if you have a real problem that requires expertise you are going to ask Jan not Ed. I'll be the first to say that yes Jan does have much more knowledge of AUDIO than I do, especially in the more high-end, esoteric and technical departments. The man has spent most of his life in the business and hobby in some way or another and it shows---this is something that I have always been totally open about and grateful for. The problem here is that like YOU, Jan sometimes turns his considerable knowledge and expertise as a pedestal on which to place himself above others and to act out (actually he does this less often than YOU do, sorry to say) some comical delusions of infallibility. You to your credit do so only occasionally and far less aggressively. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4449 Registered: Mar-05 | > Peter, what you may not understand is just how often Ed says negative things to and about others. When he is here the forum is almost always a pissing contest. If you honestly believe that I say more negative things to more people than Jan does, you are either dyslexic, extremely biased due to the inter-personal history I've already mentioned, or are much thicker than I ever guessed. My guess is that it's the second reason. (Gasp! Were the other 2 reasons "negative?" My word!) > What you say about JV has alot of validity and as I acknowledged above Ed may be correct about it, but in the end relative to arrogance it is 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other and only one of the two has the knowledge to back up an attitude like that. It ain't Ed. See, the really sad thing here is that you are unable to follow any argument logically for more than about 60 seconds. Everything to you boils down to your attachment to CREDENTIALS---because that is exactly what you base YOUR comically pompous "audiophile" identity on. The CREDENTIALS you derive from: oh, x-number of decades in this hobby, x-number of decades listening to live music, x-number of different speakers, amplifiers, CD players or cables that you've gone through, x-number of local audio shop owners that you've developed personal friendships with, etc. You use these CREDENTIALS in order to construct what you think is your "identity" and "self-esteem," which sometimes manifests itself on this forum as simply your EGO TRIP. You do not seem to realize that most of this thread's fireworks between Jan and I have been based far less on any disputes about audio knowledge, than on a simple PERSONALITY CLASH...exactly what has at times transpired between you and I, and any number of people on any Internet forum. I don't suffer fools gladly, even fools who might know more about audio than I do...LOL! "Fools" here meaning not ignorant people, just narcissistic and overbearing clowns. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4450 Registered: Mar-05 | And as I have openly stated in several different threads at several different times, I have never pretended to be an "audiophile" nor have I ever aspired to that label. To me, an "audiophile" is someone with the single-minded (and largely futile) pursuit of perfection in audio, such that it becomes a RULING passion and he is constantly tweaking and changing out his gear, accepting the immense cost as well as time/energy consumed. In contrast, I've always considered myself an "audio enthusiast" who simply enjoys what he considers to be a pleasing audio experience from equipment that is well within his means, mindful of the rule of diminishing returns, and also tempered by having a much wider range of interests and hobbies outside of audio which also demand my resources and time. Therefore most of my advice is indeed budget-related, and aimed at people who are more likely "audio enthusiasts" rather than "audiophiles"---you'll notice that I skip threads where someone pops up on these boards asking to compare $5K/pair speakers. My observation of how the audio industry as a whole works, is that there is a whole lot of propaganda out there to try to sway people who are really "audio enthusiasts" into the "audiophile" category, mainly for simple economic reasons as well as psychological comfort in numbers. I admit that I enjoy trying to dilute this propaganda with some good old fashioned common sense...a Sisyphean endeavor no doubt, but such are my jollies, lol. Saving a newbie from buying Bose and saving a newbie from paying 3x as much for gear that he will likely get about the same enjoyment as gear costing 1/3 as much, to me is on the same moral plane. You may well be a sincere and genuine "audiophile" with the experience, equipment, and credit card debts to show for it---but take care not to turn it into just another comical ego trip. If it's not too late that is. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4451 Registered: Mar-05 | > For what it's worth, I agree with you about JV 100%!! He really thinks he owns the place and gets to decide what is okay and what isn't, who is right and who isn't. He even managed a small torpedo toward me in this thread (of course he'll deny it). What a joke. As far as I'm concerned, his positive contributions are easily negated by his arrogant attitude. I have noticed some stuff between the two of you on a couple of other threads for quite some time now it seems. I wouldn't take anything here too seriously. This is mainly a good "shoot the shitt" kind of place, with the inevitable swings exchanged now and then. > Ed is right. It's supposed to be fun. Other forums build a community while this one is mostly a pissing contest. Some people who you likely considered forum friends have said pretty negative things about you; I'm surprised that you stay in this great community we have over here at ecoustics. Well such is the special charm of eCoustics, Peter: anarrchy (wonder why this word is censored?), food fights, more anarrchy... makes for a nice change from some of the more tightly moderated, straight-laced places. btw, you should check out the Subwoofer section of AVS sometime if you want to witness some pretty hilarious knock-down-dragged-out scuffles too. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4452 Registered: Mar-05 | Vader, Vader, Vader... sheesh, I'm still waiting for you to say ONE remotely unexpected, original and half-creative thing instead of your same old "Edster is cheap" line that you just can't stop regurgitating. Guess it's hard to figure out what to say when you can't post anonymously anymore, isn't it? Poor poor little Vader. (sniffles) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4453 Registered: Mar-05 | Fred, > i am still lost! is this thread important If you have to ask, then obviously it is NOT. The koan being, what IS? : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4456 Registered: Mar-05 | Nuck, > I have talked to a bunch of you all on the phone(Eddie will not give me a pm), maybe that's because he's never received anything? There's something weird between my PC and eCoustics, for instance I have not received any email notifications of new messages for over a year. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3506 Registered: Feb-05 | Wow that hurts Edster.....lol! Good thing I don't give a rip.... As far as your Panny goes...I believe I was the first here to actually go and listen to it...hence my continuing belief that it's junk. ""Well I thought that you were here to learn, but now I see that I was wrong."" Remember the context in which that was said Edster.....It's quite callous of you to even bring it up. "You do not seem to realize that most of this thread's fireworks between Jan and I have been based far less on any disputes about audio knowledge, than on a simple PERSONALITY CLASH..." Actually I do realize it that's why I compared both personalities and audio knowledge... In the end Edster this is always what becomes of ecoustics when you are here. If you carry this over to your personal life then I feel sorry for your family and friends as your vindictiveness knows no bounds. That's all I have to say on the subject. Prattle on.... |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthThe woodlands Post Number: 82 Registered: Aug-05 | lol, how can anyone say anything unexpected, creative bla bla bla about you if you are still the same old boring, selfcentered, ingnorant, punk! you are so predictable that others whom have the same opinion about you, know exactly what your replies will be post after post, same old story , it is you my insignificant friend who needs to be more creative and you could start by upgrading your old cheap worthless set up, because it is cheap isn't it? or has anything changed that we should know about? It's funny how others might feel sympathy for you but they certainly do not ask for your advice when they it comes to audio inquiries. (The ones with knowledge, of course). now I know I am right, your personal life is got to be on a downhill run big time.....if you are so annoying here in a simple website it scares me to death to imagine what it would be like to live a life with you... Big No No. By the way, while you keep making things up I will throw a fact at ya' I bet you eddie that, of all the the equipment that you recommend on e-coustics, you have not even heard 80% of all those components; man you don't even know what they look like in real life lol lol lol .. Yes, Vader is right...... again |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4457 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, > Wow that hurts Edster.....lol! Good thing I don't give a rip.... Your continued participation in this thread would suggest otherwise, lol. > As far as your Panny goes...I believe I was the first here to actually go and listen to it...hence my continuing belief that it's junk. Well it's nice that you've grown up enough in the duration to understand that it's just a "belief"---you used to go about stamping your little foot and bellowing that it was "fact." LOL >>""Well I thought that you were here to learn, but now I see that I was wrong."" > > Remember the context in which that was said Edster.....It's quite callous of you to even bring it up. "Callous?" How so? It is simply a perfect illustration of your ridiculously overinflated self-image. > Actually I do realize it that's why I compared both personalities and audio knowledge... No, that's not why...you just want to create a credential-based hierarchy on this board so you can indulge in your "audiophile" ego-tripping unchallenged. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Art, I don't care if you have a gold-plated PhD. from Harvard on the subject of audio---all the knowledge and experience in the world does NOT give you, Jan, or anyone else a license to behave like an overbearing, pompous @ss. > In the end Edster this is always what becomes of ecoustics when you are here. Wow, thus far I've only known you as an exceedingly thin-skinned prima donna. Now I have to choose between "pathological liar" and "pathologically deluded" to add to that description. > If you carry this over to your personal life then I feel sorry for your family and friends as your vindictiveness knows no bounds. That's all I have to say on the subject. Prattle on.... Art, if you carry over YOUR preposterously smug, ego-fellating ways over to YOUR personal life...wait, you don't have a personal life that's why you're such an obsessive "audiophile!" And speaking of "vindictiveness," please note that the only thing you've ever contributed to THIS thread is a couple of sniping attacks at me. I guess narcisssism does tend to go hand in hand with shameless hypocrisy, doesn't it. lol |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4458 Registered: Mar-05 | Vader, dear boy, when WILL a single original thought or sentence fall from that smelly brown hole that you constantly talk out of? btw, how long will you continue to copy my frequent use of "lol" in your postings? It sounds so hopelessly forced and contrived...can't you think up your own interjections? What were you, a parrot in your past life? Sigh, such a sad sad case you are. When will you ever get over the simple fact of your total lack of any personality? Here's my advice: just admit that you're a born wanker, and get on with your life. Don't come back here over and over just to make your usual shrill, feeble little attacks. Geez, my dead grandmother has more wit and skill in playing the putdown-game than you do, it's just painfully embarassing to listen to your tedious efforts. Don't you know that if you have to constantly try try try so terribly hard, you probably have zero talent at it and should find something else to do? Hate to be the one to break that to you, but I guess someone has to. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3508 Registered: Feb-05 | Post from earlier in this thread "All of the audio publications are only as "dependable and trustworthy" as the folks who read them. There is no substitute for learning the priciples and language that guide this hobby. There is also no substitute for getting out and listening to live music so you have some idea of what it is you want a system to sound like. Over the years I have become familiar with the audio press and specific reviewers. I know their styles and preferences. This helps me be a discerning reader. That is one who knows the writer and his/her intended audience. The more information you have when reading a review the better armed you are to fully understand what you are reading. Are there biases in the audio world...ofcourse. But as I stated above you should read audio publications with the same critical thinking that you would the newspaper. Understand the writer's agenda and you can read between the lines. This ain't rocket science fellas so let's lighten up and enjoy! If you know what you are listening for and what you want to achieve in a system you can use the audio press to help narrow down the choices. Reviews are just one of many tools which include these forums to help folks better understand audio. Just remember you can't expect to do trig before you learn to add." I believe that was a post directly related to the subject of this thread. It may not have met your criteria but it was my intent to address the subject at hand. "Callous?" How so? It is simply a perfect illustration of your ridiculously overinflated self-image." My father had just passed away and I was tired...too darn tired to argue over the Panny. I was hoping that you would show me the same consideration that all of us showed you when your father was ill....not to be. Too busy thinking about how to make Eddie look like the smartest cheapskate on the site. "that's why you're such an obsessive "audiophile" I don't know what you do with your life Eddie but very little of mine is spent worrying about audio gear. "Wow, thus far I've only known you as an exceedingly thin-skinned prima donna. Now I have to choose between "pathological liar" and "pathologically deluded" to add to that description." Unbelievable Edster, you've sunk to a new low and that is saying something. "I've said it before and I'll say it again: Art, I don't care if you have a gold-plated PhD. from Harvard on the subject of audio---all the knowledge and experience in the world does NOT give you, Jan, or anyone else a license to behave like an overbearing, pompous @ss." Read your post again Edster and see where you fall on the pompous scale. Inflammatory language is your specialty Edster...indeed you're very good at it, but it doesn't change the basic fact that you are a very ignorant little man. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 746 Registered: Nov-05 | Jan can be an arrogant and hyprocrytical so and so at times (though people in glass houses and all that), but his/her (I'm confused) audio knowledge is second to none on this forum and perhaps a multitude of others as well. Many of us have had a run-in here and there with some of the folks here, myself included, but unlike you Edster, they know when enough is enough and in the end, when all the dust settles, there is still a certain amount of respect between the said posters. But, honestly your childish persistence of your vintictive attitude will never garner such respect here. Take a breather, and learn to like yourself then perhaps others will follow and life will be good. Okay, I know - it's my turn next. Give me your best shot - or surprise us all and turn the other cheek. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3509 Registered: Feb-05 | Well said MR. | |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4460 Registered: Mar-05 | > I believe that was a post directly related to the subject of this thread. It may not have met your criteria but it was my intent to address the subject at hand. Then you have a serious misunderstanding of the "subject of this thread"---that is, my statistical analysis of a small part of the Audioholics website. Re-read the title of the thread. It was never intended to be a thread about the audio press in general---that was Jan's digression. I did forget about that post, but it pretty much is in line with many of your postings: one way of paraphrasing it would be: "O grasshopper, there is much to learn about this complex and sublime hobby of ours, you have much work ahead of you before you can join the Olympian ranks of such highly credentialed audio experts as me and can go around puffing yourself up too." > "Callous?" How so? It is simply a perfect illustration of your ridiculously overinflated self-image." > > My father had just passed away and I was tired...too darn tired to argue over the Panny. I was hoping that you would show me the same consideration that all of us showed you when your father was ill....not to be. Too busy thinking about how to make Eddie look like the smartest cheapskate on the site. That's the first that you've ever mentioned of your father passing away during the time of our Panny debate. I'm sorry to hear about that. However, since I had no way of knowing about your father, calling me "callous" in this context is totally baseless and a cheap shot unless you mistakenly thought that I did know. > I don't know what you do with your life Eddie but very little of mine is spent worrying about audio gear. That's not what your postings about constantly upgrading gear and accessories would indicate, LOL. Really amusing coming from someone who concerns himself with little cables and Pledge wipes and Vibrapods. >> "Wow, thus far I've only known you as an exceedingly thin-skinned prima donna. Now I have to choose between "pathological liar" and "pathologically deluded" to add to that description." > >Unbelievable Edster, you've sunk to a new low and that is saying something. Let's see: you told a flat-out lie, and I called you on it. Oh, that's really AWFUL, isn't it? I guess I should let you get away with your BS just because you have such magnificent CREDENTIALS...lol >> "I've said it before and I'll say it again: Art, I don't care if you have a gold-plated PhD. from Harvard on the subject of audio---all the knowledge and experience in the world does NOT give you, Jan, or anyone else a license to behave like an overbearing, pompous @ss." > > Read your post again Edster and see where you fall on the pompous scale. Far far lower on that scale than you do, Art. I have never taken myself nor this hobby nearly as seriously as you, as is evident in my often flippant postings. > Inflammatory language is your specialty Edster...indeed you're very good at it, but it doesn't change the basic fact that you are a very ignorant little man. LOL I've never claimed to be an audio "expert" like you and Jan, but I've never had your stick-up-the-backside attitude about it either. You're the "little" man, with your petty pride. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4461 Registered: Mar-05 | > Jan can be an arrogant and hyprocrytical so and so at times (though people in glass houses and all that), but his/her (I'm confused) audio knowledge is second to none on this forum and perhaps a multitude of others as well. There's no dispute about that. What I do dispute, is your and Art's apparent belief that one's "knowledge" is the basis of a de-facto pecking order here which ENTITLES those with more knowledge the right to behave like pompous @sses with relative impunity. That's a comical delusion which, sorry to say, simply will not fly no matter how much you try to circle the wagons and whine for it. > Many of us have had a run-in here and there with some of the folks here, myself included, but unlike you Edster, they know when enough is enough and in the end, when all the dust settles, there is still a certain amount of respect between the said posters. I still have some respect about Jan. In fact, I have more respect for Jan than I do for Art, and in many ways, more than I do for you. Why? Because Jan declared himself utterly disinterested in this thread, and after some time he appears to have followed through on it. Yet you and Art continue to stick around SOLELY for the purpose of taking potshots at me, and then acting like poor little victims when I return the favor---like the playground bully who runs crying to the teacher when someone finally kicks him in the shins. > But, honestly your childish persistence of your vintictive attitude will never garner such respect here. LOL talk about glass houses---if I remember correctly, you on a couple of occasions swore off this forum and swore off contact with Jan just because of a few tussles you had. Tell me that's not "childish"---"persistence" yes, since you keep coming back for more. As Peter correctly observed, I have personally attacked only those who personally attacked me first---and have zero regrets for doing so. > Take a breather, and learn to like yourself then perhaps others will follow and life will be good. Rantz, your pop psychology is a gas. I'd keep your day job if I were you, lol. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 747 Registered: Nov-05 | Actually you can't count Eddie - that was my first comment here about you. But rather than a long winded rebuttal to all your BS, let me just state that I feel very sorry you. I can understand that it's hard to assimilate in this world with problems such as yours. Unhappiness is a terrible thing Edster, I hope things improve for you. There is much more to life than spending your time being so silly. We can understand that it's hard to be big when your'e so little, Eddie, but others have done it. Now be a good boy or you won't get dessert. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1061 Registered: Oct-04 | Edster - "btw, how long will you continue to copy my frequent use of "lol" in your postings? It sounds so hopelessly forced and contrived...can't you think up your own interjections? What were you, a parrot in your past life? " I invented "lol", stop taking credit Edster. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3510 Registered: Feb-05 | "one way of paraphrasing it would be: "O grasshopper, there is much to learn about this complex and sublime hobby of ours, you have much work ahead of you before you can join the Olympian ranks of such highly credentialed audio experts as me and can go around puffing yourself up too." If that's your way of paraphrasing my post then that goes to show how ignorant you really are. I said nothing of the sort nor did I imply it. You are a sad little man. Get counseling... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3511 Registered: Feb-05 | "That's the first that you've ever mentioned of your father passing away during the time of our Panny debate. I'm sorry to hear about that. However, since I had no way of knowing about your father, calling me "callous" in this context is totally baseless and a cheap shot unless you mistakenly thought that I did know." Apparently you only read what suits your needs. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarthThe woodlands Post Number: 83 Registered: Aug-05 | eddie, lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol ... lol enough is enough...... feel so so sorry for ya' you can insult many good people all you want post after post to but in case you have not noticed it is very clear now who the e-coustics moron is lol lol lol I did win the bet, right? |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 634 Registered: Apr-04 | And this has to do with audio.....HOW? | |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3821 Registered: Dec-04 | Danman, you see, some posters have to speak the words out loud when typing, thus the audio. | |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 635 Registered: Apr-04 | ok! An aweful lot of insults flying around here that have nothing to do with audio! I got involved with that once and learned really fast that it was stupid! Taking things personally on this board is a waste of time. I disappeared for a while and only participated as a regular reader because of it. I doubt Ed meant to attack anyone initially with this thread but in the end, carried this out to where it is now! I actually admire that he even took the time to count all the advertisements but that does not mean someone should attack him for that and neither does that justify some of the comments he made. Vicious circle! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3825 Registered: Dec-04 | This threads fuking dead in the water anyhow, rants expended. Till next time... | |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 90 Registered: Jul-06 | Im sure the owners of Audioholics love the fact that participants in another forum are obsessing over them. Expecially considering their forum is much larger and has more participation and support. | |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3828 Registered: Dec-04 | We aim to please. Oh and monitors, don't forget monitors. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3829 Registered: Dec-04 | Dear Thomas, nothing to add re: T-Amp, just let me say something on the second part of your letter. First of all, it is a good thing to state clear, from time to time, why we are so different from the rest. Some weeks ago, for example, an audiophile wrote in a public forum (speaking of a review of ours) he knows that all reviewers get paid by manufacturers to write positive reviews. Clearly he hadn't an idea of what his fingers were typing (it happens frequently on web forums) but we hate when these things happen, considering the amount of unpaid work we put into this hobby and website. Novice readers may think ALL HiFi mags (be it online or not) are equal. NOT SO. So let me state the concept LOUD and CLEAR from time to time. It is necessary! Secondly, I didn't write our reviews are "objective". No! I just wrote our "opinions" (let's call them for what they are) are independent, in the sense that we don't have manufacturers - or advertising contracts - to please. Which mag or website can claim the same? We write opinions, for sure, not objective facts. Thirdly, you are not aware of the fact that there's an embarassingly long queue of products waiting to be reviewed by us. An ever-increasing number of HiFi Companies is asking us to review their products. Some of these offers (regarding cables, for example) have been even kindly refused! We don't need more products to review, just more spare time to review what we receive :-) Finally, since this is NOT our job and since our income does not depend on the number of visitors our website has, we are not afraid to lose readers or products to review. I can see this is the hardest concept to understand! If you wish to try just keep in mind a simple thing: DO NOT APPLY usual market rules to us. We are not into this market. We are proud to be different. Thanks for the feedback! Lucio Cadeddu TNT, Baby! |
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Bronze Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 56 Registered: Mar-06 | " ...in the sense that we don't have manufacturers - or advertising contracts - to please. Which mag or website can claim the same?... " Does he imply there are none?! |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 9611 Registered: Dec-03 | Don't try to resuscitate the thread...let it die. | |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3830 Registered: Dec-04 | Let it die the sick twisted death of self presented entrails and a bloodily removed still beating heart, the death of lore, of tragically flawed heroes and devils. The death deserving of a solid waste of text on a screen. |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 9615 Registered: Dec-03 | eww! | |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4462 Registered: Mar-05 | Rantz, hee hee, go ahead and declare victory my boy, it's a nice change from your usual habit of getting your precious feelings hurt (sob!) by someone or another, loudly declaring that you are leaving the forum in a melodramatic huff, and then (gasp!) reappearing a few months later. ROFTLMAO... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4463 Registered: Mar-05 | Danman, > I doubt Ed meant to attack anyone initially with this thread but in the end, carried this out to where it is now! I actually admire that he even took the time to count all the advertisements but that does not mean someone should attack him for that and neither does that justify some of the comments he made. Vicious circle! I agree with most of what you wrote. This would be narrative summary of this thread: 1. I posted the original link to the AVS thread with my numbers on it. 2. Jan thinks I was doing another "geez doesn't the audio press just suck" thread instead of a "hmm, look what I think I've found out about Audioholics" and the two of us quickly got into it. 3. Vader (my favorite little stalker-boy) pops up with his usual farrting-through-the-keyboard post. Pretty hilarious because back in the days when he posted as "Anonymous" our little Vader used to follow Jan around the forum all the time with the exact same gnat-like harassing tactics. 4. Art quickly follows Vader's lead (which is pretty remarkable since Vader is usually the mob-follower around here) and throws a few shots my way. 5. I return Art's shots with more than a few of my own, resulting in his usual cry-baby "how dare you!" response of pretending to be oh-so abused...LOL 6. Rantz chimes in brilliant circle-jerk succession to pick a fight with me, and as is my wont I give him a few quick smacks at which point he follows Art's lead and pretends that he's the victim and I am the aggressor. 7. So now we have a nice little merry-go-round in progress! Yippeeeee!!! You're right Danman, this thread hasn't been about audio since that Tuesday post by "silversurfer" on Tuesday, August 8th ... God bless eCoustics! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4464 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, > If that's your way of paraphrasing my post then that goes to show how ignorant you really are. I said nothing of the sort nor did I imply it. You are a sad little man. Get counseling... ah, more feeble insults...LOL from the mighty gentleman who claims to be above insults. Art what's the matter, did you get laid off from your social worker's job again? > "That's the first that you've ever mentioned of your father passing away during the time of our Panny debate. I'm sorry to hear about that. However, since I had no way of knowing about your father, calling me "callous" in this context is totally baseless and a cheap shot unless you mistakenly thought that I did know." > > Apparently you only read what suits your needs. And you only pull out of your @ss whatever suits yours. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4465 Registered: Mar-05 | > Let it die the sick twisted death of self presented entrails and a bloodily removed still beating heart, the death of lore, of tragically flawed heroes and devils. The death deserving of a solid waste of text on a screen. My, that's almost poetic there Nuck! However, methinks that continuing to post in a thread that you wish would die to be a bit ... let's see, how to put this ... counterproductive? ; ) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3512 Registered: Feb-05 | "ah, more feeble insults...LOL from the mighty gentleman who claims to be above insults. Art what's the matter, did you get laid off from your social worker's job again?" I was never laid off Eddie...like I said you only read what suits you...the rest you invent. Have a great evening...I have to get ready for bed...tommorrow I have to get up for that job I got laid off from. BTW I work a 4x10 schedule so tommorrow is my Friday. Terrible ain't it. So do you have any more points to make about your study of corruption at Audioholics? If not I'll let you have the last shot and then perhaps we should both move on. What say you.... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4466 Registered: Mar-05 | btw Nuck, I don't remember Lucio Caddedu among the Audioholics brass who showed up on the Ascend forum threatening blooody murder if David F. the owner of Ascend did not stop that thread's posters from criticizing Audioholics. (This was before I did my number-crunch.) But his letter is classic PR horsesh*t. > Some weeks ago, for example, an audiophile wrote in a public forum (speaking of a review of ours) he knows that all reviewers get paid by manufacturers to write positive reviews. If he was referring to me, he is truly spewing sh*t because I never said "all reviewers"---I was only analyzing his site, and in fact I never said that his reviewers get DIRECTLY paid by manufacturers to write positive reviews. All I basically said in my conclusion is that there is a strikingly disproportionate number of reviews and recommendations (in only 3 sections of his website that I actually had time to dissect) by Audioholics of products from companies that advertise on their website, relative to products by non-advertisers. > Clearly he hadn't an idea of what his fingers were typing (it happens frequently on web forums) but we hate when these things happen, considering the amount of unpaid work we put into this hobby and website. LOL yeah, I forgot that Audioholics is a non-profit organization! > Secondly, I didn't write our reviews are "objective". No! I just wrote our "opinions" (let's call them for what they are) are independent, in the sense that we don't have manufacturers - or advertising contracts - to please. Which mag or website can claim the same? That's a smart assertion because unless one has taken the time to do a wide sample of all the different audio websites and magazines out there, it can neither be proved nor disproved. > We write opinions, for sure, not objective facts. That's not what all the technical gobbledygook wannabe "white papers" they put out imply, in tone nor content. There is a strong pretension of spec-based objectivity on that website. Their ridiculous motto says it all. > Thirdly, you are not aware of the fact that there's an embarassingly long queue of products waiting to be reviewed by us. An ever-increasing number of HiFi Companies is asking us to review their products. Some of these offers (regarding cables, for example) have been even kindly refused! We don't need more products to review, just more spare time to review what we receive :-) This is particularly hilarious---if there's such an abundance of products that various manufacturers are IMPLORING them to review, why do they end up reviewing the Denons and Yamahas over and over again? > Finally, since this is NOT our job and since our income does not depend on the number of visitors our website has, we are not afraid to lose readers or products to review. I can see this is the hardest concept to understand! If you wish to try just keep in mind a simple thing: DO NOT APPLY usual market rules to us. We are not into this market. We are proud to be different. It appears he wants to have it both ways: he wants to claim to be "different" yet he wants to be exempted from the exact same of advertiser-analysis that is fairly commonplace to any print or online publication is subject to. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4467 Registered: Mar-05 | > I was never laid off Eddie...like I said you only read what suits you...the rest you invent. Yes I admit that was a deliberate fabrication, me just following in your footsteps for yet another cheap giggle. LOL my but this thread has been entertaining indeed! Sweet dreams... |
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