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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-06 | Ok lets try this again. My original post went into the void somewhere I think. Anways, I'm looking to purchase my first speakers. I've tried out the Hawk's and they blew me away. In the store I listened mostly to Jazz, Blues, some vocal stuff, and light rock. The speakers were accurate and articulate. I'm wondering though, can they kick my butt as well? How will they handle rock or hard rock? an i feel the music, feel the kick drum, feel the chunky guitar riff? I listen to so any different kinds of music, so its tough to find somethign perfect for everything. Plus there is my wifes requirement that they "look nice" and are not too overbearing (size wize) for the room. I'd appreciate any feedback you may have on my concern, or perhaps on other models in this price range I should consider. Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3489 Registered: Feb-05 | Take some "rock or hard rock" back to the store where you listened to them and give them another test drive. My ProAcs and tubes give me all I need for rock but Nuck may desire 300 watts of solid state power and some floor standers. We're all different. Only you ears can tell you if the Hawks are appropriate for your needs. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-06 | Anyone else have some thoughts? |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 81 Registered: Jul-06 | I'm wondering though, can they kick my butt as well? ------------------ No.... Totem makes good speakers, but not for that. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1551 Registered: Sep-04 | I think Rush has it wrong. They're not 'wildman from Borneo' rock, but they're better than most and give you a heck of a lot more refinement and finesse than most of those others too. Naturally, more expensive Totems such as Forests or Mani-2s are a good deal better in this department, but that doesn't mean the Hawk doesn't do rock. Another brand that does speakers which do rock well with quite a bit of refinement and finesse would be Naim but they're difficult speakers to find. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1047 Registered: Dec-03 | The trouble with this question is that only Dan knows what the term "b@lls" means. If you're talking about clean, deep, chest thumping, room shaking, high decibel output across the full spectrum I doubt any 5" driver can deliver. I have a pair of speakers that do well but they contain a pair of high excursion woofers running in tandem into a transmission line style cabinet. This is about the point you start getting close to the impact of live drums. Even then, they are still not close to what pro woofers in a horn with gobs of power behind them will do. If you find speakers that deliver what you're looking for then you'll have a point of reference the rest of us may be able to relate to. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-06 | If I add a sub to the mix, would that solve the problem? |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-06 | If I add a sub to the mix, with that solve the problem? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3729 Registered: Dec-04 | Yes, oh God yes! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3730 Registered: Dec-04 | Now which sub is the quandry. With the arros, I would not think a rumble-bumble sub would o, although the stf2 will come up, just because it is that good. A nice little 8" REL, perhaps. Sealed and musical. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1048 Registered: Dec-03 | I highly recommend using an active crossover to blend a sub with mains. While it's possible to blend a sub by letting the mains run full and using the sub for the very bottom you can get much better performance with an active XO. This allows you to roll off the mains before they enter the range where they have to work hard keeping the mids much cleaner. Many A/V amps already have them built in and there are 2.1 amps available too. Separate active XOs are out there, mostly for pro audio use but they can be adapted for home use. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3732 Registered: Dec-04 | Tim, I will need an active XO. Any ideas on makes? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1049 Registered: Dec-03 | The good stuff can probably be found at Marchand. http://www.marchandelec.com/xovers.html I'm going to try out a Behringer CX2310 as a low budget option. I'll let you know. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3740 Registered: Dec-04 | Gracias. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3741 Registered: Dec-04 | PS. The lings suck up power till they want to implode. Very, very nice on the Classe. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3491 Registered: Feb-05 | If the sub is up to it I far prefer to run the mains full range. Sounds more natural. Simply requires buying a quality sub such as a REL. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3742 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, the REL are so pricey, but deliver so well. Any 2nd choices to the REL's? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1050 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Nuck. Art- Is it up to the sub or up to the mains if they can handle the load? I agree that at moderate listening levels running smallish mains full is not a problem and sub integration is less of a challenge. However, if someone is trying for high output levels there is a need to control the excursion of the mid/woofer in a small two-way. Using an active crossover is the best solution I know of if the system has not been designed with one already. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3492 Registered: Feb-05 | The Velodyne digital drive (DD) series seems to be getting good press. I haven't tried them but were I in the market I would. The problem with bass has always been price. It costs to get that last octave of quality bass reproduction. There's just no way around it. Tim, I don't doubt what you say but I wouldn't buy a speaker that couldn't give me at least 40-45 hz at whatever volume I can handle. So for me full range is the only sensible solution. I used to run my speakers the other way around until my friend Jim at Northwest Audio Labs suggested I run the mains full range and buy a high quality sub to take over the bass where the mains left off....and no lookin' back. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1562 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, Quality Subs: Velodyne - both SPL and DD ranges are excellent value M&K - simpler than the Velodynes but very high performance indeed. I currently own an M&K MX7000SF and it's wonderful. However, I must say it's not cut and dried whether I should have gone for a Velodyne instead. Both brands are really good. The Velodyne has some amazing specs. The M&K just works really well... My concern with the active crossover route is the introduction of yet more electronics between the signal and the end result. Therefore I would prefer simply using the main speaker signals into the sub, leaving the main speakers to do their thing, since they've been designed to take the signal in the first place. If you were removing the passive crossover in the speakers, then that would be a different question, but if the speakers remain unmodified there is little point in adding the active crossover's distortion to that of the main speakers' in my view. Furthermore, since most rooms cause bass issues, it is beneficial to be able to blend the sub in to taste. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1052 Registered: Dec-03 | In the context (although we still don't have a definition of b@lls) of the OPs question, a 5" driver in a 2-way speaker is not going to deliver what I would consider high output bass levels (high output can be considered 90db+ in room). If you're attempting this with this speaker you'll need help in the bass arena. Adding a sub will help but unless you control the excursion of the 5" driver in the mains you're not going to get very far. The only way to do this without incurring high distortion and damaging the equipment is to roll off the mains before over-excursion occurs. If you're really concerned about delay and other potential issues caused by the introduction of additional electronics in the signal path and/or concerned with accuracy over SPL I suspect a completely different system would be in consideration. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-06 | Tim, I dont quite understand why adding a sub would increase my concern about damaging the the 5" drivers? As for defining b@lls, I guess its near impossible to define in words. Essentially, I want to "feel" the music, and I suppose this comes down to the lower frequencies. Perhaps my dream of a speaker that can perform as good with jazz, classical, etc (with the finest finess and articulation) as it does with rock (loud, chunky, and thick) may be asking for too much? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1573 Registered: Sep-04 | Feeling the music is not down to any particular part of the frequency spectrum, and if it were it is more likely to be a part of the presence (midrange) part of the spectrum. All hifi components have their strengths and weaknesses which often translate to genres of music. It's a question of finding your preferred compromise. regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1054 Registered: Dec-03 | "Tim, I dont quite understand why adding a sub would increase my concern about damaging the the 5" drivers?" The potential for damage has nothing to do with a subwoofer. The potential for damage comes from expecting a 5" driver to produce thunderous bass response. When pushed too far the driver will suffer from over-excursion damaging the driver and probably produce an unstable load for the amplifier. By adding a subwoofer and cutting off the mains above a certain point (typically 80 - 100Hz) you can prevent damage from occurring and get pounding bass at fairly high volume levels. This is the basic concept of home theater systems using small 2-ways with subs and still playing pretty loud. Frank is correct. Feeling the music may not be in the deepest depths, it may be at 60Hz (or the point where your room vibrates). Many listeners of Electronica think they're listening to 20Hz signals from the synth-bass when it reality it's usually between 40 and 50Hz. Kick drums are usually 50Hz at the low point with much of the sound far above that, as high as 5000Hz. Still, expecting a 5" driver to reproduce even 50Hz at high volume levels is expecting too much from the current technology. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-06 | It almost sounds like I am trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Would anyone have some suggestions on speakers I should audition that might better meet my needs? i.e. Can play jazz very well, but also play rock very well? Lets keep it under $2500. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 80 Registered: May-06 | Dan, 2 thoughts. First what if you split the outputs from the Pre-Amp with a T-Connector? One set of RCAs could continue into your amp and then into your speakers full range without adding any electronics. The second set of RCAs from the T-Connector could go directly to the sub. Second, I recently purchased Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.1s speakers (demos or used should hit your price range). I get b@lls from them yet they also keep piano notes resonating on air, and I am enjoying jazz, blues, rock (primarily), and classical music with them. Gallo sells a sub amp specific for this speaker as there are 2 binding posts on the speakers. This is tricky to explain, but the first binding posts are for single amplifier full range, 34 Hz to 35 kHz. The second binding posts are only for the Gallo sub-amp, 240 wpc, and only drive a second coil in the bass speaker which brings these speakers down to 22 Hz. I have listened to the sub-amp set up at my dealer but I have not yet decided whether or not I need it in my set up. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-06 | I'm not sure why posts seemt o go into a black hole. Anyways, Is there a speaker that you can suggest for me to audition, that will better suit my needs. Something that will excel at both Jazz and Rock? Lets cap the budget at $2500. Thx. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-06 | Test |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 115 Registered: Apr-06 | Well for much less than your budget, I can offer the solution of the Alegria Audio Emmas. I can't claim to have ever listened to the Totem lineup, but they certainly are comparable to the Paradigm Studio series, among others which I had previously auditioned. And of course, they have the requisite "balls"; they handle AC/DC and my cousins hip hop well anyways. If you added a sub to them (I havn't bothered to), I can only imagine they would have balls of tungsten. They do like loads and loads of power though. My next upgrade may well be a stereo amplifier from Parasound. |
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New member Username: H3yn0wPost Number: 9 Registered: Jul-06 | Stephen, but can they handle jazz or classical? Can they be articulate? Can they finesse? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomSilver Spring, MD United States Post Number: 118 Registered: Apr-06 | Indeed, they are quite articulate. While my musical taste tends to run more towards classic rock rather than classical, Emma handles softer songs like Blackbird, dynamic tracks like Pink Floyd - The Wall, and as close as I get to classical, Jethro Tull, all with ease and excellent articulation. Emma obviously isn't perfect. I have noted that it does get a bit bright/harsh at higher volumes (-5dB, particularly with Roger Daltrey vocals...), although I think that has more to do with my receiver running out of steam rather than an inherent limitation within Emma herself, hence why I'm thinking of investing in something a bit heftier. Beyond that, I find it perhaps a bit on the warm side, and a bit snappy, with good transient response. You can also look up reviews by other forum members, as the owner of Alegria, Timn8ter sent around a sample for those who were interested. |