B&W DM 602 and rotel RA-971
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New member Username: LazoroskiSkopje, Macedonia Macedonia, T... Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-06 | Dear all, I would really like to get some advice from somebody more experienced on the problem I'm experinencing. My current hifi setup is Rotel RA-971 int.amp, Marantz CD-6001, Project Debut III turntable and B&W DM 602. My problem is that I was a happy owner of the same setup but with B&W DM 303 for several years. And I was really happy until I decided to change my speakers. The sound with the small 303 was excellent. Fullbodied, accurate and easy to listen for many hours. The sound I get on the 602's is rather agressive, with an excellent midrange, highly detailed...but there is this damn bass (long, not focused, slow and boommy) which I really can not bear it anymore. I'm still hoping that this will change with longer working hours of the speakers , but somehow I do not have high hopes. My question is : do you think that it might be that such tiresome bass is a result of the amp. not being able to fully control the low frequency range ? Do you think I might get the sound that I need if I experiment with some better amp. and what would you recommend ? The local salesman is trying to convince me that better results will be produced by ROTEL RA-1062 ... but I'm not sure that my amp. is so different that the one he offers me now. Thank you in advance for your advices. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1525 Registered: Sep-04 | Hello? It's the SPEAKERS! 602s - along with most of the 600 range - put out too much bass. The salesman is right that the better control, resolutioon and grip of the 1062 will improve the situation, but don't go thinking it's the amp's fault - it's not. This is a classic case were a balanced system is tipped out of balance by a new component. Still got those 303s? might be best to go back to them and consider changing other parts of the system (such as the sources) before moving to amp and speakers. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 683 Registered: Nov-05 | Zoran, I disagree with Frank's opinion of the 602's. They do require running in time and placement experimentation (wall distance and toe-in etc). What you find in the bass region, I find quite the opposite - I get tight, full bodied bass and an overall warm, but detailed sound. However, I agree tastes and opinions differ on what this really means (and what our ears hear). You could also try the port plugs supplied and more importantly, decent heavy stands. They do thrive on decent power even though the specs may indicate otherwise. They have a reasonable impedence curve also - down to around 3ohms. I found the 602's performed better with our NAD pre and pro combo than our Marantz SR-7300 AVR. |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIB Nation Post Number: 34 Registered: Jul-06 | Zoran, Have you employed any acoustical room treatments? How are your speakers positioned? Have you experimented with different placement?? IE, not too close to walls, etc, etc. I think your problem is related to setup or room issues, and not a speaker problem. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4340 Registered: Mar-05 | LOL I think Rush sells room treatments for a living, this appears to be his one-size-fits-all answer to everything and everyone. |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIB Nation Post Number: 36 Registered: Jul-06 | Nope, I'm not in the business, but I have treated my theater after many years of living in ignorant bliss without, & the difference is quite astounding. Since nobody else seems to ever mention the topic, I figured that I had better. LOL Im just amazed at how so many claim to be audiophiles, but do absolutely nothing to treat their listening area. People will spend $1,000s on components and fret over deciding between wire A or wire B, and then they'll waste their money when they dump their components into an untreated room. You might as well be listening to your gear on a shelf at a big-box store. It simply leaves me astounded and scratching my head. LOL Sorry, but furnishing your room, floor coverings, and hanging drapes isnt what I'm talking about because it doesnt cut it. Every room needs bass trapping in the corners and absorption at the first reflection points. I venture to guess that very few in this forum have taken the necessary steps to fix their listening area. It amazes me how a factor as important as the room isnt even a topic of discussion in an alleged 'audiophile' hangout. Granted, there are spousal factors that come into play, but that doesnt mean you do nothing. Even partially treating your room can have a significant impact. Many of the problems discussed in this forum, are in fact(at least partially) due to bad room acoustics & room setup/layout. Every room can benefit greatly by taking a few simple treatment steps. Rather than upgrading a component to the newest best thing, my suggestion would be to fix the room first, because it will no doubt have a much larger impact on the quality of your sound. On the other hand, new receiver, new wires, etc, etc, etc, will only have a marginal impact. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 684 Registered: Nov-05 | "Since nobody else seems to ever mention the topic," Rush, the topic has been discussed many times on this forum, maybe not recently. Now if you have a spare few hours to go through the archives . . . LOL! |
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Bronze Member Username: PointeOttawaCanada Post Number: 20 Registered: Jun-06 | I'm following Rush around the forum today, and I once again can corroborate. I always said to myself, when I start to buy serious gear, I'll set up the room properly because otherwise expensive kit is wasted. Had I known how simple and inexpensive it is to treat a room, I would have done it first, not later in the evolution of my system. But we're both newbies and I don't have the time to pour over the archives. I like live interaction too (although, not all of you should really consider yourselves as 'live'...) jk! |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIB Nation Post Number: 39 Registered: Jul-06 | It see this same stuff on a daily basis. I read posts where someone is discussing problems/issues that relate to harshness of sound, listener fatigue, bass issues(too weak or too boomy/strong or muddy), dialog clarity issues during loud segments in movies, certain movie effects being too overpowering and making other sounds hard to hear that shouldnt be, certain music drowning out vocals, clarity issues with certain instruments or notes, etc, etc, etc....... The typical response in this forum, IMO, is way off base. Immediately, the responses will start off with...... what receiver are you mating with your speakers, etc, etc, etc!! Meanwhile, Im reading the post and Immediately recognize how the poster perfectly describing the many adverse side-effects of an untreated room. The poster asking for help might get 40 responses, but not a single response will mention the fact that the room itself could be the most significant contributing factor to the problem at hand. Once the room is fixed, you'd be amazed at how all of those problems melt away. I didnt even realize I had the above problems until after the room was fixed, and then I was like... "Wow, so that's how its supposed to sound!!" LOL While swapping quality components for better ones, etc, etc, etc, will make marginal gains in the sound quality, fixing the room will make a dramatic difference. So much so, that you may even wonder if you're listening to the same speakers!!  You'll be like, "Wow, I didnt know my speakers had THAT in them!" |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIB Nation Post Number: 40 Registered: Jul-06 | Thanks for the helping hand Geoff |
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New member Username: LazoroskiSkopje, Macedonia Macedonia, T... Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-06 | Thank you very much for all your answers. I already achieved some improvements with a pair of new heavy duty stands and better positioning. The bass is almost gone and what is left does not bother me anymore, because I finally realized that 602 are just bigger box and the bass is a bit more agressive than on the 303. It seems I start to like it slowly Thanks once again. Zoran |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3457 Registered: Dec-04 | What is your best link/tool for the room, Rush? |
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Bronze Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIB Nation Post Number: 43 Registered: Jul-06 | I used 10 GIK244 panels to treat my room. They are 2'x4'x4" thick panels used for broad range absorption. Because they don't absorb aggressively at the high end, my room was left still lifelike without sounding too dead or too bright. Some are corner mounted for bass trapping, while others are mounted flush at 1st reflection points. This is a link to a review I found on the web to give you an idea of the panel I'm talking about. http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/GIKacoustics244panels.php This is a link to the company site that includes product specs. http://www.gikacoustics.com/index.html I have a modest HT, (not anything elitist) but the differences made by the room improvements were as dramatic as night and day. I used a borrowed software program from a neighbor to run before & after waterfall charts, etc, etc, but IMO, it was a waste of time. I tend to subscribe to the KISS approach. I guess if you want or need visual confirmation of the fruits of your labors on paper, then go for it, but I didn't think it was necessary. I guess I could always take it a step further by incorporating equalization too, but I was more concerned about better sound in my theater over a broader area, rather than perfect response in a specific spot. Plus, I didn't want the headache to mess with it further. It's an endless balancing act because when you improve one spot, another spot may go to hell in a hand basket. LOL Rather than going back & forth while endlessly tweaking, I preferred to keep it simple. By simply employing a basic installation procedure of placing traps in the corners and first reflection points, your ears will immediately confirm a big change for the better. I feel that most people go way overboard and make it out to be a huge complex & intimidating scientific procedure. Because of that, most people are intimidated and reluctant to treat their room at all, but it only has to be as complex as you make it out to be. Either way, the end result will be a very pleasing one!! In the end, I spent about $750 on the room upgrade, and dollar for dollar, it provided (by far) the most dramatic improvement of any single upgrade I have ever made. |
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Silver Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 685 Registered: Nov-05 | Zoran, I'm pleased about the improvement you're hearing with the 602's. |
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