Hierarchically Upgrading My Components

Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 16 Registered: May-06	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:25 GMT I would appreciate anyone's help in the correct hierarchy of component upgrades. What I am trying to identify is my next step to improving my system. Is it speakers? I am going to review Anthony Gallo Reference 3.1s. Should I perhaps consider a tube pre-amp? I was thinking about a Rogue Audio 99 (Magnum). I am currently using a Creek 5350SE Integrated amp rated 85 wpc. I happen to have 2 old Carver M-4.0Ts which are rated at 375 wpc. I went line out of my Creek pre to my Carver to see if that would provide better bass character. My old Carver sounds better than the Creek which is not logical to me considering technological advances over the years and such. So now I am considering shipping the dead Carver off for refurbishing and when getting that one back switching it out with the one I am using now and have the "good" amp sent out for refurbishing. When it gets back I would look into bi-amping my speakers. It was suggested that if I do this that I get an electonic crossover first. Two reasons for adding this to my post; 1) Doing this makes me think that I do not need to put money out on upgrading my Creek's amp, and 2) Does my going down this path influence what I would do in terms of speaker and pre-amp upgrades (for example is there a pre-amp out there that is set up for bi-amping thereby negating my need for an electronic cross-over)? Where dealers tend to tell me to upgrade to their products, I had a respected repairman telling me to refurbish my Carvers which seemingly would be more cost effective. Anybody know any reason why I should not do this and instead upgrade to a new amp? Again, any help in sorting this out would be most appreciated.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3205 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:48 GMT Would said repairman be willing to do the refurb himself? I would personally want to do the Carver first for 2 reasons. 1) The thing is a classic, and was 'gathering dust' anyhow(shudder). 2) Should you still not want the amp, it would fetch a pretty penny or two more if advertised as refurbed. The Carver is looking for higher input voltage than the Creek, I bet. If you sent out the working amp first, you would have some idea of the finished product before investing in the dead one, which might be a bunch of dollars to get it back to life in its original old state. As well, the tech might be able to up the input signal gain to match your current preamp and really get the Carver up to snuff. In the heirarchy of things, you may want to optimize the Carver first, since you like the bass performance. That and $2.50 will get you a coffee. Nuck
Frank Abela Gold Member Username: Frank_abela Berkshire UK Post Number: 1481 Registered: Sep-04	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 16:12 GMT Not a single mention of the source. In the hierarchy source comes first, followed by amp and finally by speakers... Regards, Frank.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8771 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 16:41 GMT . You have given plenty of information, MW. Congrats on doing far more than what most folks provide when they ask for help. However, as Frank indicated, you haven't given complete information. Therefore, it's rather hard to give good advice. More than a few folks who've been involved with this hobby for years have come to the same conclusion as Frank. Grabage in = garbage out; and, therefore, what the source puts in is what you will hear (bright and hard) and what the source leaves out you will never get back (detail and pacing). On the otherhand, there are still those who feel the speaker is preeminent in the system. There are also those who would place the pre amplifier or the power amplifier as having the most importance in the scheme of system building. This should lead you to believe there is no common consensus on how to do this right. Much depends on what your personal likes and dislikes amount to and what your personal experience has led you to believe. Someone who has heard a significant alertation in quality when switching amplifiers will sometimes feel the system hinges on the amplifier's quality. Same for any other component. And, in that instance, you might be correct. As in all things, balance is the essential to creating a system whose sum is more than its parts. You should have some idea where you want to take this system before you begin moving it in any direction. Should you wish to go from Chicago to Los Angeles, you do not head East unless a very favorite Aunt is in North Carolina and you only intend to stay long enough for cookies. Likewise, as you map out what direction to take your system, you must know where you are heading. This generally goes beyond, "I want clear mids and tight bass." That's too easy to say and too hard to possess. Knowing the personality of what you own and what you like is the key to finding the synergy of components. In this case, a dealer is best suited to helping you find what you wish to own and what you can pass by. An experienced dealer can ask the right questions and let you listen to a few pieces of equipment. They can, by listening to what you say, hopefully lead you in the right direction. Of course they steer you toward what they own. However, I think you'll find a really good dealer will eventually tell you if they don't carry something that would satisfy you. You are wasting as much of their time as they are yours if the two of you can never agree on what sounds best. Listen to what the dealers say and make your choices based on that information. Virtually everyone looks out for thier own interest to some extent as with the repair gent who suggests refurbishing old gear. With few exceptions it is best to buy from one dealer rather than have someone suggest lines you can't audition. You will find that generally people on forums tend to recommend what they like rather than what might suit your needs best. I suggest blindly buying what you cannot audition either to the most confident soul or to the most foolhardy. Dealers logically carry products which represent a concept of what music should sound like through a system. From the highest priced to the lowest priced a good dealer will have products which reflect their point of view. Find the dealer who has the sound you're after and the opinions you share and negotiate with them for the components you will prefer. You will find everyone has an opinion on what you should do. And, in all likelyhood, you could create a decent system by going in any of several directions. But, only if you know where you want to end up can you decide how to begin. .
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8772 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 16:46 GMT . "My old Carver sounds better than the Creek which is not logical to me considering technological advances over the years and such." Possibly explaining that statement might help us make more sense of what you are looking for. Why would you assume new is necessarily better than old when the old is substantially more powerful? Not that power has anything to do with most choices, but newis not by fact of being new always better than something old which better suits your tastes or needs. What are your tastes, MW? .
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4351 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 17:41 GMT "My old Carver sounds better than the Creek..." It is not so surprising. There have been technological advances, but they have not been directed to sound quality. I've recommended the latest issue of HiFi News on another thread; it is a 50-year retrospective - the age of the magazine. There are clearly components made in the 1950s that have never been bettered, just from the point of view of accuracy in sound reproduction.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 17 Registered: May-06	Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 23:21 GMT My source is a Rega Apollo CD player which improved everything so much that it got me onto this path. My entire system is listed in my profile. I should have included the CD player in my original post. The speakers I am considering upgrading from are Monitor Audio Silver 8i's.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 18 Registered: May-06	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 00:45 GMT Jan, I read and re-read your post. Thank you for a well thought out response. What I had done in the past is to listen to a lot of speakers then find out what amp works well with them. I would read web reviews and if I happened to find a product that was given positive feedback on the web I would try to listen to it. I have learned what you said about working with a dealer that knows what you want or in my case has a shared appreciation to mine as to what music should sound like. Where I want to go may not be explainable but I'll know when I get there. For example I listened to B&W 802s (diamond tweeter) with about $14,000 worth of McIntosh gear and it probably was the best I ever heard. As much as I love high fidelity I do not love it $26,000 worth. So realistically I do have to build a system that the sum is greater than its parts. The system I put together to this point is outstanding, however I know it could be better. Buying the Rega Apollo CD player and inserting the Monster HTS 5100 Power Conditioner were back to back home runs for me. I listened to the Gallo Ref. 3.1s last week with a Parasound CD player, Rogue Audio Magnum 99 tube pre-amp and Joseph Audio tube mono-blocks. The acoustic and orchestral music were velvety, full, and delightful to listen to. My "rock" with digitized sound, overdrives, etc. fell flat on its face. So I went back today with my CD player in tow and listened again to the same pre-amp and speakers but with a McCormick 125 wpc amp. Not as lush on the "live" music, but across the board everything was warm, detailed and with ideal staging. I primarily listen to "Classic Rock", Floyd, Zeppelin, etc, followed by female vocalists such as Madeleine Peyroux, Diana Krall, jazz, and blues, and lastly Broadway stage production soundtacks. After reading your reply I have a better appreciation for John Fort, owner of John Fort Audio in Richardson Tx. As he describes his products he clearly states their presentation of music to his tastes. He is limiting what he puts in front me of to where he sees me going. He sold me the Creek and is aware that I gravitate towards the "warmth" of European manufactured products. I guess your making me think about my journey is now having me consider that the most important thing I could do now is audition a tube pre-amp which would make the most significant impact towards what I want to hear. What I am running now provides for a good deal of detail and stage presence so getting equipment to improve that, while welcome, is probably secondary in the overall scheme of things. My logic is that dollar for dollar what would give me more of what I want. Now I am wondering if you are a phsychologist or physchiatrist or something. You put something out there for me to think about, and while thinking about it I possibly have answered my own question. Pretty cool dude!
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8774 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 03:58 GMT . Yeah, I haven't left behind a silver bullet on the forum for awhile, but you're next in line, MW. But, you have to earn it. I somewhat know John and don't think you could do much better here in North Texas. He will be as honest with you as possible for your own good. What do you expect the tube pre amp to do? There is a bit of a misconception about "tube sound" and the idea that it will warm up the sound. I have stated repeatedly on this forum and elsewhere that tubes should not do anything particular to the sound. Colorations are, for the most part, something you want to avoid even if you are trying to put together the most "musical" system possible. Colorations tend to favor certain types of music and not all types. This is fine if you truly listen to one variety of music but clearly you do not. Looking for the most true-to-the-source pre amp is the route I would suggest at this point and if that takes you to tubes, then so be it. Tubes have certain qualities I seldom if ever hear in solid state but the same can be said for the reverse comparison. There is a different way notes begin and end with good tube electronics. Not everyone will fall for what tubes can bring to a system and that is fine. But, do not look to tubes as the way to rid the system of a problem. The components have to be fairly good in my estimation before tubes can really bring anything special to the system. As John describes the personality of the equipment he shows you, listen and begin to put together in your mind what type of characteristics you like in a system. By playing to the strengths of the system rather than patching the problems in one or two existing pieces, you can build your synergistic system at minimal cost. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/111344.html https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/193312.html Here's a thread some people would like to forget; but, it's worth reading the first few posts at least, if you're in the mood to think. (I think this thread is still open for comments.) https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/146311.html My next question to you, MW, would be, do you listen to live music? To what standard are you making comparisons? Are you merely listening for which piece of equipment you like better than the other? Or, do you have some idea of what live music sounds like and are you trying to emulate that sound in your home system? If so, that description should go beyond warmth, detail and stage presence. Can you describe what live music sounds like? What does the Apollo do that is more like live music to you compared to your last source player? Think music, not hifi! Think music, not hifi! Think music, not hifi!!! .
Margie Bronze Member Username: Margie Napa, California Post Number: 83 Registered: Aug-05	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 07:35 GMT Hi Guys MW I wish I had an answer for you but I've been working on the same question (process) for a couple of years now. One thing that has been consistant is that the more I learn the more questions I have.( Perhaps that is always true when the starting point is zero.) The thread Jan referenced above "DO YOU LISTEN?" was most helpful to me. You seem to know the sound you are looking for so maybe not for you. I thought I knew the sound I wanted untill I heard Tims Lings. Between thinking about the opinions and the different ways people were expressing their thoughts, and the way the music sounded through those little speakers,(loved those speakers) I realized that I hadn't identified what I was after. MW the Carver 4.0 is what I am currently using with a B&K pre-amp. I have listened to it with a Hefler pre-amp and several others. I am very fond of it. It may be old but I seem to be drawn to Vintage components..... Live Music....Live Music.....Live Music
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4353 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 09:44 GMT Unfortunately, Jan's thread Speakers > Do you listen was archived nearly a year ago. It was one of the most provocative and interesting threads - I, for one, do not wish to forget about it! There is no doubt that many people today think that music is something that originates from a sound reproduction system. Ask "reproduction of what?" and the question is not even understood, in many cases. We saw that at the beginning of "Do you listen". People quickly got angry.... Another example seems to me to be the new and probably short-lived thread: Music > Poll: What is your favorite audio format?. Here is a serious suggestion, Michael. I am not sure how far away it is from Lewisville, but Dallas has an outstanding Concert Hall, or so I read in the latest Hi-Fi News. Eugene McDermott Concert Hall. If it is within reach, choose a performance, any genre (take a risk - it is not necessary to like everything), and go along. For certain genres, you can find a recording made in that hall. For example (Sorry I only really know "classical") April 1 had Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Sir Andrew Davis, conductor Holst, The Planets a sonic showcase if ever there was one (including the organ - there is one of the best modern pipe organs in the world in that hall, apparently). Dallas Symphony Orchestra and E-store. Many DSO recordings are on Delos a really good label. Then go to an audio dealer. With the recording. See which component makes the system sound most as if it is not there, and you are back in the hall. Choose another genre and the same applies. Hi, Margie!
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3218 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 13:01 GMT MW, I'm gonna drop 2cents and then just follow along. The live music thing is always contentious when everybody gets in on it, but it does remain true.However the type of music being played does have a lot of bearing. You have indicated varied listening interests and if you want accurate representation of the real thing, remember that the real thing may be amplified to begin with. Knowledgeable members whom have already checked in here are dead on with how to go about their individual systems. Listen live, try to reproduce the nuances and realities of the performance. If you go to the symphony or opera, use highest quality cd's or vinyl to base listening upon. However, most members also know that I do not go to the opera(only the occasional theatre production) just some hockey games live. I have been to dozens of Concerts(Rock, obviously) so my live reference is towards already amplified music, which is not so easy to reproduce at home. When the band plays in our big barn, yes it is live. Only my kick drums and crash cymbals are unamplified, so when seeking to recreate the sound at home, I need a speaker that can deliver the attack of a sharp kick drum, but also the highest rasp of a rider with dramatic breaks. This speaker does not play Verdi all so well, regardless of componant influance, nor is it required to. There is no advise in this post, my ears perk up a bit when I see a zep listener post, and see what else comes along. Indeed listen live and remember, each venue adds its own flavor to the live performance. LSO will sound different at Carnegie, Wembly and the field behind my shed. Different from various seating positions as well, those expensive seats are expensive for a reason. The band plays on...
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4357 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 13:27 GMT Thanks Nuck! "my live reference is towards already amplified music, which is not so easy to reproduce at home" Personally I can't see what difference it makes. Take look at that link, above, "Eugene McDermott Concert Hall." Put Cream in there instead of the Dallas Symphony and there are all the same problems and challenges, it seems to me. But there is still only one reference with which to compare the playback. There you are, Michael, you ask simple question and the Old Dogs start barking, again... Amps are a more difficult area than sources and speakers. There is a view that all amps sound much the same provided they are working within their specification. No-one thinks that about speakers. You list three systems in your profile. If it can be done, why not move the amps around and see if there is any effect?
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3222 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 13:57 GMT Yes, John, insert Cream there and the situation is the same. However, I was trying to put across(without saying so) that a live performance from the LSO is far different than a Zeppelin concert. Suppose the string quartet(or barbershop quartet) live experience is one which I can realistically reproduce with B&W 805's and associated gear. Now pop in a Van Halen source. Ain't happening. Just adding a sub is a waste of time. I believe that the proper equipment, chosen wisely and from experience, can produce wonderful enjoyment and practically take you there. Like your system does for you, John.Lovely! However(stretching) does Queen or Korn work well in your room? Doesn't matter, right? MW stated a wide listening interest, so I am just playing Devil's advocate a bit. If anyone figgurs that all amps are the same while operating within design specs, just ask MW about the Creek/Carver swap and the bass.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4358 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 14:09 GMT Cheers, Nuck. I think we agree. Any music is a challenge to reproduce. Maybe it all becomes different when there was no performance in the first place. Even then, the artists and producers must have some idea of what they are trying to achieve, so it all goes back to reference to the real thing. I am going to back off to let Michael and others contribute. All the best.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3223 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 14:35 GMT Me too, John. Let Mike chime in from here. Cheers!
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 19 Registered: May-06	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 14:47 GMT Old Dogs eh? Whatever you call it I could get a degree in audiophile trying to keep up with everything laid out to me here. Just so there is not misunderstanding; that is a compliment in the highest order as I could not be more appreciative of the info provided. I was up until 2AM trying to absorb some of Jan's links. I now know more about triodes and linear transport and tetrodes and pentodes and the issues with feedback with them. (This certainly helped me understand my guitar amp a little better and why "distortion".) I guess I should mention that I recently have become an aspiring guitarist. My wife gave me a classical Yamaha guitar for Christmas and now I am trying to make up for 30 years of not playing. I am up to 5 guitars (having added a Takamine, Fender Telecaster, Tradition (Les Paul Custom S2003 copy) and a Gibson Lucille, 2 amps (one tube and on SS), and numerous effects pedals. I am only beginning to realize pitch and tone. This digression however does lead me to a point. As for my musical gear, I can play non-amplified or amplified. When I play amplified I could use my Crate Palomino V16 or my Line 6 Spider 212. It all depends on what I am trying to emulate or create. (If you think emulating recorded music through an audio system with a redook CD or vinyl LP is hard, try emulating a "sound" from scratch. I am in the league of close but no cigar.) Now for the tie in. John Fort, the dealer I am working closest with, pretty much summed it up, that for what I listen to, the non-amplified music would be best represented in one system, whereas the amplified (rock specifically) could be best represented in a separate system. I am not in the market for 2 systems. Nuck is on target with his assessment of different music genre works well with some things and poorly with others. I think this lends more than anything else as to why there is no "perfect" solution, but when I hear that things cannot be perfect it has to do with low-end extension at the sacrifice of detail or mids or staging or something or other. I have listened to rock concerts, night club gigs, late night bars with a stage, Billy Bob's (in Ft. Worth), travelling Broadway stage productions, and an occaisonal piano bar singer. Chicago Rose, a friend of mine would sing to me a cappella. So I have some sense of "live" music and Nuck is right about seating as well. I have the most appreciation for non-amplified music played back in a manner that puts me in front of the performer(s) or on stage with them. I just love being able to identify what stings and frets are used on acoustic guitar playback or how many guitars are in the mix and their spacing or hearing the nuances in Madeleine Peyroux's voice. So with that, a tube system would be best for me listen to. However when I playback Led Zeppelin's "When the Levee Breaks" and I hear Page's Fender reach where I have never heard it reach before I pump my fist as if my favorite sports team just scored. Since most of what I listen to is amplified I am going in that direction, while trying to maintain some of the "warmth" (sorry Jan) of the non-amplied music I listen to. Obviously I have much more research to do and will be reading through Jan's threads until completion. Y'all have given me plenty to consider.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3224 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 15:16 GMT Mike, don't you have multiple systems now? Is it a matter of choosing one system for just one room, with the stacks of amps and soaks for a 'Boston'(not the pops) sound. You have enough gear there to have a raucous jukebox already, looks like. A HQ set in another room? I am aspiring to have both myself, with little lings and a tube amp and a very good cdp. Thats in the future, while I focus on a RnR outfit. Are you paring down on gear? Your inventory looks like great trade value if you are wanting a SQ setup. Hell, if I had your stuff, m y little house would be full! Gaining a strong sense of direction is obviously the place to start. A road trip with no destination in mind is a lotta fun, but only lasts so long. A longterm dedication to a rewarding choice of pieces requires a lot of thought. Where am I going to be in 5, 10 15 yrs? How will my listening habits and requirements change? Will I move into another place with an entirely different listening room? Have I maximized the listening room I now have? I don't wanna go on, but I thought this one out a lot lately in here. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/228328.html And I have decided to something elase again, partly because of your input. The investment you are or were considering is a healthy one. I intend to follow some of the advise in the linked thread because it makes sense, and because I trust the opinions of a lot of members. A second system seems overkill to some people out there, not so much to people in here. Van Halen ain't Van Morrison ain't Jim Morrison ain't Jim Nabors ain't my neighbor. But I do live next door to a neighbor. Full circle. Nice Gibson Les Paul copy. My wife has one. Of course the Lucille is classy.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4360 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 16:55 GMT "...the non-amplified music would be best represented in one system, whereas the amplified (rock specifically) could be best represented in a separate system" I'm not convinced. It's all sound. And ears are all we have to hear with. I'll think about it! I suppose that people with different musical preferences might prefer different compromises and trade-offs. But you never can tell. There's gentle and subtle electric guitar, and head-banging opera.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8776 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 17:21 GMT . MW - I've been in the situation where two systems might best suit the client's needs. It is a somewhat difficult problem to conquer. However, that never stopped me from trying. Much depends on the client and once again how they think about what they are hearing. To find the pieces which accomplish the goal of satisfying a broad range of music requires time and effort that many people didn't care to put forth. As I've stated on the forum before, when I was selling I would listen to Clapton on the McIntosh/Klipschorn system. That's the only time I would use that system for my personal listening. I shut the door to the demo room and used other systems for everything else I wanted to hear. For my personal systems at home I would never consider having what the Mac/Klipsch system had to offer. My home systems favored what I considered a broad-reaching approach to making music sound accessible no matter what I put on the player. To get my system to this point I tried to identify what all music has in common and which most often separates it from recorded sound. Then I went after what is to me the essence of live music and where I could find that in the equipment I purchased. I believe if you think about what you hear as performers create music, whether it is classical, rock or one individual voice singing spirituals, you can find that common thread which ties them together. After you've identified that quailty in live music performance, you can listen for its presence in system components. Those are the pieces you want to focus on. They will make the widest range of musical styles sound real to you. This was the point of "Do You Listen". As John indicated the question itself made people mad. (The thread has been edited by the forum adminsitrator if you are wondering why it makes little sense at points. Some vitriol got rather hot and was deemed unecessary by the administrator.) Therefore, here is my advice to you at this point. Identify that quality that ties all live music together. Literally write it down. Make it as clear to yourself as possible. That alone is not an easy task. Think about it as you listen and dismiss the concepts of imaging and detail retrieval or anything else which qualifies as relating only to the equipment's prowess. Most of the hifi's qualities are overblown to grab you attention in the showroom. Modern recording techniques also distort the sound of live perfomance and create a false sense of realism. Consider what qualities you actually hear when you hear live music performed. When the widest range of material presents those qualities, you can begin to consider those components. One comment you made seems to require some discourse. " ... when I hear that things cannot be perfect it has to do with low-end extension at the sacrifice of detail or mids or staging or something or other." I doubt that what you require is low end extension. What you probably need is low end power. Something to drive the music forward. That is, first of all, a quality that exists in all music, even a single voice. Some styles play it more upfront that others is the only difference as do some pieces of equipment. So find what the quality is that drives the music regardless of style and begin to concentrate on that quality as a part of what you listen for. Then should the power of the low end need to increase for certain types of music, you might consider a powered subwoofer to give the additonal "oomph" when required. Or, you might also want to consider a pair of headphones which can be used to give Mr. Page his due. .
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3230 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 21:09 GMT Onthe cans, yes. On the sub, no. Mike, I just cannot see a sub(even well placed) replacing the lowest qualities of a well located tower bass unit as is. The central quality of an integrated speaker system is hard to beat. The subs can be placed to deliver as advertised, but I find a 'distance' to the remote subs. Just me, I use 2 subs(el cheapo). John and Jan make very valid points, although John wavered a bit at having his kit deliver Queen, perhaps, but there you are. Jan did not shoot down the idea of a 2nd kit to accompany your RnR. Thats rare. It is also rare to chat with someone so well equipped and as knowlegeble as you are. A raise o' the glass to MW! Cheers! ps. I aint an old dog officially, but the others are.
Margie Bronze Member Username: Margie Napa, California Post Number: 84 Registered: Aug-05	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 00:31 GMT Good points, gentlemen. My need(?) for a second system may be for a different reason. My Mac plays big , expansive, wonderful! Be it classical or Queen, fabulous. But the voices don't have quite the intimacy of other brands. I like that too. Someone purring in my ear is uh...nice. Can you get up close and personal and big, wide open from the same system? ps. not an old dog just a lurker.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3233 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 02:59 GMT Hi again, Margie. Have you tried some Robbie Robertson?
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8779 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 03:21 GMT . Margie - Yes, you can get both. Though I'm not certain why you feel the Mac lacks in the mids. I find the Mac integrated amplifiers to be mostly accurate through the mids though a tad dry. Possibly you are looking for just a bit more coloration/sweetness through the midrange. A Pinot Grigio, perhaps, rather than a Sangiovese? Pre amps with 12AX7 tubes tend to give the sound I suspect you're after. If you can find a Conrad Johnson PV-5 to listen to, I think you'll hear what I'm talking about. The PV-5 makes vocals sound like few other pre amps can and is as convincing in the midrange as any live source you'll hear. The midrange quality of the PV-5 will keep you up at night. It suffers at the frequency extremes but is a good place to begin listening as you try to find the sound quality you're after. The better MOSFET amplifiers also have some of this quality. It is seldom found in solid state amplifiers which use bipolar transistors and that is what you'll find in your McIntosh. .
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3234 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 03:24 GMT I don't know about y'all, but I be just a quiver.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 20 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 05:13 GMT At the risk of never making it to "Silver Member" I am going to try to answer all of your posts in one long drawn out boring post followed by another long drawn out boring post. I figure 2 emails are better than 22 emails. Multiple follow-ups to many posts I received today: JV - "I believe if you think about what you hear as performers create music, whether it is classical, rock or one individual voice singing spirituals, you can find that common thread which ties them together" MW - The common thread I find is the soul or the feeling of the artist expressed through the instruments or vocals. JV - "Do You Listen" MW -- Always, but not always the way I should. This was an important lesson. JV -- "Most of the hifi's qualities are overblown to grab you attention in the showroom." MW -- I think I know why now after spending a few hours with John Fort this afternoon. More on this in the next post. I also realize that why I thought I liked the Classe or McIntosh with B&Ws which may have led me to significant remorse / regret over time, had I the funds to buy that stuff. JV -- "When the widest range of material presents those qualities, you can begin to consider those components." MW -- I had a positive experience along those lines today and when that happens a decision is easy to make. JV -- "One comment you made seems to require some discourse. " ... when I hear that things cannot be perfect it has to do with low-end extension at the sacrifice of detail or mids or staging or something or other. I doubt that what you require is low end extension. What you probably need is low end power. Something to drive the music forward. That is, first of all, a quality that exists in all music, even a single voice." MW -- I failed to make myself clear here. I was using this as an example. Up until this post thread I only heard that you can expect to sacrifice at least one qualitative area of your system in the overall scheme of your system. I now believe that there is a relation to what it is you want your system to do that is more a factor in the sacrifices that you have to accept. It may have helped if I wrote that the first time. N -- "You have enough gear there to have a raucous jukebox already, looks like." MW -- True story. I was trying to be a nice guy so I bought all of the "B" system (Carver) stuff off of my High School girl friend to make her garage sale a success. I really did not need it nor did I know right off what I was going to do with it, other than maybe E-Bay. At first I got to thinking about a better Home Theater set-up (I actually found a third DCM -- Time Window 3D floor standing speaker at a resale shop for $20. AND IT WORKS!) I initially tried to buy this equipment from her 6 years ago when she split from her husband (it was his originally) but she would not sell it. I put together my "A" system after she would not sell me her stuff. So five C notes later here I go. N - Will I move into another place with an entirely different listening room? MW -- I am already planning for that, and it will be a media room, okay maybe a spare bedroom, in a house I am planning to purchase at year end. A bit of an upgrade from a 2 bedroom apartment (Don't nobody go rolling your eyes at me, I get enough grief at home for all the equipment I have here already!) N - "Have I maximized the listening room I now have?" MW -- No doubt that I have, but though it is harder to make improvements, I will keep trying. JA -- "I suppose that people with different musical preferences might prefer different compromises and trade-offs. But you never can tell. There's gentle and subtle electric guitar, and head-banging opera." MW -- You could not be more correct. I now realize that I will have to sacrifice some of the acoustical or vocal excellence with tubes to sustain a qualitative display of amplified music. At least now I am making an informed sacrifice thanks to Jan, Nuck, Margie, and you. JA -- "Mike, I just cannot see a sub(even well placed) replacing the lowest qualities of a well located tower bass unit as is. The central quality of an integrated speaker system is hard to beat. The subs can be placed to deliver as advertised, but I find a 'distance' to the remote subs. Just me, I use 2 subs(el cheapo)." MW -- As I noted earlier to Jan this is a result of a misrepresentation of what I meant in an earlier post. I use one Paradigm sub in my surround system (apartment courtesy). Until I listened to the Vandy Quatros today, which have self powered subs within the tower, I would have arbitrarily banned any use of a sub with my audio system. Yet even the Quatros' subs had to be slightly retuned based on the source material. N -- "John and Jan make very valid points, although John wavered a bit at having his kit deliver Queen, perhaps, but there you are. Jan did not shoot down the idea of a 2nd kit to accompany your RnR. Thats rare. It is also rare to chat with someone so well equipped and as knowlegeble as you are. A raise o' the glass to MW! Cheers! ps. I aint an old dog officially, but the others are." MW -- Nuck, this did not require a response but it gives me the opportunity to reread it. Thanks so much for the kudos. But to your point, I will never have two HQ audio systems. It is too much work an effort to get one to my liking that I would feel adulterous if I tried to build another not better but different. That and if I was going to spend more it would be on further tweaking or upgrades. Until of course something like the Rega Apollo shows up in your system and throws everything out of balance. It would be an honor to for us to be an "Old Dog" officially one day. We just have to continue to be willing to learn and share. M -- "Good points, gentlemen. My need(?) for a second system may be for a different reason. My Mac plays big , expansive, wonderful! Be it classical or Queen, fabulous. But the voices don't have quite the intimacy of other brands. I like that too. Someone purring in my ear is uh...nice. Can you get up close and personal and big, wide open from the same system? ps. not an old dog just a lurker." MW -- I think I may be able to do both with my system. Try some Robert Cray. It can find you even if you have it on for "background" enjoyment. I like Nuck's suggestion as well. JV -- "I find the Mac integrated amplifiers to be mostly accurate through the mids though a tad dry. A Pinot Grigio, perhaps, rather than a Sangiovese? Pre amps with 12AX7 tubes tend to give the sound I suspect you're after. If you can find a Conrad Johnson PV-5 to listen to, I think you'll hear what I'm talking about. The PV-5 makes vocals sound like few other pre amps can and is as convincing in the midrange as any live source you'll hear. The midrange quality of the PV-5 will keep you up at night. It suffers at the frequency extremes but is a good place to begin listening as you try to find the sound quality you're after. The better MOSFET amplifiers also have some of this quality. It is seldom found in solid state amplifiers which use bipolar transistors and that is what you'll find in your McIntosh." MW -- I know you were addressing Margie, but you may as well have been addressing me as well. Read my next post as you will see that what you state here is... well... you will see.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 21 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 05:42 GMT Well thanks to you good folks I too am now all aquiver (even moreso than Nuck). I do not portend to be impatient but once I get enough information to put me over the top I act. I try to avoid becoming re-confused by re-cylcing too much data. First I want to apologize and correct 2 errors in my previous postings either here or on "Has anyone heard the Rega Apollo yet?" thread. I found out this afternoon that my Pink Floyd -- Dark Side of the Moon SACD is a dual disk and plays as a CD also. The Rega Apollo does not support SACD. Secondly I misread, and with new contact lenses too, the tube amps that I thought were flat when I listened to rock music last week. I stated that they were "Joseph Audio" when in fact they were "Quicksilver Audio" of which today John Fort, of John Fort Audio, said he had not had time to optimize to tubes. I should have double checked that before I slammed the wrong manufacturer. I do not even know if Joseph Audio makes tube amps. My becoming all aquiver has to do with my day today. The Carver M-4.0t development moved me away from needing to upgrade my amp. Last night I thought it must be the pre-amp that has to be the next upgrade. Then this morning I reread the information which led me to purchase the Creek and combined with other influences (read this as "my interpretation of your posts to me") I became convinced that I should demo the Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.1s in my home setup. Remember yesterday that I mentioned taking my Apollo in tow to test it with the Rogue Audio Magnum 99 Tube pre-amp and the Gallo 3.1s? I actually left it with John F. so he could form his own opinion of the unit. When I went back today we tried a couple of things. We worked with the setup afore stated and then moved it over to a McCormack SS Pre-Amp with a 225 wpc McCormack amp across about $8K work of cables and speaker wire into Vandersteen Quatro's. You do not have to know anything about music or sound to realize that this was sweet. If someone reminds me or if I remember I will post on the Rega thread the result of the Rega evaluation John was working on. I was really impressed with the weight of the sound that the Vandies carried. Not $7 - $12K (counting cables) impressed, but impressed. Vandy 3's are on my radar. The upside to all of this is that John and I had a couple of hours to sit together and share our impressions of what we were hearing. We truly hear things very similarly; he simply expresses it much better than I do. This bonding of sorts opened me up to really pay attention to what John was saying. Then it happened. You know when you hear something that overshadows everything else relative up to that point, (Cruddy analogy, but "Show me the money" and "You had me at hello" come to mind. You remember the lines more than the "Jerry McGuire" movie itself. And no I am not a Tom Cruise fan!) John said something that I found profoundly true and it sealed my fate. He identified to me that with a solid state pre-amp or integrated, the first part of the note or sound is always at a peak or sharper. With a tube pre-amp, there is a softness or rounding to that first signal which can be plotted with measurement tools. I now understood why I gravitated to the tube sound but not enough to sacrifice my experience with amplified sound. The tubes make the music sound more natural, especially the vocals. I bought the Rogue Audio Magnum 99 pre-amp without listening to any other tube pre-amps because John assured me that it is as transparent a tube amp that he could provide to me and would not be as "dry" as my Creek. I got the impression that he would not even bother to demo another tube pre-amp for me but again that is my impression. I did some dismantling of my gear this evening, to prepare for the re-installation of my system from ground up. The Creek 5350 SE was sacrificed in order for me to be able to purchase the Rouge Audio pre-amp. The Carver (SS amp) made it expendable. It also helped that the pre-amp was a demo, so savings there in both money and break-in period. P.S. Another little delight, the Rouge Audio Magnum 99 has the phono option already installed!!! Someday I will resurrect my vinyl collection and see you on those forums. Hawaiian, Polka, Lawrence Welk, Sinatra, all the way through to Axel F. I kept some of my grandfather's stuff. It is he who made me an audiophile with his combo multiple record player, tube amp, 2 -- way 15" Jensen speaker cabinet.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4363 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:33 GMT Mike, Many thanks for these responses. What an interesting story. Yes, John F's impressions of the Apollo would be good to know. Congratulations on the "Rogue Audio Magnum 99". "Old Dogs" is a reference to a long-running thread "Teaching an old dog new tricks..." under "DVD Audio & SACD". You will be most welcome there, as is Nuck. Though I'm not sure I am. I tend to wander off the point. It also seem you now qualify for "Tube Talk" under "Amps"! Best wishes.
Art Kyle Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3434 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:42 GMT Congrats on the Rogue Mike. I've had occasion to listen to considerable Rogue gear and have always been impressed.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3237 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 14:23 GMT I havn't heard any Rogue stuff, and it is a make that flies under(or over) the radar, it seems. Very interested to hear how the kit works in your room, Mike. So lemme get this straight. Creek was traded, in with the Rogue.Apollo.Carver(unfreshened).Vandersteens or Gallo 3.1's.Nordost I'C's.Uprated power cords and line filter. I don't see a weak link anywhere.Anywhere.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3238 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 14:48 GMT Of course, I would be really, really interested to see about the other Carver with new poly caps and an adjustable input gain...
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 22 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 17:25 GMT Nuck, I still have my Monitor Aduio Silver 8i's. I will look into the Vandersteen (3's probably) after I move from the apartment into a house near year end, unless I find another deal like I did with the Carver gear. The Creek was sacrificed for the Rogue. I will rework my profile, but the system I am warming up as I speak is; Rega Apollo CD Player Purist Audio Elementa Interconnects Element Cable Red Storm Power Cord Black Diamond Racing Cones type M3 Rogue Audio Magnum 99 w/ phone Tube Pre-Amp Audioquest King Cobra Interconnects Van Devers Power Cord Black Diamond Racing Cones type M4 Carver M - 4.0t amplifier (375 wpc) unrefurbished This piece has an internal power filter. Black Diamond Racing Cones type M4 Monitor Audio Silver 8i Speakers Element Cable Twisted Pair Speaker Cable Black Diamond Racing Cones type M3 Black Diamond Puck Monster HTS 5100 Home Theater Reference Power Center with Clean Power Stage 4 v.2.0 Filtering When I get it back I will swap the refurbished Carver into the system and report any listening differences.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 24 Registered: May-06	Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 05:50 GMT Jan, I think I just figured something out. You wrote that "As I've stated on the forum before, when I was selling I would listen to Clapton on the McIntosh/Klipschorn system. That's the only time I would use that system for my personal listening. I shut the door to the demo room and used other systems for everything else I wanted to hear." As I am learning how to play guitar I am also trying to learn about musical theory as well as studying styles of performers. Eric Clapton, at least for some of his material, is known to have turned his tone controls to "0" to get the "Clapton sound". That has to be why his was the only music you could appreciate on the McIntosh / Klipschorn. He deliberately detuned his sound.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8784 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 16:20 GMT . That and I usually appreciated the Mac/Klipsch combination most the morning after I had attended a Clapton concert and my ears were still ringing. .
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 25 Registered: May-06	Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 23:35 GMT Nuck wanted to know how the Rogue Audio Magnum 99 Tube Pre-Amp with Phono worked out in my system. Let's try it this way. Day 1.I dismantled and rebuilt my set-up. About a year ago my wife finally had enough of "speakers everywhere" in our apartment and I had to move my audio system into the entertainment center. I had to cope with this up until yesterday when I brought home the tube pre-amp. No air circulation to be found inside a wall to wall entertainment center. So I "had" to strip the shelves off of my audiophile equipment stand and lay them out across the floor in front of the HT furniture. Then I pulled all my "audio" equipment out of the cabinet and re-arranged the pieces, supported by Black Diamond Racing Pyramid Cones, on the shelves on the floor (carpeted), I then had to move my Monitor Audio Silver 8i's as well due to the gear competing for the same floor space which my speakers used. I used a Chesky records listening tests CD to help with the realignment. Before I auditioned the Rogue in my system I added 3 isolation cones beneath it. I also removed the coffee table from the living room (at least until my wife returns home in 2 days). After going through a few reference cuts once, I put (3) Black Diamond Racing Pyramid Cones, each mounted on a Black Diamond Puck, under each speaker. I do not want to review their effect here but they certainly add to the overall presentation. Whatever they say about their product, they deliver. The reason for pointing all this out is environmental changes need to be considered when weighing what has what effect on my system, the pre-amp or something else. I have made so many changes in the past few months it gets difficult to assign what was the cause or effect of a change in source presentation. Some no brainers for which I do not need more time to realize presented as random observations; I am going to have one hell of a time convincing my wife that I really did not buy new speakers. The bass is so low, clean, and tight that, though its specs say 35Hz, this is the first time I heard that from these speakers. I almost got up twice as I thought someone was knocking at my door. Read this as "dramatic bass extension". There is more specificity in imaging. The sound stage is pulled back from that of the Creek. I am no longer in the first row or standing on the front of the stage, more like 3rd row now. However the soundstage has more height now. When the Levee Breaks" / Led Zeppelin, Page sings "Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good". This is repeated a few times in the song, the experience here occurs at exactly 4:15 into the cut. With the Creek I thought it was being whispered in my ear. Now it sounds as if he leans in towards me and sings it. Vocals are wetter. Do not ask for any elaboration, it is the only way I can describe it. Vocals and non-amplified music do not feel recorded, more like you are there. Even though my Carver M -- 4.0t amp is a "Carver Silver Seven Tube Power Amplifier", whatever that means, and I now have the tube pre-amp, it is not as lush as with tube pre-amp and tube amp. Yesterday listening to the Vandersteen Quatros I felt that they had more "weight" to their sound than did the Anthony Gallo's Reference 3.1s. I would not call the change in my sound as "weight" per se, but I sense more depth with the sound than with the Creek. (As I cautioned above, this may also be related to the fact that only a couple of days ago I put the Carver amp into this system.) I find I enjoy the music with the volumes set slightly lower now. Upper ranges are still crisp, not piercing; clean. I am listening to the whole song for my reference listening whereas I generally listen to the point of identifying what it is in a particular piece I want to hear then I move on to the next piece. Jan and John A. will probably smile over this one, but as the quality of my sound goes up I find myself listening to less amplified recordings and more jazz, orchestral, piano, and such. If I realize anything else in the next few days / weeks I will add more info as I really did not listen to my tuner, and the DVD and cable box feeds do not count as a true "audio" experience. I also have not decided when to either get a new turntable or grab one out of storage. Please be aware that the Rogue pre-amp was a demo so it did not require a break-in period. Day 3. Struggling with speaker placement for 2 days as the Rogue Audio pre-amp has a "tighter soundstage". It may not only be the pre-amp, as I have changed a series of things, isolation cones under the speakers, wall treatment (still moving things around), and moving the coffee table out of the way. Perhaps in my ignorance the Creek was literally bouncing off the walls with sound and maybe I have done a better job of controlling that now. I will seek professional help with this issue. Final point. I normally will not listen to recordings of "live" events for critical listening. But Jan, John A., and Margie have consistently stated to listen to music. Today I bought "The Essential Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble". Disk 1, Track 15 "The Sky Is Crying" and Track 16 "Voodoo Child (Slight Return)" are both recorded live on October 4, 1984 at Carnegie Hall, New York, NY. I have never heard SRV live nor have I been to Carnegie Hall. Listening to both of these cuts for the first time I was not looking for any special detail or image, I just wanted to listen. What I heard was incredible. I sense that I now know what it would have been like to be there based upon two subtle things I heard. On "The Sky Is Crying" I could hear SRV's guitar pick snap off the strings, exactly depicting the attack of his strumming. On "Voodoo Child (Slight Return)" the feedback spikes were as piercing as when I mess up on my guitar here at home. (His may have been intentional however, just in case.) I suppose that I could have just written that this process (thread) was about making a decision and I am thrilled with the help I received as the change from SS to tube in the pre-amp changed my sound more than most, if any at all, speakers could have. It was a change that I am very pleased with. Aside to Nuck; I will not need to mess with the inputs of the Carver. The Rogue has a gain switch on it and even the lowest setting works well with the Carver.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3251 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 00:29 GMT The cat's away and the mice move furniture around. Well that all sounds very good, Mike. How are you going to do when finally placing the speakers again? Change the look a bit? Good the Rogue has that bias feature, that seemed to hold back the Carver a bit. It all looks good, let us know as you move along! Nuck.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8804 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 00:44 GMT . http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html http://sound.westhost.com/site-map.htm http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm http://www.cognitivevent.com/sandbox.html http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/ .
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4372 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 08:26 GMT Well done, Mike! Thanks for the report. I get up occasionally to see if someone is knocking on the door, etc. We could turn "does it sound like the real thing?" around:- It is easier to distinguish a real sound from something on the recording if the system is not much good. Some people may prefer it this way. Perhaps that's one of the differences between men and women, and could account for this general incomprehension by wives etc., who might be more disposed to be in "surveillance mode". When listeninig, background noise in the house drives me nuts, but doesn't seemt to bother anyone else. Yes, the thrill of a live performance. What a pleasure to read your comments.
Clarence Bronze Member Username: Clarence_y Illinois USA Post Number: 30 Registered: Apr-06	Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 16:15 GMT Thanks Jan Great info contained on those site. Sure helps in the audio education. I think my head is going to explode. I've learned much and have a long way to go.
Geoff Bronze Member Username: Pointe OttawaCanada Post Number: 14 Registered: Jun-06	Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 19:29 GMT This thread is fantastic, and extremely timely. My energy for hi-fi has just recently been reinvigorated and I'm just starting to frequent this site. I did some work improving the accoustics in my rec room last week, just before I picked up my new Bryston 2B SST power amp. These two things feed my input to this string... I am a musician. I won't fill this thread with my thoughts on the "Do You Listen" other than to say that I find it strange that often audiophiles aren't musicians and musicians are rarely audiophiles. I think it's an economic result more than anything. Musicians will always spend whatever spare dough they have on trading up their instruments and accessories. Very few professional musicians are successful enough to have enough disposable income to throw on stereo gear. All this said, I am always trying to replicate the true sounds and feelings you get only by playing and hearing really good live music. And just as my musician friends trade up their performing equipment (like when my bass player bought high quality amplifier separates) I can really appreciate when I hear great sound reproduction in my stereo equipment. I would like to put a question out there that I touched on in the Amp forum a month ago, put I can now phrase it a bit better. - By how much do you guys like to leap-frog when you upgrade pieces? It invariably happens that you have weak links in your system and strong parts that aren't done justice. When I looked for advice on buying my Bryston 2B, some suggested I was better to spread my investment by getting a integrated amp for the same money, and ditch my NAD. I'm comfortable that I made the right choice (and I don't want anyone to suggest otherwise, thank you...) but I know in the back of my mind that acquiring a more suitable pre-amp is next on my list and should happen before too long. So, what's a reasonable leap frog? When/how do you play catch up with your accessories (cabling, stands, power, etc)? Would love to hear some feedback. ...by %, $, or some other factor ...
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 26 Registered: May-06	Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 03:22 GMT Geoff, What NAD model? What is the rest of your set-up? Cables, interconnects, source, power conditioning, etc... I figured I may as well ask and get the question out of the way as invariable someone else would. For this example my considerations are where I had made a change in my system driven by a clearance sale at a retail home theater / audio chain. I swapped out a Chang Lightspeed Power line Conditioner with a Monster HTS 5100 Power line Conditioner. The change made a significant positive impact on my soundstage and HDTV picture quality. However my "sound" became fatiguing. Due to the strength of the improvements I decided to leave the Monster in and change out interconnects to warm up my sound. The Monster upgrade was one of opportunity, the Interconnects were one of necessity. My point is there are different drivers for change. Elevated by the sound improvements of my Rega Apollo, I sat one evening looking at my system (while listening of course) and realized that my Monitor Audio Silver 8i's were the "elder statesman" within my system. Another thing on my mind was that I had a couple of older Carver M-4.0t's sitting in my "B" system. That is what drove me to ask "What is the next logical thing to do?" Nuck suggested that I start this thread. What I do when I look to improve something in my system is to bring that piece beyond or leap frog (within budget) the level of everything else while still being compatible with everything else. Hopefully it will extend the life of that piece in my system as I continue tweaking and upgrading. Lastly, like you, I get help, with the folks here at ecoustics as well as a dealer whom I have considerable trust in. As Jan pointed out to me, having a dealer that understands your interests is invaluable. I had been skeptical of dealers' intentions until I carefully considered Jan's advice.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4399 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 06:00 GMT Geoff, Glad you liked Do you listen. The question keeps coming back "What do people want or expect from a HiFi system?". I often realise, eventually, that people want something other than the original sound, and have no interest in music. Recent example from person disappointed with pretty good system: Prima Luna Prologue One question. It's difficult to know what to suggest.
Geoff Bronze Member Username: Pointe OttawaCanada Post Number: 15 Registered: Jun-06	Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 20:07 GMT I updated my profile to include: Sony DVPNS900v SACD player NAD 705 Receiver Bryston 2B SST power amp PSB Century 300 speakers Cables: MIT, SideWinder, Monster speaker wire I'll have to check the actual models on the cables. They're nothing spectacular, just entry level stuff. Until now I didn't see my system in a league that justified expensive power conditioning. For now, I'm just using a power bar from a big box store with filtering capabilities. I wish I had a good dealer. My guy has been okay to this point to get me good value, but his knowledge and product line is pretty limited as I move into the next range of gear. I got some good advice from a store I visited when I was out of town. He told me, at my price range, it would make sense to experiment with speakers because they can flavour the sound so differently from brand to brand and from small step to small step up the price scale. A lot can be learned about one's own tastes through speakers. I'm unlikely to see such a dramatic difference by doubling the value of my cables as I will from putting that same extra few hundred dollars into jumping a step on the speaker scale. (especially true now that I have ample power for any normally loaded speaker) Any one have comments?
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 28 Registered: May-06	Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 20:54 GMT Sorry Geoff, I was not trying to suggest upgrading your line conditioning, I was simply giving an example of different reasons I make purchases. This example meant I found a clearance item and snatched it up. I was not in the market for upgrading my power conditioner, just got lucky. That led to another reason for an upgrade; the brightness of clean power necessitated that I upgrade my interconnects. However you may find clean power will provide you with an improvement equal to that of a serious component or speaker upgrade. Perhaps a dealer can demonstrate for you a decent Home Theater or 2 Channel system running out of a power bar versus running out of a power line conditioner....
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3349 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 21:11 GMT Hi Geoff. I fished around for a good long time here in "After much soul searching" (link didn't work) and posted my decision there as well. In the grand picture of things, the source is the beginning of good or not-so-good results. Speakers add colour, cables change sounds, your amp should be very neutral. But everything affects the source material. If one speaker change makes all the difference you are looking for, well done! The effect often does not last long, or spurs the audio bug from austere dormancy to a line-of-credit maelstrom. I'm in overhaulin' mode and starting over, although it is yet to be seen if my amp or speakers survive the exodus. It starts at the source, that's why it's called that. Audioshop on Bank St. might be worth a look. In daylight hours, if I remember Bank St.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 54 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 18:56 GMT Subjective Observations of the refurbished Carver M-4.0t 375 wpc amp. Since I have 2 Carver M-4.0t amps I will delineate them by using terms "Original (O) Carver" for the one I had been using in my system and "Refurbished ® Carver" for the one I just had work done on. Refurbishment was a rebuild and upgrade with de-oxidation of all pots, HVR calibration, and bias setting. 1. Installation of the R-Carver. Upon hooking up only the speakers and powering up I had a hissing in each speaker, more so the left. I powered down the amp, plugged in the RCA interconnects and powered back up again. Speakers were quiet. I powered up the pre-amp. Still nothing out of the speakers. Turned the volume all the way up to maximum on the pre-amp. Speakers were still absolute quiet. Yes, I was compelled to check and the amp was turned on. I called the repairman and he explained why there was a hissing when the RCAs were not plugged in. I did not understand the explanation so I will not detail it here. 2. The R-Carver seems to be more efficient than the O-Carver. At the same volume control level from the pre-amp I am getting more energy from the O-Carver. Objectively, the LEDs are moving off of level 1 now, without having to turn up the volume to where it had to be on the O-Carver. With the R-Carver I am drawing 1.4 to 1.5 amps whereas with the O-Carver I was drawing 2.1 to 2.5 amps. This is as measured readings from my Monster Power displays. 3. With the original Carver I could not get an accurate left soundstage. Knowing what my "listening area" (not exactly a room) is like, I assumed that the room acoustics were responsible for me being unable to get a left stage and right and left back of stage accurate imaging. I felt that with the refurbished amp that I may need to realign my speaker placement so after a brief warm-up I put in Chesky Records Jazz Sampler & Audiophile Test Compact Disc, Vol. 1. I selected track 10, Introduction and Left-Right Imaging Test. Everything was dead on sniper like perfect. Center stage, 2 feet left and right of center, L & R speaker, off stage behind L & R speaker were suddenly all exactly imaged. The next track is the Ledr test. This is where what sounds like a tin of coins is rattled and moved in various directions. On the up test, an image of the sound rising 6 feet each speaker is what is acceptable. During this test the sound stopped at my ceiling, or 9 feet up. With the O-Carver it was limited to 5 to 6 feet. 4. From reading Nuck's posts, I feel like I am now in the major leagues of noise floors. Having emdured the disturbance of the hissing with the O-Carver it was quite the relief to no longer have to deal with it. 5. My soundstage which had been pulled back and tighter with the O-Carver than with the Creek has now flexed with the R-Carver. The soundstage is about a foot and a half higher, three to four feet more forward, the depth has remained, and I am having trouble figuring out how wide as sound appears to be coming from beyond the walls on the left -- right imaging. 6. Clarity is more difficult for me to describe. I have the same tonal values (sorry if I am inventing terminologies here) with both Carvers. The R-Carver clearly has more presence. Each instrument seems to have greater isolation or insulation from one another than before. I am able to distinguish the slightest of variances when a bongo is played for instance, as to which beat is more forceful. I have heard slight warbles and almost breaks in voices which I had not detected before. The low frequency range is bolder, the mid-ranges are more alive, and guitars are in their own space with almost defiance to how they are presented. If I focus on the guitar it is as if it forces all of the other instruments to the background. 7. Pink Floyd -- Dark Side of the Moon -- 1st track -- On the Run Not only is there a plane crash there are also screams amid the background of the rumble of the crash. Never heard the screams before. The music flows together better than I remember hearing it. The Essential SRV and Double Trouble -- 14th track "The Sky Is Cryin" With the Creek I had heard the guitar pick flick off of the strings. I can no longer hear that, but I can still hear the level of the attack of the strumming. Also, the ear piercing feedback is now capped to a peek (yes peek not peak) of feedback rounded off quickly to a musical guitar chord. White Stripe -- Elephant -- 1st track -- Seven Nation Army I thought this was far enough into the evaluation to crank it up. At 30% of total gain from the pre-amp I reached up to the 4th LED on the Carver. There is a strong bass drum throughout this cut where the sound just hits you in the chest. While this was going on the bass guitar level was lower than the drum and just as loud and clear as the drum, with the vocals out in front of everything. I got the sense that my system was not even putting out an effort where if I upped the gain any more I would not have liked the sound wave pressures in my ears. Masters of Classical Music -- Peter Tchiakovsky, to which I was compelled to listen to the entire disk. I could delineate between each grouping of instruments and their position in the orchestra, but could not tell how many violins or snare drums were playing collectively at any one time. The horns were easier to distinguish. There was a purity of the brass section that was a pleasure to hear. I listened to about thirty other artists from Rock, Metal, Jazz, Contemporary, and Classical. That's it for the review. Now I am off to Dire Straits, Tool, Zeppelin, Sigur Ros Lek -- Agaetis Byrjun, Nivrana, Peter Gabriel, Portishead, Radio Head, Santana, and whatever else I can queue up before being shut down for the weekend.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 56 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 22:01 GMT Epilogue When I had the Creeek 5350SE integrated amp running my system the Monster Power HTS -- 5100 and the Rega Apollo brought me to another level. I was truly delighted with the overwhelming detail and presence. I sought to improve my sound, thinking that I needed a better something when I started this thread. I have since moved out of the Creek and my Monitor Audio Silver 8i's as well. My system has in its place, my refurbished Carver M-4.0t, Rogue Audio Magnum 99 tube pre-amp, Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.1 speakers, upgraded interconnects and speaker wire, and the addition of a Monster Power ATS 2000 Voltage Regulator. Differences are considerable. Where I enjoyed the detail and presence with the Creek, I now see that sound as etchy in its detail. The sonic detail I have now is colorful, more like oil on canvas than an etching. The soundstage is not as forward as with the Creek, however the overall depth, height, and width are greater with the system I have now. (Even if I won't have Jimmy Page whispering in my ear again.) I have been asked "Do you listen?" Without that question and all of your insights, help, and advice I would never have got to this point. Special thanks to John Fort and Jan Vigne. I thought I had a good sounding system even though I knew I could go to audiophile shops and hear better. Now I think I have a great system and know that I could go to audiophile shops and hear different, but not better, in the realistic sense of cost. I am very sincere on this point; I doubt that I could find a $20K system that could beat the synergy I have with mine (about $10K). If nothing else, the voltage regulator and power line conditioning I have elevates my set-up beyond what I would find in most store displays. The 375 wpc doesn't hurt either.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3688 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 22:21 GMT Well done Mike! I am very glad to hear that your refurb works well, that makes a difference for a friend of mine, who I am trying to help out. Your report is well written, honest and most of all helpful! A good conclusion to a short(for me) trip, I am very glad for your success, and hope I helped out a very polite and friendly onliner. A toast to you, Mike,and a tilt to John and Jan! Post Script: 'helping' your divorced, ex-girlfriend by bailing her out of her ex's old amp must be kinds sweet, no?
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 57 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 22:35 GMT Nuck you are always most helpful. I thoroughly enjoy our exhanges. Funny how things work out. I really thought I was being kind to her when in fact it was really her kindness to me as she had a better idea than I of what I was getting. I suppose she and I will always look out for each other with our history and all.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3692 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 23:14 GMT If you have a file of the rework on the amp, Mike, I would like to peruse it. Quite interested in the caps and so on. And the cost of things in Texis. Nuck.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 58 Registered: May-06	Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 00:11 GMT Nuck, NP, I have PM'd you on your profile email.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3694 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 00:41 GMT Thanks, Mike. My laptop is throwing a hissy, it must not like it here in Dunkirk, NY. I will open it when able.
Jan Vigne Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 8935 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 01:25 GMT . " ... I could go to audiophile shops and hear different, but not better, in the realistic sense of cost." That's about the best a system can get. Listen to what you have and know what you do not. When the urge to upgrade strikes again, it will be much easier to asign proper value to what you prize and what you require. .
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3697 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 01:36 GMT " ... I could go to audiophile shops and hear different, but not better, in the realistic sense of cost." That's about the best a system can get. Listen to what you have and know what you do not. When the urge to upgrade strikes again, it will be much easier to asign proper value to what you prize and what you require. If anyone questions diminishing returns, that should be a very good guideline.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4451 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 04:02 GMT Really fine write-up, Michael. Thanks. It takes some time to describe things newly noticed in recordings. Of the music you mention, we have DSOTM and I am going to listen again. It seems to be on everyone's reference list! I too have heard nice demos in dealers, enjoyed the sound, and not been too bothered about the differences between the demo and my current system. The last demo was Diana Krall (apparently everyone else's reference!) through Martin Logans and Musical Fidelity electronics. It was strikingly like a real performance, but the demo room was big enough to help create and sustain the illusion. I, too, currenly have just a listening area.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 59 Registered: May-06	Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 04:40 GMT Jan and Nuck, I find that common sense is usually best presented from an observer. Much of what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go was emotionaly driven. Again, I appreciate the good folks here and my dealer for guiding me and patiently keeping me on track. I suspect that you may have been where I was once upon a time. I started this post with "I would appreciate anyone's help..." I certainly received an abundance of help. Do I have the most articulate amp? Not likely. When I move will my speakers fill my new room? Most likely. Are there tube amps in my future? I suspect so. Will the Rega Saturn overwhelm me? If I read enough about it I might think to try it. Will having a 2nd Carver amp refurbished and sitting on the sidelines make me want to switch out speakers so I could then bi-amp? God I hope not. Will I eventually move all of my spare equipment including the Carver I have in my system into a super HT set-up? Too scary to think about at this time. All in all, I do not know everything my system is short on yet. Time will tell, it always does. Nuck mentioned this was a short trip. He is right. I did not know I had something in hand and would not have tried the Carver thinking it passe save for advice from experienced and knowledgable folks. As to to everything else, I do not normally have the means to act so quickly. This trip was an exception of sorts. I will save both your posts (actually have saved numerous ones already) and when the urge strikes I hope to remember this lesson. P.S. Not only will I continue to weigh in where possible, but I will be getting back into vinyl and still have much more to learn.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 66 Registered: May-06	Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 13:54 GMT Lessons are starting. I bought a turntable, eschewing all the good advice I received, sorry, but the Esoteric Sound Professional Restoration Player sounded better to me than the Rega P3. I bought it at a shop in suburban Chicago that is closing, so with a Grado Silverline cartridge, it was about 1/3 of what I would have paid for the Rega P5. P.S. The nameplate on the turntable identified is as I noted above, but it's box is labeled Esoteric Amen. I am unable to find anything on the web for either naming convention.
Ravinder Bains Silver Member Username: Ravbains MelbourneAustralia Post Number: 236 Registered: Mar-06	Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 17:34 GMT Hi Michael, I just read this thread in detail, a great read. -thanks to yourself and others here. I am very pleased that your refurbed Carvers are working out well, sounds like you have achieved a great result, very nice to see. cheers Rav
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3779 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 23:19 GMT Yeah, I would love to hear Mike's kit.
Michael Wodek Bronze Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 99 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 04:43 GMT I will post this on vinyl as well with different edits. First, my idea of isolating the Esoteric Sound Professional Restoration Deck; I bought a 54 lb patio block, which I laid directly on the carpet. The next level is 3 Black Diamond Racing Cones -- M4s, points up. On top of that I balanced a 75 lb (est.) 25 ¾" by 21 ¾" by 1 ¼" piece of granite. The next layer is again 3 Black Diamond Racing Cones -- M4s, points up, however these are screwed into 3 Black Diamond Racing Pucks. I queued up, for the very first time, the 30 year anniversary digitally re-mastered version of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon LP, while at the same time I loaded the SACD of the same in my Rega Apollo CD player which plays the 2 channel CD data. I was able to synch up both the CD and the vinyl. Though the CD's output voltage was slightly higher than the turntable's I was able to A/B compare by only switching the input selector on my Rogue Audio Magnum 99 Tube Pre-Amp. The similarities; Detail and imaging were fairly exact, CD to LP. Pace was the same for both. The differences; The CD was brighter, the soundstage slightly more forward, but not by much. The LP did not get up to the high frequencies that the CD reached. The CD had a snappier bass, but surprisingly to me at least, not deeper or quicker. The LP was more contained, but did not sound restrained. The CD sounded 1/5 to 1/3 of an octave higher across all instruments. The LP vocals and acoustics were richer (?). Conclusion; I found myself lingering longer on the Phono input than on the CD input of my pre-amp during this comparison sometimes not knowing which I was listening to. I had switched back and forth at least 100 times during the playback. Knowing a lot about my CD player and very little about my turntable I was genuinely surprised that the imaging and detail were so much alike. I am not going to attempt promote one medium over the other as that is subjective listener by listener. What I will state is that I am very, very, pleased with the sound quality of my turntable. Price wise it is something of a bargain. I also have a better appreciation for the natural sound that my Rega Apollo delivers. Over time I will find if there are ways to extend the upper frequency range of the turntable, get a decent record brush (already ordered), and some day in the not too distant future, a disk washing machine.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3885 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 12:34 GMT Thank you for the post, Mike. Your platter sounds to be a very good one. Nice selection on the vinyl, too. Very interesting A/B. I am a tad surprised at the clarity of the cd vs TT, although the mid bloom seems just right on the platter, such a wonderful warm sound that is! Single spin vinyl to cassette;ah, the old days indeed! John A. and I had a trip down memory lane a while back, remembering renting cd's and taping them...imagine! Perhaps now to burn the vinyl to cd or files? That holds promise, maybe you look into it? Congrats and thanks for the post.
Michael Wodek Silver Member Username: Mike3 Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 101 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 14:07 GMT Hmmmm... I do happen to have a "Record" (that being with the long sounding "e") button mapped to RCA outs on my Rogue pre-amp.
Nuck Gold Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 3888 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 14:13 GMT Oh, dude, ya GOTTA try that!

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