Speaker War!!
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New member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 3 Registered: May-04 | I'm looking to get some cool speakers. I have done some shopping and these models caught my eye. 1. Definitive BP2002 with C-1 center $900 2. NHT 2.3 & 1.3 set of each all for $650 3. Energy Exl 26s $310 I have the Pioneer VSX-43tx and presently one pair of the NHT 1.1s(other speakers not worth mentioning. I want good speakers, but I don't want to go broke either. Most of my time is used watching dvd movies. Which would be the most practical choice for someone who is on a budget, but wants what he wants? |
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New member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 4 Registered: May-04 | Oops the NHT 1.3 are actually 1.7s |
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Bronze Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 54 Registered: Apr-04 | Any speaker you have chosen above will sound even better with upgraded cables. You'll get more impact and better sound by spending even a little money on some better cables. On that $300ish range, be sure and audition Paradigm Focus if you can. An excellent bargain and if you even spend $75 on cables you'll notice spacial detail, impact and dynamic range you won't EVER hear with just 'wire'. NHT's are good speakers too. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 228 Registered: Dec-03 | yo james i personally like the def techs but that is me. and! obviously everyone has there thought on speaker wire and interconects. i personally believe once you have descent cables there is no sonic difference in the ultra expensive ones compaired to the good quality ones. to me it is just a marketing ploy so the cable companies can make huge profits. and you do not need the salon selectives cables to produce great audio. money could be spent much better in other areas. james recently i have rewired and recabled my system and found the acoustic research products from best buy affordable and quality made. personally i would not go any smaller of wire than 16 gauge. obviously the wire gets larger with 12 or 14 and if you can get a good deal on larger wire by all means go for it. but i don't bye into all the hype of extrtemly expensive cables and wires. and the markup on that stuff is silly. |
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New member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 7 Registered: May-04 | Kegger, I was thinking the same thing. Unless someone can give me a solid , scientific reason why I should buy these 100.00 speaker cables, I'm with you. If the cable is quality copper, 12-14 gauge and well insulated, it should perform fine. I have both med grade monster cable and some really thick no name. They both sound fine. I like the Def Techs, but, they are killing my budget. Maybe if I can seel something I can get them. I heard the NHT tweets are cool, but get a little harsh with high power. So, Someone has mentioned Axiom speakers. The M22ti's what do you guys think? |
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New member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 9 Registered: May-04 | OK..Here's the deal now. I simply cannot afford the Def techs even though they are a great deal. SO, now it's between the 2-Axiom 22ti's @$400.00(with stands) 2-Energy exl 26's @300.00 2-NHT 2.3s and 2NHT 1.7s@550.00 What do you guys think? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 230 Registered: Dec-03 | if i had to pick from those my choice would be the axioms. |
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Silver Member Username: Project6Post Number: 551 Registered: Dec-03 | Axiom...just sound a tad fuller than the Energy and little less brighter than the NHTs...but not much I felt that the mids and highs of the Axioms just gave dialog and music a little more clarity and definition. let us know what you buy and tell us about your experience. cheers |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 11 Registered: May-04 | Thanks Guys! Are Missions any Good? |
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New member Username: ElitePost Number: 7 Registered: May-04 | cables dont matter regular monster cable will do fine!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 29 Registered: Apr-04 | A big question to ask yourself is how long do you plan to keep the speakers? Are they just going to do the job for the next couple of years or do you plan on keeping them for the next 10 years? If you plan on keeping the speakers long term, spend the money (even if it breaks you budget) on the Def Techs (if thats the speaker you REALLY like) as in the long term, it will only cost you a fraction of what constant upgrading will cost you every couple of years. I speak from experience. Plus the added bonus is that you will be happy with your speakers now as opposed to thinking that they are good for now etc. but eventually wanting more. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 13 Registered: May-04 | Ver well put Markus! Now I have another delimma. Someone is selling some Klipsh speakers. They are the RP-5s. How do they compete with the Def Techs? Does anyone know? |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 14 Registered: May-04 | Thanks Joe for your input. I was hoping some one would say that! |
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Bronze Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 30 Registered: Apr-04 | Haven't heard the RP-5s but I find most Klipsch speakers make my ears hurt. I just can't get used to the loaded horn tweeter but that's just me. My advise to you would be to buy what you know you like right now as opposed to hoping to hear something better. For example, I heard some def techs 2 years and thought they sounded amazing. I didn't buy them at the time due to budget constraints and settled on some smaller bookshelf speakers. I spent the next 2 years upgrading this, swapping that (new speakers every year), adding additional subs etc. (mucho $$$$ spent over the years) but I could never get my setup to sound like I wanted to. Finally, my dealer had a year end sale on his inventory and I just broke down and bought the def techs and sold everything else on ebay. Wish I had done it sooner as I now have the sound I craved for 2 years and I no longer have the upgrade bug. Good luck with your decision :-) |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 15 Registered: May-04 | That's a very good point. Maybe the guy can cut me a break on the Def Techs and I can go ahead and get them. If I can sell my exsisting speakers for a fair price I may just be able to pull it off. Here's another question. How do the polk audio rt1000 and rt2000 stack up against the def techs? |
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Unregistered guest | James, if you listen to those folks that claim wire and cables dont matter, you then must lend yourself to not believing the proper way to assemble a hi-fi system. And the proper way is as follows. Source is ALWAYS most important. Why? Pre-amp, amp or speakers cannot possibly improve upon a signal downstream. Second most important component would then become cables from the source to the pre-amp/amp. Then the amp, speaker wires, and lastly the speakers. Feel free to buy whatever you like, it's your money. But to fall for that old addage that cables don't matter is foolhearted at best. Cables do matter. A lot. Someday you'll hear that for yourself. In fact, in my personal system, the interconnect cables made a much bigger difference in sound than switching Cd players or a new amp. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 19 Registered: May-04 | Thanks Mauimusic, Your are correct cables are important. However, will I see a difference between some $80.00 I simply cannot justify buying an 80.00 cable per speaker. Maybe if some one can show me how big of a difference it woudl make. That may sway my thinking. Here are some other questions I have. Subject matter: 1. Coaxial cable (what's the difference between this and just some really good rca audio connect cables) 2. Subwoofer Cable (what the difference between this and some really good rca cable) 3. Optical cable (will a high end optical cable sound alot better than a really good optical cable?) Bottom line is this. All this "Monster cable" Stuff seems to be getting out of hand. What is true and what is a myth? 1. In the pre amp stage, what's a better connection cable optical or coaxial? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1077 Registered: Dec-03 | James, I noticed that the first reply you received included "Any speaker you have chosen above will sound even better with upgraded cables." I noticed, also, that you didn't say anything about cables, and therefore wonder how anyone can know that. Speaker war is a picnic on a sunny day compared with cable war. Replies to questions in last post. 1. RCA Co-ax. For digital and composite video, the cable should be "75 Ohm": it is good if that is printed on it. Any cable will work for testing. For analogue audio connection, "75 Ohm" does not matter; lower impedances may even be better. But then, there is no need to specify. 2. 75 Ohm, as above. 3. Provided the light comes out of the other end (you can see that, if the laser is red) all optical cables are the same. There is no "high end"; only money wasted. Extreme lengths (> 10 m) may require a booster or repeater. 1.(4.?) For digital, no difference. Except co-axial can sometimes tends to generate RF interference ("75 Ohm" fixes that). Optical cannot do that. You should also consider analogue interconnects at the pre-amp stage, in addition to one of those two digital methods. Especially for CD - it may sound better, depending on the player. For DVD-Audio it is essential. Cables should be no longer that they need to be. "Need to be" includes some flexibility in where you might eventually choose to put things, especially speakers. There are many good speakers on the market these says. If you would like my personal suggestion for something to consider, I have never had a problem with KEF. They sound great, mostly have co-axial tweeters and midrange units for accurate positioning in the sound field (it works), and are built to last. If you ever need to, it is also a good company to deal with. They are just shipping me a tweeter assembly for a model (Coda II) that was discontinued about twenty years ago. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 277 Registered: Dec-03 | my personal oppinion james is that speakers are the most important part of your system. if you don't like the way they sound nothing you can do before the sound comes out of them will matter. so buy yourself the speakers that you like get yourself some descent electronics and lastly buy well made inexpensive cabling. i have found that acoustic research cabling from best buy falls into that catagory."just to mention one" |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 21 Registered: May-04 | Thanks John for your information. It is greatly appreciated. I was just at fry's today looking at all those expensive cables and wondering. You saved me a good $100.00 in gimmick cabling. Kegger, thanks for your info about speakers. How does Kef Q15s stack up with the above mentioned Axiom 22ti speakers? Another competition is the 1.Polk ti150 2.Paradigm monitor 7 3.Definitive technolgy speakers Who wins? all of course in the same price class. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1079 Registered: Dec-03 | James, You are most welcome. I have not compared speaker brands in any systematic way. Just from reading here, there is a long list of good makes, and those three are on it. I can personally attest to KEF and a few others, too (such as B&W). Kegger is right. Speakers are almost always the most important consideration. ..."and lastly buy well made inexpensive cabling" is also excellent advice. Hobby electronics shops usually sell a range of cables just like that, "just to mention another". Now you can buy THX-certified cables, if you have money to burn, and want to impress people with that. |
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Bronze Member Username: MarkuspToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 34 Registered: Apr-04 | James - not to slam anyones advice here but I think you need to go with what your ears tell you. You have a nice receiver, so your "source" for the most part is well taken care of (don't know what DVD or CD player you have). If you buy decent quality cables such as John A. and Kegger suggest (without breaking the bank), all your interconnects will be taken care of. I agree with Kegger when he states that speakers are the most important piece of the puzzle. If you had a $2000 source piece and only $200 speakers, that source piece will sound much worse as opposed to listening to a $200 source piece with $2000 speakers (I exagerate but I think you will understand my point). The last question I have for you is what will you be using the speakers for? Will they only be for home theater? Will you listen to music through them? If so, how much of your listening will be devoted to either? I really like Def Techs but I mainly use them in a home theater situation. I have another little hi-fi setup for listening to music in another room of my house. I have owned the Paradigm 7s and they are a decent speaker but lack some detail and midrange in the efforts to produce more bass. This is how the Monitor series was designed. The Polk's are great for home theater as well but can be very forceful and lack detail as well. All three speakers are great for home theater but may not be the best bet for music use. That's why I suggest going with what your ears tell you. Lame advice for sure but the best I can give without knowing more and without actually being able to test each speaker in your own home environment. Another really important component that no one has mentioned is your listening / viewing room. Room acoustics can make any great speaker sound like crap and some others sound terrific. I had terrific B&W speakers that just didn't sound all that great in my room but my Def Techs do sound great due to their bipolar nature. They help compensate for my room's acoustics. You need to get the speakers home if all possible and try them out! Good luck with your decision. Markus. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1082 Registered: Dec-03 | Just to say I agree with Markus, too. A good source essential. Probably Kegger and I are taking that for granted. And room acoustics can have more effect than anything. Cut down reflections from smooth, hard surfaces. Especially behind the speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 278 Registered: Dec-03 | james i think the last 5 posts or so tell all that you need to know. now you need to get out their and find out what you personally like the sound of and will be the right fit for your room. and the best way if you could would be to get them home. playing them in your own environment might make your choices easier. |
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New member Username: ElitePost Number: 8 Registered: May-04 | FAQ: Audioquest Cable Theories Exposed Date: 3/25/03 Dear Audioholics.com, I sent the following email to Audioquest regarding their FAQ article listed below: Audioquest FAQ I find your FAQ section to be misleading and misguiding to those who don't understand basic electronics. I question your business ethics if you can deliberately make such ludicrous claims as cables causing distortions, or cables requiring break in, etc. You have no proof for this, nor do you base your reasoning on any valid science. I wish the FTC would step in here and force cable vendors to back up their bogus claims. I would appreciate the Audioholics take regarding the Audioquest response below: Response from Audioquest We totally understand that is very easy to be skeptical about cables. After all, you can't measure it, so how can you possibly hear it? In fact you can hear it - and it really is very easy to hear the differences. Far from making bogus claims, the principle of cable "break in" is very real. "Breaking in" a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion. The cable is now said to be "broken in" and sound quality is improved. To prove it, simply take 2 pairs of the same cable - one broken in, one new, and compare in the same system. As for causing distortion - absolutely! All cables cause distortion. Stranded cables cause the worst type of distortion, which is why we use solid conductors. We sell millions of dollars worth of cables every year. Every week I receive an e-mail or a phone call from a delighted customer who has made a bigger difference to their system with a $100 cable than with a $1,000 component. We must be doing something right! Of course, you can choose not to believe, but you'd be missing out on so much. Regards, Alasdair Patrick AudioQuest 8710 Research Drive Irvine CA 92618 Tel: 949 585 0111 Fax: 949 585 0333 E-Mail: alasdair@audioquest.com Website: www.audioquest.com Reprinted with permission of Audioquest Audioholics.com Response ( Gene DellaSala) Ok, I would say I am a bit confused by Audioquests responses. Let's examine them further. "After all, you can't measure it, so how can you possibly hear it? In fact you can hear it - and it really is very easy to hear the differences. " The first sentence is perhaps the only truthful statement in their response. They can't measure it, they can't calculate it, they can't prove it, it's not validated in any engineering text book, nor is it accepted by any scientific body. In reality, any audible changes in frequency response, distortion, phase, delay, reflection,etc are easily measurable by Engineering Test Equipment such as a Distortion Analyzers, Spectrum/Network Analyzers, Audio Precision, and TDR. These are fundamental and essential tools that have assisted Design Engineers for decades in making precision measurements with equipment which far exceeds the limits of human hearing and even the abilities of our audio equipment. "'Breaking in' a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion." Thus their conclusion is the dielectric, not the wire causes distortion! Claims regarding insulation molecules "aligning" with a signal, skin effect, strand jumping, etc, are anecdotal at best. Let's not forget that an audio signal is AC, and effectively random from a physical perspective. Nothing can align to a random signal by being anything other than random - exactly the state they claim is "cured" by injecting a signal. "Break In" is not a proven audible or measurable phenomenon. The perception of changes in sound quality with time is likely attributable to the classical placebo effect, i.e., a listener anticipating a possible audible difference is predisposed to hear one whether or not it exists. However, later they claim, "Stranded cables cause the worst type of distortion, which is why we use solid conductors." Now, the wire causes the worst type of distortion! Now, if they claim that there is a "huge" difference in distortion, then surely a simple measurement would prove it, and we could all sleep soundly with some real facts to support their claims and put the argument to rest once and for all - repeatability of these measurements would be nice, too! Ok, let's play the devils advocate for the moment and assume what they said regarding wire causing audible distortions is true. What should we do with the internal wiring of our electronics gear and loudspeakers? The majority of these products are internally wired with stranded wire. Also, if this was the case, how come the majority of quality microphone cables are constructed with stranded wire and nobody has ever complained about those cables causing audible distortions? The bottom line is none of the claims Audioquest has made in their responses have any scientific backing or measurable truths. Not one cable vendor who ever made such claims ever furnished any type of proof, or submitted their theories and supporting data to any scientific body or engineering organization for peer review to my knowledge. There is not one shred of proof that stranded wires can introduce audible non linear distortions. There is also no proof that stranded wires suffer from multipathic effects at audio frequencies. " Strand Jumping" cannot cause diode rectification. Again if diode rectification did occur at audio frequencies, the result would be the creation of very audible (and measurable) even-order harmonic distortion (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.) that would render a system un-listenable. It is always amazing to me that many cable vendors attempt to apply, or should I say "mis-apply", and reference proven engineering models to rationalize why their cables are "better". Yet, they reject the analysis and measurability of these models to prove that in fact they did solve the alleged problem. One also wonders how many of these vendors actually have degreed Electrical Engineers on their staff and the proper test equipment to design "better" cables. For more information regarding "Skin Effect" and " Strand Jumping" please read our peer reviewed articles on these topics: Skin Effect Relevance on Speaker Cables Interview with Dr. Howard Johnson About Skin Effect Relevance in Speaker Cables We sell millions of dollars worth of cables every year. Every week I receive an e-mail or a phone call from a delighted customer who has made a bigger difference to their system with a $100 cable than with a $1,000 component. We must be doing something right! I believe that they do sell millions of dollars worth of cables every year, how else can they fund their enormous marketing campaign to sell their products? The statement regarding a $100 cable having more of an audible affect than a $1000 component is totally absurd and complete nonsense. As always, we welcome Audioquest and/or any other cable vendor to furnish us proof of their claims, and cable samples for us to conduct our own testing for verification purposes. I agree, the FTC should be involved in this business as it is a consumer product based on engineering truths that must not be ignored |
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New member Username: ElitePost Number: 9 Registered: May-04 | I hope this clears up some of the brainwashing involved when talking about cables. Like I said monster cable is fine! |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 279 Registered: Dec-03 | no joe it won't clear it up other people who believe in their $100 or more a piece cabling will continue to do so. but at least you and i along with a few others will buy our well made inexpensive cabling be it monster cable or acoutic research or whatever other brand is worthy.and be very happy that we did not break the bank on cabling! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1088 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Joe! It was a bit difficult working out who was saying what etc., but I get the picture. Just reading that "Response from Audioquest" says it all. They are either do not know the first thing about electricity, or are con men, or both. That bit about patterns in the insulation absorbing more or less energy from the conductor is total bullshit. The insulation is non-conducting; that is its whole purpose. Even Monster is more expensive than need be, and they have some "wierd science" in their literature, too. I understand they now pay THX to certify some of their cables; this calls both of them into question, in my view; it is the customer who pays. I would go further and say a recognised brand of cable is not helpful. Especially if that is all they make. Though of course some brand ID indicates the maker stands by its product. What's inside your electronics and speakers is cabling and components from makers most of us have never heard of; you trust the amp/speaker maker to make that decision for you. Cabling is a similar component. Take a look to see if it is well made, like Kegger says. If it look soundly-constructed and is the right one for the job, buy it. If it has a fault, take it back. Cables, working properly, and correctly fitted, are the last thing that will make any difference to your system. |
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New member Username: ElitePost Number: 10 Registered: May-04 | Good points!! |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 22 Registered: May-04 | Ok..here's a question. What's the better sounding speaker between the two mentioned below?? 1. Axiom M22ti @350.00 2. Paradigm Monitor 7s@500.00 3. Def tech 2004s @600.00 |
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Silver Member Username: Project6Post Number: 568 Registered: Dec-03 | that's "three", James a totally subjective choice and should be left up to the individual making the choice. I've only been able to compare the Axioms and the Paradigms and I preferred the sound of the Axioms, using Outlaw Audio equipment. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 24 Registered: May-04 | Thanks Berny! |
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Unregistered guest | I came across this post while doing some research, and had to comment. I was professionally in car and home audio for about 10 years, and until the last few years, I was quite skeptical about cabling making a difference. First, let me point out that most people understand electricity in terms of DC. This is great when you are talking basics, but as soon as you turn to AC current, things get more complicated. The first thing that happens is you go from a solid ON or OFF to a frequency. Home power has a frequency of 60hz, which is quite slow, and quite unaffected by conductor types. As you increase the frequency, the electricity starts to do wierd things. Higher frequencies travel on different parts of the wire than lower frequencies. Because of this, the higher frequencies can actually travel farther than the lower frequencies, resulting in time distortions between the two. Imagine you are listening to music, and the music has any number of different frequncies playing at once. An amplifier will "combine" those frequencies into a complex waveform when it turns it into electric current. Those waveforms are going to distort as they travel through wire. There is nothing you can do except minimize the effects. Companies like audioquest and monster cable have spent millions in research to determine what works best. Audioquest uses long strand copper and special insulators, where monster uses multi-stranded of different guages, and wraps the smaller guages around the larger so that the path is longer. The different effects are there, but subject to interpretation of the listener. I took the AudioQuest demo kit one day, along with some other cheaper wiring, and hooked up a rather expensive stereo system as a demo. (the system was from Norway, and cost somewhere in the $15k range). I started with lamp-cord type speaker wire, 16ga. We listened for a few minutes. Then we switched to Monster Cable 12ga. There was a noticeable difference. The monster did indeed sound better. Then, we went to the entry level AQ wire. Not much different than the Monster. Then, we moved into some stuff in the 5 dollar per foot range. Definite improvement. The thing that really convinced me, however, was the stuff running in the 500 dollar per foot range.. I was amazed at the difference in sound. It was as if we had gone from a cheap JVC receiver to a Krell amp or something.. Quite an improvement. We switched back to monster just to make certain we werent fooling ourselves, and found that indeed what we were hearing was correct. The differences were as dramatic as changing equipment. Now, I am not saying go buy the most expensive wire you can get, but what I am saying, is that you should be spending 10-15% of the cost of the hardware on interconnects. If you spend 3000 dollars on your cd, pre-amp, amp, speakers as a set, spend 300-450 on wire. Now this is the rca cords, the speaker wire, and any other interconnects. Keep in mind that Fiber Optic cable is not going to make a difference, and even coax digital cable is pretty much all the same.. its ones and zeros.. you cant distort a one, unless there is a serious flaw in the cable. But, when it comes to sound, at the pre-amp level or higher, the cable is as important as the source. Video is the same as audio. You have to have an impedance of 75 ohms on the cable. Once again, if you compare you knowledge of electronics based on DC current, it would not make sense to need a 75 ohm impedance between sheild and conductor, but video, like audio, is not basic electricity. I once though that a cat 5 (twisted pair conductors) would transmit a full BNC type component video sourced from a faroudja line doubler to a Vidikron video1 projector. Boy, did I get schooled on that one.. My 50 foot cable quote went from 5 dollars to 2500 dollars.. and I had to have it same day aired in from AudioQuest.. hehe.. ouch.. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1450 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave, You make a good point, and I am one person who just about understands basic DC. I know things get more complicated with AC, and especially at high frequencies. But even there, there is an awful lot of bullshit around, you must admit. Look at Joe's quote from Audioquest on May 16, above. The only other point I would add, and this applies to everything, is that it is not the price itself that makes the difference, so this idea of spending not less than a certain proportion of the total system budget must be wrong. If you buy a big plasma TV, do you upgrade to more expensive audio cables, to keep to 10-15% ? I have a simple stereo running on out-of-the-box RCA interconnects that came with the DVD player. I swap them for Monsters, with arrows on, and hear no difference. It sounds great whatever I do. And I have a huge variety of all sorts of cables. And my dealer tried to sell me a single co-ax for about $100 for DVD-A (which does not work with co-ax at all). It is a mess. I can't see why more makers don't use BNC connectors with co-ax cables. They are the standard for real electronics, also for connecting a satellite LNB. It could be because they are secure, last forever, and are cheap.... |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 38 Registered: May-04 | Hey Guys, I ended up getting some Polk rt1000i speakers. They spund ok , but the 80watt built in subs are not quite enough. I have them in a 12 x 22 room. My Yamaha YST-SW315 puts out wayyy more bass. So, instead of selling it, I kept it. The speakers look great and they seem to sound pretty good. But, are they a quality match for my Pioneer Elite VSX-43tx? Let me know. I believe I should continue to seek out a good deal on the Def tech speakers. I believe the power sub in them sounds better than that of the Polk rt1000is. Speaker wire? Well I'm using some really thick RCA speaker wire. It looks like monster cable and is about 14ga. The guys did throw in some monster cable with the Rt1000i's. Maybe I will change up and see if there is a difference. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rh1Post Number: 47 Registered: Jun-04 | I just purchased Wharfedale Diamond 8.3 fronts (towers), 8.1 surrounds, Diamond 8 center. I got all of this for $500. You might want to look into these speakers, I have read great reviews. From what I have been told on this forum, they will match up well with your Pioneer 43tx as this is one of the receivers that I was considering. I will have them 6-22 and I will surely post my review then. You can find great deals on these speakers thru Ebay or Amazon.com |
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Unregistered guest | John When it comes to video, Cabling will make a difference as well. I bought a Mitsubishi 48" hd a few months back, and paid about 1500 for it.. I felt the sting when I picked out a 2 meter component cable for the DVD from Monster, at about 90 dollars. Even having been in the business, I forgot to consider cables when thinking of th purchase.. I budgeted for a 1500 dollar TV and ended up skimping on the cable. I really want to get a good DVI cable now that I have an HD cable box that has the output, but I still have a hard time spending 150 dollars for a cable that makes such a small difference compared to a decent component cable. What I have come to learn are two major points: 1) to most people, the difference in cables is only prominent when going from the cheapest to the most expensive. Subtle changes in video quality and/or sound quality are missed by the average joe. Some people catch the changes, and some simply dont notice them. 2) Sometimes, even when you have first hand knowledge of the good/better/best in audio/video, you simply reach a threshold of what is important vs what it costs. On the first note, When subjectively comparing either video or audio cables, I can notice a difference, especially in the audio cables, and with video, mostly just in changes from crap cables to good ones. Depending on the level of quality you are shooting for, you reach a point of diminishing returns somewhere in the spectrum of cabling available. Because of number 2, for me, the point of diminishing returns is around the level of average monster cable/ entry audioquest cable. Personally, I have noticed the difference in RCA line level interconnects in audio, and RCA 75ohm video cables, BUT when you are looking at crapvision 480 (ntsc) or listening to a tuner, tape, or mp3 type source, cabling just doesnt really matter. Going back to the science, when it comes to RCA cables, the thicker they are, typically the worse they are. The reasons have to do with noise and sheilding. Video cables should be 75 ohm coaxial, preferably quad sheilded. A good video RCA cable will be thick because it has lots of sheilding, but the center conductor should have a minimal distance from the outter conducter. The further the distance from the center to the outter, the more of an antenna for noise you have. But at high frequencies (video), sheilding the cable with different types of metal can prevent noise intrusion. With Audio, at line level (rca) you have a whole different set of physics to deal with. The frequencies are low enough that conventional sheilding does not matter. If the RCA is coaxial style, the distance from the center conductor to the outter conductor should be minimized, to prevent rf noise. But if you want to eliminate the noise altogether, twisted pair cable is the way to go. I could get into the science behind this, but I will spare you the details. However, after you get past the problems of noise entering the line, you have to deal with the same issues you have with speaker wire. Time alignment issues will arise, just as they do with speaker wire. This is where the conductor material, and the physical design of the conductors can make a difference. Once again, note that not everyone will hear a difference. Most environments for listening to music are not very ideal, and if you have an average source unit, average pre-amp/amp or receiver, and average speakers, the gain from very high quality cables is minimal. This is where the 10-15% comes in. If you have a 150,000 dollar 2 channel stereo, then 500 dollar per foot cables make sense. If you have a 500 dollar receiver running a pair of 500 dollar speakers, sourced from a 200 dollar cd player, then spending 120 dollars total on interconnects and speaker wire is not out of line. 120 dollars buys some 16 ga monster cable speaker wire and a halfway decent pair of RCA audio cables. When you add a 6000 dollar plasma set, running a 600 dollar dvi cable is probably overkill, but the 6000 dollar plasma set is overkill IMO too, since a good 3 gun rear projection tv is going to give better quality and not burn in in the first 100 hours of viewing. Its a rule of thumb, but works in almost every case. If you are running the RCA cables that came with the cd player, replace them. If you have 18 ga lamp cord connecting your speakers, at least get some monster cable (remember to strip the center conductor.. its important). If you just bought a sunfire amp and a pair of 2000 dollar speakers, spend 300-400 on your wire.. it is worth it, you will notice a difference. I guess if you are the type of person to buy a very high end "audiophile" amplifier and speaker set, the cables will matter to you. If you are looking for a good theater setup, and are going to watch Harry Potter in 5.1, the cables will only matter that they arent pure crap. I have to throw in a comment about the AudioQuest quote. I am about 90 percent sold on audioquest myself, purely from experience, and with some physics and electrical engineering schooling in the background, I can see what they are saying as making some sense. What they said was pretty much the standard PR line for anyone that calls bullshit on their product, but I dont see it as a total lie, just a laymans "pseudo-science" explanation of some hardcore science that is 50% subjective, and 50% measurable. I for one am convinced that they know what they are doing, because I have heard the results first hand, in an environment where it would matter. However, some people would consider a tube amp to have a "warm" sound, and others would say it is distorted.. its all in how you hear it. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1455 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave, I have read it all, and I mostly agree. Thank you. But again, and my main point: it is not the money that does it. This is like politicians replying to "what have you done about x?" with "We have spent y millions on x". It is not answering the question! Spending money is not sufficient for anything, except maybe self-esteem. I agree about video, but, there, we are talking about difference principles of signal transfer. Good composite can be acceptable for very short runs (such as behind your rack, between components) but is hopeless for long runs. S-video is much better; component better again. But great cables are cheap to manufacture - it is the snake-oil that costs the money. When you get to DVI and HDMI (I am not there) be aware that certain makers essentially have a retail monopoly and can charge what they like. Prices for these cables will drop, soon, and the quality will not. That's about it. Except "hardcore science" is not 50:50 subjective: measurable. It is 100% both, and, more important, repeatable and testable : "objective" if anything we have ever is. I think physics and philosophy agree on this. When Audioquest writes nonsense as follows (I quote from Joe, May 16, above, with thanks) then the most important thing we can learn is not to believe them - on any subject whatsoever. They have declared themselve to be fools, or knaves. I do not use the word "bullshit" lightly, but here it is, again, undiluted. After all, you can't measure it, so how can you possibly hear it? In fact you can hear it - and it really is very easy to hear the differences. Far from making bogus claims, the principle of cable "break in" is very real. "Breaking in" a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion. The cable is now said to be "broken in" and sound quality is improved. Remember; "BBB". Bullshit Baffles Brains. |
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Dave Kersten Unregistered guest | I understand what you are saying about the money thing. The 10-15% is a rule of thumb, but in MOST circumstances, including audioquest IMO, you get what you pay for. Once again, if I had not heard the differences myself, I would not believe it. The audioquest quote I think is talking about the insulator between the center conductor and the outter conductor. In a video application, the insulation has an impedance of 75 ohm. In an audio application, I honestly dont know what the impedance is, but I am sure that after much experimentation with different insulators, they came up with a good value to work off of. The molecular make-up of the material that the conductor is surrounded by will affect the way the signals transmit. This sort of thing gets a bit beyond my scope of knowledge, but then again, so does long grained copper conductors, which they use as well. I stick by my opinion that while the explanation sounds like a big snowjob, it is probably the best their PR dept could come up with to translate their R&D's actual research into terms that people will understand just enough of to go "wow this stuff is cool", or in your case "what a crock of bullshit" (or however you put it hehe). Bottom line, these guys know enough about this stuff to make a 50,000 dollar amp and a 130,000 dollar set of speakers sound better than if you just used monster cable.. But in the case of those of us that dont have millions to blow on stuff like that, there is no need to buy into it. I am assembling a theater again for the first time in years, and I am not budgeting a lot for it. I picked up a Marantz sr5000, got an infinity 12" bu2 sub pretty cheap, have a set of NHT superzeros for rear fill, and was shopping for a set of m&k 125's for the l/c/r but that fell through, so in the interest of budget I am picking up some cheap Polk stuff that the local stereo shop is liquidating. For interconnects, I am probably gonna go pick up a roll of 16 ga monster cable, and some basic rca stuff for the sub and the ac3 cables. I will have spent a total of about 800 dollars of equipment, and will still probably hit over a hundred on speaker wire alone. I might jump the quality of speaker cable if I got the m&k's I wanted, but for some polk audio, it just isnt warranted.. besides, this is a purely HT system.. not music.. matter of fact, my rear surrounds I prewired with basic 14 ga 4 conductor in-wall wire when I built the room, so the monster will only go from wall plates to speakers/components. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1463 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave, Thanks. That sounds like a really good system. I was tempted to included a photo of the cables of all sorts (I dare not count them) connected to the back of my receiver. In the end I put is earlier today on another thread, where someone new, "Ojophile" wanted to know which cables to get. I directed him here, too. It is just to illustrate that anyone could easily spend more on cables than equipment. NAD - To be or not to be? Best wishes. |
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Unregistered guest | Kegger, I guess this is another area we don't agree on. You say: "obviously everyone has there thought on speaker wire and interconects. i personally believe once you have descent cables there is no sonic difference in the ultra expensive ones compaired to the good quality ones. to me it is just a marketing ploy so the cable companies can make huge profits" Again, if your listening to a speaker system that smears time and phase, of course your not going to hear cable improvements. How could you? Def Tech speakers have huge phase problems, as do all dipole and bipole speakers. Again, listen to a true time/phase aligned speaker. I think you'll change your mind about cables after that. My own speakers(Green Mountain Audio) are VERY revealing of interconecting cables. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message. |
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Unregistered guest | Hmmmmmmm.......Kegger needs a college education on Hi-fi. Here we go again. You say:"my personal oppinion james is that speakers are the most important part of your system. if you don't like the way they sound nothing you can do before the sound comes out of them will matter" Yes, speakers are important, Kegger, but keep in mind a speaker cannot possibly improve upon the signal it's being sent. Hence the old "Garbage in= garbage out analogy. Hypothetical situation: You have an ok system, nothing great....just ok. Lets say, for grins and giggles, a JVC reciever, Kenwood CD, and oh say, Cerwin Vega speakers. Hows it sound? Eh.....ok. Not great. You follow your logic. Lets replace those C/V's with a pair of, oh say Legacy Focus 20/20's. Now, how does it sound? Better? In your dreams. MUCH WORSE! WHY? Because the Legacy speaker is now revealing each and every fault with each and every component preceding it(And there are MANY). The ONLY thing you changed was the speakers, right? So, now your viewpoint is this: Legacy 20/20's are CRAP! Are they? You cannot be sure. You need to upgrade the source first, then pre-amp, then amp and last, and yes least, the speakers. Don't believe me? No worries. You will. Once you have wasted, er........spent enough money on mistakes. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe..........pass the pipe dude. Can I have some of what your smoking? Your comments border on absurd. Phase is not easily measured, nor is it understood by even the vast majority of audio engineers. However, your(and my) brain is keenly acute of phase issues. Example: Imagine yourself 5,000 years ago. Your walking leisurely and suddenly an arrow goes wizzing by your head. Trust me, it happened.......many times. Now, my question: Is it more important for you to know A) what frequency that arrow is at or B) what direction it was coming from so you can run as fast as possible in the OTHER direction? Fact of the matter is our ears are MUCH more sensitive to phase issues than anything else. One other little tidbit: Besides synth's, almost every piece of music you and I listen to is recorded via a microphone. Interesting devices, mic's are. Interesting to note that a microphone can hear only one thing: DISTANCE. Distance is time. Time is phase. Get my drift? Smear the time/phase...lose the musical intent. Simple as that, my friend. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 39 Registered: May-04 | Wow! This post is off the hook! But I love it!. I would like to say that I did finally attain a set of Def Tech speakers (BP2004s and CLR 2300). They sound great! It's funny that we are on this wire thing, because the guy who sold me the speakers seemed to be an expert in the matter. He brought up a good point that I agree with. RELATIVITY. It's like this. Look in your pocket book. How much money do you have and how much can you afford to spend on cables? Step one. Here's my theory for wire selection. 1. What do you listen to? 2. What is the financial thresh hold amout? What I mean is this... I have BP2004s. I would be an idiot to go spend 600.00 on some wire...why? For that same amountI can upgrade to BP2002s or something! There is no way a wire upgrade is going to beat a drastic speaker upgrade! Def techs with 1000.00 wire will not beat out a pair of top end paradigms with really good wire. They just won't! That's like putting a turbo charger on a mustang GT and aasking it to wup on a Ferrari. Now, another thought. If I have a pair of 10,000 speakers...I must be rich, there-fore let me buy some $1000 wire to go with em , just so I can tell some chick I wanna bang, "hey...my wire is worth a thousand bucks"! This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to keep this moster cable for now and try to cop these BP2002s and sell the 2004s ( unless the 2004s are better for some reason). Then I will look for some high end cables on clearance somewhere or on ebay for a 100-150...then , I'm going to get some sleep! :-)) |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 538 Registered: Dec-03 | maui we are and many others going to disagree about cables forever, that is fine you have your thoughts and i have mine. but when i said speakeres are the most important yes i and many others believe that. i think were me or you might have gotten the wrong idea was. maybe i was wrong for looking at it this way! i was taking it from the standpoint of having descent electronics in the first place.to once you have descent electronics than a speaker will make more of a difference than a better piece of electronics. i was taking it for granted that the electronics would be upgrated to something descent so speakers were a bigger issue. yes if you have crap electronics no speaker is really going to sound any better.(i agree) so my theory on system building would be descent electronics and cables first.then you can listen for yourself what speakers sound good to you. and if you decide to upgrade in the future, to me speakers will make a bigger difference than any piece of electronics or cable. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 539 Registered: Dec-03 | but as i said i was taking for granted that the electronics and cables would be descent allready. or upgraded when it came time to do speaker auditions. so i guess what i mean is their isn't really any order as to how you do it. you could by them at the same time pick out your electronics,get the speakers you want then get the descent cables. or if you allready have the setup and have good electronics and cables then you can audition the speakers. or if you find speakers you want you could get them then buy your electronics and cables. it doesn't matter what order you buy them in just keep in mind it won't sound the way you want it to until all the pieces fit. but again to me speakers are the most important. if you don't like the sonic's of a particular speaker changing the electronics and or cables won't matter. |
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Bronze Member Username: DrumsuckSt. johns, Newfoundland Canada Post Number: 26 Registered: May-04 | my personal experience has led me to believe that interconnects can make a huge difference in sound quality, but only when the source is a high-resolution audio signal. I use Monster Cable 300MKII's on my turntable and dvd/cd player (my dvd player is garbage, however... soon to be replaced with a solid dedicated CD deck) and I use cheap RCAs on my tape deck because tape sounds like butt no matter what. Now, I realize that Monster Cable isn't the best there is or anything, but the 300s sound a whole lot better than standard RCA cables. To me, especially for the turntable, the cables are worth it. If I had infinite amounts of cashflow, I'd probably use some Kimber Kable interconnects because they have a nice open sound to them. I've tried the Acoustic Research budget-priced models ($20/pair) and to me they don't sound very good. As far as I'm concerned, speaker wire makes the least amount of difference in a system compared to all of the other variables. That's not to say that they don't make a difference, because they do. However for me, it's not a huge one. I use Ultralink 12ga speaker wire and they sound fine. Kimber 4PR cable sounds only slightly better to me, and even then its possible that I'm 'believing' that there's a difference where there actually isn't. Speaker wire has the easiest job in your system. It gets to carry the strongest signal in your stereo from point a to point b. I would suggest using banana plugs on the ends of the cables, however, and even soldering the plugs to the wire to give a really solid connection. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 311 Registered: Dec-03 | Kegger...Maui, Let me throw in my thoughts if I may. I think Maui is absolutely correct on how you should build a system. Let me relate my own experience. Several years ago I decided to get in to HT. So I built a 5.1 system of an Aragon 8008x3 for the front 3 channels, and an Acurus 200x3 for the rears. All switching and processing are thru a Proceed AVP. The DVD player at the time was a Toshiba 3108. I have Def/Tec BP30's for fronts, BP10's for rears, C1000 center, and Velodyne F1500 servo sub. Everything is wired with Kimber PBJ interconnects, and Mapleshade speaker cable. How does the system sound for HT? KILLER! How does it sound for music, with a CAL C20 cd player. LIKE CRAP! It got to the point where I was listening to less and less music. Why? In this case, the weak link for music is the speakers. Like Maui said-huge phase problems. For HT this is not critical, but very much so for music. This is why I have already gone thru Maggies, and now home evaluating OHM micro talls. I know what I am searching for, I just haven't heard it yet. When I do I will share it with you all, I promise. I think I'll keep my HT system for what it is.....a good HT system. I'm thinking of building a new music only system ( 2 channel stereo) and put it in a music only listening room. I am thinking of starting with an integrated tube amp. Any thoughts anyone? |
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Mr. V Unregistered guest | You are correct that a HT system is less than optimal for music playback. I have a music only system in my listening room, and it is wonderful. Why would you want to start with an integrated tube amp? Separates are the way to go, well sorted out, placed on a quality rack. Do what I did: buy used gear. I am fortunate to have a vendor nearby, who lets me demo whatever I want, whenever I want. Through his largesse (business acumen, actually) I was able to try many amps, preamps, DACs, speakers and cables, in search of my own sonic Nirvana. I have a great system for about 1/3 the cost of new. He still made a profit; works for me. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 544 Registered: Dec-03 | well to a certain degree i would agree with you rick. some speakers/designs can be better for music and or better for home theatre.and can be very difficult to make a setup work for both. but it still comes down to the speakers when it's all said and done doesn't it? meaning that if you've got all the electronics and cables correct but don't have the right speakers you won't get the sound you want will you? so again doesn't it make the speakers most important? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 545 Registered: Dec-03 | I guess it really comes down to this! WHAT HAS MORE OF A SONIC SIGNATURE TO IT. cables. electronics. speakers. in my oppinion the speakers do. am i wrong on this? maui? rick? anyone? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 312 Registered: Dec-03 | Mr V, I put together my system with a lot of "gently used gear". As you can see I already have great electronics. I haven't owned a tube amp in 30 years. I was thinking about an integrated amp to keep expenses down. So how about say a 30-50w integrated amp, my California Audio labs CL20, and a pair of ?????. That's my downfall. I want something warm and sweet, accurate, detailed, and image like crazy............. |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 40 Registered: May-04 | OHHHHH NOOOOO! I just connected up my Def tech BP2004s to my Pioneer ELite VSX-43tx. Guess what??? My Reciever keeps cutting off when I increase the volume past -6. I just found out that the DEF TECH speakers are rated between 4-8 ohms. We know that the lowest impedance of the Pioneer is 6ohms. Does anyone know of anything I can do to make the Reciever and the speakers talk to each other????? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 557 Registered: Dec-03 | james i can't find any info on your 2004s speakers. can you post a link where i can check out the specs. i can't find them on the def tech website! anyway's -6 is up awfully high isn't it. if i crank my hk that high i'll be blowing the doors off the house. but then again my speakers are pretty effiecient. the only thing i can think off the top of my head right now would be use a 2 channel amp from the preouts of your reciever if it has them, which it probably does. i know that obviously this adds to the price of your system but it should also add to the quality of your system also. you should be able to pick up a descent 2 channel 100watt a channel amp at a good price. that should be sufficent for your needs. many people are selling their their 2 channel stuff for multi channel/surround setups. so you should be able to find some quality used gear at a discounted price.try ebay or audiogon! |
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Bronze Member Username: DjtorchPost Number: 46 Registered: May-04 | I tired to find them too! All they have listed are the newer ones. I'm starting to think Denon now. The Pioneer seems a bit temper mental. I never had this problem with my Onkyo and it was half the price! |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 558 Registered: Dec-03 | to be honest james a 2 channel amp may be a better choice than a new reciever. many recievers have issues with lower impedance speakers. and by getting an amp could be the start of the move to seperate components. once you get enough amp channels then you can by a good preamp and start putting together something really nice. |
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peach Unregistered guest | Kegger, what speakers do you use with your HK that will blow the doors off? And what HK? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 561 Registered: Dec-03 | it's an hk 525 with klipsch and jbl. (homemade subs) the speakers have some modifications, xovers/wiring and a few driver changes.but basically the same original effecincy. both are very effecient speakers. and work very well in my home theatre setup. and about as far as i turn it up is -20 and that is pretty darn loud. you can get a lot more volume by having efficent speakers than you can with bigger amps. but -6 is quite high on the volume control. i just wonder if the reciever is having trouble powering all the speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rh1Post Number: 57 Registered: Jun-04 | In regards to "efficient" speakers. What level would you guys consider efficient? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 562 Registered: Dec-03 | i would consider 90 to be the starting point. 95 would be very efficent. 100 or higher extremley efficent! |
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Bronze Member Username: Rh1Post Number: 59 Registered: Jun-04 | Thanks. Does more efficiency improve sound? Or is it simply a matter of less stress on the amplifier? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 568 Registered: Dec-03 | no effeicency has nothing to do with quality of sound. some will say less efficent speakers generally sound better.and some will just shrug it off. to each their own! basically efficency is just how sound comes out of the speaker vurses how much power goes in. it just takes less power to make a more efficent speaker louder. |
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peach Unregistered guest | Kegger, Have you posted about your Klipsch speakers before. I would be interested in your opinion. I have the HK 325 with a set of Polk RTi floorstanders, but I am not quite satisfied with the sound. I have thought about a 2 ch. amp for more and cleaner power, but I think I probably need to settle on the speakers I want first. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 579 Registered: Dec-03 | peach klipsch speakers are not for everyone. most if not all klipsch speakers use a horn or horns in their designs and some people don't like the sound of a horn. personally i feel horns work extremely well for surround/movies. and i have gotten use to the horn sound and can appreciate what they sound like. most klipsch speakers handle large ammounts of power and are very efficent. so they can be very loud and dynamic. which works extremely well for movies. but some don't like them for music. so if you are considering klipsch i suggest you do some good auditioning and preferably in your own home. now i'm not trying to sway you from getting them. i just wanted you to be aware that they are very different than most speakers. and the hk recievers go very nice with klipsch as they tend to be bright so the hk can tame them a little.pioneer elite and marantz work well also. their are many grades of klipsch speakers also. you can buy the cheap ones at best buy. or the reference series at high end shops. for me the only way to go is the reference series. if you go any lower than the reference series the horns don't sound as good and the bass is flabby. |
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peach Unregistered guest | Kegger, Thanks for the answer. It sort of reinforced what I had already thought based on listenting to the best buy Klipsch series. Are there speakers that you would recommend for mostly music to go with HK. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 585 Registered: Dec-03 | i have been a little out of the loop lately on speakers as i havn't gone to listen to many since mine are doing fine. but a basic rule that many follow when it comes to h/k is that bright speakers are generaly used. the combination of a warm h/k and bright speaker works very well. that is not to say only use a bright speaker but you can on an h/k where if you use a bright speaker on say a yamaha it will more than likely sound to bright for just about anyone. personally i like my setup to be just slighly on the bright side. so brighter speakers on the h/k are just tamed enough for me. probably some of the brightest speakers would be jbl and klipsch. both speakers have some excelent choices and some not so good lines. with these two you really need to move up towards their top of the line units or you just don't get much. i think def tech's and paradigm are nice speakers and most would consider them to be on the bright side. i really enjoy listening to some good B&W's but most of the ones i like are very expensive. and i have not tried them with an h/k. so those amungst many others could give you what you want. you just need to listen to them and don't take the oppinion of others as to what "you" should get! you can value someones oppinion and maybe even use it as a guide line if you wish. and as i have said everything in this post is my oppinion! and with anyones oppinion you need to keep that in mind and decide if you agree with it and use it accordingly. good luck to you and hope you find speakers for "you" ! |
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