Archive through May 19, 2006
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Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 98 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Art, It sounds like you are quite happy with the PL2. I'm tempted to order one w/o auditioning, but I'll have to have it sent cross country by way of the punt, pass, and kick routine of UPS or fedX. Don't want to hassle with damage claims or sending back if there are any problems. I'm also not into the constant upgrading that many seem to be, and want something I'll be able to live with for quite a while. If it is even close to the sound quality of the Carey it would probably be a good choice considering the price difference. Thanks again, -Bill |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2411 Registered: Dec-04 | Bill, the amp went on a hail-Mary to Art's dealer before he got it, you should be confident in the packing and the Great Pumpkin to see a safe arrival. As well, the package will be stickered with a violence-evident device.If it is tripped, simply refuse the shipment. Nuck. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3229 Registered: Feb-05 | I don't know Nuck. I never claimed to be a scientist but I know better sound when I hear it. I blind tested Sherilyn with the Signal Digital Reference vs the Cardas Twin link with my cd player and she was able to consistently tell me which one was in and and always preferred the Cardas. I tried all different combinations. With the Cardas on the cd player and the Kimber on the PL2 the sound left both Sherilyn and I with our mouths open. Sherilyn kept asking, has that always been on that cd, and I kept saying I think so?. It was a fun and painful (Signal Cable left my ears bleeding - not good synergy with my system) little experiment with a happy ending. The Signal Cables go back to New York and I'm a big believer in the power......... |
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Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 99 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Nuck, My last UPS package arrived with workboot footprints all over it indicating that someone was actually standing on top of it before it's arrival. No way to avoid it I guess. Just want to get as much info as possible to make a good choice before taking the plunge. Sounds like it might be worth the risk though. Thanks, -Bill |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2412 Registered: Dec-04 | I can't argue long distance with two good sets of ears, Art. The science and physics, I could, if there were a point, but there ain't.(cause ears win in our hobby). I take all under advisement, and send along a toast from Memphis. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2413 Registered: Dec-04 | Bill, your goods will be delivered as good as new, with abuse-evident packaging, no doubt. Do you think the shipper would send such a lovely piece of work via tasmanian devil? No way, man. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3230 Registered: Feb-05 | Cheers Mr Nuck, hope you're havin' a ball in Memphis! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2414 Registered: Dec-04 | Further, Bill, I am also considering the PL2, however assessing all others in Canadian$, and watching the$ closely. The Canuck buck may match and exceed the Greenback in the next year, which will open a plethoria of options. Stay tuned, a few other Northerners will watch closely as well. Dave&Tim? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4166 Registered: Dec-03 | Art;- Thanks for the recommendation of a better power cord. My dealer gave me a replacement for the one in the box, since it had a continental European plug (quite different). I am inclined to agree with Nuck on this, and he puts it well. You're an honest man and you generously share your experience, leaving me with the problem of how to account for what you describe. Wish we could compare what we hear directly. Also, with all thanks and due respect, I cannot think how a power cord needs to break in. Still, we live and learn. I have changed my mind on several issues as a result of reading and discussing, here. The whole idea of tubes seemed crazy to me until I followed Rick, Jan, and the other migrants from Old Dogs, onto this thread. I still have to try polishing CDs, too. I bought one fabulous-sounding CD today. Will try to find the right thread. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3231 Registered: Feb-05 | Well fella's it's my bedtime as I've reached another work week. I understand your skepticism as I was once a power cord skeptic. All of that was out the window this evening as the goosebumps rose on my arms as my system once again reached a new benchmark for performance and the music I love so much sounded better than ever. Goodnight all. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 186 Registered: Dec-05 | Hi Bill, Apologies for being late to the party, but I'll address as best I can your Cayin vs. PL vs. "Carey" (did you mean "Cary"?) question. Cayin & PL gear have a lot in common. Build-quality is absolutely top-rate on both, from the heavy chasis, ptp wiring, glossy, multi-coat paint, and the many components they have in common (Alps, Nicosen, WBT, etc.). They are also in right around the same league in sound quality and value, which is to say, the highest. Both brands, in my experience, are dead dead quiet as well, as others have pointed out. Each particular amp, due to its design and tube complement, has a unique sound, to some degree. My PL 3 does impart just a bit of thickness to the music, compared to something very open/fast, but OTOH the mids are the most lush and velvety I have heard. This is the most important quality to me. Switching out the PL 3 for anything else has resulted in a diminishing of this aspect, but again whether that's good or bad is really opinion. I've not had a chance to hear the PL integrateds - after experiencing the quality of the Cayin int I'm a bit sorry I didn't consider them more instead of the separates I bought. I am running the PL 3 pre with Cary (AES) Six Pacs, which is a wonderful combo indeed. I sold the PL 7 monoblocks I had previously only due to an insatiable desire to play, and a small preference to the Pacs sound, due to whatever reason (0 neg feedback, triode operation, ?). However, the Pacs are not dead quiet as the PL or Cayin gear - there is a bit of hum which I'm able to live with. The fit and finish quality are also much inferior (who cares). You really can't go wrong with Caying or PL. If you were inquiring about Cary/AES, I also believe it to be 1st-rate stuff. Cary proper is unmatchable for quality but not in the same price/performance bracket - you are paying for American manufacture and much finer finish (than AES, *not* Cayin/PL). AES is also very good value, and sounds the same as anything stamped "Cary" to me anyway. (Don't mean to steer you away from Cary - there are lots of good bargains on audiogon if you aren't afraid of used.) Once again, I think it very likely you would be quite pleased with any PL or Cayin integrated. Listen if you can, and you're lucky if you can. Paul |
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Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 100 Registered: Nov-05 | Paul, Thank you for your feedback. Yes, I did mean "Cary" SLI 80. If sound quality is not significantly different, then I think the Cayin or PL2 will suffice. Unfortunately, I can't auditon either of them. Do you need to open up the Cayin to bias? Does it have a pre-out? Also, how would you describe the difference in sound between the Cayin and PL? Sorry for all of the questions. Thanks, -Bill |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2420 Registered: Dec-04 | And Paul, do you like/trust the auto bias of the PL? (PL2 in this case). Art as well, how do you feel about the auto bias? Also is this feature defeatable? |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 187 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, is this good: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00025DYJW |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2421 Registered: Dec-04 | Paul, saving 4cents is always good. Better than my 2cents.(twice). |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 188 Registered: Dec-05 | I think the auto-bias is slick and wish the Cayin had it. It doesn't, and it isn't manually biased either - bias is fixed (I think that's NOT the right term) - meaning you never touch it. (This is nothing like the PL system, of course, which constantly keeps the bias optimal as the amp runs.) I know there's no way to turn off the PL autobias but there's no reason you'd ever want to either. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2422 Registered: Dec-04 | This PL2 is looking better and better. I would dearly love to hear it, to see if it fits my music tase and style. I didn't find a dealer in Toronto, perhaps a better search or a call is in order. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3234 Registered: Feb-05 | For me the auto bias is a blessing. No fuss just listen. Perhaps there will come a day when I would want the manual bias but I can't imagine why. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8407 Registered: May-04 | No hifi talk here, guys. PF - Yep! Bialetti is the originator of the modern stove top espresso pot. The price is good on this model though there are other brands which have duplicated the Bialettit technique and sell for either more or less depending on the physical style of the pot. I have the La Signora 6 cup, the Bialetti 9 cup "Brika" mocha pot which includes a pressurized stem for more crema, a Bialetti one cup pot and an unknown manufacturer's pot which replaces the upper metal pot with a ceramic pitcher. I also have a French press though I've never much cared for the coffee it produces. I use the La Signora everyday simply because I like the look and feel of the pot. I bought it at World Market, if you have one in your neighborhood, for about the same price as the Bialetti. I've also sent a nephew a pot similar to the Bialetti that I bought at the Mexican food store here in Dallas for $9.99. The stove top pots make espresso taste differently than a counter top espresso maker, they are easier to clean and are the preferred method for the home in Italy. Of course, the results you get depend on the coffee you use. I buy a double French roast that I get at a local market. It's a very dark roast, so it has a bit less caffiene than many other roasts, and has an very oily look in the canister. The taste is rich and finishes with a slightly bitter end. It doesn't keep well due to the oil content being released in the roasting process, so I buy it a pound at a time to last a week or so. For the stove top pots don't grind your coffee quite as finely as you would for an espresso maker or you'll end up with more grounds in your cup. I also replaced the gasket on my pot when it wore out with a higher temperature rubber that a gasket company in town cut for me. It makes a better seal for less pressure leaks when the pot is on the stove. There's no need to replace the gasket on a new pot but just something to keep in mind when the time comes. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8408 Registered: May-04 | Auto bias and fixed bias are basically the same creature. PL has adopted the McIntosh version of fixed bias and, with a slight twist, renamed it auto bias. They both serve the same function and adjust the bias by way of a circuit centered around the plate current draw which increases voltage slightly as the tubes age. There are, as usual, advantages and disadvantages to the fixed/auto bias scheme. Adjutable bias allows the user to trim the tubes to produce a "hotter" or "cooler" running amplifier and therefore sound quality. Remember, bias, in this case, adjusts where the tubes turn on and off during the push-pull cycle. So, adjustable bias allows the user to trim the amplifier more to the class A side of operation, with its attendant sound, heat and shortened tube life; or to trim to a cooler running amp with the same qualites in consideration. None of this can be done with fixed/auto bias without changing out resistors inside the amp. Non-adjustable bias does mean you do not require matched output tubes when you replace tubes, though the cost difference still makes it wise. However, even more so than with an adjustable amplifier, you must stay within the voltage range of any output tube you put in the amp. Placing a tube which prefers to run hotter in a fixed bias amp will degrade sound. Using a tube which can't tolerate the higher plate voltages of most fixed bias amps will result in premature, if not immediate, tube failure. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8409 Registered: May-04 | Also, the McIntosh, and therefore the PL, version of fixed bias is slightly different in where it is taken on the transformer tap than most fixed bias schemes and has some advantages most fixed bias amps don't possess. Though fixed bias is a good scheme of operation in a Unity Coupled amplifier, adjustable bias would be, in my opinion, more desireable in an UltraLinear amplifier. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2433 Registered: Dec-04 | Where would the SQ88 by SoundQuest fit in the mix here? 55wx2, auto bias, kt88's, with easy roll in via the auto bias? The use of kt88's seem like a natural for my musical tastes(?) and usage. It looks nice and I believe it can be had for 1k as opposed to the 1.5k list. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8413 Registered: May-04 | How about a web site. What do you mean by "fit in"? What makes it "look nice"? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2446 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.questforsound.com/amps/amps_sq88.htm Sorry, Jan. There is a link to a stereophile review that doesn't say much more than the spec sheet. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2447 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.questforsound.com/amps/amps_sq88.htm Sorry, Jan. There is a link to a stereophile review that doesn't say much more than the spec sheet. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8415 Registered: May-04 | Sorry, Nuck, the information doesn't say much. Whoever wrote the review seems to have never been around a tube amp before let alone listen through one. It might be a very good amplifier, but nothing I see indicates anything one way or the other. If you can listen before you buy, then it's worth the effort though the review continually points to the B&K amplifier sounding better in many areas. Possibly that is just the bias of someone who appears to be rather unfamiliar with tubes. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2454 Registered: Dec-04 | Yeah, sure reads that way. I'll scratch around a bit. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 190 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan - bout the espresso maker - I was nearly certain that was the type you had referred to somewhere back in the archives, but wanted to make sure. I coworker bought one recently and raves about it. I have yet to visit Italy, but will be in Rome in a couple days. Vacation. Well, more of a Catholic pilgramage actually, with my mom and girlfriend (no, really). I do hope to enjoy some fine espresso there. (I wish there was more 'personal' time, as I've always completely loved Italian culture, everything about it, and just want to soak it up.) Talk to you gents in a couple weeks, probably. (Nuck, I'd love to see you with some toobs by the time I get back. :-}) |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2473 Registered: Dec-04 | Another topic entirely... Input sensitivity. Aforementioned tube amp is rated input 290mv. To achieve max performance, I might want to use 270-275 output from a cdp for the amp. What would be the best way to modulate this(assuming the input had 320 or more capacity)? These numbers all seem kind of high, Perhaps 250 input and 300 max out from the cdp. cdp does not have volume control. As well, how would tubes in general respond to over input voltage as compared to a decent ss amp given the overinput? These specs are not always given. Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 191 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, If want an excellent passive, single-input line stage (volume control), do an eBay search on Axiom. About $150. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8426 Registered: May-04 | I assume when you say 275-320 you mean millivolts. The "250 input and 300 max out" means 250mV sensitivity. And, by "modulate" you mean change the overall volume and not modulate the voltage. First, you have to consider the output voltage quoted is maximum (the output voltage at any one moment is modulated by the signal) and full output voltage will not be reached in most situations. Second you should consider that 250mV sensitivity is fairly high and will have your volume control operating in its most non-linear range. Channel tracking can be a problem with most potentiometers in the lowest portion of their range. If you choose to go with a passive control device, you have to understand the limitations of passive units. There are typically no buffering circuits in a truly passive "pre amp" unless you use a transformer based unit. With no buffering, you initially have to assure yourself and your amplifier the CDP doesn't pass any DC voltage. Depending on the input filtering in the amplifier, a little bit of DC passed from the player to the amp can cause large DC offsets at the amplifier outputs. With an output transformer coupled amplifier, the problem is not what will happen to the speakers but rather what will happen in the amplifier itself. With no buffering to maintain a constant output impedance from the player, this value becomes dependent upon the relative position of the volume control and the cabling used. Most listeners find the lack of active circuitry appealing for its clarity but stall when they find the dynamics and frequency extension of the system can only be found at one, usually loud, listening level. Passive systems also limit your system set up to short (1 meter) cables with very low capacitance and inductance. The trend in passives has been to transformer coupled systems. The quality of the transformer then dictates the quality of sound and the best transformers aren't cheap. You can always try wiring up an Alps pot to your line out from the CDP and then determine if it will suit your system and tastes. That's the cheapest way to go, but not always the best approach. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 192 Registered: Dec-05 | Interesting, Jan. I was aware of all the limits and issues of passive linestages except the DC thing. I bought the Axiom unit as an experiment and it sounds great in my system, but I have indeed noticed I need moderately loud levels to get good sound. Do you have an op on autoformer-based linestages, such as the Sonic Euphoria unit? www.soniceuphoria.com |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2481 Registered: Dec-04 | I was asking because the spec sheet on the sq88 amp above was calling input at 290mv. Seems kinda high for some reason. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2482 Registered: Dec-04 | Covering up a Q with the pre-tubes? |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 193 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, an input sensitivity of 290mV is extremely *low* (which is good). This is the voltage the amp needs to develop full power. Most CDPs put out about 2V, as I'm sure you're aware. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2483 Registered: Dec-04 | Sure Paul, this where I have the Q. If I over input to the amp, how will this affect a tube vs. a ss amp? Neither is desirable, but how are inputs isolated in the tubes as compared to (idiot light) ss? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3246 Registered: Feb-05 | Well folks my experiments with tube dampers are over. They appear to alter the sound to a far greater degree than I thought they would. The changes are a mixed blessing and that is the problem. There never appears to be an improvement that isn't accompanied by a negative change which leads to an even bigger problem.....imbalance. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 194 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, Sorry - I misunderstood the gist of your inquiry. As for overdriving... just don't turn up the volume all the way. Virtually any tube amp has an input sensitivity well below 2V so feeding it a source or preamp signal at full strength is not likely to be a good idea - but why would you do that? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2484 Registered: Dec-04 | Paul, it's in my nature. The amp in question is http://www.questforsound.com/amps/amps_sq88.htm and I questioned the input range, leading to my Q. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8427 Registered: May-04 | "Do you have an op on autoformer-based linestages, such as the Sonic Euphoria unit?" No, never heard it and I don't know anything about it other than what we can both read. Semantics are misleading here. The 290mV sensitivity is a high sensitivity which means the amp will be driven to full power by a low level of voltage at the inputs. But 290mV is extremely low. I have no idea why the sensitivity would be so high. Tubes will be a bit more forgiving than soild state here, but this is a level that would seem to be asking for the inputs to be overdriven. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2488 Registered: Dec-04 | And I be not-understaning the last post, Jan. The higher output, which could be biased, into fixed-max input to an amp might work? I am trying not to press any part past 90%nomminal, unless thats where the fun is. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 195 Registered: Dec-05 | Art - surprised about the tube dampers. Never have read of them causing *problems*. Kinda hard to imagine how dampening vibration-induced microphonics could ever be *detrimental*. Not doubting you. Can you elaborate on what you heard? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2499 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, did the 'chastity rings'slow things down? |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 196 Registered: Dec-05 | lol |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3249 Registered: Feb-05 | http://www.magnan.com/pages/tweaks/tubedampers.html I tried the last 2 dampers mentioned and still experienced some of the negative effects mentioned above. The description of the problems with the 3M's is very accurate. The bass appeared to be exaggerated, midrange lost much of the warmth I had experienced and enjoyed, and the high end was bright. On the positive side the soundstage was huge which only tended to exaggerate all of the other problems. The FEP teflon coated silicone o-rings didn't fit as tight and were easier to apply. The sound was better as well. The best way I can describe what I heard was that the instruments sounded out of proportion to each other. The sound with both dampers was more focused and clear but instruments lost some of their naturalness and sounded a bit plastic. It's difficult to describe. Changing out the stock power cord is the most beneficial thing I know of to improve the amp. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2504 Registered: Dec-04 | Difficult to describe sounds like the hobby/affliction we all share. Just a little bit of... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4171 Registered: Dec-03 | June HiFi News has an article on tube/valve dampers/coolers and,after a lot of measurements, reaches much the same conclusion as you, Art. The microphony comes in by vibrating the filament inside, so adding mass to the glass wall can affect that, but it is difficult to predict how. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2509 Registered: Dec-04 | Are pre/inputs more or less affected by the microphony? Or is the damping most effective on the oputputs? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8428 Registered: May-04 | All tubes are microphonic to some extent. And there is a general trade off between how ruggedly built the tube is vs. how it sounds. That's a gross generalization since some military tubes were designed to be quite rugged in construction while operating effectively in a highly microphonic situation. Then there are military tubes which are merely hi-spec items, often rather fragile in their design, and are meant for a rock solid installation where microphonics have been all but engineered out of the installation. Tube dampers will result in varying degrees of "improvement" depending upon, as usual, many factors. Most importantly would be how microphonic the tubes are and how much the listener enjoys the amount of "bloom" and "air" in the tube sound. When tube dampers where first brought onto the consumer market in the late 1980's, the results were mixed. Small signal tubes are the most effective application for dampers. (In general outputs run much hotter and will damage most materials used for dampers. Some dampers are specifically designed for outputs and will normally not be a simple slip on device. Due to the physical size of the capsule, outputs are typically not as prone to microphonics. Though, as I said, all tubes are microphonic to some degree.) Some people postulated the problem with dampers is they remove some of the qualities that make tubes more interesting that solid state. Beyond the usual argument for even order harmonics giving a thermionic valve its "tubiness", the addition of some microphonics seems to add to the enjoyment of tubes as amplification devices. I don't know that this was ever followed up to prove or disprove any ideas, but it was presented. But, as Art has discovered, tubes do change their sound when you apply dampers and change with the material and the application techniques employed. Even though the dampers you have might not suit your taste, there might be another sort which works wonders in your system. As with turntables, tubes can bring out the obssessive/compulsive side of an audiophile. Art, or anyone else interested in trying an experiment, I would suggest you try a few tests before giving up on the tube dampers. First, find which tubes are the most microphonic in your system. The simplest test for this is to tap the tube along the length of the capsule with the eraser end of a pencil with the volume advanced partially. Any tube that rings can probably use some help. (In a worst case scenario, tubes can be so microphonic that shouting toward the surface of the amplifier will cause them to react as microphones and you will hear your voice through the speakers.) After you have found any tube(s) which might require some assistance from a damper, apply the dampers selectively. Apply the dapmers at different heights on the tubes. I place my dampers down low where the tube actually meets the socket, sometimes the dampers are on the surface mount socket (which my pre amp uses) and not the tube itself. Some of my tubes have benefitted from two dampers at different heights. Your effort should be aimed at bringing out the best qualities of damped tubes and the best qualities of undamped tubes. This can get a bit A/R but can also benefit the system. How much work you put into this is up to you as you will likely find some pieces of music which do better with the dampers and some which prefer to ring a bit. Even if you think tube dampers are not beneficial to your system, I would still investigate minimizing the vibrations which enter the amp through its supports. Stop the mechanical vibrations and tube dampers become less important. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3250 Registered: Feb-05 | Yep Jan I tried many of the things you mention above. Different dampers, different numbers of dampers per tube, different positions on the tubes and on and on. As you stated some variations sound better than others but in the end I prefer the naked tube. The dampers aren't going anywhere so I may try again sometime, but not for awhile. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2514 Registered: Dec-04 | High Viton o-rings, might be just the ticket, assorted sizes, available at the pep boys or auto supply. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 182 Registered: Jun-05 | "For anyone new to tubes, I suggest you research and employ three things. Isolation from vibration, clean power and tube cooling. All tubes are microphonic and getting the equipment isolated from the resonant field of airborne or mechanical vibrations will go a long way to improving your sound. Clean power should be a no brainer for anyone using tubes. Tube cooling will benefit both sound quality and tube life." if i may jump back in, i've just finished reading the entire back catalogue of 'tube talk' pages. still a few questions if thats o.k. isolation from vibration: plan to put amp out of sight of tweeters, and in a bass null.(is is more HF or LF that causes microphony?). will build a sand box with wood or granite slab on top, possibly with neoprene layer or squashballs and another layer of mdf on top of that for the amp to rest on. sound o.k? tube cooling: will look into quiet fan. and pearl tube coolers. it seems to me though jan, that putting the amp downstream of the fan would be better? air moving at a higher velocity than putting amp at the intake side of the fan. clean power: that one i'm still wondering about. i'm hoping to one day get a dedicated line from the breaker box for amp and cd player. i believe getting it its own ground to a copper rod in the garden is also a good idea. have just ordered(unheard) a Consonance PW-1 Audio Grade Mains Filter. i figured i needen some lightning protection moving to brisbane and wanted to hear if emi/rfi filtering had anything to add. this was the only affordable option i could find in scandanavia. all else i'm thinking i could do is try aftermarket mains cable as i've seen recommended in this thread recently. unfortunately the brands recommended only have U.S style plugs i'm guessing. not much choice in the shops here, and there is no audiogon equivalent that i know of this side. but i think the mains block i'm getting has universal plug-holes so it might allow shopping over the atlantic. i'f i'm missing something please chip in. thanks guys. b get my pl2 tomorrow |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4172 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan, Short point 1; Australian power plugs and sockets are unlike those in continental European, in UK, and in US. However, the mains voltage (~240) and frequency (50 Hz) is the same as in Europe. One can always change a plug. There is no universal "plug hole". I would not invest in mains filters etc. until you know where you will use them. Short point 2; Concerning microphony, first, just try different locations for the amp relative to the speakers, and see what the effect is. Take it a step at a time (advice I have trouble taking myself...). If you do not have speaker cables long enough to experiment, that might be a place to start. Good luck with PL2! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 183 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks john. "plug hole" not the propper term i know. i meant on filter not the wall. here's what it says: it has 4 output sockets in total, these being the usual universal sockets (white), which could take any mains plug (UK/Euro/Australian/USA)." this should have me covered no? good point about long speaker cables, i'l start looking. b |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2528 Registered: Dec-04 | Keep those speaker leads in equal lengths, Bvan. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 184 Registered: Jun-05 | will do thanks nuck. what speaker cable brand is the next question. this part i dont enjoy- the idea of auditioning speaker cable is too much for me. suggestions welcome. b does it matter if tubes stand a degree or two off verticle? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2534 Registered: Dec-04 | Bvan, just go to Ikea and get a spool of 12g rip cord. How long is your run? The speaker wire monster could rear it's ugly head again, but the cheap stuff works, and may be a baseline for anything else you get.Cheap. I might guess that the filiments inside the tubes would be best fully leveled. However, the tube gear has been fully proven over thousands of Roadie miles, for years on end. I might suppose that new HQ gear is a bit more sensitive, but how much I wonder? |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 185 Registered: Jun-05 | thats what i like to hear nuck. please no one now chime in that i need to spend over $100 for wire b |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2537 Registered: Dec-04 | I meself am going to pull out the entire stack for an outside event, and will DJ it. I need speaker wire(mine are in the ceiling) so i have been lurking about for a 100m spool. I do not need to spend big money, and yes, better wire will play better, but that is the last money I will ever spend. Even length runs will be fine. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 186 Registered: Jun-05 | question regarding those pearl tube coolers. the speace between output tubes on the pl2 is about the width of my baby finger. anyone familiar with the coolers think this will be enough? cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8437 Registered: May-04 | You can get a measurement off the Pearl website, I believe. That should tell you what to expect. Offhand I would say that's plenty of room. Isolation is whatever works in your system. Sand boxes are very effective. Susceptibility to microphonics will be determined mostly by the position of the amplifier relative to both mecehanical and airborne vibration. For the most part, low frequencies will be more disruptive to the amplifier than higher frequency content. Fans should be placed to intake air from the tubes. The exhaust should draw air away from the tubes and convection should draw cooler air across the tubes. Velocity is not usually required as much as just having air movement. Higher velocity does normally equate to higher ambient noise levels. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 187 Registered: Jun-05 | trying to think what to type but the pl2playing mark lanegan is proving damn distracting! i've never heard such evocative vocals in all my life. i'm convinced first track on 'bubblegum' has got to be heard on tubes to believed. magic. usefull stuf jan, thanks. thinking about the fan thing though, air velocity is higher on the downstream/exhaust side of the fan which would allow for a slower running(therefore quieter) fan no? or am i missing something in my reasoning. b. going to keep the 8ohm taps going for another few weeks before switching to 4ohm where i've got a feeling i'll stay. btw, its one of my tubes i was wondering whether needs be completely upright, not the whole amp being levelled. one of the 4 tubes is a bit off verticle. not quite the leaning tower of pizza, but still enough to make a neurotic ask the question. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8440 Registered: May-04 | A slight lean will affect aesthetics but should not prove detrimental to performance. As with lamps, most tubes can be run either horizontal, vertical, upright or upside down. There are some exceptions but they will be noted in the tube's information sheets. Placing the fan's intake toward the tubes will take advantage of convection and the rising heat that builds up. Drawing cooler air across the tubes will offer better cooling if the air flow can be directed to draw air across all the tubes. If you're using a tube cage where the ends of the cage are closed, you might do better by blowing air across the tubes. Otherwise, blowing the exhaust at the tubes usually cools some of the tubes more effectively than others and can result in uneven temperatures in the tubes. Placing the fan on the hot side of the tubes hopefully draws the same amount of cool air across all the tubes. Determine what your situation is and proceed from there. Not being an engineer I could stand to be corrected here, but I don't believe air velocity can be any greater on the exhaust side of the blades than on the intake side. The air is moving through the fan at an even speed and the fan is not creating additional velocity. However, the shape of the blades can be used to focus the exhausted flow of air. If that is correct, velocity is the same on both sides of the blades. With the shape of the blades directing the air flow the velocity could be higher at a given location and distance on the exhaust side, but the air still has to come into the fan at a given rate to go out at a given rate. By drawing air from all directions, the intake side of the fan should be able to draw cooler air across all the tubes. The exhaust will only focus a flow of air towards a certain area. If that area is not broad enough to cover all the tubes in your amplifier, you will have uneven cooling. The force of convection should assist the fan in drawing cool air across all the tubes when the fan is exhausted away from the tubes. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 188 Registered: Jun-05 | feel better now, thanks. hadnt thought about cooling some tubes more than others. the volume of air entering and leaving the fan will be the same, but the way i picture it is that the fan will draw from a wider area, and output the air in a narrower stream. agree you dont want that stream to be so narrow that it doesnt cover all tubes evenly. also, the townstream air that the fan outputs will be more turbulant, possibly adding microphonic vibrations. b, |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4176 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan, You can just move the tube. Maybe it became unseated a little, in transport. Do it when it is cold. Did your amp come with white gloves? They are for us neurotics, so no fingerprints are left on the glass. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2551 Registered: Dec-04 | Bvan, the mass airflow is measured with an aerovolumeter. The exiting air, at speed is more efficient and more predictable, given a constant flow, than incoming air. A tube cage can be better for controlling incoming air , but still not as controlled for exhaust air. The 'blow through' air is the best for controlled temps, a venturi vortec cooler is one up yet.(remotely mounted, they are noisy). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8442 Registered: May-04 | And, finally, I hope, the noise of the fan is not related directly to volume or velocity of air flow. The amount of resistance at the intake and resultant pressure at the exhaust are going to determine the noise of the fan beyond the basic motor noise. This will be determined by the size, shape, speed and pitch of the blades. What I have suggested in the past is those of us living in 120Volt countries find a 220Volt fan. The fan will turn at roughly half speed and produce significant air flow while producing significantly less noise. Cooling tubes, or transistors, doesn't require large amounts of air flow. The air simply has to move the hot air away from the tube surface, or across the heatsinks of a transistor, at a rate faster than convection alone will allow. At some point increasing the C.F.M. only increases ambient noise and can no longer reduce the temperature of the tube which has a glowing ember inside its envelope. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2554 Registered: Dec-04 | The switch -pitch, DRD fan is just the ticket. Motor noise has long since been repaired, the pitch noise is the larger issue. The switch-pitch is tailorable, and can be made to be silent. Thank-you 1964 Buick. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8443 Registered: May-04 | 1964? That would be back in the days when GM actually engineered new products. Today they rely on heated washer fluid as a selling point for the Buick line. What else can you do when you're busy laying off employees? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4178 Registered: Dec-03 | Well, you can buy up other companies. Actually GM-owned European-made cars have always been pretty good, for mass-market vehicles (called things like Opel; in UK, Vauxhall). Now, I think, GM also owns the likes of Saab and Lancia. Parallels with HiFi. If the big guys buy up brand loyalty and recognition, they still have to deliver the goods. There are plenty of audio equivalents of heated washer fluid, too. Judging from this forum, and reviews I read, the American HiFi independents are still independent, and make fine things. Take Martin Logan, McIntosh, and many others. They are all up-market, of course. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4180 Registered: Dec-03 | Just heard GM is planning to lay off Vauxhall workers at Ellesmere Port. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1276 Registered: May-05 | McIntosh is no longer independant. They were bought by Denon/Marantz a few years ago, and I think they were sold recently to someone else. While they still design and manufacture their stuff independantly, hopefully it'll stay that way. Then again, when your financial 'mother' is telling you to cut costs and be more productive, how long can you realistically tell them no? |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 197 Registered: Jun-05 | saw in current hifi news magazine (british) a second-part article on tube microphony. they tested 3 brands of dampers and had quite a few graphs. didnt have time to read it unfortunately but will get it from the library soon. b |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4181 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan, My view of the "bottom line" is above, "Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 05:30 am" Stu Pitt, Thanks. I did not know that. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 199 Registered: Jun-05 | sorry, doing it again. one thing that cought my eye that i thought interesting, that having the cage over the tubes reduced microphony. (though obviously at a cost of loss of tube life due to heat.) does increased heat effect sound quality at all i'm wondering? b |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8446 Registered: May-04 | Bias voltage sets the operating temperature of the plates and thus the tubes. The ambient temperature around the tubes has little effect on the performance of the amplifier unless the heat build up is excessive. At that point the amplifier begins to react as if the bias voltage has been cranked up and runs as if it is biased closer to class A operation. This might sound desirable but it is uncontrollable and in the extremes of this condition the amplifier reacts with less headroom, therefore distortion sets in faster and more aggressively. This would occur in very extreme situations due to ambient temperature alone as most amps are biased with sufficient headroom unless the user has made a very poor choice in tube selection. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2699 Registered: Dec-03 | What do you tube heads think yur doin now? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4187 Registered: Dec-03 | It is a long story, Kegger. Let me introduce Kegger, tube head himself. For credentials, see the early archived threads, here. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8455 Registered: May-04 | How's it going, Kegger? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2702 Registered: Dec-03 | Well here's my latest ampinstein creation that I've modded up. I'm not taking all the credit here. It's an St-70 with a tubes4hifi input board sporting a pair of 12bh7's as phase inverters and a 12au7 driver, then for the outputs it's new production 350B tubes copied from the old WE tubes, newly released. I've put a lot of work/trial and error in this thing but she sure sounds sweet! It's got a little of the 300B SET magic with a hint of the ST-70 of old but the grunt of a new beefier power supply type amp and she's pretty darn linear. Nice frequency extension at both ends, gutsy amp with a beautiful midrange. Works really well on speakers with around 90db ef and a nice 8ohm load. (ADS L880)  |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2703 Registered: Dec-03 | I'm doing allright Jan, and yourself? I believe this ST-70 (the only one I have left) is one from you Jan. The input board is also a power supply board plus it has individual bias for all outputs. Then there's a few mods to it that a friend and I conspired on plus even more capacitance in the power supply. She gets great bass and sounds very powerful but yet still delicate. The one upgrade/improvement I still want to do is a more heavy duty power trannie, she does get quite warm and research says it is running pretty much at tolerance. It's now a pretty well tweaked design with really good quality parts throughout including the exotic caps and resistors with even some paper in oil caps in the path. I've been making my own power cords and interconnects as well with good quality wire and designs taken from the net with decent plugs on the ends. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1358 Registered: Dec-03 | WOW! Great stuff Kegman. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2706 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Rick I do like her! Just wish there was a 5AR4 coke bottle rectifier. Got a couple others to try though. What you runnin these days? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8459 Registered: May-04 | "The one upgrade/improvement I still want to do is a more heavy duty power trannie, she does get quite warm and research says it is running pretty much at tolerance." There can't be much left of the original ST70. I assume just the output transformers. I had a brief discussion with someone other day regarding just how great the ST70 really is when nearly everyone using the amplifier decides to modify nearly everything that made up the original amplifier. Most of the components in the Dynaco amps ran close to tolerance. Part of the "genius" of Hafler, Keroes, etc, was to know when to back off. But a ST70 could always be counted on to heat the room. With the new tubes, is the amp running as a push-pull triode? How many watts like that? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2582 Registered: Dec-04 | There can't be much left of the original ST70. I replaced the handle 6 times and the head twice...best axe I ever owned. I like it Kegger! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2710 Registered: Dec-03 | Nope no triode Jan, I need the extra juice to power the speakers I use at the moment. (maybe at a later date I'll try it though, yu know me) We had her on a friends bench and she puts out a good solid 40wpc before clipping with a very nice frequency response from 7hz to 35k, so it's pretty darn full range. No it's not the greatest amp nor go out to 100K like some great iron does but it does perform really well in the music reproduction department. I came across these 350B tubes when searching for ones to use in my SE-40's that use the 6L6GC like I believe your Macs do and people were calling them the holy grail of 6L6GC's but were only made NOS and by WE so I could not afford them. (there in the 6L6GC family but are suppose to retain some of the 300B sound) Fast forward to a few month's ago when I find out Valve Art was reproducing them with very favorable results but after doing more research they won't handle the near 500v plate voltage of the SE-40's  , but remembering talk of how 6L6GC's do work just fine in an ST-70 got me to dig my old amp back out and mod her on up. I'm biasing the tubes at 47ma and plate voltage is 438vdc. Seems to work pretty well. (do you know what the specs are on the Mac as for plate voltage and bias current?) Yes you are correct it really is not an ST-70 anymore. At the moment the only original parts left really are the trannies and the chassis. It sounds good and still looks like one! LOL! These 350B's do sound very nice, very powerful but still have some magic to them. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2711 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes the ST-70 sounded good in stock form because the output iron was well made. But again yes it was built to a price point and had to fit into a certain budget. The 3 main areas where they could use improvement is the front end/input, the power supply, then yes the power transformer itself was being driven pretty hard. Surprising though the power trannies do last some 20-40 years, I would just feel better if it ran cooler and knew that I had plenty of reserve. I took care of the other 2 areas. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8462 Registered: May-04 | Kegger, you've got me on this one. I 've never heard of a 350B tube. Is it a tetrode, pentode or beam power? NOS or newly manufactured? Part of the allure of the beam power tubes such as the 6L6 or KT66 is the configuration of the collector. It reduces stray emissions and supposedly contributes to the higher power dissipation of a pentode while giving the lower distortion figures of a triode. Like a triode the even order harmonics are well damped and in a push-pull circuit the second and subsequent upper order harmonics are minimized. I've not listened to enough tubes in enough circuits to be defintive in my assessment, but I've always liked the sound of 6L6's as opposed to most other common ouptut tubes. They seem to have a bit of sweetness like an EL84/34 and a bit of grunt like a 6550/KT88. It's a matter of taste however. The 240's run rather conservatively. I have to make certain the tubes I look at can run with a fairly low filament/plate voltage. I don't have the schematic in front of me but my memory says the stock 6L6GC's run at 450 volts with a -55VDC bias. It is a fixed bias amplifier. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2712 Registered: Dec-03 | Here is a link to the WE PDF Jan. http://www.tubezone.net/pdf/we350b.pdf The new production tubes are suppose to be a little beafier and be able to take in excess of 450v on the plates (these are a new reproduction by V.A.) The word on the street is these were the predesessor to the 6L6GC when W.E. had made them way back when and should sub for any amp running 6L6GC with a plate voltage of 450 or less, I believe that the ST-70's bias tap is 55volts also. I'M not suggesting that you should get these and run them, but they shouldn't be a problem if you were to, I was just stating how I came across them and now using them. |
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Silver Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 101 Registered: Nov-05 | I'm sorry for butting in with a question unrelated to the present conversation, but you guys have been so helpful in the past - and patient! My question is: what are the pros and cons of having a passive vs active preamp in a tube integrated amp. I'm speaking specifically of the Rogue Audio Tempest II if anyone has experience with this amp, or just with passive preamps in general. This amp runs KT88 tubes and is switchable between ulraliear and triode if that makes a difference. Thank you for any feedback, -Bill |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8463 Registered: May-04 | How about one of you guys answer this? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2713 Registered: Dec-03 | "I'm sorry for butting in with a question unrelated to the present conversation, but you guys have been so helpful in the past - and patient! My question is: what are the pros and cons of having a passive vs active preamp in a tube integrated amp. I'm speaking specifically of the Rogue Audio Tempest II if anyone has experience with this amp, or just with passive preamps in general. This amp runs KT88 tubes and is switchable between ulraliear and triode if that makes a difference. Thank you for any feedback, " First Bill, Hello! And the main difference between passive and active pre's is the amount of gain. Generally a passive preamp has quite a bit less gain then a passive pre so you need to turn the volume pot up farther then you may be use to. Passive pre's are generally cleaner and quieter. Having an active pre and one with tubes gives you the ability to alter/tailer the sound to you. I have had a rouge amp in the past and in particular the 88 which is basically the amp section of this tempest integrated. I thought the amp was very well made, quiet, powerful and clean. Not that it's a bad thing but I felt the rogue lacked any charactor and I wouldn't call it sterile but it was not a "tubey" or lush sounding amplifier which in the right setup was very nice. I recently sold mine as I needed the money, the amp wasn't in use and I go for a little more of a euphoric type sound in my setup, a little on the lush side. Now when using a tube pre that's got plenty of character the rogue would let that shine through as it imparted none of it's own. So to answer your question "why would someone hook an active pre to this unit" might be to either get more gain and or impart a certain tone/sound to the system. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2714 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan "I've always liked the sound of 6L6's as opposed to most other common ouptut tubes. They seem to have a bit of sweetness like an EL84/34 and a bit of grunt like a 6550/KT88" I would agree with that assestment and like it to. The 350B has just a touch more sweetness while keeping the grunt and adding a bit of delicasy to the highs, to where they shimmer/sparkle a little more. That is my take on them anyway, my favorite tube at the moment when power is needed. May try some NOS 807's which is a version of the 350B with a plate cap. They can be had really cheap, sometimes at like $25 for a quad for NOS. Nobody seems to want any tubes that use a plate cap, when all you need to do is change/rewire the sockets and run wires to the cap on the tube. |
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Silver Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 102 Registered: Nov-05 | Hello Kegger, Thank you for your detailed feedback. That clarifies things for me. My speakers lean toward the detaied (bright) side, so I don't think the Rogue will match up well based on your descripion, which makes a lot of sense. The search continues. Thanks again, -Bill |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2715 Registered: Dec-03 | Well I would call the rogue on the accurate side, not bright or warm so yah it would make your speakers sound the way they are which in your case is bright. I'm a proponent of mixing/matching components to tame or get the sound your after but many others don't like this way of thinking and feel it's incorrect. I understand both sides of the fence but also know what side I'm on. What Kinda power you need Bill? If It's not that much an EL84 or EL34 based amp that's a little more lush sounding but might be the way for you to go, just a guess. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8466 Registered: May-04 | "Nobody seems to want any tubes that use a plate cap, when all you need to do is change/rewire the sockets and run wires to the cap on the tube." And then keep the cats and the kids away from the stereo system. It doesn't look like the 350's would be a good idea in the Macs. Even if they can work at up to 450 volts, I'd rather not have tubes sitting right at the edge of their operating range. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8468 Registered: May-04 | BC - While tube rolling to alter the sound of your system can be an obvious benefit to an active pre amp, there are technical benefits and constrictions you should be aware of when considering a passive device. The question has been addressed several times on the forum and you might want to look at the "Pre amp" section of the forum for more information. I believe this thread has the most pertinent discussion of passive pre amps; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/115465.html, but you might want to look through several of the other threads if you still feel like you need more information. Kegger didn't mention the idea of adding a tube buffer stage to your existing system but this could also give the benefits of an active line stage and tube rolling while minimizing the additional gain of the system. Musical Fidelity has offered a few such designs and they can often be found in the pre owned equipment sales areas such as Audiogon. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2588 Registered: Dec-04 | The Rogue tempest seems like a good fit for my liking, anything I get needs kt88's, I think. Even a 10" Fostex single! Although I don't find a spec on output voltage from my Rotel 1072. How particular would the Rogue be on input to obtain MAX performance and compatibility? I couldn,t find the numbers on either. |
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Silver Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 103 Registered: Nov-05 | Kegger, I'm not opposed to mixing and matching components to acheive better sound either. Ideally, I would have preferred to buy the perfect set up in the first place, but I was impatient and not sure if that is even possible anyway. I really like a lot of what my speakers do well, they just do it a little too well in my room. I may replace them if I find something I like that is significantly better. I don't really need a lot of power. Speakers are 91.5db sensitive and 6ohm nominal 4.2ohm minimum, and I don't listen at very loud levels. I did audition a couple of amps since my last post. The entry level Rogue seperates which run EL34s and the Cary SLi 80 which run KT88s. Both were nice. The Cary did have a bit more life to it though. Better frequency extention without being at all harsh. I'd love to compare the Cary to the Tempest II, but that won't be possible. I'm tempted by what I hear about the Cayin and Primaluna amps, but no chance to audition. I'm assuming that the Cary and Tempest II are a step up from them however. If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know. For those who may be interestd, Upscale Audio will be releasing a new integrated next fall called the DiaLogue. According to Kevin Deal, it will have the same power output as the Primaluna but will include a full function remote, pre out, one more input, triode/ultralinear switching, HT pass through. No word on price or difference in sound yet. Jan, Thank you for your comments and the link you provided. I will definitly be checking through those past threads. Also, how would you connect a tube buffer? Since the Tempest II is an integrated design, can a tube buffer still be used with it? Is there any down side to using one? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8473 Registered: May-04 | With an integrated amplifier and no pre out/main in, the buffer would go in a tape monitor loop. Or, between the source player and the input to the amplifier. The downside is cost. Depending on the benefit you hear, you might not think the buffer is worth the price. That is why you might find one on the pre owned equipment sites. However, they seldom appear there so you could reasonably conclude most people like what they hear. My preference is not to use tubes as a BandAid and I was less than impressed with the unit I have. The benefits for my system were not as pronounced as they might be in other systems. |
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