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New member Username: AlderashPost Number: 1 Registered: Jun-06 | I'm looking for an A/V receiver - an even split of music and movies. Trying to find a 7.1 receiver with a good DAC for around $1,200. My list so far includes a Marantz, NAD and HK. I'd like to include Rotel and Arcam on the list, but they're out of my budget. Now, I KNOW this stuff is subjective, and everyone has their own opinions. The problem is that there is no place close to me to be able to listen to these choices in person to make up my own mind. Thought maybe I could get some feedback here. I was going to go with a NAD T763, but I'm constantly hearing about QC and hissing issues, although it's supposed to sound very good. I think it's only a 6 channel, however. Which receiver would you recommend as a good movie processor with excellent DACs for pure music listening also? Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4144 Registered: Mar-05 | What speakers are you using? Is there a sub? Do you watch a lot of action/thriller flicks? What musical genres? Room size? Total max budget? |
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New member Username: AlderashPost Number: 2 Registered: Jun-06 | I'm using matched Onix Rockets all around I have a 10" sub (Dayton) that is being replaced soon . . . by what, I'm not sure yet. I watch a fair amount of action movies - as well as drama, comedy, concerts, etc. Musical styles: rock/blues mostly, some bluegrass, funk and jazz. Room size is 23 X 15. Total budget is $1,000 - $1,200. Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4150 Registered: Mar-05 | which Onix Rocket models, the smaller ones or the floorstanders? |
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New member Username: AlderashPost Number: 3 Registered: Jun-06 | RS750s up front RS250 MKIIs in the back RSC200 "Bigfoot" Center Channel ELT Dipoles for sides |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4153 Registered: Mar-05 | With the 750s up front and a 50/50 split of movies/music what I'd get is a modest AVR with pre-outs and an external 2-channel amp for your mains. - HK 240, $350 shipped from jr.com - HK 635, $550 shipped from jr.com - NAD c272 amp (150wpc), $600-700 - Outlaw 200watt monoblocks, $325 each from outlawaudio.com ps. NAD's reliability issues are mainly with their multichannel receivers, not the 2-channel gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rjw1138Regina, SK Canada Post Number: 20 Registered: Nov-04 | I have a NAD T742 receiver and the DACs (D/A section, really) are pretty poor. DD/DTS sound fine, but music through the digital input does not. It has a hugely bloated midbass, rolled off upper highs, weak detail and a compressed & congested soundstage. Using the analog outs of even the budget NAD C521BEE CD player was a huge improvement over using a digital connection. The audio quality of this receiver through the analog inputs is pretty good though. NADs do have a reputation as being better sounding than most other mid-fi receivers. One word of warning, though: put your best analog source on the 5.1 inputs, not a regular stereo input (like CD, DVD, etc.). The 5.1 inputs bypass a lot of preamp circuitry and sound WAY better. Too bad all the inputs don't sound as good. Anyways, despite the fact that the digital input/DACs aren't the greatest, I haven't had any QC problems, hissing, hum, etc. though. Not all NADs are plagued with problems. Well, the headphone jack is a bit hissy and may thus have gone bad, or that may just be the way it was designed; I dunno. I have no idea if the DACs in the rest of the T7x2 series, or in the T7x3 series are the same ones or not, and I know there's more to the D/A conversion section that just DAC chips, but I thought I'd give you a bit of a heads up. If you want a receiver that has a great digital input section so that you don't need an expensive CD source, I'd be wary, and make sure you listen well to whatever it is you plan on getting. BTW, I like Edster's advice of a cheap AVR with a good pre/pro section and either separate amps for your mains or for all channels. Good receivers are pretty bad investments... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4181 Registered: Mar-05 | > DD/DTS sound fine, but music through the digital input does not. well, I don't know of ANYone who's serious about music who actually listens to CDs through a digital connection (the only possible exception being those with a digital switching receiver who are willing to sacrifice a bit of musicality for extreme clarity). That's why people buy a decent CDP with a decent DAC. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rjw1138Regina, SK Canada Post Number: 21 Registered: Nov-04 | Hey Ed, I'm under the impression that some receivers or pre-pros ARE capable of sounding very good over the digital connections, and that they don't have to be outragesouly expensive, but that they're probably pretty few and far between. For example, the Arcam AVR300. J. Peter Moncrieff raves about it on his site (www.iar-80.com). He basically compares the digital inputs to premium single disc players. Though he doesn't give explicit numbers, I get the impression that by using a decent transport and a digital connection and using a $2500 AVR300, you're pretty much getting the quality of a ~$2000 and up CD player, plus a hell of a receiver thrown in with that. However, this is just hearsay, as I haven't personally heard this unit. Anyways, I'm sure there are other such examples too. Brad, I have my doubts that you'll find amazing quality through the digital inputs in ~$1200 units though, but then again, who knows. I haven't heard them all, and I can't tell you. As always, trust your own ears... It's too bad that you aren't able to audition many. I wish I could give you a trustworthy recommendation on something, but sadly I can't. All I can say is NAD's might be questionable. Marantz and HK might be similar, but for all I know they could be better. I'm pretty sure Rotel and Arcam ARE better, but it's too bad you can't stretch your budget for those. Anyways, sorry the board's not being more helpful with suggestions. RyGuy |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4189 Registered: Mar-05 | heh, a $2500 AVR is way out of my humble budget (at least any budget that wouldn't result in an instant divorce when the wife finds out). You might want to read the following thread though, this guy also had a very expensive (by my standards) AVR with outboard DAC, which he surprisingly replaced with something a heck of a lot less expensive: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6492921#post6492921 |
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Bronze Member Username: Rjw1138Regina, SK Canada Post Number: 22 Registered: Nov-04 | You know Ed, you're probably onto something with your suggestion of one of the Panasonic Class D receivers. I've heard a lot of good things about them in general, and apparently they sound best when interfaced with their digital connections. This is due to not having to do an additional A/D conversion before feeding the signal into the PWM Class D amp. Now, I just have no idea how good this sound through the digital ins actually is. Does it compare well to the capabilities of mid-fi CD players connected to mid-fi receivers? I personally don't know. I know I'd love to try one out, and I actually wouldn't be surprised if, when used with a decent transport, it came close or even beat the performance of what I'm getting from my T742, CA 640C and pricey interconnects, for a fraction of the cost. Brad, you may want to look into these. Do some research on the Panasonic SA-XR series (55, 57, 70 may be the best). I think there's a possibility this may be your best bang for buck. You should let us know what you think about this after you do some researching. RyGuy |
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New member Username: AlderashPost Number: 4 Registered: Jun-06 | Thanks for the feedback -- I appreciate your advice. I have heard some things about the Panny, but dismissed them figuring it couldn't hang with the likes of Marantz, NAD, etc. I suppose I should take a closer look. Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1434 Registered: Sep-04 | RJW, One of the main problems with transferring digital signals between the disc player and the receiver is the method of connection. This is usually either optical via Toslink or coax via S/PDIF RCA connections. Both Toslink and S/PDIF have buffered stages which introduce timing errors called jitter. Although the DACs in things like the Arcam are likely to be better quality than you'd find in an entry level disc player, the jitter introduced in the transfer can't be fixed, and forms part of the analogue signal that results. The odd situation you may find yourself with this is that the signal sounds really good with better resolution, space, air etc., but doesn't engage or connect as effectively as using the analogue outs of the disc player - this is the effect of jitter, smearing in the time domain. With movies this jitter has little impact since we rarely look for rhythmic cues, but rhythmic cues are the basis of 90% of music so the impact is far greater there. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1435 Registered: Sep-04 | Incidentally, jitter exists in CD players as well, but it is orders lower, so has far less impact... Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rjw1138Regina, SK Canada Post Number: 24 Registered: Nov-04 | Well, well, well. Hey Brad, in an awesome coincidence, I was just recently able to demo a Panasonic SA-XR55 receiver for a few days. I found someone local who was selling one, and worked out an arrangement to borrow it for a few days so I could audition it. My conclusion? Well, bottom line is this: I think you should scratch it from your list. If you have a budget of ~$1200 for a receiver that sounds great over its digital inputs, then I think you can probably do a lot better than the Panasonic Class D receivers. I didn't compare it to my NAD through the digital inputs, but I know they suck. But I did compare it to my NAD T742, CA 640C CD player and Nordost Blue Heavens through the analog inputs, a system that you could put together for about $1000 right now, using the same CD player but through the Panasonic's digital connections, and the NAD bettered the Panasonic. The NAD is pretty old, and I know the T763 you're considering is better in many ways. If your budget could get a receiver or make a combo even better than what I have, then there's really no reason to consider the Panny. Anyways, check out my mini-review/comparo over in this thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/239777.html Hope this gives you some food for thought. Any luck in your decision? RyGuy |
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New member Username: AlderashPost Number: 5 Registered: Jun-06 | Thanks for the Panny review. No decisions yet -- I'm actually still building my HT, so I have time to look around. I'm very close to purchasing a NAD, but the many posts concerning QC and reliability are scaring me off a bit. BTW, NAD is a rather warm amp, right? I'm wondering if it's too warm for my Rocket speakers; they tend to be fairly laid back. |
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Bronze Member Username: SackohammersPost Number: 53 Registered: May-06 | Here is some more food for thought: http://www.denguru.com/2005/11/17/getting_what_you_don/ Just an interesting read about some things too look for in Video DAC. |
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New member Username: ZtkavcPost Number: 10 Registered: Apr-04 | Newer NADs T7x3 have same sound as older NAD T742 described by RJW1138. Regards Zoran |