First ever serious TT I've owned - please can anyone advise on setup?
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New member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 1 Registered: May-06 | Hi, I've come across a second hand Rega Planar 2, which is something of a lucky find for me - a good honest deal through a friend, but who knows nothing about the subject of turntables. I've always wanted to own serious Hi-Fi, but entry level is really all I've afforded - so this to me is a step in the right direction, as far as vinyl is concerned. I have three basic questions to ask of any kind person who'd like to help me: First: I currently own an Ariston deck, (unsure of model number), which I suspect has been part of a DJ rig at some point in it's life (it's quite a heavy duty piece of kit!). I know very little else about this deck, other than it has a very heavy headshell assembly which sports a (Shure or Radio Shack?)R45XT cartridge, with generic stylus from Maplins. My question is: what level of sonic improvement can I expect to find in the domestic Rega P2 over the Ariston? It's the one with the glass platter, btw, not the fibreboard one. Second: How can I learn the right proceedure for setting up the Rega to ensure that it's counter-balance and tracking force controls are properly set up? My setting up of the Ariston has been by guesswork alone! Thirdly: The Rega currently sports a cartridge marked with a kind of 'A' (an@rchy sign)... I suspect it's "Audio Technica". Would it be worth using the Shure R45XT with it instead of the AT one? What should I know about the assembly to ensure I get it properly lined up? I should add I've never done this before, but over the years I've picked up a little knowledge of Hi-Fi, so I'm hoping I can learn this without running out to local dealer and getting charged the earth. I've been listening to vinyl for years, but this will be the first half-serious turntable I've owned. I'd really like to know more about it. I'm hooking it up with my vintage NAD 3225PE, which was supposed to be a very good little amp in it's day. I have a pair of new Gale 3020 bi-wirable speakers to go with it. It sounds lovely with my Technics CD player and pretty good already with the Ariston turntable - so I'm quite excited to see what the Rega will sound like. Thanks in anticipation, Anubis |
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Bronze Member Username: LagomaticBrisbane, Queensalnd Australia Post Number: 22 Registered: Jun-05 | Hello Ade, First thing I'd recommend is checking your cartridge alignment & tracking force. Once this is sorted and you setup sounds good or bad for that matter, it would then perhaps be a matter of turning you attention to a new cartridge. The Rega Bias 2 is Regas entry level cartridge, moving magnet and particualrly easy to set up with a Rega table. This should get you going and although I've had no experience with the Arison Deck, I'm pretty confident the P2 will outperform in all areas. If you don't have your Rega Cartridge allignment template, you can download & print a new one from here: http://www.vinylengine.com/manuals_tonearm_protractors.shtml As to tracking force, the purchase of a "Sure Tracking Force Gauge" or similar is probably the way to go as they are cheap and easy to get via hi-fi stores or ebay. Good luck and let us know how you your turntable scrubs up. Cheers John |
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New member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 6 Registered: May-06 | Hi John and thankyou for the tips and link to the protractor! I'll download it when the Rega arrives. Right now, I'm concerned with downward weight force upon the record's surface. On the Ariston, when allowing too much weight (on an old record) I found the voices were pronouncing "Shhckk" instead of "Sssss", if you see what I mean. Then it sounded smoother when the counterbalance was wound back. I also noticed the stylus' cantilever bends accordingly. So can I adjust this by eye? I'm sure there is a more accurate method. My friend wanted a spare record deck, so I'm dealing in the Ariston with him as part exchange. I want to make sure it's set up and doesn't damage his records. I've heard that too little weight (downforce) can damage records, too. True or false? Thanks again. I will let you know how the rega shapes up. Cheers, Anubis |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8586 Registered: May-04 | There are plenty of good articles here, but scroll down to the analog section for more on tables. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html |
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New member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 9 Registered: May-06 | Thankyou... That link offers plenty to sink my teeth into, Jan. I've come to the conclusion that fiddling with just one turntable is more sonically rewarding than swapping out CD players. How are you doing these days, Jan? Good to see you still on form... I used to be 'Varney' a couple of years ago. I've changed career path since we last spoke and am finding much more satisfation in life. Hope you are well. I've come back to the turntable set-up with a vengeance, you may have noticed  Anubis. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4211 Registered: Dec-03 | Anubis, Planar 2 Classic Setup Flier. From: http://www.rega.co.uk/html/downloads.htm The tracking weight should follow the recommendation of the maker of the cartridge. You also need to know which tonearm you have. An early model P2 would have had an "S"-shaped arm. I remember "Varney", too! An old thread here: Concerning turntables and LPs. Simple things your father knew, probably |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 14 Registered: May-06 | Hi John, Yes - I remember you too! Salutations - and thanks for the links. I have good reason, beyond serious, crushing doubt that the tonearm would be the RB250. That is from reading the original specs and a few reviews of the P2; whereas it was the P3 which sported the RB300. I wonder how I will know for sure... perhaps there is some ID stamped somewhere on the arm? It might be worthy of note there is an AT cartridge on there. I would lightly suspect the purchaser of an RB300 might buy something a little more upmarket, such as Goldring or even Rega. There, I might even be just showing my ignorance concerning 'Kartridge kudos' now! Concerning TTs and LPs and the old simple dad: Ahh those were the days, eh? That thread was brilliant. I admit there's a lot I seem to have forgotten since my last foray into here. I'm pleased to find that so much of the past is archived. Not so enthusiastic to relive my old socio-poloitical rants, however...Hehe! . Later, Anubis. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8606 Registered: May-04 | The RB 250, 300, etc, are all straight arms with a fixed headshell. The original arms supplied on the Planars was the Japanese sourced "S" shaped arm with a removable headshell. If you've bought a Planar or a "P" since 1984, you will have the RB arm. Some of the AT's are considered very good deals. The 95, I think it is, has attracted some attention in the budget high end market. You can determine the model of your AT by matching the stylus grip to the AT charts. Varney/Anubis, yes, I'm still here. Dealing with the folks on this forum provides a good break from reality. Some of these folks are so far removed from that base, it's frightening at times. Though "Anubis" sounds a bit Area 51-ish, in an X-Files sort of way. Just what I would expect from someone who makes political rants. What's the story there? I hope you haven't given up the political rants. Not when there's still so much to rave about! |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 17 Registered: May-06 | Hi Jan, Certainly the arm is of the straight variety with, as you mention, the fixed headshell. I deduced it may be the RB250, since the 300 (as far as I know) featured on the more expensive P3 arrangement. This particular P2 has the glass platter, which I consider something of a lucky find, since many opinions are less in favour of the fibreboard material, which as you know came later and, as some say - a cost cutter (?). Ah - now for the story: Never been into the X-files and never been one for popular conspiracy theories either. The name comes from the headquarters of The British Institute Of Embalmers, of whom I'm about to become a member. They are situated in a building so aptly named: 'Anubis House'. Even the briefest dip into Egyptology tells us Anubis (Inpew, Yinepu, Anpu) is 'God of Embalming and Guide and Friend of the Dead'. I'm no god, but hey! I'll be working his shift soon - and he's not on a bad wage, either! I'm studying to become an embalming surgeon/cosmetologist. Hopefully my art can become a beloved hobby once more, without the pressure of performing to meet the bills. So much quality is lost through these things, just as so much quality is restored to a craft through the sheer love of it. The renewed interest in tweaking audio comes since the work is mainly physical and a bit mentally draining at times and good, clear music is great for relaxation. I'm also looking forward to affording better audio kit! As for political rants... Well, Jan... let's put it this way... In this trade, there are enough sights, smells and circumstances to remind us we live in an imperfect world - each time we lift a lid or pull back a sheet. Being able to just once lead another through acceptance of the worst, carries a meaning I'm sure you will be able to deduce. Yep! Still so much to rant about. I probably won't disapoint you there! We'll see... A. |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 20 Registered: May-06 | Well, the Rega arrived today (should any soul be interested). Takes some time to spin up to speed, but when it does I think it's all worth it. Nice smoked acrylic lid but the hinges are crap. Have not seen such shirking since the battery compartment hinges on a cheap bicycle light. However, the sound... Yes... there's noticably more detail in the midrange and the bass seems quicker. In fact, conversely, the whole performance seems 'slower'... not in actual speed, but each instrument seems paced and easy to follow... oh and there's quite a bit more space between them all, too. All that - with the lesser of the RB arms: the 250. So what's all this 'felt mat malarky' then? Of the two reviews I read, both writers agreed the inclusion of the felt mat softens the sound a little. Without the mat, there is to me a distinctly harder 'SMACK' to the drums. It seems Billy Idol's White Wedding was hiding an extra rythym guitar. You can run, Billy, but you can't hide now I got me a Rega Planar! Perhaps I'm just dreaming it all. Maybe the disease of audiophilia is clouding my mind with it's delusionary fever? Well, I have over the weekend to decide if Christine McVie had a cold when Tango In The Night was recorded, or whether it's just my imagination. I didn't actually think my amp and speakers would reveal much difference... But they do. I'll listen some more later, when my ears have cooled down. Now it seems I may have to put the wife through special training, since her favourite switch (the 33/45rpm toggle) has been cruelly swiped away with the old Ariston. Ah well... if Hi-Fi was for girls it would be made in a variety of pretty colours. Looks like Rega thought of that, too! Cheers for reading. Please tell me if it's okay to go without the furry doormat on the platter. Nothing slips, so I guess it must be okay...? A. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4216 Registered: Dec-03 | A. They run fast. You may notice a slightly higher pitch. I wound black tape around my drive wheel to slow it down. I posted on that somewhere here. It is not difficult to switch between 45 and 33 r.p.m.; you change gear by moving the belt between the larger and smaller wheels on the motor end, and you get to admire the glass platter in the process. You probably know that. The hinges are OK because it is easy to take the lid off completely. And put it back on. I think the felt is OK, too, personally. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2823 Registered: Dec-04 | If it softens Billy Idol, the doormat must go for that type of listening. I am curious about some SRV music with/without the mat, though. Got any, Varney? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8616 Registered: May-04 | The felt mat is less revealing than many other alternatives. The aftermarket is ripe with mods for the Regas. I have recently tried a low hung replacement counterweight and end stock. I would enhusiastically recommend both for any Rega owner. I wouldn't play much without the mat. It does make the sound quite hard when the LP is directly on the glass platter. Not only is the glass contributing to the hardnesss but the disc is not well supported and resonance is going to add a bit of glare to the sound. The felt is poor compared to other choices in mats. It is superior to no mat at all. |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 21 Registered: May-06 | Thanks,guys. Hi John, The speed seems fine, but perhaps there is no true way of telling without comparrison. I imagine the difference we're talking is slight (?). Changing gear is a joy. Who needs switches when one has a five-digit opposable grip? Of all things, the glass platter is a very attractive feature to look at. Nuck, Tell me what SRV stands for and I'll let you know if I have any. Jan, I've tried a rubber one from a lovely old wooden Rotel I also own, but this is too heavy and slows the motor to a crawl. Not a nice thought! I'm sure you're right in what you say - in fact the evidence is right there - though it's likely my amp, speakers and wiring may need that extra little something to make up for their combined shortfall. Everything in my stack now represents good budget quality, but still only a short way up the food chain. The detail and build quality of the Rega does make it seem quite special, so I think I'll hunt for a better mat when I have time. What materials do you favour or find optimal with glass? V |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 24 Registered: May-06 | Hmmm.... John? Just how much tape? I'm begining to think you could be right. Before starting, I presume this increases the diameter of the drive wheel, this slowing the platter in a controlled way? Cheers again, A/V |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 25 Registered: May-06 | Oh dear. Now I've been at the arm with a medical stethoscope. I wonder if there is professional help available? No, not for the turntable... A/V |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8622 Registered: May-04 | I suggest you check the web for possible alternatives to the Rega's felt mat. As you've found, some materials are too heavy and some raise the arm to the extent a spacer might be required to maintain VTA. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1346 Registered: May-05 | I don't have a Rega, I have a Pro-Ject Xpression, so take this as you will... I noticed a definate improvement when I went from the stock felt mat to an after market mat. It's an open celled foam mat,called Herbie's Way Excellent Turntable Mat (such a stupid name). Details can be found here - You also mentioned speed issues. The best upgrade I've made thus far is a speed controller. I bought a Pro-Ject Speed Box for my TT. I can honestly say it took my TT to the next level. The difference is night and day. I've seen speed controllers for the Rega line. I can't remember where, how much, who made them, and which models in particular they were made for. Mine only works on Pro-Ject TT's, and cost about $100. Everything is cleaner, tighter, more focused. Space has between instruments/vocals been improved as well. Hope that helped. |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 27 Registered: May-06 | Thanks, Stu. In view of how you described the differences, I'm suspecting this is something more than I was expecting. If it were running consistently at the wrong speed, it would just sound too slow/fast. It doesn't. To me, it sounds like it's running perfectly at the 33(1/4?) an LP is designed to go. I wonder, what is the point of a turntable which fluctuates in speed throughout a peformance? I imagine it would be impossible to listen to music on it. I imagine it would warble up and down in pitch constantly and be absolutely unlistenable as a result. I really can't see how a £200 + deck could not run at the right speed, when the entire point of a turntable is to revolve at an exact and specified speed. This would be a little like buying a car with only three wheels. In the same way as I would not like to fork out for the missing wheel, I would not expect to pay one penny to upgrade a turntable that could not maintain it's rotational speed! I'd simply have bought one that could in the first place. I've read somewhere the speed error on the Planar is no more than 1%. This is almost inaudibly slight, yet I have tried John's method of placing tape around the drivewheel, just for good measure. Thanks for the link to the mat. Of course, all suggestions are helpful here. I can try one or two out. I actually quite like the sound of Herbie's nice mat Cheers, A/V |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1350 Registered: May-05 | Anubis - I understand exactly what you're saying regarding speed. I thought the same things myself. Every table has speed issues. No matter how well they're designed, they could all use some help in consistancy. The ultra high end TTs all have seperate speed controllers for this reason. I don't know what is and isn't audible, percentage wise. The Speed Box is reprotedly accurate to 0.01%. It made a huge difference on my TT. The Speed Box SE is better than the regular Speed Box, and is accurate to 0.001% If I had better surrounding components and a better TT, the SE would be worth it to me. I'm more than happy with the regular Speed Box in my system. Here's a link to the Speed Box SE, which somewhat explains things (though it's an ad and doesn't get into sound charecteristics) - http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/speedboxse.htm Sound quality with speed regulation is an odd thing. I'm not talking about outright issues like the sound speeding up and slowing down on a large scale. But it does happen on a smaller scale, and is very audible when a speed controller is connected. I ordered the Speed Box on the strong recommendation from the dealer. I could have returned it for a full refund. The differences are dramatic. Every part of the sound is cleaned and tightened up. A lot of people complained about bass roll off, but that's not accurate. Bass is harded, tighter, and faster. My best way of describing it is before the speed box, bass sounded somewhat flabby relatively speaking. I haven't heard anyone else use that word for bass before, but it's my best way of describing it. If you've got a way of auditioning a spped controller, you really should. I'm pretty sceptical of tweaks myself. This one is very audible. The Xpression sounded great before I got the Speed Box. It's definately in another league with it. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8627 Registered: May-04 | Most motor controllers for turntables are meant for synchronous motor designs. DC motors are more commonly controlled by servo mechanisms. At this time only a few high end tables utilize a DC motor. Synchronous motors tend to cog. The more poles there are in the motor, the less you notice the cogging and it's audible results. However, even with 24 poles, a synchronous motor will still present a less than perfect rotation. Synchronous designs also lock onto the frequency of the pulsing AC waveform rather than the voltage itself. Thus, synchronous motors which are designed to run on Europe's 50Hz standard will need some adjustment when used on a 60Hz line. And, vice versa. Most controllers address these two facts predominantly. The AC waveform is settled to an exact 50 or 60Hz and is filtered of any incoming garbage. The waveform is smoothed to a perfect sine without the additional hash normally found on the raw AC line. The motor cogging is reduced to a minimum and the noise floor of the motor is lowered. Normally this is demonstrated by holding the top of the main bearing with and without the controller in place. A significant reduction in motor chatter should be observed when the controller is doing its work on the incoming line voltage. As with most AC conditioners, the source impedance of the AC line is lowered and the motor can pull more current to overcome monetary problems such as warped or off center discs or deep bass passages that create a short-time drag on the stylus. Constant speed variations on a turntable occur at the micro level unless the belt is worn or there are significant problems in the table's design and execution. Most tables do not spin at exactly 33 1/3 without some type of controller on the motor. A 1% variance is considered normal by most manufacturers and doesn't usually bother someone without exceptional pitch perception. But, the micro variations create problems in staging, detail retrieval, bass response and overall relaxation level. One source for these micro variations exists in the constantly "wriggling" motor amd main bearing. Placing a controller on the motor to smooth or eliminate the vibration creates benefits in the ways SP describes. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4219 Registered: Dec-03 | Anubis, What to do. I had solved the pitch issue with my Planar 3 at the end of 2004 and then moved, and the turntable is still waiting to be shipped, so I can't go back and check. However, I posted the results so far here, on Rega Planar 3 - Turntable running slow. See especially: Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 09:24 am: Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 07:31 am: In summary; Before: 100 revolutions took 178.96 seconds. That is 33.527 r.p.m. Which is 0.6 % fast. After applying 5 layers of plastic insulating tape, 0.15 mm thick: A timed 33.346 r.p.m. which is 0.05% fast, but exactly the right speed according the stroboscope obtained by viewing the dots around a Meridian or Hyperion LP label under a desk lamp with 50 Hz line frequency (as we have over here). I also checked the spot frequencies on a test LP and they were correct, to within less that 0.05 %. There are some freeware computer programs for checking pitch. I just timed 100 revolutions, which I counted, using a small maker resting on the felt pad. I think it was a plastic pen top. Sure was a fun way to spend part of the weekend. Family members looked at each other with concern. It sounded much better after the treatment. I told 'em. They said, indulgently, "If you say so". Mind you, Mrs A herself noticed the pitch change. |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 29 Registered: May-06 | Hi John, I've put two layers of tape onto the wheel. Not wrapped round, in case it causes a spiral, but individually cut to fit exactly. 6% actually seems a lot in my humble estimation. It's possible your P3 was running faster than my P2. I've wondered if the Rega boffins somehow based this on the weight of the vinyl and changes of mat. Maybe they just hoped you wouldn't notice? Maybe they didn't know. This, along with the Bermuda triangle will just have to remain a mystery. So I can now confirm that we share the same level of insanity, Mr. A; along with the chief loony, Mr. Vigne. What drives us to these lengths? Could it be we are unable to control our lives, so we control our Hi-Fi systems? Does it stop the bodies mounting up under the floorboards? I have not eaten human flesh since buying my Gale speakers, so that is progress I suppose. Both my Ariston and Rotel decks have psuedo-stroboscope-type affairs built into their metal platters. The spinning notches must be read off as stationary dots, under the orange light, to ascertain correct pitch. I don't know if it works, because I could only tune the Ariston by ear in the end. Needless to say I am cursed with highly senstive lugholes. The speed sounds right. It was an overly enthusiastic Freddie Mercury, singing "Crazy Little Thing..." which prompted me to take notice of your comments. Later, the Mrs. complained Wayne Hussey was drooling slightly. Blue Oyster's "Don't Fear The reaper" on 45rpm sounded bang on pace. I honestly feel satisfied with the whole system for what little I've managed to scrape it together for. Part of the buzz is waiting years, then building the nearest-best possible stack for the price of an egg & cress sandwich (naturally, I exagerate). I've hated my 50s fireplace since I moved in and am now staring at a beautiful solid wood georgian fireplace which some ingrate threw into a skip. That's just one small example of how my Steptoe & Son lifestyle brings me constant pleasure. I just like sanding and varnishing things I wonder why Frank disuades us from using bicycle grease? Maybe not the old standard gloop, but there are some very fine, yet inexpensive lithium formulations which are designed for use in bikes with exacting componentry costing in the thousands. I'd imagine what matters most is getting the correct viscosity. A/V |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4223 Registered: Dec-03 | Anubis, Total agreement. I should have specified cutting exact circumferential lengths; that's what I did, too, and for the same reason. It was 0.6 %, not 6 %. I remember working out that that was about a demisemitone. One would certainly notice, and care, if a musical instrument were that sharp or flat. There are so many welcome asides in your post. But let us not dwell on the 1950s fireplace, for example, even if it is so accurately rendered in recent episodes of Dr Who. The true aesthetic value is enhanced by ducks flying up the chimney breast, I recall. The stroboscope is a simple illusion by which a flashing light gives the impression that a repetitively moving object is stationary, provided the repetitive motion has exactly the same frequency as the flashes. If the flashes are accurately timed, one can visualise very small differences in the two frequencies as the object seems to creep forward, if it is running faster than the reference speed, or backwards, if running slower. From certain record companies, there were LPs whose labels carried a circle of light-coloured dots. When viewed with light reflected from an ordinary filament light-bulb (it doesn't work with fluorescent strips) the dots would appear to be stationary provided the record rotated at 33.3' r.p.m. It is a disturbing and little-known fact that electric light varies in intensity fifty times a second. Or sixty in, say, the U.S. I would not read too much into this, myself. |
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New member Username: Luna19660916New york, Ny Post Number: 1 Registered: Jun-06 | dish network new keys |
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New member Username: Luna19660916New york, Ny Post Number: 2 Registered: Jun-06 | new keys |
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Bronze Member Username: AnubisBirmingham, West Midlands England Post Number: 32 Registered: May-06 | Yes John, that little 0. is less than nothing, yet makes such a big something. The time those ducks ever looked cool, was when they appeared with Peter Murphy on the Maxell advert. Mind you, he could make anything look cool. It strikes me that if man can build a light to flash at specified frequencies and space dots at such exact distances, then he is able to build a motor which runs at near-constant and reliable speeds. I imagine the test records you speak of might now be rarer than rare musical pressings. As to their value, it seems music will always win on that score. I'd say that if both light and sound are bent by the curvature of space, there will be differences, depending on the distance of your record player to your nearest friendly black hole. Since light is supposed to travel at a constant speed, a turnable in motion might present a somewhat difficult piece of apparatus to calibrate in this way. Damn - I knew there was something.... I forgot to account for the earth's rotation while measuring the thickness of my insulation tape. Lunali - Thankyou for your randomness. In aproximately 6.5 million years time, we may either come to appreciate your wisdom, or disagree entirely. A/V |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4226 Registered: Dec-03 | Or still fail to comprehend. Thanks for this pleasingly discursive note, Anubis. There are still test LPs. "HiFi News" has one. http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/hfntlp.htm |
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