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New member Username: SariusPost Number: 1 Registered: May-06 | Hi, I'm thinking about upgrading my amp from the Roksan Kandy integrated driving my rather power hungry Thiel CS 2.2's to separates. I've heard about using a tube preamp in front of a solid state amp. While I love the sound of the Thiel's, they are just a tad bright and I was thinking that the tube preamp might help. I mostly listen to Jazz, 'World' music of all types, as well as Classical. I'm considering a Primaluna Prologue Three driving a Parasound Halo A21 amp. I was wondering if anyone might have any comments about this combo? Thanks in advance. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8567 Registered: May-04 | As usual, I have to object to the idea tubes will "tame" a system which is over the top. Firstly, If you do not have the Thiels positioned with no toe-in, make that change before you decide to alter the frequency response of the system. The speakers should face straight forward rather than pointed toward the listening position. Use the spikes to tilt the speaker back slightly. Further treatments to the room should be considered before you proceed with equipment changes. It is best to get the Thiels sounding the way you like before making alterations to the system that will possibly be to the detriment of the speakers' abilites. Normally, I would work from the other end of the system and suggest you change the pre amp, but the Thiels are a special case and you already have them. Some room damping placed at the first reflection point and behind the listening position should help. Most Thiel speakers suffer from a severly "splashy" room and need to be brought into line by room treatments. Get serious about the treatments. Flimsy rugs and draperies aren't going to even out the in-room response and could easily make the situation worse. If your budget allows, I would consider adding a 1 1/2 - 2" layer of foam or woven batting to the walls behind a muslin cover or splurge for the real thing with some ACS products. Check the "Accessories" section of the forum for more information on these types of treatments. Adding another layer of carpet padding will also help with the very wide dispersion Thiels. Second, the tubes will add some sweetness to the mix but they are not what I would consider the best match for the Parasound amp. You might disagree if you don't listen for the same qualities I do. I would strongly suggest you consider a better solid state unit to mate with the Thiels. The best I've heard (and sold) with the 2.2 is Jeff Rowland Design Group. (http://www.jeffrowland.com/) If I had my druthers and a given budget, I would prefer the Rowland to the tubes even if the Rowland was a pre owned unit. For your information, I use tubes, but find them generally unsatisfactory with the Thiels. |
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New member Username: SariusPost Number: 2 Registered: May-06 | Thanks Jan, Yes, I've spent quite a bit of time experimenting with the positioning. The speakers are about 3' from the back wall, 3' from one side and 4' from the other with a very slight toe-in which I've found superior to the straight-ahead, which I also tried. I agree that right at the listener didn't work well at all. The room is 15 x 22' and backs onto another room that adds another 25' for an effective 47' depth. Listening position is about 10' from the speakers centerline. The first reflection points are treated with GIK 244 panels. (see http://www.gikacoustics.com/ ) and I also have 2" pyramid acoustic foam at the secondary points as well as stacked corner foam traps in each corner behind the speakers. The carpets were laid with an extra heavy pad. All of this did indeed help a lot. The sound treatments in particular did wonders for the imaging and soundstage. You advice is very good and I completely agree that all of this needed to be tried first before dropping thousands of bucks into new amps. What is it about tubes and Thiel's that you don't like, if I might ask? The Roksan Kandy is a very good sounding amp, with a 500 va transformer and putting out 220 watts into the speakers 4 ohms. However, with some material the speakers have clipped, and on demanding material they can have a 'constrained' sense that I thought the Parasound with over double the power and three times the current on tap might help with. Also, don't get me wrong, the sound is hardly 'over the top'. The current sound is very good.. when I said 'a tad bright', I meant a very tiny amount, not even what I'd consider unacceptable. My thinking was to see if the tube warmth in the preamp might might a very good thing even better.. which is why I'm very interested in your experience with this combo. What do you think about using the Kandy as a pre to drive the Halo? At two grand it's in the price range. I think the equivalent Rowlands would be over twice the price and a bit over my budget. The Parasand Halo has gotten some excellent reviews. Is there some reason you'd warn me off of it? Thanks again for the response. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8574 Registered: May-04 | No, I didn't warn you off Parasound. I warned you about putting a Parasound power amplifier together with most tube pre amps. I find the general personality of these two architectures to be conflicting. As I hear them, the 2.2's are slightly forward sounding speakers. These were, in my opinion, the best of the Thiel speakers. Since this model was discontinued, Thiel no longer uses the Dynaudio drivers. However, the first order crossover with its many corrective/tailoring components is difficult for many amplifiers to drive and elicits nasty sounds when strained or under-driven in amplifier quality. The Parasound is somewhat forward to more or less neutral with a touch of solid state grain. It has the requisite power to drive the speakers, but I don't know that it is what I would consider the best solid state amplifier for the Thiels. (Obviously, I consider the Rowlands the best for the Thiels.) You might feel differently. More than anything, I find the personality of the Parasound to be at some odds with the Thiel's sound. When I say this, keep in mind I am speaking in an absolute sense, and, once again, you might disagree. But it is the strain the Thiel crossover puts on an amplifier which gives the sound that "just a tad bright" character. The phase angle presented by the crossover components is a very difficult load for any amplifier. The difference between a large solid state amp like the Parasound and a large solid state amp like the Rowland makes all the difference. The Thiels need an amplifier which is absolutely unshakable. Unfortunately, that gets expensive. The other alternative to this situation is to buy an amplifier which isolates the outputs from the difficulties of the speaker. In essence, the Thiels are usualy driving the amplifier with a hard to handle electrical phase angle and back EMF which overwhelms the minimal feedback loops often used today. An amplifier which isolates the outputs uses a top notch transformer or autoformer. McIntosh is such an amplifier. It, of course, is in the same price range as the Rowlands. Most tube pre amps, and most especially the PL units have a sweet, laid back sound that is anathema to what the Thiels are trying to do. Most tube pre amps I have heard paired with the Thiels result in a sound which gives the impression of being bottled up and trying like carzy to get out. Some customers weren't bothered by this and some felt the results were more frustrating than they had before they put the tubes in the system. As I said, I have a difficult time when someone suggests using tubes as any sort of BandAid to a system. I find a system works more cohesively when you play to the strengths of each component rather than trying to dissuade the speaker's personality by way of sweetening the offending area of the Thiels. I understand the Thiels are "just a tad bright", but they are what they are. You are not the first person to find Thiels persuasive in the showroom and find them "just a tad bright" over the long run. By introducing a component with a laid back personality, I feel you would be creating a bit of a hodge-podge of soundscapes which will result in decent but not top notch sound quality. I admit the most frequent solution to the Thiels "just a tad bright" character is to buy a component which is slightly soft in the high end. This can be done and, if this is what the budget allows, I would say give it a try. You might find just what you are hoping for. And, there are tube pre amps which might be a better match for what I consider to be the Thiels' qualities. Possibly an Audio Research pre amp. I would avoid any pre amp which uses 12AX7 tubes since they are a main source of the "sweetness" which I think should be avoided with the Thiels. I get the feeling, however, you are not interested in pre owned equipment. If that's not the case, I would still strongly suggest a pre owned Rowland. Check Audiogon for some possible deals. http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl I don't know the Roksan unit, so I can't comment on how well it might work as a pre amp. My general feelings amount to liking the Thiels for what they do but realizing they are far more demanding of what's in front of them than most speakers and more than most dealers are willing to admit when they sell them. Try the Roksan with the Parasound if that's where the budget goes. Finding the perfect combination of electronics for Thiels is difficult. Good luck. |
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New member Username: SariusPost Number: 3 Registered: May-06 | Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Jan. It's was extremely helpful. I hadn't thought of the Rowlands, but did some web surfing and found their Concerto Integrated. It's about twice the 'oomph' of what I've got now, and the price would be doable.. if a bit of a stretch. I see that Rowland has gone to digital amps. I would assume that a company like this would not have done so if it involved any degradation in either the sound or quality the company has been known for. I do like the idea of more power into the speaker and less into heating up the room! Given that the 2.2s are about 15 years old, is your Rowland advice still valid with this new technology? I have to admit that you've found me out.. I am lukewarm about preowned equipment, I did buy the Thiel's used, and ended up driving them to Lexington for a rebuild (GREAT Company and people). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8579 Registered: May-04 | Yes, Thiel has proven themself to be a true high end company who cares for existing clients as much, if not more, than brand new customers. That sort of service is getting increasingly difficult to find. I wouldn't hesitate to try one of the Rowland digital amps. Jeff Rowland is one of those technical geniuses who goes about things with a good ear toward the music and doesn't make a product just for the flashy advertisement he can use to promote a technology. He sells everything he builds and could sell more if he became interested in making a lower quality product at a reduced price. But, his gear is rock solid and should be very satisfying musically. If you can swing the Rowland, I think you'll be very happy for many years. |
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New member Username: SariusPost Number: 4 Registered: May-06 | Thank you again, I'll see if there is a Rowland dealer in my area and if an in home trial of the Concerto might be possible. It doesn't seem to be a web-order sort of item. Your recommendation plus what other opinions and reviews I've been able to find certainly have whet my appetite!! |
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New member Username: SariusPost Number: 5 Registered: May-06 | Ok, as Paul Harvey used to say, here's the rest of the story...... It turned out that the nearest Rowland dealer was a hundred mile round trip away through under-construction gridlocked freeways. I phoned him to see if he had the Concerto in stock. No, but he could order it. I asked if I ordered it and it turned out not to be to my liking with my speakers, could I have a return privilege. No, once I bought it, it was mine. I asked if he could arrange for me to demo one. No, but he had a 'similar' set of mono-blocks and preamp that I could demo. I'm sorry, but I could not work up a lot of enthusiasm about driving a total of 300 miles over bad roads to make a nonrefundable $6,200 purchase of an integrated amp based on listening to mono-blocks, interconnects, and a separate preamp. On the other hand, even though Jan hadn't had the best results with the Parasound and Thiels, AudioAdvisors was more than willing to send me one on a 30 day no-questions-asked approval, so I figured I had only the return shipping to risk. I've got about 10 hours on the Halo A21/P3 combo and, I must say, so far so good. They are worlds ahead of my Roksan and approaching the same class of sound I heard from these same speakers through the monster Krell system that Thiel used to play them at the factory after they were rebuilt. My plan is to get at least 50 more hours of break in before sitting down and doing a serious evaluation and making up my mind. I would comment that while, in general, my preference has always to buy from and support local dealers, recently I have been getting more and more disappointed. I was pretty hot on that Rowland amp, and had the dealer been at all willing to work with me it's highly unlikely that once I had it home and hooked up, he'd ever see it again. At worst, he'd have ended up with a demo unit that, IMHO, he needed anyway. On the other hand, I found AudioAdvisors to be very good and flexible to work with and would be inclined, now, to deal with them again. I would also say that my recent experiences with three other local dealers really hadn't been much better, so it's no mystery to me why local dealers seem to be a dying breed. Customer service is all they've got to compete on and once they lose that, then why not buy by mail? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3004 Registered: Dec-04 | Interesting, Sarius. Maybe forward to the dealers in question? That said, having a $6k high ender kicking around is not a dealers idea of prudent. However, if the mono's were already there... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8696 Registered: May-04 | It is a Catch 22 which small dealers face everyday. You can't sell something you can't demo and you can't risk owning a (fairly expensive) piece of equipment you might not sell. The Rowland amp is rather expensive for most dealers to carry in stock unless they have some reasonable amount of size behind them. Even in a city the size of Dallas I couldn't get an audition of the full line of many high end products which the shops list as sell-able products. I've been in the position of taking back equipment which I would have preferred not to have in my showroom. When I sell the unit again, I've had clients refuse the demo unit since they want to "experience" the break in period to hear if it really happens the way the magazines describe. You can't debate that issue to someone willing to give you $6k. The finicky and sometimes over obssessive nature of too many audiophiles makes this an odd business to conduct. Audio sales don't follow regular business practices and the dealers are left making up the rules as they play the game. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with the Rowland line. I do think they produce some of the best equipment out there right now. You might give Rowland a call to express your discontent. The high end market is, as always, in a state of flux and manufacturers are slow to give up on a dealer who might be successful with their line. However, sometimes enough calls make the decision for the company. Good luck with the Parasound. Though I personally prefer the Rowland, you should have good success with your new equipment. Parasound has always been a responsive company to deal with and they turn out very good products. Audio Advisors are also very good to deal with. |
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New member Username: SariusPost Number: 6 Registered: May-06 | Thanks Jan, I did, to some extent, understand the dealers position and had he not been so far away I might have been willing to give things a try. As it was, a hundred miles to get the demo unit, another hundred to return it, and the third hundred to get the Concerto was the straw that broke the Camel's back. Had it been just across town, well....for the Rowland I might have risked it. What really got me is that 100% of the risk and hassle was on me and 0% on him. As I said, it's also unclear that loving monoblocks is a sure bet that I'd equally love the related integrated amp, though what very little I've heard about the Concerto has admittedly been impressive. Thanks again for all your help and advice. |