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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1027 Registered: Apr-05 | Interesting article www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/technology/25sound.html What do you all think? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1323 Registered: May-05 | "Like many consumers, Ms. Henning, the film company executive, said she was not overly concerned with the details. She only wants to get the best sound she can with the ease of pressing a button." I've always said, the majority of people don't truly care about sound quality, they care about convenience. If the majority of people cared for sound quality, vinyl or open reel tape would be the mainstream mediums. I'm not trying to turn this into and analog vs. digital debate, but as the article said, even CD is compressed, meaning that it doesn't have all of the information that vinyl does. Also, in regards to the format war between SACD, HDCD, DVD-A, etc, I've always said and still maintain that the best sounding one has very little to do with which will win out. The most convient will win. Hopefully I didn't re-open that can of worms either. Obviously, digital music has a place and is far more practical than analog in just about every application. You can't play lps in your car or while working out. Tape SQ degrades quicker than just about anything else (Open reel sounds great, cassette leaves something to be desired, but IMO is better than MP3). I've got nothing against the IPod or any other digital mini player. I use a minidisc player when I work out. I just have a problem when people accept them as great sounding devices. I bought a turntable about 9 months ago. Half the people in my family didn't know they were still being made anymore. Everyone who's been in my house has heard it and agrees it sounds so much better than CD. Still, I'm the only one with a turntable. Pretty sad if you ask me. Hopefully they'll make these 'great sounding' IPods and the like actually sound great. I won't be holding my breath. Surprisingly enough, a vinyl shop near my hometown (Albany, NY) has more college age customers than every other age group combined. Hopefully it's not the 'cool thing to do' and they actually care more about sound quality and less about the latest retro trend. Thanks for the link Stof. It was an interesting read. Viva La Vinyl!!! |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1028 Registered: Apr-05 | I think the point that this article failed to mention is that the whole reason behind this Ipod revolution was the convergence of the digital compress technology (MP3) and the shrinking of RAM chips to a point where it is downsized and affordable. As this large scale integration keeps improving, then the need for the compressed data will go away. So that you can hold all the info of lots of record on one chip or whatever other devices (true lossless). It will be interesting to see the technology evolves around SQ rather than convinence sinct the latter will no longer be an issue. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8550 Registered: May-04 | I read this article this morning and, at first glance, thought it might be worth posting. The mroe I read, the more conivenced I became the article wasn't discussing actual good sound. It merely presented another way to make something sound some way other than like the original. I think the telling statement is here in the wrap up, "She only wants to get the best sound she can with the ease of pressing a button." Yep, that's putting sound quality above all else. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4061 Registered: Mar-05 | I also saw this piece this morning, but got too caught up with work to post it. Since I haven't listened to vinyl in decades to compare it to CD sound I really don't have an opinion on it but did find this part kind of interesting: "Major audio electronics companies like Creative and SRS Labs, along with Audistry, are increasingly turning to psychoacoustic technologies, which manipulate sound waves to convince listeners that they are hearing much more than they actually are. Others, like the chip maker Advanced Micro Devices, are investing in supporting PC-like platforms to help musicians, recording studio engineers and producers to capture, store and mix music more accurately. Charlie Boswell, director of Advanced Micro's digital media and entertainment group in Austin, Tex., said the goal was recordings that sound vastly better and computer-driven technologies that do not get in the way of the artistic process. For example, equipment using Advanced Micro's latest dual Opteron processor was used last month in New York to record the Jammys, an awards event honoring live music performances. Mr. Boswell said the program, which included, among others, Peter Frampton, Dweezil Zappa and Richie Havens, would be available in the fall on a special 5.1 surround-sound DVD (using five speakers and a subwoofer). The DVD, as well as a series of others made with Advanced Micro chips, can be played in any DVD player but is best appreciated on higher-end music and home-theater systems, offering nuances, warmth and dynamics often not found in live recordings, whether on CD or vinyl, Mr. Boswell said. Frank Filipetti, a Grammy-winning studio engineer and producer, said he was so impressed with the audio possibilities of DVD's that he is pushing for the recording industry to use them exclusively and phase out CD's. DVD's have enough storage capacity for an album's worth of uncompressed music on them; CD's require compression, though not as much as MP3's and other formats read by digital audio players. "Why shouldn't the listener at home hear what I hear in here?" Mr. Filipetti said during an interview in a Midtown Manhattan studio while playing back a Frank Zappa track he was readying for a new collection. But companies that work mostly with compressed music say much can still be done to make it sound better. "We are trying to add back a layer of quality, a layer of experience that people don't realize that they are missing," said Chris Bennett, president of Audistry. Anybody here ever compared DVD-A or SACD with vinyl, in 2-channel and on a good quality player? Just curious... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3309 Registered: Feb-05 | No comparison. Play the same piece of music on an Ayre or Esoteric vs a VPI Super Scoutmaster. Wipeout...the vinyl to my ears leave no doubt as to it's superiority as a format that most closely resembles live music (my reference). |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1029 Registered: Apr-05 | The question is, is that sound quality something related to the way the music is recorded on the vinyl or is it the medium that conveys it (record player with needle)? If it is the recording and properties of vinyl I supposed there is nothing that can be done about it going forward. If it's the work of the instrument then it aught to be captured in some other (digital) way. As far as the ease of pushing the button we should probably take into account the experience that listening to music gives people. Most of us started to relate to music at a very early age and were probably more enamored with music in our teen life, where a crapy two speaker car audio represented most of our listening pleasure because of the experiences we were going through as a youth. Why is it that some of the old tracks from the 70's or early 80's make us so nostalgic, yet we can't relate to what most young people listen to today? In that sense listening to an Ipod for most people is a step above the music when they listened to it first and they think it's quite good. In other words the music itself is the psychological pleasure and quality becomes secondary. That is until they have a good experience with a higher end musical device and decide to spend their time and money on chasing better sound quality like us lunatics here. |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 13 Registered: Mar-06 | http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=10310 http://www.physorg.com/news64807495.html What Ms. Xanax needs is working a 46 hour week instead of a 64 hour week; 7 days in the Carribean counting stars at night; drinks, maybe lots of drinks. Then, she might actually indulge herself and try to listen to the music she only thought she was hearing. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1030 Registered: Apr-05 | Interesting point someone made on that thread Jaw posted in that the original recording for the vinyl was a good recording while the digitization of the same for CD's sake was not. I had not thought about that. What if the recording is done entirely in digital how would the A/B comparison with a vinyl sound like? |
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Bronze Member Username: JawPost Number: 14 Registered: Mar-06 | Stof, I wish I knew; unfortunately, it tends to over-complicate (lunacy) my audio hobby too much. Was it Bassey, McCartney or Trane who did the theme to "Goldfinger"; always get these guys mixed up. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1330 Registered: May-05 | I've got some new recordings on vinyl and CD. I don't know for sure how they were recorded, but if I had to guess, I'd say they were recorded digitally. Two albums by Tool, and three by Korn. In comparison to older vinyl such as Black Sabbath and the Doors, the new vinyl isn't as 'vinyl sounding.' My limited re-releases of LA Woman and Paranoid are outstanding, and are the epitomy of why I love vinyl. While the Tool and Korn albums aren't quite up to the quality of the others, they still sound great. With my new albums that I'd be willing to bet were recorded digitally, their's still no comparison between vinyl and cd, the vinyl sounds better. Even on higher end equipment than I own. No one that has listened to my system has disagreed yet or even had to think about it. I think it has to do with all of the down mixing that is required for a cd, whereas with vinyl I'm pretty sure it's significantly less if it requires any at all. Maybe I'm way off base with this one. In my experience an A/B with the digitally recorded LP vs cd results in the following, generally speaking of course - Vinyl - More space around instruments Wider and deeper soundstage More enveloping More dynamic Smoother More weight and presence Can be played notably louder without becoming harsh After I added a speed controller, better pace, rythym and timing (I know this one is contrary to common sense) CD - Thin Rough at frequency extremes Closed in Sound seems to fall apart by becoming overly bright and bass becomes flabby when listened to at higher levels The differences become even more apparent when using a known analog recording (like Paranoid) and a new CD (pick just about any newly released one). Also, most higher end manufacturers are pushing their CD players as 'analog sounding.' I wonder why? I'd honestly never buy a CD again if I could get everything on vinyl. I'd buy it on vinyl and copy it onto CD for my car. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1034 Registered: Apr-05 | Again though what is it about the CD that makes it sound thin and harsh? Is it the aluminum media? the laser beam pickup? Compression? As a media I really dislike both CD's and DVD's. They are too easily scratched and destroyed and prone to getting dirty. I suppose having kids in the house doesn't help things. The argument here seems to be that it is the digital format. I don't think I buy that. I just think that problem is the media and even the players. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4203 Registered: Dec-03 | JAW;- Soundtracks for Goldfinger (1964). Interesting thread, all. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2697 Registered: Dec-04 | Stof, cd's are easily scratched and get dirty. But you still waould buy all vinyl? Is that because you treat the vinly as you would the family jewels, but let the kids rifle through cd's?(after training them of course). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2698 Registered: Dec-04 | The nasally impediment is compression, if all elsa is correct. cd players are another matter. Check the cdp forum for a ton o' stuff lately, especially Ravi. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1036 Registered: Apr-05 | No I stopped using LP's when a friend of mine left a stash she had borrowed from me too close to the fireplace. Andy Gibb never sounded the same after that and I stopped buying LP's LOL. At least I didn't have to worry about finger prints with LP's though. I'm just hoping for a better media, is that so wrong? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2700 Registered: Dec-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=708614#POST708614 |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4064 Registered: Mar-05 | Stu, have you ever had your houseguests do a blind comparison of vinyl vs. CD? Just curious...I guess if your vinyl is in good enough condition so as not to have the taletale snap/crackle it would be interesting to play the same CD and the same LP at the same time and just switch between them on your receiver...of course if the two sources have different volume levels that would botch the whole test! If I understand the gist of what you're saying correctly, the sonic differences are mainly apparent at high volumes? What about say 70db? And are you saying the sonic differences are significantly less obvious if it's relatively new music that was digitally recorded in the studio to begin with? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4067 Registered: Mar-05 | also I've been told that analog produces sine waves and digital produces square waves. Is this just audiophile folklore or is there any actual physical basis? |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 482 Registered: Jul-05 | Eddie- thats a little off on the last post. The gist is that sound is not only sine wave waveform to record, and that CDs only are able to record in sine wave form. There are other sound waveforms which obviously analog can pick up since it doesnt discriminate but the digital environment only allows for sine waves. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa4Post Number: 483 Registered: Jul-05 | On the vinyl vs CD thing-- I have put my money into a very good CD listening set up, and my vinyl is in a relative cheapee set up. Truth be told- the vinyl is right there with the characteristic advantages listed by Stu and Art in the previous posts. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2717 Registered: Dec-04 | Not at all relevant to the SQ, but I would rather Pledge up a disc and slide it in, than fuss over a vinyl platter and care for the setup like a fussbudget. Ever notice how the loudest complaints come from the cheap seats? |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4075 Registered: Mar-05 | Marc, do you know of any links to any more detailed discussions/explanations of this? I just want to verify that it's scientific fact not audiophile hearsay like the magic cables stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1400 Registered: Sep-04 | All sound can be reproduced as sine waves. In theory it is possible to take any waveform, be it sonic or otherwise, and by use of Fourier analysis (1st year university maths in my day), reduce it to a combination of sine waves. You can then re-combine those waves to produce a facsimile of the original waveform. Why do this? Because it is much easier to work with sine waves and you can represent any waveform mathematically. In the case of CDs there is an added bonus. At high freqencies you only need two points on a graph to plot the sine wave that represents that frequency (20khz typically). This is the minimum requirement that allows you to build a full frequency signal between 20hz and 20khz and also explains the 22khz hard limit on ordinary 16-bit CDs. However, as we know, in practice, things are a bit different! In poorer systems it can be difficult to distinguish between instruments in the treble region and I feel this is because we don't have enough bits to define the instruments clearly. It should be noted that most instruments have primary order frequencies below 10khz and perform only harmonically above 10khz. This includes things like violins, flutes, piccolo etc. So I could easily be shot down for suggesting this. It's one of the areas where DVD-A and SACD far outstrip the capabilities of CD (although I still maintain I haven't heard a truly musical rendition from these formats). Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4096 Registered: Mar-05 | Frank, I know this is a tall order, but how would "musicality" look on a graph? Could it be induced through Fourier analysis? : ) |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1332 Registered: May-05 | Ed - I think a blind test would be a waste of time. Even the most maticulously (sp?) cared for LP, stylus, etc. would still most likely have at least one pop or crackle due to microscopic dust and debris, static electricity, and so on. Also, when the stylus hits the record groove, their's a distinct sound that no one (unless they've never heard vinyl) would mistake for anything else. The differences I listed were at all volumes, not just loud levels. The only volume dependant thing is that I found you can turn the volume up louder and still have it sound just as consistant, whereas CD tends to have the ill effects I mentioned earlier. To better put it, I thought my amp was near clipping when I listened to CDs at a loud level. At the same SPL (can't remember exact level), vinyl didn't sound like it was anywhere that point. I haven't busted out the SPL meter in a while, but I think I generally listen somewhere at the mid to upper 70's and low 80's levels on average. If I think of it later I'll double check. Regarding the digitally recorded LPs vs their CD counterpart, their is still a very notable difference. The gap between the CD and LP is somewhat smaller, but not much. LP still has all the advantages I listed earlier. Using arbitrary numbers, if my Paranoid LP sounds 10 times better than my Paranoid CD, then I'd say my Undertow (Tool) LP sounds about 8.5 times better than the CD. The gap is narrowed, but the difference is still readily appearent. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1333 Registered: May-05 | I just had a very interesting conversation with a collegue on Friday afternoon. He's a professor in the music dept at the college I work at. He's played in countless orchestras, is somewhat famous in his professional circles, and teaches just about every instrument. In other words, he knows what live music and instruments sound like without question. He's been out of the home audio loop for a few years now. Every few years he takes a look around what's available with intentions to buy, but hasn't found what he believes sounds close enough to live music. Here's a few loose quotes - "I've never heard a piece of home audio equipment that didn't have a lot of colorations... they (the colorations) may be very musical or soothing, but their still colorations. Nothing sounds the exact way a live insturment does. If you heard live music on the regular basis that I do (note approx 6 hrs/day), they'd be very appearent to you... not that that's a bad thing." "Every few years I get the urge to buy a new stereo system. I listen to just about everything out there and come away empty handed every time. I haven't bought anything new in about 15 years." "The closest format to the real thing by far is open reel tape. I could never afford a good one though. Vinyl is a close second. It sounds very natural." "I don't know exactly what it is, but their's something missing with CD. It doesn't have the same weight or presence that vinyl has, if you will. It sounds thin. I've always thought of it as a convenience and durable format, and nothing else." "mp3 is by far the worst thing to ever happen to sound quality. Listening to music is a wonderful thing... but if that's the only way they know how, then it's good enough." "Out of everything I've ever owned (home audio wise), I miss my old Fisher tube integrated amp the most... for the money, that came closer than anything else. Obviously their is better, but not very many people -myself included- could afford it." Reading some of those quotes, it sounds like he hates the whole home audio thing, but that's not true at all. He definately didn't have the attitude that nothing sounds real, so pick whatever you like the most. Like us, he gets a little frusterated with it at times. He hates the sound of mp3 and even CD to an extent, but loves that it brings music into the lives of more and more people everyday. "In the end, it's all about the music and not what's reproducing it. If you're listening to your stereo and evaluating what it is or isn't doing, you're not really listening to the music." |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4099 Registered: Mar-05 | Sounds like a true mensch: knows his sh*t and knows what he likes, yet not at all egotistical or dogmatic about it. Uncommon in audiophile circles, I find. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4100 Registered: Mar-05 | ...or to put it in another way, the man seems to be in love with MUSIC, as opposed to being in love with loving music. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1334 Registered: May-05 | "...or to put it in another way, the man seems to be in love with MUSIC, as opposed to being in love with loving music." Exactly. Music is his life. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3326 Registered: Feb-05 | Great post Stu! |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1040 Registered: Apr-05 | Very erudite |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1043 Registered: Apr-05 | Here is another question: To what extent does the vinyl media and it's associated analog player in effect mask the issues that come up in recording to give a more "warm" and "full" range? This is in contrast to the amount of sound decoding and software programming that goes into a digital media where they have obsess with every sine wave that translates into bits that are gained and lost and how it affects the sound. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4212 Registered: Dec-03 | Great post, Stu. I totally agree with that last quote. However, to hear just the music alone, from a recording, then you need a system good enough to forget about. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2793 Registered: Dec-04 | After the handlin'procedure' and the cleaning'accumine' I might find a good sacd more convenint. But thats just me. There must be a personal pleasure in the handling, and presentation of the vinyl for all to behold, the cleaning, and the laying of the disc,the presentation of the great liner pager, actually legible to the unaided eye, with all the art work associated, followed by the application of the needle. As opposed to stuffing in a disc. |