Is newer really better
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 73 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi all, time for some controvesy........ I am wondering whether newer is indeed better when it comes to CD players. All the new players seem to have a DAC operating with a word size of 24 bits (well okay), and operate at 192KHz. Now its the 192Khz that bothers me, this is not an integer multiple of 44.1Khz. Why are we lumbered with this sample rate (post digital filtering). Is it some commercial imperative such that all digital filter chips are derived from DVD technology with a base rate of 48khz. This seems weird to me, the sample interpolation by the digital filter must be very complex. I am on my soap box today for two reasons. 1) I own a 1991 vintage JVC XL-Z1050TN CD player, and to date this machine still sounds good to me compared to all the 24bit neue wunder-kinds on the block. 2) I am sucker for well built equipment so I bought a pristine 2nd hand Sony XA-5ES CDP. I know that the XA-5ES dates from 1993-4-ish. But my machine still has a courier label, dated 1998 from when this particular item was shipped from Sony's Talavera Rd HQ in North Ryde Sydney, to a dealer in Melbourne. In any case I have had the Sony XA-5ES modded with some LC-Audio hot up parts. A new clock board, with its own dedicated PSU, and a discrete transistorised class-A output stage, which performs the role of analogue filter and final output stage. Now the Sony is at the moment burnt-in, but not perfect, because the local modder did not fit some 470pF caps across the inputs of the new output stage card, as recommended by LC-Audio for this particular application. The player will go back to the mod shop to have this resolved, and some new Black Gates fitted to the audio board whilst its on the operating table once more. Due to the omission above, I believe some convertor artifacts are making it through the analogue filter. The sound is characterised by a slight upper mid-range hardness. But in every other respect the Sony is absolutely breath-taking. The dynamics are in another league, a real country mile away from anything with an op-amp based output stage. There is no congestion at all during a musical crescendo, instead it just takes your breath away, and pins you to the back of your seat. Despite the slight upper-mid hardness, the Sony is totally compelling to listen to. The precise clocking leads to incredible detail, and firm bass, and excellent imaging. There is a real sense of performance from everything I listen to. Of course it is not live music, but it shares some sympathetic attributes to live music. For example I have been given an entire new library of CDs. Tracks that I thought were just fillers on albums, now seem interesting, and I instantly connect with what the artist was trying to achieve with the track. Also on purchasing new CDs, no more listening to the album many times to let it grow on you, I seem to 'get it' much faster after 1 or 2 listens. It is just totally addictive. What all this leads me to is the fact that a CD player is a system, (servo-transport,clock, PSU, digital filters, DAC, analogue filters, output buffer). Where all the pieces are integral, and of equal importance. It makes me realise how much we are victims of the 24-bit marketing machine. Yes I understand fully that the 24 bit depth is just interpolation and the aim is to push the sample rate up, so any analogue filtering is fairly benign and does not introduce impulse response degradation/ringing in the main audio band. But there is so much hootspa about the 24 bit DAC, that fundamentals like clocking for example are totally overlooked! After all what good is 24 bit word length real or interpolated, if your clock is so poor that jitter induced temporal smearing wipes out any gain in linearity from the greater bit depth. I seem to feel that 192 Khz asynchronous upsampling using complex DSP algorithms is a frivolous activity, and not really conducive to increased musical fidelity. This is some sort of cynical plot, where we have these chips cos they are some kind of commercial expedient to developing decicated red book CD only specific chips, filtering at integer multiples of 44.1. Also now from some of my DIY activities I now know that the interface from the filter chip to the DAC is usually a serial link. So when the next generation of 32 bit chips come out, not much re-engineering will be needed, but a lot of hype no doubt, we'll probably be running at a higher multiple of 48khz. Even my old JVC reads from the 16 bit disc, and its digital filter produces a word depth of 18 bits, and oversamples 8x, so that means the interpolated sample rate is 352.8 Khz. Now how does that compare to your 192 KHz async upsampled chip-set. I guess what I am saying is don't believe the hype. For a modest sum, I have a well built, beautiful sounding player, which firmly kicks the butt of any op-amp equipped new machine. Ciao Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 79 Registered: Mar-06 | Hmmmn, seems the only thing controversial here is my poor spelling and grammar...... Later Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 34 Registered: May-06 | Ravinder, Do you have any comments on those tube buffers from Musical Fidelity, the X-10v3? I have listned to it and I do like it. link: http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/smlx/x10v3.html |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 83 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Dan, I am aware of this product but have never heard it myself. I have heard good things about it too. So if it sounds good to you go for it. But I would say this: My modded Sony XA-5ES has a LC-Audio Zapfilter MK2 class-A discrete transistorized output stage and analogue filter. The Zapfilter has a separate mains PSU, and the PSU makes use of a shunt regulator to stabilise the supply. The Zapfilter sounds extremely transparent and 'fast', most of the time it is like it is not there at all, i.e. it does not seem to have a sonic signature. But the main thing you notice about the Zapfilter is that when the music has a loud crescendo there is no dynamic compression. Instead I am just left staggered how the music soars in loudness to a dramatic climax. Now if the X-10v3 is just connected in series to your regular output stage, there's no possible way that you can avoid the dynamic compression that I find op-amps usually suffer from. I find on most op-amp equipped CD players the soundstage just collapses during loud passages. If your CD player suffers from this common failing, if the tube buffer is transparent enough you will still hear this. Now I know there is a lot of supposition here on my part. But I guess what I am saying is that I don't agree 'in concept' with an extra buffer in series with the regular CD player output stage. I would rather see the CD player modded to have a valve output stage replace the op-amps that are inside the case. I don't want to seem like some hifi demi-god dispensing wisdom from above. These are just my own thoughts, and I may be wrong there are always funny cases where something just works. I imagine that the X-10v3 adds warmth to the sound of a regular CD player. If that works for you then great, I would not question a good thing too much, just trust the judgement of your own ears. But do take along a CD that has some very difficult loud passages and see how the CD player-buffer combination sounds. best of luck, let us know how you get on....cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 40 Registered: May-06 | HI, Thanks for your opinion. I can feel your pain about the dynamic compression. The X-10 seems to help with a larger sound stage and warmer all over, not night and day but juat a litttle. I have the NAD 521bee and am sorry I bought it. It's a great player for $450 CDN, but not up to what I want. I bought it before the audio bug bit me and now I want a better player. I find with the 521bee a harshness in the highs, certain female voices and in percussion. Listing to Jazz music and similar, the 521bee seems a little dry and hard even compared to the NAD 542. It's hard to describe in type what I am hearing. I listned to the Arcam CD42 (? on the model) and that was much smoother and pleasing, I also listned to the Musical Fidelity A5 CD player, but at $3600 no way! I Also like the x-10 with the Musical Fidelity X-ray CD player, and I can buy that in stages to make life easier. But I'm in no rush, so I'll have to listen more and to other CD players. |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 16 Registered: May-06 | The 24-bit is also a hype and serves only to sell as most pop recordings are 16-bit. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 88 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Willy, its all 16-bit on CD with a sample rate of 44.1 KHz. This is the red book CD standard. The 24 bits in a CD player, are produced by an interpolating digital filter, prior to the DAC. But I would argue that the newer 24 bit DAC chips are quite probably less linear than what went before. Since, I observe a trend in high end players to 'thow DACs at the problem' since many use 4 or even 8 DACs and average the analogue outputs to negate the effect of non-linearities in a single chip. It is very hard to produce 24 accurate voltage sources on a tiny sliver of silicon. Since we can see some people using a hybrid techniques like multi level delta sigma in new 24 bit DACs, a la Wolfson. ciao Rav |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2699 Registered: Dec-04 | Ravi, when you talk like that it leaves me all a'quiver.Like rope climbing in gym. Seriously, I am kinda starting to understand(ish). A16 bit player with very stable power supply, a very accurate clock and fast caps should be good, ja? |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 18 Registered: May-06 | I think that is right Nuck and thx Ravi for the fine reply.So and old classic like an Accuphase,Denon,or Sony ES would do the job perfectly or of course recenter models wich still operate in classic 16 or 18 bit mode.Happy hunting |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4205 Registered: Dec-03 | Rav, I read your posts with interest. I am trying to work these things out myself. Most people agree that CDs and CD players got better between 1982 and about 1988. I am not convinced a whole lot has happened since then. I have a new player with Wolfson delta sigma 24 bit DACs. It sounds good. Two years ago I thought that DVD-A and/or SACD might be the way ahead. DVD-A has 24 bit, up to 192 kHz (stereo) on the disc. It is PCM based, a kind of higher-resolution CD. The problem is nobody seems to want it. SACD is gaining ground. Meanwhile, many of us have acquired a whole lot of CDs. |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 19 Registered: May-06 | I think people are getting tired of new hypes who just are there to increase selling.I once replaced my vinyl collection for cd,not only for sound but mostly you need less space with the smaller format.I have about 1800 cd's.Now we are getting SACD and DVD-A remasters of the classic recordings like "Tubular Bells and "Dark Side Of The Moon" to name a few of the most wellknown.I won't replace my collection anymore,whatever format comes next. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 91 Registered: Mar-06 | Nuck, yep, I guess that is what I am saying in a nutshell, but also that some of the latest developments in digital are not what I'd really call progress, just hype and hullabaloo. Willy, yes totally agree, there is a lot of value in those classic machines esp classic Sony,Accuphase,Denon and Marantz some in-expensive tweaks and a new clock, can show these machines in their true glory!! If you are able to find these machines at a fair price you would be wise to snap them up!! I have a XA-5ES it is not absolutely top of the line, but it is beautifully built, weighs 15kgs (pre mods!!!), and internally it looks awesome. I have some pics from a Japanese web-site. I will post below. The XA-5ES makes a Arcam FMJ CD23 that a friend kindly loaned me, look like a low rent piece of junk (although the CD 23 is a nice sounding player). John, yes I think what you are saying is a much better summary than my rant. I just wonder if some of the latest chip-sets are really DVD type technology, bent to a commercial will and applied into CD players. I guess all R&D dollars have been spent on DVD and next gen HT stuff. But that kind of ignores the huge library of CDs out there. I also agree with you that DVD-A seems more like a clean sheet design (ignoring digital watermarking issues), and less compromised than DSD/SACD. But as you know, there are the ingredients, and then there is the chef and the cooking. So various different combinations can be made to sound good or bad. It goes to show that even good 'ole red book CD is quite an advanced technology, so it is hard for a music loving grass roots company, to produce a clean sheet design, that is purely a slave to the music. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 92 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi here are some pics of the innards of a Sony XA-5ES in stock form taken from a Japanese web-site. Unfortunately I dont have any pics of my modded machine. It will be on the operating table again soon, so if I remember I will try to take some pics at that time. You can see from these pics the impeccable build of this Sony unit. I am sure the profit margins on these machines for Sony must be a lot lower than for their regular vanilla non-ES components. I am damn sure if this machine was made by a small specialist company it would have cost a heck of a lot more than it originally did. My Sony is in similar mint condition to the one pictured..  |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 93 Registered: Mar-06 | tiens...  |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 94 Registered: Mar-06 | tiens... |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 95 Registered: Mar-06 | oops... I wanted to post more pics, but the images cannot exceed 600x600 Oh well, if I get a chance, when the Sony is opened up again, I'll try to take a pic of the modded unit. cheers Rav PS It sounds great BTW, the dynamics are quite unlike any CD player that uses op-amps in its output stage. Also it makes music now, it is hard to explain this but the music it plays is infectous, and you just seem to 'get it'..... |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 96 Registered: Mar-06 | one more try...... Here is the Sony's fixed lens transport, the laser does not move, instead the CD is moved by a sled over the lens:  This picture does not show the heavy puck used to secure the CD. But all in all its a nice piece of work. |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 20 Registered: May-06 | They don't make em like this anymore,and when at the price of a middle class car ))) |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 97 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Willy, I notice you are from Belgium, I just want to say I am a big fan of K's Choice I like their music very very much. They are supposed to be an awesome live act, but I have never had that pleasure. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 21 Registered: May-06 | Yes they are a Belgium band,but now the band doesn't exist anymore,and Sarah Bettens went out for a solo career,wich is succesfull in Belgium.There are many great bands in Belgium,like Deus,DAUU,Present and Univers Zero,altrough their styles differs very much from K's Choice.Their roots go back to the Pixies I guess. |
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Bronze Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 96 Registered: May-06 | Ravi, my c521bee player. Will the digital output will bypass everything in the player? So it runs transport then out. I want to try the 521bee as a transport with an external DAC for fun. See how it sounds. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 120 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Dan, yep, that should work..... Just out of interest, what type of DAC are you considering? -cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 100 Registered: May-06 | Hey Ravi. All that I can buy in my area that I know of is the Musicial Fidelity, and it's not cheap. About $1200 here. I'm not sure what to do. The 521bee is good for the money, but that's about it. It leaves a lot to be improved on. Even the NAD 542 is a big step up. But a $1200 DAC on a $450 player seems a little off. One good thing of buying the DAC is that later I can upgrade to a better transport. Don't have to lay it all out at once. I'll have to try the MF DAC with my NAD and other stand alone players / transports. No point in rushing like I did with the 521bee. |
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Silver Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 101 Registered: May-06 | But then again I bought Rachmaninoff, Vivaldi and Mozart last night and the shortcomings of my CDp disappeared as I listened to THE music. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 129 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Dan, I guess the important thing is to get a demo of the musical fidelity DAC with your NAD-BEE as transport and see what you think. Another DAC to consider, which is a similar price to the MF, is the Benchmark DAC1. I have not personally heard this unit, but I am aware that it has received glowing reviews all around the globe. It may be a little hard to find. Also I know the Benchmark has extensive buffering and re-clocking, so that it is less sensitive (all though of course not immune) to the quality of the transport feeding the digital signal. But, one thing to be aware about the Benchmark is that folks seem to love this unit, but its sound is described as 'detailed and analytical', since the DAC1 was originally designed for pro use as a studio monitoring DAC. So the Benchmark may or may not float your boat. I just mention it, 'cos folks say this is one of the best bang per buck units around. So if you can get access to one locally, have a listen very carefully. I do agree that in the short term this seems a little un-balanced. But as you say you can upgrade the transport later, if you find you are happy with the MF DAC. Also, a good point to note is that 2nd-hand Sony ES CD players (like the 707ES, 5ES, 7ES), and TEAC VRDS units can be picked up cheaply, and they are all excellent when used as digital transports. cheers Rav P.S. Also don't discount one box players, like the new Rega Apollo or Saturn. I am sure you have read in this forum, that people seem to rave about the Apollo, and it seems to be at a bargain price. But again it may depend if you can find one locally. |
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Silver Member Username: Daniel_canadaCanada Post Number: 106 Registered: May-06 | Hi Rav, There is a Rega dealer in my area. I'll have to listen to all my options before I buy. I did tell myself to lay off the $$ spending. I also like the sound of one of the Arcam players in the 1k range. We'll have to listen. Thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 22 Registered: May-06 | A good tip for a used player that is superb and cheap at the same time is the , Philips cd 950 or 951 These got the famous CM9 alu transport,also in the top range of Krell,Burmester and Marantz by that period of course.The DAC 7 is also to find in the most expensive cd players of that time( 1992-95).I have an original 950 and now find also a recenter 951. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 192 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Willy, hello there in Belgium! Thanks for the information. In the meantime I have my eye on an old Revox FM tuner. I want something so that I can listen to the radio on my hifi system, whilst I am cleaning the house on Saturday mornings. I hate having to stop my cleaning to go and change a CD!!! cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 84 Registered: Apr-06 | that cd player had two power supplys my philips has some lil dinky one |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 23 Registered: May-06 | I have now my philips 951 and it is placed in my active 930 DSS system also by philips and all I can say I am very happy with the sound and that I can recommand it for anyone looking for an affordable high-end player.I payed about 135 pounds for it.Back in time,say 1992 the philips system was avant-garde,now active(also subwoofer) and multi-room systems are the mainstream of today. |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 24 Registered: May-06 | Included here a picture of the famous philips 951 cd player |
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Silver Member Username: FtalifePost Number: 114 Registered: Jul-06 | In most cases new is usually better. |
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Silver Member Username: FtalifePost Number: 115 Registered: Jul-06 | However when I get used to something I like to stick to what works good. Makes you really wonder if newer is better lol. |
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Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 216 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Willy, thanks for posting the picture of the Philips unit, much appreciated. I will look out for one of these units, perhaps for use in a 2nd bedroom system. I found a local company here in Melbourne, who make very nice and very affordable upgrade clock units. The company is called Burson Audio, and their super clock only costs $125 AUD. If I see one of these Philips locally I will give it a try, togther with a Burson clock module. BTW: Today I bought some ex-demo Dynaudio Contour 1.3se loudspeakers in Birds Eye Maple finish. I have not had a chance to listen to my new speakers yet, since I am re-arranging things at home, and my system is in boxes at the moment. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: Willy_57Moerbeke waas, Oost-vlaanderen Belgium Post Number: 25 Registered: May-06 | Hi Rav, Congrats with the Dynaudio's.They are really great speakers certainly in combination with a vintage Sony or Marantz.I hope you can find a 951 or a 950. They seems to be rare at the moment.For the 950 I would recommand the Burson upgrade,but for the 951,I would say,give it a listen first,because it sounds really great as it is,and with the Dynaudio's,firework garanteed. Greetz; Willy |
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