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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3276 Registered: Feb-05 | I have been talking to some friends here about a turntable upgrade. I was considering a Rega P3. The advice that I have received is that I would be better served with a cartridge upgrade until I am ready to buy a significantly better table than I have now (ProJect 1Xpression). I could then use the cartridge on the new table. For now the cartridge would provide significantly better sound at a fraction of the price. As they said the ProJect actually sounds just about as good the Rega. As I'm in the process of upgrading speakers this sounds like sound advice and advice that I may be able to afford. Does this sound like good advice to you? The two cartridges that keep coming up are the Sumiko Blue Point Point Special Evo 3 and the Dynavector 10x5. Which if any do you prefer and why? Does anyone know how well either will work with my table? Thanks in advance. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 72 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Art, FWIW, i've always found upgrading the turtable itself to be a much more significant upgrade, than upgrading a catrridge. But also in this case going to the P3 would give you a RB300 also, so a double upgrade. Also the P3 is a fairly upgradable platform, lots of tweaks/upgrade parts available for the turntable and the arm alike. I don't have experience of the cartridges you mention, wish I could say better but unfortunately 'tis not the case. But in your shoes I know that I would go for the P3 first, that way getting a fundamental upgrade, and securing the path forwards. (I am intrigued you say that you current deck sounds just as good as the Rega, in that case have you thought of going to one of the other Rega decks instead P5, P7. I am just concerned since moving sideways is not so great, and even though cash is always an issue in this hobby, sideways moves always cost more in the long run...) Very best wishes, I look forward to hearing how this plays out. cheers Rav :-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3278 Registered: Feb-05 | "have you thought of going to one of the other Rega decks instead P5, P7." I have indeed. That's why the cartridge may come first. I can buy the cartidge now and get near the equivalent performance of the P3 with a high end cartridge until I can mate the cartridge later on with a better table. Thanks Ravinder for the thoughtful reply. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8476 Registered: May-04 | Yes, I think buying a P3 is simply a mostly sideways move. Both tables are well constructed and offer good but different performance. I see little point in buying a P3 at this time. I also see little point in changing catridges though you are relying on us to know which cartridge you presently own. Why don't you lay out what you are trying to accomplish in this change and then we could possibly do a better job of giving advice. What are your goals and what do you want to change from where you presently exist? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3280 Registered: Feb-05 | My current cartridge is a Grado Blue. What I am looking for is greater detail without sacrificing the smooth analog sound that makes vinyl special. One friend who carries the Blue Point in his store thinks that it will provide the detail I'm looking for but sounds a bit digital or mechanical as he puts it. Another dealer I know in Seattle told me that the Dynavector does all that I am looking for without the drawbacks of the Blue point. So I guess I'm asking if anyone here has experience with either or both especially on a table in the price range of mine. Is the Dynavector difficult to mount? I understand that the Blue Point tracks well, does the Dynavector? Along with detail I'm looking for a refined sound that doesn't lose it during comlpex passages. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2611 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, I forgot to ask, how well equipped are you for aligning? Are you using geometric tools alone, or can yo get a scope? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3283 Registered: Feb-05 | My daeler does all of the mounting. I will be purchasing tools again soon. Got rid of mine years ago when I thought I was finished with vinyl...yeah right..lol!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8482 Registered: May-04 | With the music you listen to, I would not consider the Sumiko. The higher priced Blue Points make better sounds than the base model but are still better suited to someone with Nuck's taste in "concertage". I would also tend to ignore "tracking ability". It is a term Shure promoted with their cartridges and has little if anything to do with sound quality or record wear. It is similar to quoting wattage on a receiver. Next to worthless. Very highly respected MC cartridges "track" poorly and at high VTF's. It doesn't stop people from buying them to lay their classic shaded dogs. I would also be slow to jump on the MC bandwagon, but that is merely my personal preference. Lower priced MC's are often less apealling in real life than the magazines make them sound. Few cartridges are difficult to align, particularly if someone else is doing the alignment. I have to say I'm unfamiliar with the arm on the table you own, but this would be my concern with the Dynavector. The heirarchy of turntable design is still table/arm/cartidge. A lesser cartridge will sound better in a higher quality arm than a higher quality cartridge in a lower quality arm. I suspect you consider the arm on your table to be quite good, and it well might be. But, I would stay with a cartridge which puts less energy into the arm than the Dynavector. I also suspect one of your dealers has told you differently. It is your decision at this point but I would do one of two things if I were in your situation. One, I would do nothing until I could afford a better table and arm entirely. The table establishes the low end of the noise floor and will allow little to no more micro-dynamics than you presently have no matter the cartridge. The image stability and soundstage are also determined primarily by the table and will change with a new cartridge only due to the inherent character of the cartridge. The table will still be the limiting, or unlimiting, factor in how the presentation comes across. The arm establishes the top end of the dynamic scale and the table and arm together will set the amount of "open, airy" feel to the final sound. And, of course, placement and isolation of the table trumps everything. Until you've done everything you can to increase the performance of the basic operating system, you will not hear what you are paying for with a better cartridge. You will hear a different presentation as the cartidge is a transducer and will affect the sound accordingly just as speakers will alter your perception, if not your quality, of sound. Two, I would stay within the Grado line if you presently like what you hear and move up to a better cartridge within the line. Even with that advice I would say you have to know where the limits of your tonearm stop benefitting a new cartridge. For the most part, the Grados are extremely easy on tonearms. The new wooden body designs are slightly less forgiving of the arm than in previous generations but you can still do well with a better Grado. You will move up to a better cantilever assembly and stylus mounting system which should improve detail and openess substantially. The overall frequency balance, however, should not change. Since you didn't mention wanting a frequency balance change, I assume you are happy with what the Grado is now doing. Being all of the same design group, the higher end Grados are not going to put much more energy into the arm than your present cartridge. Therefore, if you consider your present cartridge a good match to the tonearm, and the rest of the system, the better Grado should work well. I would consider the Dynavector only after I had moved to a much better arm than anything which comes on a pre-assembled table/arm combination. That's my advice. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3284 Registered: Feb-05 | Thank you for the information Jan. I will take it under advisement. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8486 Registered: May-04 | Now that you've read my advice and said your tonearm is good enough, consider whether your table is good enough to deal with what the tonearm feeds it. The energy the cartridge puts into the arm has to be disipated somewhere. With the exception of many knife edge bearings, almost all uni-pivots, some linear trackers and the Well Tempered arm, the tonearm should be designed to dump the energy of the cartridge/arm combination into the table. If the tonearm can't effectively get rid of the energy of the cartridge, the result will be smearing of the sound. The table's plinth acts as a reservoir for this vibration and it should effectively move the input away from the arm and main bearing while damping the signal. How well your table does this is also a determining factor in which cartridge might work best on your arm. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3287 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually Jan I'm not sure if my tonearm is good enough. I'm not sure how to go about making that determination. It's a fine budget table with an even better arm that some reviewers have used with ridiculously expensive cartridges (a Koetsu comes to mind) with good results. I'm still not sure what I'm looking for when mating the the arm with a better cartridge. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2621 Registered: Dec-04 | 'concertage' is equitable. Jan, although 'smearing' might be an applicable description of the effect, 'sustaining' is an effect that is often sought after, although usually only for one genre.(or listener). That and $1.95 gets you a coffee. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2654 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, are you feeling some 'resonance' through the kit, or is the whole 'vibe' that doesn't sound right. Loose terms to be sure, but ones we are familiar with. Are you looking for depth, clarity(sharpness) or body? Your table looks like a winner from my seat, and your kit to the amp is right. You might ask Artself 'What do I need?'. "What is the sound that I seek?" and "why don't I send Nuck a beer?" Sorry that last one snuck in. But really, what do you seek? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3289 Registered: Feb-05 | I heard the sound today Nuck. A Rega P7 with a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge played on my amp with my phono section. It sounded breathtaking. Teri at Stereotypes knows vinyl. Someday........ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2655 Registered: Dec-04 | What was the selection? Was the P7 that far away from where you are? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3290 Registered: Feb-05 | The P7 with the Blackbird was light years away from where I am today. I don't what she was playing but it sounded great. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2657 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, you might want to bring in some of your own recordings, as a reference. Just to keep you grounded, like. All in good taste, my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3291 Registered: Feb-05 | Trust me Nuck the $2600 P7 and the $800 Sumiko Blackbird is better than my outfit as it ought to be. I have new speakers at home that I'm listening to though. I bought the Demo Studio 110's. I bought the Totems and returned them (never got them home, another story). I will tell the story of the ProAcs another time as it is bedtime. Work awaits. The Paradigm Studio 20's are a remarkable speaker. I thought at first that ProAcs had been bested by them, then I followed the placement instructions and the ProAcs just came to life. It was weird. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2658 Registered: Dec-04 | Beautilul, Art. I await the review of the 110's. Holiday for me tomorrow here in the GWN. Do tell. The Totem story may be rife. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 76 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Art, I second Nuck's point about taking some of your own reference material when demoing the P7, or any other piece of equipment. I always take some CDs that are burned into my brain, so that if the new gear I am listening to does anything different I notice immediately. I also take a CD which is a lousy recording, but which contains good music, to see how the equipment copes. Since I still want to be able to enjoy good music poorly recorded!!!! Finally I take a CD to push the system to its limits, sort of a woofer destroyer. But hopefully no real woofers will be hurt during my demo. Here are my reference CDs. Burned into my brain category: Storyville -Robbie Robertson (good recording too!) James -Laid K's Choice -Almost Happy Poor recording but good music: Sheryl Crow - Eponymous album Woofer Destroyer: Muse - Absolution Placebo - Black Market Music Just thought I would share some of my fave discs! ciao Rav P.S. ooops!!!! You are demoing a P7 so CDs won't get you very far, apply similar principle as above to black 12" discs made of melted combs...... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3292 Registered: Feb-05 | Guys I wasn't demoing the P7, it was playing when I arrived at Stereotypes to demo the the ProAc speakers. I brought 20-30 of my favorite CD's to demo. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8501 Registered: May-04 | 20 to 30? Art, you need a CD burner. Or a suitcase. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3293 Registered: Feb-05 | I used my hemp organic grocery bag.....lol! No really, once I arrived at the store I chose 6 to use for the audition. More on the audition later on the speaker thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1305 Registered: May-05 | Art - Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. For what it's worth... I've heard the Blue Point Special on the Xpression. The table/arm has no problems with this cart; the dealer had this setup to show what was possible from the deck. I liked it, but I think we listen to different music. My tastes are closer to Nuck's than yours I believe. At times the cart can get a little digital sounding, and how much of this is acceptable to you is your call. I've heard from many dealers that the Blue Point is a good cart, but you can do better for the money. My dealer installed a Blackbird on an Xpression for a customer and said he was very surprised how well it turned out. It didn't get every last bit of performance out of it, but did a very respectable job none the less. Before you think the dealer and customer are out of their minds, the customer had the Blackbird from another table he sold off and the Xpression was for a second system, so he figured why not give it a try. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 758 Registered: Feb-04 | Art, I agree with the comments about the BPS sounding "digital". I find it desiccates the music. The Dynavector 10x5 is a much better cart IMHO. Of course, your decision depends on your taste. I tried the Blackbird in my system and found it to be fatiguing, even though I was impressed by its rendering of detail and PRAT. The person I borrowed it from, a reviewer for an audiophile publication, loved it in his system. One can conclude that personal preference and system synergy has a lot to do with your choice of cartridge. As far as upgrading your analog system, I would skip the multiple incremental upgrades and save up for a system that you can be happy with for many years. It doesn't make much sense to exchange a Project Xpression to a Rega P3. It makes more sense to upgrade to a P7 or a VPI Scout or other comparable TT. That's the level where you'll really get a significant improvement in sound. Anyway, that's my two cents. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3299 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Stu and TC. I'm leaning toward waiting until I can and buy the P5. Although there may be a deal coming up through my dealer. One of her employess is thinking about selling his P3 w/RB600 tonearm and the Dynavector cartridge. I would consider that. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8535 Registered: May-04 | Obviously you're free to do as you wish. But I think that purchase wouldn't gain you much other than the cartridge. Obviously an audition would be the best way to decide here. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1395 Registered: Sep-04 | Art, Just found this topic. I agree that the P3 is a sideways move. Putting an RB600 on a P3 is a very silly thing to do. The P3 is limited by its components (bearing, plinth and motor - in particular motor mounting). The Xpression is in a similar league to the stock P3 performance-wise, if different in presentation. The arm in particular is mechanically very sound, though I don't know what cable is used in it. In our shop we use the Dynavector 10x5 as our main demo cartridge. It's the highest quality cartridge we would normally recommend to be put into the P3. Better cartridges can be used but the improvements wrought are more severely limited by the deck. The cartridge is good enough to show the differences betwen P3/5/7/Michell Gyrodec very easily and dramatically. It's a very open sounding cartridge with excellent detail and good pace and rhythm. I used to sell Sumio BPSs and can vouch for their open treble, but somewhat mechanical (digital?) nature. Another cartridge of which I have considerable respect is Grado's Prestige Gold. I find this a thoroughly entertaining cartridge. Not as open or resolute as the Dynavector but very cohesive with excellent rhythm. Over here it's just over half the price of the 10x5 so it presents as great value. We don't sell them, but if we did we'd sell a lot of them (inasmuch as any vinyl sales get made of course). On the subject of the P5, this is a very good turntable, as you'd expect. However, in its standard form, I find it lacks many of the engaging qualities of its Rega brethren. Don't get me wrong - it's a good deck, but I just find its timing is lacking. The P5 can be upgraded with a relatively inexpensive power supply - the same as the one that comes with the P7 - and this changes the character of the P5 completely. We have not sold a single P5 without the P7 power supply. The difference is ridiculous for the cost. I wouldn't buy a stock P5, but I wouldn't mind having a PS'd P5. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3302 Registered: Feb-05 | Frank, considering that I have a Grado Prestige Blue on my 1xpression do you think that it would be a wise/unwise move to put install a Grado Prestige Gold or the Dynavector. A friend of mine here has suggested that putting a better cartridge on the 1Xpression that I can take with me when I move up to a better table is a good idea. He is a dealer who doesn't sell the cartridge that I was interested in (the Dynavector). He does carry the Grado's and the Project tables. Your input is greatly appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3303 Registered: Feb-05 | Also he stated that the table/arm would support the better cartridge and give much better appreciably better sound. Again I thank you for your considered input. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1310 Registered: May-05 | Art - If you're thinking about saving up for a P5, have you considered/heard the VPI Scout? Retail, it's $350 more - $1650 vs $1300. IMO it's a far better TT, both sound and build wise. The P5 is a great deck; I'd love to own one. I just think the Scout is so much better. To me, VPI has the McIntosh-esque impeccible build and sound quality that Rega can't really compete with. Over time, their's probably just as many upgrade possibilities with either should you get bored. I think the VPI will take you further that the P5 will. If it was my money, which it isn't, I'd buy the Scout without any hesitation. Sorry if I confused the issue any more. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8537 Registered: May-04 | I'm a big fan of Rega. Sold a bunch of their stuff. And, a big fan of VPI. Sold as much as I could of their stuff. I owned one of the first three Rega Planar 3's to be imported into the US. (Had a carbon fiber Infinity knife edge bearing Black Widow tonearm on it with an ADC XLM III cartridge. A Dayton Wright pre amp, Citation 12 amp and double Advents. Very sweet in 1978.) In 1984 I traded the Rega for my VPI HW19 with the RB300 arm and have not looked back nor sideways. VPI and Rega have many qualities in common that should make many audiophiles feel likewise about the wisdom of buying from either company. But, I agree with Stu. And, so does the value of the US Dollar which is once again headed downward in comparison to other world currencies With that information in mind, if you are dead set on the Rega table, now would be the time before the price begins rising once more. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3304 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't have the money for the P5 or VPI at present but thanks for the reply. That is why I'm still exploring a cartidge change. One that I could put on a better table in the future. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1313 Registered: May-05 | I knew you were looking into the table for down the road, and that's why I threw out the VPI idea. In your shoes, I'd keep what you've got and get the table and new cartridge together. This way you'll know how well they go together and avoid the possibility of having to get yet another catrtidge because the combination isn't quite what you had in mind. Can you live with the Grado Blue until you can swing the new deck and cartridge, or do you need a cartridge change now? Obviously, if you're set on a specific table and have a definate time frame in mind, that changes everything. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3312 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah Stu I can and have to live with it. I spent so much on speakers and interconnects I don't have enough for either a turntable or cartridge. So Stu, did you say you bought a mat for your table? What was it and what effect did it have? Oh and quite importantly how much did it cost? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1325 Registered: May-05 | I read that you bought some new stuff on the Old Dogs thread. Glad to see everything worked out. I bought Herbie's Way Excellent Turntable Mat (such a stupid name). I had an annoyance with static electricity and it took take care of it. I say annoyance because it wasn't a big problem, but enough to irritate me. Other than that, music sounds less muddy, tighter and more focused. It's actually along the same lines as the Speed Box, but not to the same extent. I think it grips my LPs a little better than the stock felt mat, but I'm not really sure how to tell. The mat is $50, has a 90 day return policy, and is lifetime guaranteed. The guy sounds a little odd on the phone, but bear with him. He knows what he's talking about. He should be able to answer any questions you have. The sell a lot of other isolation and dampening devices too if you're interested. I've read a few positive reviews, but can't remember where. Here's a link - On another note, I picked up some AudioQuest interconnects last night. Magnolia Home Theater in Best Buy has all AudioQuest stuff on clearence due to some contract issues between Best Buy and Monster. I guess Monster isn't happy that they've lost almost 80% of their sales in the stores that have Magnolia and AudioQuest. I picked up a set of Copperheads for $35 (retail $75) and King Cobras for $85 (retail $175). I'm gonna do a little experiment to see what I'm going to keep if any of them. I'm going to start a thread, I just don't know where. I also don't want to start a war with the usual suspects. I haven't heard differences before, but then again I haven't tried anything noteworthy for any real period of time either. They've got a 30 day return policy, so I really have nothing to lose and everything to gain. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3313 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent Stu, thanks. Iwas listening to $500 Audioquest speaker cable yesterday with the Totems (after my cables failed miserably) and they were pretty good. I think I like the Analysis Plus better but can't say for sure as I listened to them in different systems. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1327 Registered: May-05 | If you're interested in AudioQuest stuff and don't have a Magnolia Home Theater near you, PM me. They've got everything at least 50% off. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3427 Registered: Feb-05 | Finally have my rig sounding as it ought to, which seems the first step in understanding where I need to go from here. Stu, I bought the Herbie's mat about 6 weeks ago and have been struggling with integrating it. Finally after experimenting with multiple cheap ways to isolate the table (where it stands as I have no option to move it) I settled with putting the feet on hockey pucks also put the speed box on one. By far the best sound yet. Also using the Michell clamp which with this setup provides just the right dampening with the mat and the pucks. The balancing act that one encounters while trying to get even the simplest analog setup right is not to be underestimated. When I upgrade tables I will be looking to keep it relatively simple (relative to what?.....I know). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3196 Registered: Dec-04 | Pucks. It brings a tear to my eye, boys, it really does. Art the pucks are a classic, thick and heavy, but transmit the low freq. just right. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1422 Registered: May-05 | Thanks for the info Art (and Nuck). I too am stuck with where my TT is. My wife got me an oak stereo cabinet a few years ago as a birthday gift. It looks very nice, but am told it's probably the worst thing for a TT to sit on. I've got some hockey pucks laying around from my travels with an NCAA Div I team. When things around the house calm down, I'll give them a try. I've also got some squash balls laying around that I've been meaning to try out as well. Someone here told me they had great results with using a maple board on top of half squash balls. I think it was either John A or Two Cents. Also, I remember seeing a link a while back about isolation and tests. Something about putting a clear plastic cup of water on your TT stand or plinth and walking around the room to see if your isolation has improved or is adequate. I think it also said to turn on the deck with the cup on the plinth (without playing a record). If I can find the link I'll post it. It was pretty interesting. Once my so-called vacation is over, I'll probably have a little more time for try a bunch of different things. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8765 Registered: May-04 | . Buy a cheap stethoscope at the drugstore and place it on the cabinet or table to listen for the effects of placement and tweaks. The cup and water work if the effects are gross and the movement in the table/support are reasonably large. Probably placing the cup on the stereo cabinet right now would give you some movement at the water's surface while playing feedback inducing music at reasonable volume. For more sophisticated listening as you tweak, a few dollars invested in the stethoscope is worth the money. You can probably find one for around $20 or less, if you shop around. http://www.allheart.com/allheartscopes.html . |