Archive through May 07, 2006
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7953 Registered: May-04 | Garbage in - garbage out. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 27 Registered: Apr-05 | cool. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 133 Registered: Dec-05 | RAC, what kind of power conditioner do you have? I have an older one.. forgot the brand, actually.. very beefy thing. But losing your lushness is not good, no? |
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Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 28 Registered: Apr-05 | "what kind of power conditioner do you have?" psaudio "But losing your lushness is not good, no?" I sometimes do that for Lent... To my ears "Lush" (or "warm") is not the way live music sounds to me (I play guitar and piano occasionally), but "lush" does sound nice. I can return to that sound when I want by not using the conditioner. The way my system sounds now, I am reminded of the old Nautalus records' slogan: "Better highs and a tighter bottom" -- my bass response is better (punchier? and with more presence) and my highs and mids are clear (I know that is an ambiguous word), more like the real thing, according to my memory -- and with little coloration to my ears. The imaging and soundstaging has improved, too. I suspect that there will be changes to the sound when I change the tubes. I tried "winged c" 6l6s in the amplifier (with the power conditioner) and the rcas in the preamp and the sound of this combination still gives me a headache (the combination to "C"s and RCAs sounds grainy/ edgy to me). So, I guess it's what sounds good/ better/ best to the listener's ears that matters most. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 135 Registered: Dec-05 | "I sometimes do that for Lent..." LOL! (I seriously considered giving up music for Lent. Hey, should have have a discussion about religion? ;-}) |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 136 Registered: Dec-05 | Actually, I'm with you in that live music must be our reference. I actually DO think that some amount of "lushness" is realistic, but, yes, it can be overdone. What I mean by "lushness" is attacks and decays done right, which is one thing tubes tend to do better. Anyway, I'm sure that your power conditioner did not strip *this* quality from your system. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 139 Registered: Dec-05 | Guys, I was JUST KIDDING with the religion comment! Didn't mean to STIFLE THE THREAD! Somebody say something! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 723 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul: We used to call comments that were total conversation stoppers a "dead bird." Looks like you dropped a dead bird on this one! |
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Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 29 Registered: Apr-05 | dead bird, eh? perhaps we should notify the cdc... (with apologies to Hawk) |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7971 Registered: May-04 | While we each have different ears for music, I often found anyone whose reference for live music came from being onstage had a very distinct quality they were listening for. Not unusually, guitar players heard the guitar first and drummers the drumset, etc. Beyond their particular instrument of choice however, the qualities they desired were seldom the same group of qualities I would encounter when dealing with someone who was more often the audience member rather than the performer. Not only were the performers listening with far less sense of the presentational merits of the sound (what an audiophile would call staging and imaging), but their sense of correct tonal balance was, to my recollection, never similar to an audience member's memory of the live event. Not to paint with too broad a brush, but ambience was typically far down on a musician's scale of importance; and when present was also not akin to what the non-performer claimed to want when using the same terminology. For informational purposes, I am running the Svetlana Winged "C" 6L6's in my amplifiers though not with any RCA tubes in the front end of the amplifier nor in the pre amp. "Grainy" is not how I would describe the sound I hear. In short, I am quite pleased with the sound from my amplifiers and would rank the Svetlanas as among the best tubes I've used over the last 20+ years. We are, of course, dealing with totally different circuitry between RAC's amplifiers and my own. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1787 Registered: Dec-04 | After years of consideration, I have come to the conclusion that listening'live' as a reference towards reproduction is totally innacurate. I heard ac/dc 'live' at sarsfest in Toronto, and it sounded totally different than my recorded ac/dc. As well, I could not reproduce the Rush tracks presented 'live' on my home kit. I suppose my kit is lacking somewhat. Or is the 'live' sound only for strings or a trio? I have never had a trio in my basement to find how they sound 'live'. Rather a conundrum. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 144 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck, Yeah, the 'live' reference is pretty much valid much more for acoustical music - jazz, flemenco and (to a lesser extent, I think) classical. The sound of a live acoustica jazz trio or quartet especially can be remarkably reproduced by a very good playback system. With rock, the studio is *meant* to sound different from live. This is why they simply don't play as a band in the studio, as do most jazz combos! Miking & recording each instrument individually, then mixing, is simply inherently completely different from a live performance. I am very big Rush fan, BTW. These days, I don't listen to much rock, but 75% of the rock I do listen to is Geddy, Alex, and Neal. They are untoppable in their genre. Paul |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1793 Registered: Dec-04 | Pauly, Pauly, where have you been? So glad to see another trio fan.(non jazz) Die hard fan here, except for a couple of lean years, I am a drummer, dreaming of Neal's solo's. Agreed that the 'rock' bands are recorded with such accumen that there is a 'clinical' sound to a lot of recordings. However, I have been to a lot of concerts where the band can 'reproduce' the sound quite well. I hate that a lot of bands play 'on the box'. But, a concert is still a concert, so 'ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances'. Thanks, Paul. BTW you have a great looking kit in type...send a pic? |
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Bronze Member Username: DarkmusicDover, Delaware Usa Post Number: 30 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan: Interesting observation regarding musicians. Overall, I agree -- when I go to a show, I listen primarily to the guitar(s) or to the piano. (I did attend a Celtic Harp concert this weekend; no guitar, but lots of fun.) When I listen to my system in the evening, however, I want to hear what all the musicians in the hall (or the studio) sound like. So, maybe I'm a hybrid listener (ha!). What tubes (preamp and drivers) are you using with the "C" 6L6's? |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 147 Registered: Dec-05 | Nuck: I saw the boys from Toronto in '04 on the 30th anniversary tour - that was quite a show. 10th row. They are such an amazing ensemble live - such precision and grace! Rock at its ultimate... transcends the genre. I've never taken pics of my stuff. Maybe. For some reason, it strikes me as a little silly. :-} Paul |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2893 Registered: Feb-05 | I've seen Rush 3 times. First time was the "All the World's a Stage" tour in the 70's. Last time I saw them was in the 80's. Not really a fan anymore but they were fun back in the day. Bought the last live DVD for nostalgia. First time I saw them Cheap Trick backed them up at the Armory in Rockford, Illinois just before the release of their first album. Cheap Trick was amazing. They flat blew Rush off the stage. Hard act to follow. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 156 Registered: Dec-05 | toobs rool |
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Gold Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1890 Registered: Dec-04 | While fools drool |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8055 Registered: May-04 | Where angels fear to tread. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 165 Registered: Dec-05 | Let's jump-start this here sagging thread. I recently (last month) traded the excellent Melody SP3 amp in my 2nd system for a friend's Arcam A65. I found the sand-amp to be bright, hard, lack soundstage, and sound strained at moderate volumes (driving DynAudio 42s). Mind you, both amps are rated around 40W/ch. And, the build quality difference... HOLY COW. I'm not even going to go into it. The real clincher - we both paid the same amount of money for these amps ($700, though, granted, the Melody was on sale). If people only knew... Paul P.S. My friend *claimed* to like his amp better.. said the tubes were "too lushy" and lacked detail. Whatever... I know it's partly a matter of preference, but I can't understand how anybody could favor that A65 sound. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8249 Registered: May-04 | What opinion does your friend have of tubes? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 900 Registered: May-05 | Well, glad to see we're back on tube track. I had the chance to introduce a 20 something year old to vintage tube sound. Played him a bad Elton John recording so he could compare it to what he hears on his iPod. Then, played the Eagles double CD, live in concert. Very good CD and I had forgotten how much I like the Eagles' sound, it was absolutely beautiful. He was wowed and said his iPod will never work for him again. Also, played him a little Nora Jones and ole time Elvis and he was amazed at how "real" it sounded. As for RAC's comment on the power conditioner, I had a similar transition in sound from the change in ICs between the Fisher and Arcam. All I can say is WOHOO!!! The Altecs picked up a bunch more bass, not that they needed much more, and the midrange punch increased and the treble cleared considerably. The soundstage is better, the music much more dynamic and I am one happy camper. "Don't go taken my . . . " valves. Dave |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4113 Registered: Dec-03 | There is an article on microphony in May HiFi News, using the PrimaLuna PL 3 and 4 for tests. I can confim that my PL2 sounded a whole lot better after I moved it away from the speakers, at the end of long speaker cables. Especially on loud. It seems to me that most people these days have their amps between the speakers, which is too close. Infra-red remotes and TVs encourage this. In the days of turntables, most serious HiFi people had the sources and the amps as far from speakers as possible. Perfectionists would have them in another room. I think people with tube/valve amps should be aware of the microphone-like properties of tubes/valves, and take care to elimate feedback from speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 166 Registered: Dec-05 | Jan, My friend has an old tube headphone amp he likes a lot. Main problem for him was budget - but when he was buying his gear (recently) he wasn't too interested in hearing about the moderately-priced valve amps for some reason. Another issue is that his wife will castrate him with a rusty razor blade if he buys anything else (even though he could probably make a near-even trade on audiogon). Thus, I'm not sure how 'unbiased' his stated opinion was, and I wasn't about to push him. And, after all, the Arcam amp is decent for the money. It doesn't sound 'bad' - I just much prefer tube sound, which I found soo much more like the real thing, like all of us here. But, yes, opinion it is, at least in part. John - just read that article yesterday. Interesting stuff! I have looked into tube dampers, but they are indeed pricey when you have a pre/monoblock setup. I don't want to think about it. $15/each is way too much. My 'room' is very open and my stand, while not 'audiophile-grade', is very heavy and is off to the side of the speakers. And I rarely listen above 80dB. I look forward to the follow-up next month. iPodz - used mine last week for the first time in 1+ year on my London biz trip. I use Apple lossless which means "only" 40 CDs or so - that should be enough for anybody. That and my cheap-but-great Koss PortaPros are a decent ultra lightweight portable setup. Made the 8.5 hour coach flight bearable. I do regret not being able to make it to any of the shops out there - the 2nd one on your list, which carries Hyperion speakers, I had really wanted to see. But they closed at 5:30 and I was at the office till 8 every night. There may be another trip at some point. Cheers! Paul |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8259 Registered: May-04 | Dampers are good things when they are effective. Many are not when they loose their grip on the tube as they age and become affected by the heating/cooling process. Isolation devices and placement are the best bet overall for microphonics. I removed the hold down screws from the circuit board in my pre amp and replaced them with Sorbothane pads. The board now rests upon another layer of isolation. Tube dampers are positioned around the tube socket and tube coolers are on the tubes themself. (All of the passive components are damped with a bit of heat resistant silicone gasket material.) The top cover is also supported with Sorbothane pads and a double sandwich baggie full of lead shot is placed on top of the cover plate. The feet of the pre amp have been replaced with AudioQuest large Sorbothane footers with a small TipToe inserted in the underside of the pad. This all sits upon several layers of marble tile with more Sorbothane between each layer. The whole thing is supported by a suspended shelf in the DIY rack. I would suggest anyone using tubes invest in some Pearl tube coolers. Somewhat expensive but worth the money in my opinion. Buy a few at a time if need be. http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/WEBPAGES/PEARL.htm http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/TubeCooler_QuickStart.pdf |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4116 Registered: Dec-03 | Paul, If I'd known you had an iPod, I would have recommended the Regent Street AppleStore, too. Yes, the good, specialist HiFi stores tend to have old-fashioned opening hours, because of staff costs. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3033 Registered: Feb-05 | Jan, those tube coolers look like a good investment. Thanks for sharing that. I can't afford them now but they are definitely going on the wish list. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4120 Registered: Dec-03 | Just to copy from Jan's message: "Isolation devices and placement are the best bet overall for microphonics." My point was that placement habits have changed, and younger listeners ("how old I feel") may not know that keeping your speakers apart from the electronics and source was once the standard, and worth going back to if you have a tube/valve amp. Long speaker cables do not degrade the sound, if they are any good. Acoustic feedback to the amp certainly does. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8269 Registered: May-04 | And placing the amplifier(s) directly behind the speakers isn't bad, actually it can be beneficial with a tube amplifier, if you isolate the amplifier(s). Obviously this is easier to do with a pre/power combination than with an integrated amplifier. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3113 Registered: Feb-05 | Anyone here have experience with tube dampers...Jan, Rick? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8298 Registered: May-04 | Depends on what type you're considering. I've put a link on the "Tweaks" thread to a site that manufacturers several isolation/vibration control devices. Their tube dampers have received good reviews though I've not used any of their dampers. I just bought a CD mat from them. Obviously the first thing to do is to isolate the amplifiers before you head into specific tube dampers. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2242 Registered: Dec-04 | A brief imposition, gentlemen, please excuse me. I have found an amp ST80 tube job up for sale, is this an appropriate way to begin the tube experience? Would something else be a better start? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3118 Registered: Feb-05 | What's an ST80? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3120 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry I was half asleep. A Dynaco ST 80..... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2251 Registered: Dec-04 | Sorry Art, yes the Dynaco. Or would I be better off to cut to the chase and start with something a little further along, but for once, the dollars must be held in check, say, 800 USD. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3125 Registered: Feb-05 | Depends on who you talk to. I wanted to enjoy tubes without much of the hassle described to me by my tube loving friends so buying a new unit was just the ticket for me. There are a number of fine tube amps for around those dollars (a little more). Or you can go this route... That's page one of the A'gon tube integrated section. Stay away from the Jolida amps, they aren't very well built. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3126 Registered: Feb-05 | With EL34's it's a little softer sounding than mine but many folks prefer that. I know a guy who bought my amp and switched out his KT88's for EL34's pretty much making it a PL1. I listened to thr PL1 at the store, loved it, in fact it was what sold me on the amp that I bought. I only bought the 2 because it gives me more options for tube rolling. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8301 Registered: May-04 | The Dynaco ST80 is a transistor amplifier. ( |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3132 Registered: Feb-05 | Good point....lol! Nuck let me point out that your Atoms are a very difficult load...I'm told by Jim at NWAL that he measured it and it is the most difficult of all Paradigm speakers on an amp. That is perhaps why so many reviewers had such good luck with them using high dollar amps. The Atoms are not a good speaker for an inexpensive tube amp. However, contrary to popular belief the Maggie MMG's are very inefficient but also a very easy load on amps. A near to steady 4 ohms, very little fluctuation. People have reported very good results with MMG's and tube amps. I intend to get a pair for occasional listening someday. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2255 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, guys. In fact I have Psb Alpha's, but I expect the same results as they are very commanly built. I had the Lings in mind, actually, to start. And thanks Jan, I went from memory(poor) rather than the link I should have used. Beyond which, if I up the $, where would be a good start? Knowing I like to Rock, but not necissarily with the tube kit, I would like a little headroom. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8304 Registered: May-04 | Buy your hats a size larger. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8305 Registered: May-04 | First, I don't know that I would use the Lings for "rockin'". They do very well with anything that doesn't require the drivers to deal with loud and complex at the same time. Most everything Tim builds is far less efficient than you're used to with the PSB's. That will require some adjustment on your part, I would think. Or, some spare tweeters. Second, is this going to be a total change out in equipment? Speakers and amplifier? At the same time, or do you want to use the PSB's for a while with the tube amp? Budget up to ... ? I assume you're going to have to buy this on a recommendation without an audition. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2256 Registered: Dec-04 | Geez, Jan, I do one at a time. The lings will not be rockin', they will be 1 meter from listening, at the desk.Probably with the T-amp to start. I am thinking '1 after 909' from the beatles. Second, not a change out at all, a second(third) setup for now. Yes I would start the setup with the Psb's(knowing the bad matchup to start), but trying the Ling's with a fair tube amp would be nice. The budget is the hard part(as always). I wanted to start small, and tinker a bit(ST70), however, I may as well go better with a better amp, although you have a soft spot in your heart for the Dynaco. Remember, in the end(maybe years) I do like to Rock. Tip O' the glass. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8306 Registered: May-04 | How about a DIY tube amp? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2260 Registered: Dec-04 | I am wide open, iron in hand, awaiting the post, Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8307 Registered: May-04 | Well, I was going to suggest a Bottlehead design, but they seem to have gone to fairly small wattage amps. That probably won't work unless you want to go to a high efficiency speaker. Take a look and ignore the funky site. http://www.bottlehead.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8308 Registered: May-04 | Otherwise, I would begin with an ST70 and check ouy Curcio's site for mods. http://www.curcioaudio.com/cust_3.htm |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2265 Registered: Dec-04 | I have looked at bottlehead before and kind of put them aside, as the amps are not quite what I might listen to. The curcio site piques my curiosity. Would such high powered amps surennder a lot of quality at normal(8w) levels? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8309 Registered: May-04 | Probably, Curcio has been around for a while and has a great reputation for sound quality. Tim has a kit amp on his site that might be of interest. http://www.timn8er.com/s5_electronics_k.htm |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2274 Registered: Dec-04 | And I thank you again, Jan. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 916 Registered: May-05 | Jan and Nuck, I hate to get a commercial in here BUT Tim and I are thinking about a joint venture. I'm trying to pick up Dared vp-16 tube integrateds and we're thinking about matching them with a decent CDP and Emmas and selling for $1500 package price plus shipping and packaging charges. So Nuck, if you can wait, we may have a deal for you. Also, I'm trying to get a line on some of the higher end Dared integrateds, if you're interested in a little more amp and we'd probably put together a package without a CDP for anyone who already has one. Anyway, we'll know more in a couple of weeks. So, take a look at the relatively interesting Dared site, it's kinda hard to follow, though. We're thinking Desert Audio has a nice ring to it. If you've got no audio at home, you just gotta do something about it, I guess. http://daredtubeaudio.bravehost.com/VP-16.htm |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 917 Registered: May-05 | BTW, Here's a review on the vp-16s. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dared2/vp16.html |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2307 Registered: Dec-04 | Canadian distribution can be arranged through an existing distributor whom I know here. A teaser? Bahstahds! Less talk, more synthahol(Worf). More amp, have Rotel cdp1072. Do tell. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3163 Registered: Feb-05 | Looks like a good deal Nuck. Good speakers and a cool tube amp all in one....that's livin'. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 918 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, Canadian distribution is possible. I sold a Denon 2805 on eBay to a guy in Montreal last year and mailed it up to him. But, you have to remember I live in Spokane. The other options is, we meet on the border, hand off the packages and you run like crszy to the North. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2313 Registered: Dec-04 | The feds would track me down and shake me down for border money. Your feds would track you down to see what was in the envelope from BC! And they don't care about money! LOL |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2320 Registered: Dec-04 | looks interesting though |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 921 Registered: May-05 | Heck, All you need is a car to outrun those Mounties, after all they're Mounted Police, what can they do on horseys? And, they're doggies are smelling for drugs, not tubes. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 922 Registered: May-05 | Heck, All you need is a car to outrun those Mounties, after all they're Mounted Police, what can they do on horseys? And, their doggies are smelling for drugs, not tubes. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2368 Registered: Dec-04 | Dave, I kinda figgured the herb would be headed your way more than mine, via BC. However, if I buy anymore audio stuff, I may, potentially, raise the ire of my lovely wife for the first time ever. On the other hand, I do have a fairly sweet tax check coming my way. I have a little venture brewing, and shipping to Port Huron, MI should be easy. I can carry from there. Why, oh, why do I keep playing with this hobby? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3201 Registered: Feb-05 | I'll say it again.... TUBES RULE !!!!!!!! Get on board Nuck! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 924 Registered: May-05 | What Art said. Now, the real problem is I am entirely happy with my 2 channel tube set-up BUT dang if I didn't start looking at this Dared stuff and the VP-845 stereo amp looks absolutely sweet, apparently sounds even better and I suspect it would be an incredible amp addition. Mama - I've got to quit looking at other things or I'll be in the money desert to go with the audio desert. LOL What a hobby. TUBES STILL RULE |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 182 Registered: Dec-05 | Dakulis, I, uh, can relate. No more amps for me!! For a long time! But I don't regret the Cayin purchase - it is sweet indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8378 Registered: May-04 | http://www.stereophile.com/reference/406howard/ |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 928 Registered: May-05 | Paul,I thought i was there a month ago. Now, we'll see if I can avoid the amp bug for a while. Jan, interesting article. If I got all the drift, my tube amp doesn't sound better because the euphonic distortions are more "pleasing" as earlier postulated. My tube amp sounds better because it reproduces sound more accurately, or maybe a better term, realistically, no? If that wasn't the point, you'll have to explain it to me, I'm kinda slow, you know. LOL |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8392 Registered: May-04 | That works. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 170 Registered: Jun-05 | i posted this thread about the PRIMA LUNA PROLOGUE 2 under 'integrated amps' but jan suggested i post here, so i'll copy and paste if you dont mind. got curious about this amp the other day(thanks art) and brought it home form the shop today for an overnight stay. i'm REALLY enjoying it. dont ask me for differences between this amp and my arcam a85, at least not yet, i'm just busy enjoying it. well i will say, smooth, full, weighty, warm for the moment. those of you who own the amp, i'm curious what speakers you running and what volume you are able to achieve. reason i ask is that my ears are pretty sensitive at the moment and i cant crank it too loud to see what it's limits are. (i'm asuming i might be able to do that one day) i dont plan to have parties with the amp, but this is my only slight reservation. i did turn it up to 80db and that was exactly 9 o'clock on the dial, and to 85 for a wee bit(10 on the dial) and i'm very happy with this, possibly even for the long term. i'm using 86(?) db/w 4 ohm dynaudio focus 140's. but should i ever desire more output i'm wondering what would work? spendor s5e possibly? i've got the night to decide, but it may be out with the old and in with the new. cheers b. one more question. with an amp such as this that has no pre-out, is there any way to achieve bass management when using a sub? and one more. how much do replacemnt tubes cost, and how often do they need to be replaced. if not for this amp then in general. i'm very new to this. thanks btw, just put on some heavy electronic music and i was getting 90db at 9 o'clock on the dial with no sign of strain at all. very impressed. i am a bit worried about clipping and damage to my speakers though, is there any chance of doing this at 9 or 10 on the diall. would it only depend on where the dial is or do speaker sensitivity/impedence and spls have anything to do with it? sorry for all the questions. |
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Silver Member Username: PaulfolbrechtPost Number: 184 Registered: Dec-05 | Bvan, Welcome. I don't have this amp (I do have a PL 3 pre) but I can answer some questions. 1st of all, the power of this amp is certainly amp for speakers of moderate efficiency, which means most speakers, as you've discovered (yours are in that camp). Not likely you'll be disappointed lest you throw a really nasty load on them. In general, there's no doubt that "tube wattage goes farther than SS wattage", as silly as that sounds on the face of it. I forget the technical reasons - I'm sure Jan can help here - but it's very true in practice. I think it has to do mostly with current delivery and the essentially non-existent clipping of tube amps - starting to run out of juice doesn't produce horrible sound. I have found recently that my new Cayin integrated can manhandle my Gallo Reference 3s in triode mode with only 22W on tap. For a sub, go with speaker-level outputs (assuming your sub has such inputs). This is always better anyway. Tube prices very greatly. Your input/driver tubes will last an extremely long time - probably 10K hours or more - and you will likely never have to replace them unless you want to. Expect 1-2K hours from your power tubes, with replacements running $10-$50 or so. Very good tubes (I forget if these are 88s or EL-34s) can be had for $15-$20 each. HTH! Paul |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4156 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan, I've had this amp for about 10 months now. For me it drives Quad ESL 63 speakers (electrostatics) which are rated at 86 dB/W, too. I have settled on the 8 Ohm output taps. I have all the volume I need. When everyone is out, including the neighbours, I occasionally play CDs at 12 o'clock and I can get occasional distortion at that level. Not so with an FM tuner, even though it sounds just as loud. This transient distortion is annoying but not painful in the way that transistor amp distortion is - like sawing bricks, as someone posted here recently. There is a reason for that, as you will find posted early on, and perhaps someone else can explain. Also, I have to say it only occurs at ridiculous volumes; pushing the whole system beyond useful operational limits. My speakers are probably particularly fussy, with a recommended notational amp power of 50 -100 W, and a safety cut-out if the current goes beyond a certain value. I have never hit the cut-out. So I would say relax and enjoy the music. You are much less likely to damage your speakers than with a solid-state amp, especially most with a similar power rating. I think you will find the Spendor is also low sensitivity (by today's standards) but do not have the specs at hand to check. Apart from Art, the other PL2 owner here, I think the first, is "Two Cents". I can write on the pre-out but I think that is enough for now. If it is a massive problem you could consider the PL separates, since you are still in demo mode. BTW I am on all original tubes. No problem. In fact they seem to get better with age. Other thing I have learnt; keep the amp away from feedback from the speakers. We have all forgotten about acoustic feedback in the solid state world, but it comes back with any tube amp, as with a turntable. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 172 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks for the replies both of you. the power issue has been laid to rest. bass mgmt not really needed i think. i'll happily go with speaker-level connections when i get a sub. (but i'm getting more bass now and wondering if i even want a sub) has a scan though the tube talk archives, and read a pdf jan has posted called ' a taste of tube'. very informative. but i'm still wondering about the feedback you mention john. what to do, put amp on something absorbing or isolating like sandbags? or keep it out of the corners where bass energy is the highest? thanks b. |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 186 Registered: Dec-05 | Bvan, Glad to hear you found your amp.  I was reading this the other day, pretty good info on tube amp power and clipping: http://stereophile.com/features/357/ |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 173 Registered: Jun-05 | intersting read, thanks. yeah, i feel like i've come to the end of that raod. or at least a very nice picknick area where i can pull over and rest for a long while (theres still the whole vinyl thing left unexplored) b |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4157 Registered: Dec-03 | "i'm still wondering about the feedback you mention john" Well, the way I had everything set up meant that the amp just went in between the TV and the left speaker. To the side of the speaker, but only 6" away. I now have the amp on a nice solid chest of drawers (sorry, I forget the US word; "Chesterfield"?) full of stuff, and out of the line-of-sight from the speakers, in an alcove. Much better. Paul;- I wrote and posted before reading your post. "For a sub, go with speaker-level outputs (assuming your sub has such inputs). This is always better anyway" I agree completely. Even better is no sub at all, unless the mains are microscopic. I had a 5.1 system with sub and center channel. Now I use two "legacy" Quad ESL speakers (- 6 dB at 35 Hz) and a PL2 tube amp, and even the family thinks it is a big improvement - even for movies. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1350 Registered: Dec-03 | Bvan, Welcome to the wonderful world of tubes. I think you will find you can drive "most" speakers easily with your new amp. I drive a pair of 84dB Spendor S3/5's to sane listening levels with a 10 watt Sophia Electric integrated. Hope you have many hours of listening pleasure. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3219 Registered: Feb-05 | "i'll happily go with speaker-level connections when i get a sub. (but i'm getting more bass now and wondering if i even want a sub)" I never thought I would be happy with speaker level sub connections again. Boy was I wrong! As has probably been noted I really love this amp. I'm driving Paradigm Studio 20v3's and getting as much clean volume as I did with my 250 watt per channel Hafler power amp. The Sub integration is perfect. All is well. Now I am experimenting with power cords and tube dampers. The first tube damper I used was the 3M Elastomeric o-rings and although they gave more detail and bass they made the amp sound bright so off they went. Awaiting my next ones. Do you have any questions I might answer Bvan? |
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Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 95 Registered: Nov-05 | Hello. I hope you don't mind me jumpng in here, but was wondering if any of you have had a chance to compare some of the tube amps you've been discussing side by side. I just auditioned the Carey SLI 80 and it sounded very good, but is a bit pricy. I was wondering how the Cayin, Primaluna PL2, and Carey compare. What are the differences in sound? Are the Cayin and PL2 in the same league? Another option would be the Rogue Audio amps. Unfortunately the Carey is the only one I'm in a position to listen to. I appreciate any feedback you may have. Thanks, Bill |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3220 Registered: Feb-05 | A friend of mine sells the Rogue amps and they are very impressive. In the affordable range If I had not bought my PL2 I would have picked up the Rogue. The PL2 is a little easier for a tube newbie (auto-bias and all). I also felt that the PL1 and PL2 were just bit beefier sounding than the Rogue. As an added bonus you can buy the PL2 with an excellent phono stage. I very much like the Cary and Manley amps but they are out of my price range. I also feel that the Prima Luna is a very good all around amp. It's very musical and involving regardless of what genre I'm in the mood for. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 174 Registered: Jun-05 | thankd for the welcome. bill, there was a cayin tube integrated at the shop that looked very much like the pl but a bit wider, called the 60 something or other. i asked my trusty dealer his opinion of it relative to the pl and while he wasnt specific he was unentusiastic about the cayin. said it was drier i think, and that he didnt imagine it would appeal to most peoples tastes relative to the pl. art, i do have on more question. where does one buy tubes from? cheers b |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1351 Registered: Dec-03 | For tubes, may I suggest: For new Euro, Chinese, and Russian tubes www.tubedepot.com For New Old Stock (NOS) tubes, caution buyer beware. There is a lot of junk and fake stuff out there. Here are a couple of sources I deal with and trust. www.audiotubes.com www.vintagetubeservices.com I do think you need your amp and stock tubes to run in for 50-100 hours. It will sound better after 100 hours than right out of the box. Stick with the stock tubes for a while and listen. I think only then, will have have a better idea of what you might like to change or improve. Have fun........ |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3222 Registered: Feb-05 | Upscale Audio claims one of the largest selections of tubes around. They are also the distributor for Prima Luna in North America. http://www.upscaleaudio.com/ Another popular place to purchase tubes is The Tube Store. http://www.thetubestore.com/index.html Rick's advice about running in the tubes is sound. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 176 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks for that. checked out all the links and the best deal on a KT-88 seems to be $22.50 do it would be $88 to retube then? i'll probably wait till the stock tubes have died before i think of experimenting. how does one know when its time to retube? do they blow or do can you hear the sound degrading over time? cheers b. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1352 Registered: Dec-03 | You will hear it. The sound will break up, and the distortion will keep increasing. Eventually the tube will just quit. Thanks Art.......Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8399 Registered: May-04 | Tubes can blow out. Though, if they have made it through the first six weeks, the chance of a tube going out due to the tube itself having problems is slight. Typically a tube will be destroyed by another component, most likely a bias resistor which is fed by a capacitor and a diode, going off value and feeding an incorrect voltage to the tube. If you ever see the tubes begin to change color, you need to shut the amp down and investigate the situation. It's a good idea to turn out the lights in the room every now and again to just examine the condition of your tubes. A tube can get to the "cherry red" stage before it finally goes out, but won't exist for long at that stage and will be damaged by the time you notice the change in temperature. As with light bulbs, the most dangerous time for tubes is when you first turn them on for a listening session. Though many of today's amplifiers have soft start provisions for the tubes, this is still when you need to pay attention to what the tubes are doing. Are they all reaching operating temperature at the same time and coming up evenly? Are there are sparks inside the tube or other changes which might indicate a tube or circuit problem? Quick flashes of light are not usually a problem with output tubes and glowing blue means the tubes are burning off some gasses. This is most typically seen in new tubes. Take note of how your tubes look when brand new. Depending on your amplifier, you will notice tubes wearing out in different ways. Any amplifier with adjustable bias will need the bias cranked higher and higher to get to normal values. Eventually the tube can't be brought to operational levels. Common sense says you should have replaced the tubes by that time. Fixed/automatic bias amplifiers will gradually loose power, which is indicated by the tube loosing its "glow", and this means less headroom on dynamic peaks. When you begin to hear minor amounts of distortion on peaks, notice the tubes are not as bright as they once were, or sense the amp just sounds puny, it's time to go looking for new output tubes. Pre amp and driver tubes will typically last for years beyond the lifespan of outputs. Equipment with a standby provision means the amplifier will sound better faster when you want to listen, and may actually extend tube life by avoiding the complete powering down and up of the tube's working parts, but will eat up some degree of tube life if your listening sessions are few and far between. On that note, output transformers will require a long period of time to come up to operational temperatures. I suggest everyone let their amplifiers sit powered up for at least a whole day to listen for any better sound quality when the entire transformer is at the correct temperature. You can then decide whether you want to power the amps down at some time or leave them running at idle for better sound all the time. Leaving them at idle, even with cool running amps, will use up tube life. In general, the cheapest tubes are what you buy to have on hand as spares. You should have at least a pair of output tubes to use as spares and one of each small signal/driver tubes on hand. You can solve many tube amplifier problems on your own if you can swap out some cheap tubes for a tube that might be suspicious in its operation. Talk to the tube retailers about lines such as National which repair shops normally order for cheap repairs on old tube gear. These spares are the tubes you stick in the amp to check for problems rather than putting your $65 output tube in danger. Most tube dealers know the average tube user is over the top with paranoia and worry that they will pick the "wrong" tube for their amplifier. Though no one can tell you how a particular tube will sound in your system, most of the tube retailers will spend time talking about the expected sound of a particular tube and guiding you to choosing the correct tube for your system and tastes. As Rick suggested, when it comes to NOS tubes, buyer beware. I've all but sworn off NOS tubes as I just can't hear the value compared to the best of what is generally available today. Tube rolling is usually fun for any tube amplifier owner. However, you should have some idea why the manufacturer chose the tubes which came in your equipment. Did they choose the JJ tube because of its sound or because they expected the tube to be plentiful when replacements were needed? Many manufacturers put in tubes they expect to be reliable over tubes which sound exceptionally good. In general, very delicate tubes will have a different sound then very rugged tubes. It is quite easy to get less sound quality from tube rolling if you don't know what you're doing. Use common sense. For anyone new to tubes, I suggest you research and employ three things. Isolation from vibration, clean power and tube cooling. All tubes are microphonic and getting the equipment isolated from the resonant field of airborne or mechanical vibrations will go a long way to improving your sound. Clean power should be a no brainer for anyone using tubes. Tube cooling will benefit both sound quality and tube life. I would urge everyone with a new tube amplifier to read the back archives of this thread. Lots of good information has been posted here over the life of the thread and not all of it will automatically be repeated. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4161 Registered: Dec-03 | That is an outstanding post, Jan. Let me thank you. |
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Bronze Member Username: WhatzzzupppMontreal, Quebec Canada Post Number: 32 Registered: Nov-05 | hi i have the fortec ultra i dont know how to download in entering the new bin i dont have the nagra what shall i do and what website should i go to work it out please if anyone could help i will be very greatful. thanks in advance adamzoz@hotmail.com |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 177 Registered: Jun-05 | agree, thanks very much jan. i'll read the back posts. need to find out what tube cooling involves. also the clean power issue. been thinking a lot about this lately, even before i decided on tubes, but to be honest i'm not feeling like i know very much more about this subject than before. i'll get back to it. cheers b. |
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Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 96 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks to all for responding to my post. Art, I read a review that stated that the PL2 produced some transformer hum and mains noise. Has this been the case with your unit? The review was otherwise very positive. Paul, Have you had a chance to compare your Cayin A-88-T to the PL2 or the Carey SLI 80? If so, how would you describe the differences? Any noise with the Cayin? I could probably swing the cost of the Carey if necessary, but was hoping there was a tube amp that was comparable at a bit less money. Any recommendations would be welcome. Thanks, Bill |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3223 Registered: Feb-05 | My PL2 is dead silent. More so than any amp I've ever owned. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4162 Registered: Dec-03 | So is mine, Art. No hum, even with volume control fully clockwise. Jan's superb post explains some things I have observed. The nice, even, red-orange glow of the filaments in my four KT88s; the intensity increases momentarily as I switch pre-set stations on my old FM tuner, with the "crunch" that comes from old switching. Must get that tuner fixed. Years and years ago (I have told the tale before) I was offered a refurbished Quad tube amp (again, tubes are called "valves" over here, or, at least, they used to be). A complete set of replacement valves (Mullard) would have come with it. I only just learned, from Jan's post, why that would have been a good idea. I now plan to obtain a set of replacement valves for the PL2, just for the time when the first one goes. Bvan; - you seem to have the anxieties a bunch of us had earlier on this thread! It seems like you had the PL2 for a home audition, on Friday. I wonder if you have it for the whole weekend, and how things are going. The owner manual is very clear - do you have that? Also, I wonder about the dealer you found. I lived just over the water from Copenhagen for many years. I never found a knowledgable, specialist dealer, whom I could communicate with. It could have been a problem with language. I never found a valve-tube amp retailer, there, either. Bill;- Frank A suggested somewhere that the PrimaLuna markup is steep. PrimaLuna is Dutch, and has good international connections into specialist HiFi retailers. Personally, I don't mind paying to keep these people in business. The service I had was excellent. At the same time, there are, at least in UK, some direct-sale places such as Icon Audio who sell similarly-spec'd, Chinese-made amps to their own design. These seem to have more features for the price, such as tape monitor outputs and so on. I'm not sure how it is in the US. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 178 Registered: Jun-05 | john, the amp had to go back the next morning unfortunately. should get my own one next week some time. it didnt have a manual. i havent even spoken to the dealer about it, or tubes in general, but i will. he apears to be quite knowledgable about most things hifi and speaks good english. most people here do luckilly. its a good shop, they sell up to top of the range jm lab, ml, wilson, macintosh, audio research, krell etc. so i'm hoping they're up on their valve amps. b. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4164 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Bvan. That's good to know. My demo unit did not have a manual, either. There was some problem with the manuals having serial numbers of units written in, and these did not correspond with the numbers on the amps themselves. The Prologue One and Two manuals are available as pdf files for download, linked from:- http://www.primaluna.nl/manualdownload.htm The PL2 manual is clear, and written for people like us, new to tubes/valves. Essential, in my opinion. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3224 Registered: Feb-05 | I agree about the manual John. It is simple and covers all of the major questions that a tube newbie mught have relative to their amp. Well done. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 179 Registered: Jun-05 | great, thanks john. i tried to find such a thing, but couldnt even find a prima luna website. only the upscale audio one. will get to it now, and the archives i'm busy plugging through. more questions sure to follow. cheers b |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4165 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, friends. My pleasure. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3226 Registered: Feb-05 | John, I don't know if you're running an aftermarket power cord in the PL2 but if you aren't you may want to. The difference is startling. First I tried the Signal Magic Power Cord and it was not good with this amp. More detail but the sound became smaller and quite edgy. Put the stock cord in and lost the detail but regained the music. I called the dealer where I bought the PL2 and asked her advice (she is a well known skeptic around tweaks but is a recent convert to power cords). She told me that they are having great success with 2 power cords. One is the Kimber PK 10 and the other a very expensive Analysis Plus. She uses the Kimber all over the store with confidence. I decided to try it and wow it really is effective. Much improved bass resolution and extension. The highs are more refined and there is no loss of midrange information (can't wait until it breaks in). An essential upgrade for the PL2. Didn't know whether to put this in tweaks or here, so here it is. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2401 Registered: Dec-04 | Again with the power cords? I just cannot, justifiably, via long distance understand the difference between a o-ohm power cord and a high buck 0-ohm cord.It's just me, I suppose. When I get the tube amp I am considering, it will be hard wired into a dedicated, conditioned circuit, to eliminate 2(two) questionable connections, and I will do it with standard wiring, unless anyone can suggest some roll stock of audio cable better than 14/2 standard. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3227 Registered: Feb-05 | Nuck I listened to several power cords on several components and the differences were startling. Even my wife could tell the difference both in the store and at home. I too will soon have a dedicated circuit (electrician will do it as I am not mr handy). At present I am on the grid with the local college and get about as clean a power as I could hope for. Both Terri and Kevin at Upscale told me that I wouldn't get the most from this amp without ditching the stock power cord. I learned that they were partially correct. Ditch the stock power cord and find a GOOD replacement that works well in your system. The Kimber is fantastic for me. I am listening to Tom Harrell "The Art of Rhythm" and have never heard it like this...wonderful. |
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Bronze Member Username: BcollinsRockport, MA United States Post Number: 97 Registered: Nov-05 | Art, Did you ever compare the Carey to your Primaluna? If so, how would you describe the difference? -Bill |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3228 Registered: Feb-05 | Bill, I was not able to do a direct comparison. Wish I could have but no matter I couldn't afford the Cary and the PL2 is fabulous. Sorry I couldn't help. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2409 Registered: Dec-04 | Of course I will take your ear for it Art, but still... How would a straight feed into the xo of the amp improve over 0 ohms? Maybe I read too much into it without your ear, after all. I shall follow all leads and choose accordingly. |
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