ProAc, Dynaudio, Totem, Paradigm S2, Von Schweikert............
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3269 Registered: Feb-05 | It's upgrade time. I am shopping for a monitor that will fit into my system and musical preferences. I listen to 80-90% jazz and classical and 10-20% variety of anything from Cheap Trick to Marvin Gaye from Celtic to Japanese drumming and so on. Speakers will have to be driven by my Prima Luna Prologue integrated tube amp (40 watts per side). I have a very good sub so filling in the bottom end will not be an issue. Also have good heavy speaker stands. Looking for standmount 2 ways. Budget $1200-1800. These speakers will be replacing Paradigm Studio 20 v3's which are a very good speaker in their own right. Any comments on the speakers I've listed or others would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. |
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Bronze Member Username: Cousin_itPost Number: 47 Registered: May-05 | They're a little above the $1800 mark, but I really like the DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 3. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1002 Registered: Apr-05 | Art, got the upgrade itch again? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3271 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm afraid so Stof. I want a little more detail, but more than anything I want better imaging and soundstage depth. The Studio 20's are a great value and I still enjoy them a great deal but I can't get my last listen to ProAc's off my mind. So far I've listened to the ProAc's and S2's. I've listened to the others but not recently enough to make a decision on them so I will have to hear them this weekend. Right now I'm just trying to narrow the focus a bit. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3272 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW thanks for the suggestion CI. We actually have a dealer for DeVore in Portland, check this out. http://www.twobaldguysaudio.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1003 Registered: Apr-05 | but how would you know what they sound like with your system? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3273 Registered: Feb-05 | Any audio establishment I deal with has to have a liberal return policy or I won't do business with them. I'm actually leaning toward the ProAc's because I've always loved ProAc and have always wanted a pair. I have also listened to them with my gear at Stereotypes in Portland and loved it. The ProAc's are efficient and very easy on the tube gear. They are also a very good all round speaker. They don't sacrifice much regardless of what genre you are listening to. The ProAc model within my budget is the Studio 110. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4032 Registered: Mar-05 | Good God, those little speakers go down to 33Hz according to the website! Wonder how they manage that with a front port design... http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/studio110.php I'd love to hear them myself but doubt I'd have much luck here in the Houston audio desert... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3274 Registered: Feb-05 | They sound very good Edster. They aren't perfect but then again what really is. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2594 Registered: Dec-04 | So you were asking only for justification, Art? You have it! If your opinion and your own ears say so, then make them so. And send an e-mail once in a while, huh? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3277 Registered: Feb-05 | Asking for opinions Nuck not justification. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2600 Registered: Dec-04 | The speakers themselves look tremendous. Like Ed said, the low response at 33Hz seems very low for a single 6.5", the porting must be a trick indeed! Would there be much port noise or whoomph, I wonder? And if the 110 tested at 33, how would in room do? The build quality looks to be very good, and the XO and drivers are common to the line, it seems. Is this a case of great flexibility or just economics, I wonder. The 140's look to be interesting, and both 6.5's are running the same XO frequency, as opposed to others makes of twins with slightly offset responses. From what I can see on the site,the 110 should be very coherent and timely accurate. When Bvan brought these up I had no idea that you had heard them, Art. If it comes down to A/B with Dynaudios let me know, I'd like to come there and listen too! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 211 Registered: Jun-05 | art, you heard sonus faber? i've always quite liked them and have heard of a few people using them with the pl2. b |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1362 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey Art, Sorry I'm late to this thread. You know I love my Spendors. I think you owe it to yourself to listen to the S3/5's. Classic BBC sound. I think they'll bring a smile to your face. I'm listening to them as I type, and yes I'm smiling eye to ear. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3285 Registered: Feb-05 | I've listened to the Spendors on a number of occasions Rick and I like them alot. They are however very inefficient. They do well with your tube amp I take it?. Bvan, I haven't listened to the SF's since my favorite store quit carrying them. I'll have to see where I can here them in Portland. Fred's in Portland has a pair of Totem Rainmakers in maple in stock. I'm mighty tempted! Anyone with any real world experience with the Rainmakers. Frank, I think you have considerable experience with these. Could you comment please. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1363 Registered: Dec-03 | Art, I listen to my music at what most folks would consider, sane levels. I drive my S3/5's with a 10 watt Sophia Electric, and have never run out of gas. Your PL2 would have all the power you would ever need. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 212 Registered: Jun-05 | i've read of pmc being a good match for the pl2. just read a hifi news review of one of their standmounts, and the impedence and phase angle graphs look very tube friendy. b |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2642 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, are you concerned with the efficiency in general, or do you have a specific attribute in mind?(a mid push)? I think yo have enough flat power there to drive an 87db or so without concern. Unless(hello Nuck) you want to lift the more subdued passages of Verdi or such. Is that your area of concern? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1392 Registered: Sep-04 | Art I believe I commented in a private message. The upshot of it was that you need to hear them before you buy. Any speaker has to be a considered purchase and when you're spending this kind of money you don't want to make a mistake. I think Rainmakers are great, but they use metal dome tweeters and can shriek if the amp isn't man enough - and I do wonder about that since I have no experience of the PL. Did you get my PM? Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3316 Registered: Feb-05 | The ProAcs have turned out to be awesome. My Paradigm Studio 20v3's are now (or soon to be) listed on Audiogon. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/paradigm_studio_20v3.htm http://www.audioreview.com/cat/audioreview/speakers/bookshelf-speakers/par adigm-reference/PRD_298867_4290crx.aspx More comments on the ProAcs later. Thanks for all of the replies from folks here. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 4073 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, do tell what 33Hz sounds like coming from such a small speaker...are you keeping your sub with them? |
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Bronze Member Username: Eieiei0101xPost Number: 87 Registered: Jul-05 | How much are you expecting for the paradigms? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3317 Registered: Feb-05 | They are up at Audiogon for $625 OBO + shipping. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2718 Registered: Dec-04 | But I don't have an Oboe. Oh wait, never mind. |
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Gold Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 1156 Registered: Feb-05 | glad you enjoy your new speakers art! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 216 Registered: Jun-05 | tell all art! did you get to listen to any dynes? i'm happy with my setup but i dont have a proper frame of reference having not heard tubes with any other speakers than my dynes, which is why i'm curious in other peoples setups. i found a shop here that sells proacs and a lot of tube gear so i plan to hear something like your setup very soon. i'm hoping this might give me a better idea of the inherent compromises in a 40W tube/dyn combo. all very interesting indeed. enjoy the new additions b. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3321 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Gavin and Bvan. I'm in the midst of some projects but will tell more later. I am very delighted with the new setup. These ProAcs are fabulous with every type of music. I auditioned everything I could afford and to my ears these were the clear winner with the Totem's coming in second place. Everything else was distantly behind. The Dyns work well with 75 watt Mac tube amps but that's the least you can hear them with in Portland. They do not work well with low powered solid state amps. Experience Audio in Seattle sells ProAcs and Dyns and recommends ProAcs for tubes. The Studio 140 and 110 are his biggest sellers. He stated that they sell more of them than all of the other ProAcs combined. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2752 Registered: Dec-04 | The Dyns work well with 75 watt Mac tube amps but that's the least you can hear them with in Portland. They do not work well with low powered solid state amps. What a wonderful place you live in, Art! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 217 Registered: Jun-05 | thanks art. whenever you get the time. i'm wondering if its a power issue with the dynes? with the 40w pl2 i usually listen at 75, occasionally 85db nearfield. this is 8 and 9 o'clock on the dial respectivley. i'd be surprised if having 75 tube watts would be of any benefit for my tastes? how far you having to turn the dial on your pl2? cheers b |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 229 Registered: Jun-05 | got to listen to the studio 110 and response 1sc yesterday. cd player was an audia, pre a levinson and monoblocks were levinson 33h's. really liked them both. room was too big to judge bass response, and they were very far out into the room, but i suspect there published figures are for at least -6db. none the less i was not interested in extention as i was listning to them with a sub in mind. biggest impression was that they were extremely clean. well, the sound was. the speakers were as if they were not there at all. female vocals and acoustic guitar was very very impressive. detailed and very fast sounding. imaging very sharp. the 1sc was better, but not more enjoyable i wouldnt say. though its hard to take the 110s better bass extention out of the equation. i thought the low bass from the 1sc in that room was non existant, but as i said it is a non issue for me. before leaving the dealer insisted on putting on one of his disks that had a solo performance by an upright-bass. he cranked it up quite conciderably and i beheld the most impressive audio demonstration of my short audiophile life. there was a completely believable lifesize bass being played about 8 feet behing the speaker plane. exquisite detail, controll and speed. how much of that is down to the $20K monoblocks i dont know. really impressive from a tiny box with a funny transparent 5" driver. the 110's also impressed me. i'm not about to jump ship, but in a year or two if feel like something diffent i might bring some proacs home for an overnight stay and see how they hold up against the dynes. might be that theyre a better match for tubes i dont now? would love a bit of that pace in my system, but then maybe i traded that out when i said goodby to s/s? looking forward to your findings art. cheers b |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2830 Registered: Dec-04 | Yeah, Bvan, you traded a bunch away when you bid adios to ss. The ability to run a bunch of speakers with varying impedences and various configurations. The ability to run cheaper speakers with varying specs and delivery. However, look at where you are now. Stable speakers are more expensive, but more accurate and consistant. Your amp will deliver, every day at a consistant level. There must be a price to pay for every choice, your return would seem to be quality and consistancy. Again, the benefit of consistancy is a great feature. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3340 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm sorry Bvan that it is taking so long to post findings but I'm working to get the system where I want it. I may have to abandon the tubes....god forbid. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 230 Registered: Jun-05 | no problem art. sounds like youre having an interesting time with the new speakers. b |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1412 Registered: Sep-04 | Art, why? The ProAcs are easy to drive and you love the presentation, which is a combination of your amp and speakers after all. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3342 Registered: Feb-05 | Not sure Frank. There are some nasties that are inexplicable to me. We are working on it. We don't believe tubes to be the problem per se but perhaps this particular amp. Will bring home a Sim i-3 or Nait 5i (Teri recommends the Sim based on my preferences) today to audition. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1414 Registered: Sep-04 | Nasties? Oh dear, doesn't sound good. I hope it works out. I've heard good things about the Sim and I think the Nait is a very good amp. I am concerned you're thinking of changing the PL though, since I know you really liked it when you bought it. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3343 Registered: Feb-05 | The PL worked very well with my Paradigms but the ProAcs are in another league. I will have both the PL and the other amp for a week to audition. That should provide me with some useful information. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 233 Registered: Jun-05 | just came upon this quote, to do with the response 1sc: " In short, the ProAc Response 1SC is the speaker LS35/A owners crave without knowing it. Want to be convinced? Try the ProAcs with the PrimaLuna Prologue valve amplifier rated at 35 watts per channel. Let me know what you think." Peter Familari Sound and Vision editor Herald Sun Australia |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3344 Registered: Feb-05 | Sounds like they are talking about the PL1 which has been suggested as well. The PL2 seems to work well with my speakers at the shop but just aren't getting it here at home. Since there is nothing I can change about the listening space....well you get the logical progression here. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1345 Registered: May-05 | Art - Do you know McIntosh recently came out with a lower level integrated? I think it's the MA 6300. I noticed it on Harveyonline.com. They have it listed for $3000, but if you've got a good relationship with a Mac dealer (I'm asuming you do), you probably could get it for less. Just a thought... |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 234 Registered: Jun-05 | sorry to hear its not working as hoped. what you finding is missing? any chance of moving up to the 1sc's? did you ever demo them? cheers b |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3345 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Stu,too much money for the Mac and the 1sc doesn't have low end extension I need. I'm auditioning the Sim as we speak. It's ok but nothin' to write home about. Certainly doesn't have the organic sound of the PL. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2851 Registered: Dec-04 | Rats! Good luck with the research, Art! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 237 Registered: Jun-05 | arnt you going to use a sub with it art? say, did you, or anyone else here, get to compare the 130 to the 140's? i've just seen that they have the same bass extention on paper and am wondering what their diferences are? i would have thought there was little benefit in using extra drivers unless you were wanting more bass extention. maybe you get less distortion as they are each not working as hard, but there must be a downside to the more elaborate crossover? the 140 is more sensitive(91) but i wonder if the two-way 130(88.5) might be better match for tubes? b |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3351 Registered: Feb-05 | Problems solved...more later....sounds FABULOUS!!! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 238 Registered: Jun-05 | Ahrrrrrrr! i hate suspense. I've been reading around with an eye to possible new speakers myself(well, i have new speakers as it is) cause theres a chance i might not be able to get my dynaudios shipped down under when i leave europe (at least i can sell them for no loss). some lesser-knowns have caught my fancy which i think might go well with the pl2: osborn interludes, zu tones, green mountain europas. ? b |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3353 Registered: Feb-05 | Bvan, if you are curious about the ProAc/PL2 synergy, it is remarkable! |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 239 Registered: Jun-05 | i'm glad to hear it! i though you might have ditched the pl2. i'm more curious about what changed though? cables? or had you wired them out of phase or something  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3354 Registered: Feb-05 | I had a ground loop with the PL2 and the cable. I really wasn't aware of what created the issue. I just used a 3/2 cheater with the PL2 and went on about my business. That was the problem the combination of the cheater and a number of other factors conspired to make a bright and intolerable sound. I hadn't noticed with the Paradigm's because they didn't have the high end extension and clarity to reveal the problem. I isolated the ground loop, removed the cheater and voila...gorgeous sound. Wish it were that simple but it was quite the process. I'm just glad to be back to listening to music and more gloriously than ever. Over the past several days I've auditioned so many pieces of gear both at home and at the shop that I feel like I know most everything in the price range. BTW the Sim sounded ok but the build quality was apalling. Their better gear is built like a tank that's why I was so surprised the i-3 integrated is so poorly built. The Naim is outstanding (ofcourse) but to my taste didn't match the PL1 or the PL2. Wan't to try something different...put EL34's in your PL2....WOW! It doesn't sound anything like the PL1. It retains much of the detail and punch of the PL2 while adding a layer of texture and timbre that is more like the PL1. I ordered some Mullards for a little tube rolling. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2858 Registered: Dec-04 | very good then, Art! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1359 Registered: May-05 | As Hannibal from the A-Team used to say "I love it when a plan comes together." |
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Bronze Member Username: RushwjKnoxville, TN USA Post Number: 39 Registered: Feb-05 | Art, what was lacking in the paradigm S2? you mentioned all else (including them from your original post) were distantly behind your top two. just curious. thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3358 Registered: Feb-05 | Indeed Stu, thanks for checking in Nuck. William, the S2's are a wonderful speaker but as it turned out just a bit above my budget. If it weren't it would still have come out near the bottom. Especially compared to similarly priced products from ProAc, Totem and Dynaudio. As much as I like the S2 I would have chosen the ProAc that I bought over it even if they were priced the same. The ProAc has a much more natural and organic way with music in my opinion. With the S2 I get the feeling that I am listening to a slick facsimile of music and not the real thing. The S2's image like crazy but so too do the ProAcs and to my liking with a more natural way with timbre. Well lunch is over. Gotta go! |
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Bronze Member Username: RushwjKnoxville, TN USA Post Number: 40 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks for replying Art. I've only heard the S2 once before, and it was before i bought my current studio 20s. I'll have to keep all this in mind when my next upgrade comes along (probably about 1-2 years). |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1443 Registered: Sep-04 | Glad to hear the issue is resolved, and glad to hear you had good experiences with the Naim and Sim although the build quality is of concern. Not surprised you like the EL34s - my favourite tube other than the 911. I've heard 300Bs, and 6550s but I always find that EL34s have some ingredient which connects more. Have fun! Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3378 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: 95bcwhPost Number: 17 Registered: May-05 | Is there a ProAc dealer in Houston, TX? I tried to find it on ProAc website, but the link is not working. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3442 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't know about houston but there is a good one in Austin. http://www.soundmindaudio.com/austin_staff.html If that's npt close enough call Richard at Modern Audio, the distributor, and he'll set you up. http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com/locator_region.php?id=U.S.A. Good luck. |
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