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New member Username: JonnysheffMenlo Park, CA USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | I'm a vinyl newbie and need some help pinpointing the next step to take in upgrading/troubleshooting my system. I recently got my hands on a Pro-ject Debut III and absolutely love it. Thanks to the tips in another post, I found a nice carbon fiber brush and have since noticed a large decrease in background noise and static during playback. The problem that I notice is that the overall sound seems a bit crispy (other adjectives that come to mind are: dry, forward, raspy...lacking warmth). Otherwise, things are superb. Which weak link in a setup leads to such symptoms? I'm running the Debut III with stock Ortofon OMB 5E cartridge and pushing it through a budget preamp (TC-750 from phonopreamps.com). Amplification is handled by a Yamaha 5840 receiver with processing turned off ("direct stereo"). Speakers are B&W DM601 S3. Records have been cleaned using Discwasher (wet) and aforementioned carbon brush. I'm assuming that the root could be any combination of: -crap cartridge -crap preamp (i have my eye on the Bellari...comments?) -vibration/acoustic interference affecting table -cables -table setup (alignment, weights, etc) Intuition suggests that a desire for increased warmth in playback warrants moving to a tube preamp like the Bellari. But I would hate to blow $250 while ignoring another possible problem, so comment away. Thanks! |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 70 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi John, I don't have any answers, but I have good intentions :-) Trying to be practical is there anyway you can get a Bellari on loan from your local friendly neighbourhood hifi dealer? Or 2nd best go listen to Bellari with a Debut III/OMB5E. That way you could start to solve the problem by a process of elimination. I am assuming the cartridge in the Project came pre-aligned from the factory? So hopefully alignment is not an issue. In terms of tracking weight, is the counterweight calibrated? If so rebalance to zero and dial in the correct setting for your Ortofon. Else buying a basic VTF guage is cheap enough. Use the nominal settings from Orotfon, this can be googled from Ortofon's web-site, since they always stipulate the VTF in the specifications. I am assuming the deck has not suffered from any form of trauma? I also assume that you are happy with the sound from you Yamaha/B&W combo using a CD source? In situations like these when people turn to a forum, myself included, often the real answer is the lack of a knowledgeable and helpful dealer, who can help us hear for ourselves and find the right answers. I tend to follow your intuition regarding a tube phono stage for more warmth, but also agree you don't want to make an expensive mistake. cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1377 Registered: Sep-04 | John, First of all, how old is this combination and are you sure you have run it in? The combination needs at least 2 weeks of constant playing just to settle down. The turntable's bearing needs to wear in and the cartridge needs to loosen up. Most cheap cartridges such as yours will sound quite bright and a bit harsh until they're run in. That said, if it is run in, it may be possible alleviate the problems you're experiencing. You won't get rid of them completely because you have a fairly basic turntable combination, but you can modify it a bit. You can make the cartridge sound a bit warmer or cooler by changing its vertical tracking angle. I always forget which way around it is, but if the cartridge is either higher at the back or lower at the back, the sound it produces changes to brighter or warmer. It's not unknown for turntables not to be setup absolutely correctly, so this would be one place to look. Change the height of the arm and observe the effects. Obviously you can't be too far from the norm, but anything up to 15 degrees off horizontal is acceptable. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1298 Registered: May-05 | Everything that has been said previously has been very good advise, and I'd just like to add a few comments... I haven't heard the phono preamp your using. This could be the cause of your issues. I've heard very good and bad things about the Bellari. On the bad side, I've heard reliability issues, inconsistant quality quality in the tubes, noise issues, etc. Most who have complained said that it sounded good when it worked right and/or when the tubes were replaced. Some went through a few units before they got the 'right one.' Not that this is a huge problem, but it's been said a few times. Also, it may seem like the 'tube sound' may be the answer to your problems, but in practice it may not. When pairing up components that have different charecteristics, sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and sometimes you get the worst. The only way to find out is to try it. Some places will let you return items if they don't work out. The Ortofon cartridge is a good cartridge. Don't hold me to this, but I think it's the same cartridge (body and internal workings wise) as the rest of the OM series carts. The difference between them is the stylus (aka diamond or needle). The better ones up the chain use a better stylus and thus perform better. The difference is night and day. In the OM series, you can interchange the stylus without changing the rest of the cartridge, saving you money. If the OM5 is able to do this, that may be a way to go. Your best bet is to consult your dealer. If unavailable or you want another opinion, call Music Direct and ask for Roger. I've bought a bunch of records from them and have asked a million questions. He knows this stuff inside and out. Over the phone, he'd be able to answer questions better than we could on a forum. They sell everything phono - tables (including the Pro-Ject line), cartridges, pre-amps, LPs, and so on. They also sell the Bellari pre-amp and I'm pretty sure they have a good return policy, although I haven't had to use it. http://www.amusicdirect.com/Default.asp? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8461 Registered: May-04 | Everything from where the phono signal leaves the tonearm leads is part of the problem, and, in total, combine to make the situation worse. The OM-5 is hardly what anyone would consider "raspy". Adjectives do litle service to what you actually hear, but the Ortofon cartidges are for the most part rather soft on top and as clean as the budget will allow. Though you do have the most budget oriented model of the Otofon line up. The signal leaving the phono leads could be improved, but I would address other issues before dealing with the cartidge/stylus. A budget phono section, however, is more likely to be IC based and most phono IC's are notorious for less than stellar sound. I think if the question had been put forth without any inclusion of the turntable, the answer would have come back that the Yamaha and the B&W's are not going to present "un-raspy" two channels sound. The B&W's are doing what they were built to do and are showing you faults in what is in front of them. More later. |
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New member Username: JonnysheffMenlo Park, CA USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for all the tips, I'm always impressed at how people stay on top of this forum. I bought the table with 4-5 months of light use on it (local purchase, well cared-for, from original owner), so I would presume that the break-in period is over. I've personally put maybe 4 hours on it so far and have observed no changes in behavior. I'm not familiar with the Yamaha's track record with respect to soundstage dynamics for hi fidelity listening, I received it as a christmas gift from my folks (originally intended for home theater duty). The sound from amp+speakers is excellent when running CD or even FM radio. Again, I do support the notion that the cheap IC-based phono stage is a likely weak link. The B&W's are great, but as Jan points out, they don't put lipstick on an ugly prom date. Poor analogies aside, I will try to pay a visit to a locally renowned vinyl shop in San Jose this weekend and hopefully test drive a Bellari or comparable option. Should I consider taking the table along for a professional alignment? I know the tonearm counterweight setting is correct, but aside from the simple protractor test for azimuth (I think), I can't be sure everything else is kosher. The only topic that hasn't been brought up yet is the vibration aspect. Is there any way that a given set of vibrational dynamics could lead to dry sound and lacking low end? Simple superposition principle physics says a given set of interacting waves can interfere with amplifying or dampening effects (ie constructive or destructive interference) to the overall output product. Any thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8481 Registered: May-04 | Most obviously any signal introduced into the loop between a vibrating stylus tip and the object/force which makes it vibrate will result in a degradation of sound quality. This is particularly true of any non-suspended turntable. Dynamics and bass response will be affected by proper, or improper, location since these are a result of stylus motion relative to the fixed coils of the cartridge and the moving record groove. You could take the table to the shop to check for alignment but you could end up worse than you began if the person there doesn't do a good job of checking or aligning the cartidge. Better to get a good alignment gauge yourself and do the job properly. There is a free two point alignment protractor available from one of the threads on this portion of the forum. Get the PDF file, print it out and follow the instructions on how to set up the cartridge. Also; http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html If you should take the table to the shop, make certain you either remove the platter from the main spindle or jam a few stops under the platter to minimize damage to the main bearing. http://hometheater.about.com/cs/turntables/a/aaturntablespin.htm?nl=1 http://www.turntablebasics.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2622 Registered: Dec-04 | Jon, I was the ugly prom date! Have you tried other inputs to the Yamha? Which input are you using and have you tried another? |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 62 Registered: Apr-05 | Jonathan, Is the sound you are getting from your system dramatically "crispy...dry, forward, raspy...lacking warmth", or are those qualities more subtle, on the level of a personal sound quality preference? If they are very dramatic, it is possible that your cartridge is wired with the polarity reversed in one channel. If this is the case, you should try reversing the +/- wiring in one channel of the cartridge. If you don't feel comfortable tinkering with the cartridge wiring, a simple alternative test would be to reverse the +/- wiring in one channel of your speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8502 Registered: May-04 | I don't mean to be rude, but why would you think an out of phase signal would produce a sound that was "crispy...dry, forward, raspy...lacking warmth"? These are not indications of polarity problems. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 63 Registered: Apr-05 | Jan, Mainly just trying to rule out one of the common issues with a phono source that may not be obvious to a vinyl newbie. The test is simple, takes little time, and costs nothing. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 64 Registered: Apr-05 | Sorry pressed the post button too soon. To me, "lacking warmth" and "lacking low end" might possibly indicate an out of phase condition. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8510 Registered: May-04 | Then I suggest you explain the "test" and tell J.S. what to listen for when he changes polarity. |
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Bronze Member Username: MusicluvrPost Number: 65 Registered: Apr-05 | Will do, Jan. Jonathan, if you are not familiar with the sound of your speakers wired "out of phase", take the following steps. With your system off, reverse the +/- connections on ONE of your speakers. Next, set your system to the CD or FM source, then turn the system on and listen. This will demonstrate how your system sounds when the speakers are out of phase. Usually, the sound of speakers wired out of phase is sonically obvious, but in case you have trouble discerning the difference in the sound, it may help to position the speakers so that they are pointed directly at one another. The most noticeable aspect of the sound is that the bass will almost dissapear. The sound is usually described as "thin" or as you mentioned, lacking warmth and bass. Mid and higher frequencies may sound anywhere from almost normal, to airy and dispersed in direction. If this out of phase effect is similar to what you were hearing from the phono source, you may be onto something. If that is the case, without making any further changes to the speaker connections, switch to the phono source and listen. If the sound from the phono has filled in with stronger bass and a stable soundstage, it is almost certain that your cartridge is wired incorrectly with reversed polarity. The fix is to swap the +/- leads in ONE channel on the cartridge. Now, if you feel bold, or if you're already familiar with what I've been talking about, here's a shortcut. You could skip everything above and just swap the +/- leads on ONE channel of the cartridge and see how that sounds. Good Luck. Oh, and don't forget to restore the wiring to your speakers to the original polarity. |
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New member Username: JonnysheffMenlo Park, CA USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks again guys. Lots of great tips for the uninitiated. I had a bad crash during a cycling race this past weekend and have since had a lot more time to think about audiophile topics with the aid of Rx painkillers ;-) Tanaka, thanks for the tip about polarity. I appreciate you starting from the basics to ensure that I didn't miss anything. I should have noted that the sound quality is only lacking at a personal level and is not so egregious as to suggest an electrical miswiring of sorts. I doubt the casual iTunes listener could discern anything but greatness from the Debut setup. I'm just wanting to squeeze the most potential out of my situation as possible. Last night I worked the protractor a bit to align the cartridge. As it turns out, the 'factory' alignment was not quite as aligned as the Pro-Ject manual suggested. I had spot checked the alignment after purchase, but perhaps a bit too hastily. Long story short, it was off by maybe a half degree. Now the sound is certainly improved, but more in the way of clarity than warmth. I'm still kind of in the dark about determining if the VTA is off without a microscope. It is easily adjustable on the Debut III, but eyeballing it seems impossible. I'm looking into building up an isolation stand of some type, maybe using some Vibrapod feet and maple or mdf board. I'll check some other threads for info, but feel free to offer suggestions. Any other dependable phono preamps out there that might be a significant improvement over my no-namer? Something under $300 would be great. I've heard positive things about NAD. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 77 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Jonathon, in terms of phono stages, I like the Cambridge Audio 640P. I don't know what this costs in CA, but in the UK it is 60GBP, and in my new home it costs $250AUD. I have personally listened to the 640P, with a Rega P3 (Goldring G1042 cart), at a local dealer. I liked what I heard, plenty of life to the sound, and good bass too. I would expect it to sell for a very reasonable price in the US. This stage is solid state based, but it is much better than the NAD PP2, (sounds a bit closed in to me). Here's a link to a review so you can see the product: http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2005/cambridge_640p.shtml Best of luck, enjoy the music Rav |
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New member Username: JonnysheffMenlo Park, CA USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-06 | Rav, Thanks for the recommendation. The Cambridge looks pretty awesome. I would not have thought to look into that brand with my limited exposure to phono gear. With a quick Froogle search, I found the 640P for $170 USD shipped, which is easily in range. I'll just wait for some naysayers to share any negative experiences before pursuing it any further. Also, the Cambridge is within $30 of the best price I've seen on a Bellari phono stage (around $200). Early comments on this thread alluded to less than stellar reliability in isolated cases. Anyone want to weigh in on the two placed head to head? I only hope this will not degrade to a battle between tube heads and solid state fans. Again, still trying to get down to the Analog Room (I think) in San Jose for live demos. This is very entertaining and informative in the interim. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 78 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Jonathan, no worries, you're most welcome, you seem to be doing things in a very tidy fashion so far. I cannot comment on the Bellari, have not heard it, but I'd be happy to live with the 640P for most moving magnet cartridges I think. cheers Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1303 Registered: May-05 | Jon, I haven't heard the Bellari either, just reported what I've seen a few times from different people. I also haven't heard the Cambridge, but have heard a lot of good things about it. I own the NAD PP2 and am using it as a temporary fix until I decide which direction I'm going. It's good for the money, but isn't anything stellar either. I agree with Ravinder in that it sounds a bit closed in. It also sounds somewhat flat and dull. On the positive side, it sounds natural. It doesn't try to do things it shouldn't be trying to do. In comparison, the Pro-Ject Phono Box (same price) is more dynamic and extended, but sounds a little ragged and rough around the edges. Pick your poison here. At around $300, their are some very good phono stages. I'd look into the Pro-Ject Phono Box SE, Creek, and Rega. The Rega Fono comes in either a MM or MC version (they're not both), and I think the MM version may be slightly above $300, but not much. They all sound different, and the best one depends on what you listen for. I think you've got a good price in mind. If you're willing to spend more on the phono stage, I'd say to upgrade other things first or very shortly afterward, such as the cartridge or amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8527 Registered: May-04 | VTA does not require a microscope. Nor does azimuth which might be a set up that will aid your system. VTA is a constantly changing "set up" which varies not only with the cartridge you use but with each record you play. The most neurotic of vinyl users reset VTA with each LP and mark the position on the album cover. Most of us, however, get the VTA set for the widest proportion of our alubums and let it go at that. The 20° stylus rake angle is generally accepted as the industry standard, but even it varies ocassionally. The best advice is to buy a string level (a small level hung on a string to be used in establishing long distances) and get the arm to what you assume is level. Make whatever concesions are needed for the flare of the tonearm body and go from there. Adjust the arm up and down and listen for what you hear. In general the higher the rear of the arm, the lighter the bass and the brighter the sound. The opposite is true of lowering the arm. The sound stage will expand and contract with the height of the arm and the SRA of the cartridge. Find what sounds best to your ears and go from there with that point as a reference level. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html |
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New member Username: JonnysheffMenlo Park, CA USA Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | I think I was confusing VTA and azimuth there for a bit. Some things I have read on azimuth adjustment suggest a mirror and/or magnifying glass, which is where I was going with the microscope extrapolation. Is it possible to work with azimuth without these tools? Really good eyesight perhaps? As for VTA, does anyone know if the Debut III has VTA adjustment? The manual makes no mention, and I cannot locate a set screw near the pillar as explained in Jan's links from above (which are great). Not that it's critical, just one more knob to twiddle I suppose. Ever since I readjusted the cartridge tangency last weekend, I have noticed definite improvement. I found a few albums at Vinyl Solution in San Mateo that are quickly becoming my reference guides. For one, Talk Talk's "The Colour of Spring" sounds outstanding all the way around. It really shows full range strength coming through (finally). I will start going back through my collection to compare notes with old listenings and see if the improvements hold up. |
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Bronze Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 86 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Jon, good work. BTW I like this album also, but it's back at my folks place (somewhere in the attic...) on the other side of the planet (UK). Being a keen cyclist, seems to be giving you the mechanical skills needed to get into the turntable world! I am trying to build a bike (MTB) at the moment, I have a very light Felt frame, but it once belonged to an elite racer, so it has a few scratches here and there (good enough for me though). Slowly collecting the rest of the bits I need to get me moving again. 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad...... Rav |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8551 Registered: May-04 | Your tonearm must allow azimuth adjustment before you can reasonably try to make any corrections. For the most part, one piece (non-removable headshell type) tonearms with today's high quality ball and race bearings seldom require any adjustment. Uni-pivots, on the other hand, will need some azimuth tweaking. You can use a mono recording or a stereo recording of a human voice performing solo to set azimuth by connecting the cartridge out of phase and listen for the strongest null as you adjust azimuth. I can't answer your question regarding VTA on your arm. It's a safe bet it doesn't have any adjustment, if you can't find it mentioned. Why not call the dealer where you purchased the table? |
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New member Username: JonnysheffMenlo Park, CA USA Post Number: 9 Registered: Mar-06 | After putting it off for a long time, I finally ponied up and bought a new Bellari VP129 preamp. It is awesome! There was an immediate improvement in warmth, soundstage and general balance in the system, and that is all before I have run the preamp in fully. To anyone that owns a Bellari, what do you do when not using your system? I only ask because there appears to be a lack of an on/off switch. While I usually just left my crappy IC preamp on all the time, I doubt this is the right method for tube components. However, it feels silly to have to pull the power cable out of the back of the Bellari to power down after a session. Did I miss something, or are you supposed to just leave it on? That would seem to limit the tube's life. I guess the obvious solution would be to just run a power strip with an on/off switch to the table/preamp. |