Paper Speakers
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 12 Registered: May-06 | Has technology overtaken older, paper speakers? I have a pair of 27yr old speakers that I have always loved. Now that I FINALLY own my first quality receiver, I love them 10x more. Late last night during a two-way-wine-induced phone conversation with my brother, he tried to convince me that it was time for an upgrade, due to the fact that technology had passed us by. Yes, he owns the same speakers, but like myself in the past, is running them through a Sony. His main point was that the materials used to make the cones - Kevlar, space-age tin, etc., have made our cardboard/paper speakers obsolete. I've also had friends say to me "but they're so old". Of course, I realize now that I was playing them thru "shitey" receivers. My new HK is producing sound that none of my previous low-budget receivers came ANYWHERE CLOSE to providing. Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of replacing them, in fact, I'm happier with them now than I was when I received them for my 13th birthday. For the sake of argument, is old necesarily bad when it comes to those big boxes that make our little ears feel sooooooo good? And what are your opinions concerning paper vs. Kevlar, etc.? Does anyone else listen to their music on speakers that are over a quarter of a century old?............Oh, God. I'm old. p.s. Listening to "Selling England By The Pound", and its like hearing it for the first time! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3225 Registered: Feb-05 | There a many new materials used to make speaker cones yet some of the worlds's foremost speaker manufacturers are still making speaker cones out of paper. I think that it is wonderful that you are enjoying them. There are a whole bunch of folks with kevlar woofers who can't wait to get their hands on the next upgrade or new space age speaker cone and getting little or any joy from their MUSIC, and that is what it's all about isn't it. Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 909 Registered: Dec-03 | The special papers used in speaker cones are stiff and light and exhibit relatively low levels of break-up problems and ringing. It is still an excellent choice for cone material. Next time your brother points out the "obsolete" technology of your speakers remind him that the basic technology of the moving audio coil transducer hasn't changed in 130 years. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2396 Registered: Dec-04 | There may be a lot of reasons for moving on into the 80's, speaker-wise. Polypropylene is a suitable material, and superior to paper in a lot of ways. Formost is uv resistance, since a lot of these were sitting in the package shelf of cars. The investment in injection moulding made the jump to home speakers a cost necessity. Longevity and the necessity of rubber surrounds used with paper(for flexibility) is another, foam does nicely with plastic drivers, as less excursion is a (benefit?) of plastic drivers. As for paper, they sound pretty darn good after 27 years, don't they? I am not encouraging paper as the best material for mids or tweets, far from it. A good solid paper bass driver can beat a plastic or exotic piece quite easily, particularly, IMHO, when sizes go to 12 and 15 inches. May the classics age as well as the owner. What are the speakers, btw,Gman? Surround replacements are avaqilable for most and not too hard to install. |
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Silver Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 910 Registered: Dec-03 | Modern foam surrounds are superior to rubber for woofers. Foam allows more excursion and will not dry out and crack. The prejudice against foam surrounds is left over from an age gone by. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8405 Registered: May-04 | Some of us are listening to speakers older than most of the members on this forum and finding it difficult to justify a change. Go listen to some of the newer speakers. Decide for yourself what you hear. Do not be influenced by anyone else or fooled by an overly "present" design. More speakers than ever are being designed to jump off the shelf and sell their sound in the showroom with explosions, goosed up mids and thumpy bass. These are seldom speakers which endure for decades or are even true to the sound of music. I know your speakers well and would advise you there is better sound out there. Toby made some good speakers for his day, but not great speakers. The bass is loose and "chuffy" and the mids do not reflect what is available today. Also, be aware that many speaker manufacturers in the days of LP's limited their high frequency response to no more than 12-15kHz to avoid excessive surface noise intrusion. Twenty seven years ago, sealed cabinets ruled the market for most serious listeners. Today, with the use of computer plotted TS parameters, good sounding ported boxes are ubiquitous. The Toby Towers were not designed with TS parameters in mind and where a cut and try proposition. The two enclosures types, sealed and ported, do not sound alike and a good ear can almost always tell the difference. Both enclosure techniques have good and bad points to argue, just as do any other alternatives in audio. Audio is, virtually always, a give and take proposition. Speakers have improved in many ways over the last few decades. Mostly in controlling cabinet resonances which blurred the sound. This is a major failing of the Toby designs. However, good, musical speakers of any age are true to the source and can be enjoyed by anyone who knows what music sounds like. (Anyone heard a JBL Paragon lately?) Read the current edition of Stereophile for a review of the now forty year old, paper coned Small Advent Loudspeaker for a good assessment of what a great designer could accomplish in years past and what material developments have brought to the market in that same time. Then I suggest you go familiarize yourself with the sound of music. Attend a few concerts and get an idea what sounds good in music. You should be comparing the sound of your system to the source and not to another piece of equipment. I'll offer you a copy the Emma Demo CD if you are looking for some material for speaker demos, (https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/186180.html). You need to send me a self addressed envelope to mail the CD out. My address is in the Dallas telephone directory. Then I would suggest you give Emma a listen. The speaker is an excellent choice and will, in my opinion, be difficult to beat anyhwere near the price and should out perform your Toby's in ever area. Contact Tim by clicking on his username in the above post. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8406 Registered: May-04 | Since you have a Paradigm center speaker (how'd you decide on that?), you might want to listen to some Paradigms also. They offer very good value for the dollar. |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 13 Registered: May-06 | Very nice to read all your comments. I'll have to forward them on to my brother. He actually has a Denon 36xx (not exactly sure which one it is) in his bedroom, and has been debating on whether he should take the time to move it into the main room where he is presently using his Sony ES. He has Tobys in both rooms, but the rubber that makes up the perimeter of the drivers (molding?), on the pair in the bedroom, ripped apart a couple years back (that's what started our conversation-whether he should simply have them repaired for $120 or purchase new speakers). As a result, the Denon has been silent for some time now. At the least, I think I can convince him to switch out those two receivers. He's always said the Denon sounded better for music, but lacked some of bells and whistles that the Sony provided for HT, and has recently realized his dissatisfaction with its SQ. Denon seems to have a much better reputation around here. Anyway, to answer your question Jan, a few years ago I was shopping for a Center on a $300 budget. I found the Paradigm at Hillcrest Audio for just that amount. Before I purchased it, I came home and called Toby. Mr. Toby happened to answer the phone. He informed me that his centers started at, if memory is correct, around $500. Whatever it was, it was too much. I then told him about my consideration of the Paradigm and he said that they made very good speakers. That was all I needed to know. I'm going to take you up on that Emma cd. I'll just need to pick-up an appropriate cd envelope. I really appreciate your generosity. And believe me, I have no illusions about there not being better speakers than my $300 T's out there , but since I'm finally feeding them with there best input, I think I owe it to them to let them sing for a few more years. For those who might be interested in seeing what 27 year old speakers look like, I've enclosed a picture of some used Tobys from the site- http://www.Toby.com Mine don't have that curly veneer, they're finished in pure particle board, otherwise, they appear to be identical in design.  Enjoy the rest of the weekend. As for myself, I'm not leaving the house. If ya wanna come in, ya better knock hard! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2406 Registered: Dec-04 | Again, there is nothing wrong with the sprekers you have, Gman. If you want to reach out a little, Jan has pointed one direction to look to keep the kind of sound you may be looking for. Look further into the Paradigms, and yo might find small speakers with big sound to match your center. Do keep us apprised! |
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Bronze Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 36 Registered: Apr-06 | 4x6 inch woofer? |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 15 Registered: May-06 | 6x9 |
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Bronze Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 37 Registered: Apr-06 | hmmmm i didnt think they used thows for home audio but now i no :D Power handling? |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 16 Registered: May-06 | I really have no idea. Whatever paperwork I had is long gone, remember, I was 13 I got them. I do hope they handle a little more since I'm returning the HK 335 (though a friend has expressed interest in buying it from me) for the HK 635. Last week, I paid $295 for the 335 via auction thru Harman Audio, but today I bid on and won on a 635 for $456. I hope I made the right decision. It just seemed to be too good a deal. Yes, before bidding I did check with HK to make sure their was no problem returning it. The excitement continues! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2453 Registered: Dec-04 | Uhh, Gman, woofers are round for a reason. |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 17 Registered: May-06 | One of the pairs of Tobys my brother owns are a later model (I'm guessing between five and eight yrs) and have a round woofer, otherwise they appear identical. I always found them to be too basey and lacking in the mids and highs compared to the 6x9s. About twelve years ago or so one of my tweeters went out, so I called Mr. Toby and he told me to bring them in for a check-up. Turns out it was simply a fuse that limits the input to the tweeter (I had checked it but evidently replaced it with another faulty one). I believe this was exactly what Jan was talking about in reference to LPs. Anyway, he put them in front of some gizmo that directed a signal toward the speaker and then took a reading (I'm sure you guys know what this thing is called), he then told me the gizmo was getting a better response from my old Tobys than the round ones he was producing at that time. Maybe he was just stroking me, but I don't think so. I think he charged me $2 for the fuse and I left smiling. Again, I know there's better out there, but $300 and twenty-seven years later............I'm still smiling. Now, where's my 635? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8417 Registered: May-04 | No, I was speaking of limiting frequency extension, not power handling. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1510 Registered: Feb-04 | Speaking generally about 25+ year old speakers, they usually benefit from refreshing the capacitors in the crossovers. They have likely drifted off spec. I did this last year and was very impressed with the improvement on 1978 speakers. I have a pair of 1973 speakers yet to do. |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 172 Registered: Dec-05 | GMan, good buy on the 635. While I paid close to double what you did (in Cdn though) mine was still in service (ie for sale in stores) when I bought it. Who cares what condition it is in if the warrantly is still good, HK service will fix any faults (but better make sure t is). Mine had some issues, but it only cost me time to get it back in 100%. I thought I rememebred reading that the owner was responsible for cost of shipping, but they paid everything there and back. I just love the system, and if anyting proves the "specs don't tell all theory", it does. Or perhaps they just choose not to hide anything in their specs, but it kicks the collective rears of many 100 wpc rated receivers I checked out. Set up is a dream, and I only had to make one minor adjustment to the decible matching the ez-set function made (built-in SPL for the remote). Of course if your that kind of guy, you can use it as a digital SPL meter and do it yourself anyway. |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 34 Registered: May-06 | Peter, that sounds very interesting. Indeed, maybe a tune-up is due. I was already thinking of replacing the posts. They're hardly what I would call posts. I don't know what they are called, you push a little switch on the side of the post and this opens a small whole in which the speaker wire is inserted. They were probably pretty new and niffty back in the day, but I was wondering if some nice, big, gold screw type posts would make that much difference. Thanks for the idea. I'm going to look into the capacitors as well. Thanks also to you Michael. It's nice to hear the positive reinforcement, especially since I'm still waiting for the unit to arrive. Fortunately, it's on the way and should be here in the next few hours. I'm lickin' my chops! |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 174 Registered: Dec-05 | I doubt upgrading to gold binding psts will make much of a difference, making sure the contacts on your current ones are clean, however, will! Take a peak inside that hole and see if there is any oxidization, if there is, give 'em a light scrub with a rough surface to clean them. Two things about gold: One common misconception is that silver is a better conductor, not true, BUT, your hardly getting pure gold (it would be too soft anyway) and the amalgam is no where near the conductivity of the pure product, so silver interconnects or posts are usually more pure (less expensive than gold) so generally commercial products made from higher concentrations of silver than their gold counterparts conduct better. |
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