Bogus RMS claims and "all channels driven"
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3904 Registered: Mar-05 | since Hawk's much-appreciated return to this forum, this has been coming up a lot. This thread includes some links to some Audioholics articles which challenge the "all channels driven" controversy: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=671734 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8336 Registered: May-04 | There's a controversy?! |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3905 Registered: Mar-05 | I haven't read those Audioholics articles yet (not enough caffeine in me yet, heh), but apparently there are people who claim that demanding a receiver or amp to truly produce its claimed RMS on all channels at one time is a highly unrealistic scenario in real-life usage. And it sometimes appears that a great many of those people happen to own Onkyos, LOL. |
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Silver Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 929 Registered: Oct-04 | A receiver which can drive all channels with its rated power will have a better power supply and heat sinks than the one that delivers a third of its rated power with all channels driven. Maybe you will never see that used in "real world" application, but at least to me it constitutes a quality product. I'd also argue the average consumer would agree, how many Onkyos would they sell if they advertised their 33W x 7 continuous wattage? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2314 Registered: Dec-04 | Wile perhaps not all channels (depending on the program and source), it is realistic to imagine someone hauling some gear to a hall for a Stag and Doe(done that). It is also possible that max power could be used in the basement to hear it in the backyard get together(again). It is also possible that some lunker would do it just beceaus he can(when the house is otherwise empty). For these reasons alone, the amp or receiver should be of the ilk to deliver without clipping or overheating. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8342 Registered: May-04 | I guess I'm missing the controversy. If I understand this correctly, saying crap is crap is controversial? Maybe by an Onkyo owner's standards, but none I know of. |
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Silver Member Username: PraetorianCanada Post Number: 156 Registered: Dec-05 | I imagine the controversy is over those that don't meet the RMS with all channels driven... as opposed to the controversy being asking them too. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1340 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmm - although all-channels driven is a way of guaranteeing the minimum amount of power available, it's not a real world description of how the amp will work. After all, it's highly unusual to get a requirement in a movie or surround music mix to drive all the channels hard at once. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: BigpoppaphileSAINT CLOUD, MN United States Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | I think the controversy is over the marketing of these products found mainly at big box stores where you walk down a whole aisle of products and all have the same 100 watts x7 rating. As was stated above, Onkyo, or any other brand would not look so great if they told us the "real" numbers. But on the other hand it seems from my reading in these forums they aren't necessarily guilty of false advertising either since the federal regulations are so old/cryptic on what the power specs actually mean. I'll admit that even after a lot of reading and being a newcomer here I still don't care for any of the power specs. I'd rather be standing in front of the receiver and crank it up at the store and see what it does. I feel myself starting to lose focus here, sorry. I get heated up cuz I fell for the marketing hype for my first stereo and now am looking to replace it after only 3 years. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2351 Registered: Dec-04 | There may be a cross of ideals here. My piece of kit should be able to deliver as stated. If I do not plan to use the piece as stated, then why buy it? Buy something cheaper, and more appropriate to the task. But when you crank it up at the outdoor wedding reception, it blows up. Kief! Buy with your head, pay with your heart, and include all posibilities in mind. Case in point, we had family over for an evening a few weeks ago. While we were playing darts, our little sweetie 3 yr old niece wanted to see what the big black knob was all about, having seen us fiddle with it on and off. She turned the thing full out clockwise. full out, bang! If your gear is not up to snuff, something hopefully shuts down, or gets smoked. Other than a few folks filling their shorts(including little Amy), no harm done, but ringing ears, for sure. That's quality in a nutshell. It may not be everybody's pick, but quality. Buy quality. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8353 Registered: May-04 | "But when you crank it up at the outdoor wedding reception, it blows up." That's what rental PA systems are for. The rental fee is less than the repair bill on your HT receiver. Particularly if you allow small children or drunken brother-in-laws anywhere near the volume control. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2354 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Jan . I was referring to my own stuff. It..don't...blow...up. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8356 Registered: May-04 | Just in case, next time. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3195 Registered: Feb-05 | "Particularly if you allow small children or drunken brother-in-laws anywhere near the volume control." Yep. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2362 Registered: Dec-04 | Good stuff don't blow up. |
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Silver Member Username: GeekboyTampa, FL United States Post Number: 448 Registered: Dec-03 | Nuck wrote: <<good>> It just melts.  (Just lurking) |
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New member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 6 Registered: May-06 | Forums such as this one represent one the greatest aspects of the Internet, especially for newbies like myself. Unfortunately, I discovered this site the day after I ordered my HK-335, factory remanufactured AVR from Harmon Audio. I was replacing a Sony STR-DE 915, which I inherited from my father. The purchase was based solely on mine and my brothers' opinion that HK was a great brand and I found, what I believed to be, a good price (won it on auction for $295). I had never heard an HK. I say "unfortunately" because, while HKs seem to have a good reputation around here, there were some posts that seemed to disagree.....a bit, nothing horrible, but enough to bring on some post-purchase/pre-arrival anxiety. To clarify further, it seems that HK is one of the better mass market products, but is not in that elite circle of Rotel, NAD, Outlaw, etc., at least, not a lowly 335. I was encouraged by some posts which stated that HK was one of the few companies that were honest about their power ratings. So for the next six days I played the waiting game. During that time I scoured the internet in an attempt to lessen my cognitive dissonance. This included comparing, over and over, the Sony manual with the HK manual available online from HK. The Sony manual states- "With 8-ohm load, both channels driven, from 20-20,000Hz, rated 100 watts per channel, minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.09% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output". The HK-"70 Watts per channel, 20Hz-20kHz, @<0.07% THD, both channels driven into 8ohms I'm not going to pretend that I understand what all that means, but to my layman eyes this was not to promising, especially since I was never impressed with the power of the Sony. Those bigger wattage numbers represent more power, and how much of a difference could that 0.02% THD make. But, I kept my faith in what I had read here. I've had my speakers for 27 yrs, and while I've heard the same models THUMP on other systems, I've never had a receiver that did it more mine. The HK arrived yesterday, and after listening to them for five minutes, I realized that this system might get me evicted from my apartment. Unbelievable! 10x the sound. It's the THUMP I've been seeking for 27yrs. It should be a crime that two units can be described in such a similar manner, yet sound so different. Then again, maybe it's all right there and I just don't know what to look for..............naggghhh! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1253 Registered: May-05 | H/K is notoriously very conservative with their power ratings. Generally, they test higher than spec when reviewed by an independant source. I wouldn't regret or second guess the decision you made. Their is always going to be better out their. For the money, you could have gotten significantly less. |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 11 Registered: May-06 | Thanks for the reinforcement Stu. Believe me, no regrets here, as long as, remanufatured means good for a long, long time. Of course, upgrading to my next, bigger and better HK is something I'm already looking forward to. |
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Silver Member Username: GdawgCanada Post Number: 122 Registered: Dec-03 | GmanChefboy, It only took me 3 months and I went from an Elite 43TX to a 59txi. Heres a site you guys will all like: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: GmanchefboyDallas, TX Post Number: 37 Registered: May-06 | I gottcha beat DawG. About 10 days. I exchanged it for a 635. Couldn't pass on the deal. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2659 Registered: Dec-04 | When the H/K is used up or time to move on, the natural step from there is Rotel. Lemme know when y'all want a power amp. H/K is cheap,quality power, better than Nad in receivers. Booyah! |
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