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Bronze Member Username: Cm73Post Number: 17 Registered: May-05 | Hi, been out to listen to the paradigm monitor 7's about 899 CDN. I've been suggested to check out Ascend CMT-340SEs. similar price, just not available via a local dealer here. Can anyone offer a suggestion if 1 is better than the other. I took a similar chance with my HSU VTF2 from the reviews/recommendations here and it was the best move yet. My budget is about 1K, basement room about 15x2 listening to 50/50 HT/Music. Lastly i run a Marantz sr5500. If anything i was dejected by the sales rep for the paradigms, he made it sound like the internets for kids who only keep their speakers set on small. Whatever I say. SOOOO looking for a push to either try blind or find another dealer. is there another variable i should be looking at? thanks in advance |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 961 Registered: Feb-05 | there have been reviews that state that the ascends barely edge out the esprit, which is a line below the monitor, but there are members that will place them with the studios. It is all personal preference. I myself think that the monitor 7 is a FINE speaker for the price, but that is here in the US, you could possibly do better in canada, or come here if you are close to the border to get them. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1186 Registered: May-05 | I wouldn't cross the border to get them. It'll void the warantee. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 963 Registered: Feb-05 | it will? thanks for bringing that up stu... I was not aware of that. can you fill me in as to why that is? does it have to do with the exchange rate? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3085 Registered: Feb-05 | Heard the Ascends and weren't all that impressed with them. They sounded a bit dry to me, but overall they aren't bad. There are so many good sepakers out there I suggest you go out and give the PSB Image T55's a listen. I'm a big Paradigm fan but the T55's blow the Monitor 7's away. Have you listened to Energy, Focal and on and on. Go out and hit the stores. Good shopping to you. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3839 Registered: Mar-05 | The Ascends are neck and neck with the Paradigm Studio series from what I've read on discussion boards like this... I haven't heard the Studio but did hear the Monitor series and definitely preferred the Ascends (the Monitor 5 was the best of that model line). LOL don't pay attention to the Paradigm sales rep, he's just looking after his next paycheck, as sales reps of all stripes usually do. If the guy has any integrity at all he'll allow you to bring in a pair of Internet-direct speakers to directly AB against his Paradigms...my local Paradigm dealer here pulled the same horsesh*t spiel about I-D sales, but chickened out quick when I asked him to let me do that---he asked me WHICH I-D speakers and when I said "Ascends" he pulled out the 'ole "well it would really mess up our setup to let you do that." ROTFL! Go to the AVS Forum and do a search for "Funny Ascend story" for someone who did just that, went on a months-long speaker shopping odyssey. He finally went for some Boston VR-3s but you may be surprised at his experience with a slew of big-name store speakers including the Paradigm Studios. But hey, it's just a story like any of ours. The only way to really make your decision is to bring the speakers into the stores that have the balls to allow you to AB. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3087 Registered: Feb-05 | As Gavin said, one reviewer put Ascends neck and neck with Paradigm Esprit's which is in Paradigms low budget Performance series. Though I knew Edster would be here saying what he said above, don't buy it. I own Studio 20 v3's and have listened to them both. Like I said the Ascends aren't bad but they don't even compare to the Studio 20's. The better the electronics the more the Studio 20's separate themselves from the Ascends. There are a whole bunch of speakers out there that are better than the Ascends you just need to go out and shop. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 966 Registered: Feb-05 | I knew eddie would be here as well, so I figured I should put that in just for comparisons sake. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 967 Registered: Feb-05 | here is my suggestion: what is your maximum budget? listen to speakers above it, and then WAY above it, below it, and then WAY below it but make sure they are the same reputable brand if you do this. Speakers from one brand that are exorbanently priced are handily outperformed by $200 speakers. I refuse to name it. some good brands that I myself like are: mirage paradigm energy psb sonus faber usher just to name a few that have speakers in all price ranges. this will give you an idea of if you can actually hear a difference between a $4000 speaker and one that costs much less. Some people really can't. |
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Bronze Member Username: RushwjKnoxville, TN USA Post Number: 31 Registered: Feb-05 | I can't speak about ascends, but i can say that i too am extremely pleased w/ my Paradigm Studio 20's v3. I also agree w/ Art on multiple points in this discussion, but especially about the PSB T55's. I have not heard them in my home but was very impressed w/ their full bodied and smooth sound at the dealer. these were not an option to me at the time of purchase of my paradigms but if they were it would have warrented a great deal more research as i enjoy both speakers very much. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1188 Registered: May-05 | I'm a very happy owner of the T55. I demoed them at home along with the Monitor 7 and B&W 602.5 (I think that was the one). IMO the T55 does everything better than the Monitor 7. Not that the Monitor 7 is a bad speaker by any means. I think the T55 is about $50-$100 more, but more than worth it. The Energys are also very good. They're similar, yet different. I haven't heard the Ascends. They get rave reviews by the people who own them (then again, why wouldn't they?). The Ascends aren't a fair comparison because they're a bookshelf and the rest are towers. The Studio 20's are one of my favorite speakers, but it's not a fair comparison again. If I were able to afford them and an appropriate sub, I might have gone with them. Keep in mind that it'll take a very good sub to do them justice, and they are few and far between IMO. An appropriate sub and stands will probably at least double the price, making the comparison even more unfair. Having said all of that, some people will prefer the Monitor 7 or Energys over the T55. It's all about preference. Most people I know who've spent a lot of time around the speakers in this range prefer the T55. IMO the T55, Monitor 7 and Energy sound similar to one another. If you like one, you'll probably like them all, but one will be better than the rest. If you like these, chances are you won't like the B&W 600 series. Those are just my observations of what people have said. Gavin - Most all electronics companies void the warantee when the product is used in a country other than where it was sold. I'm pretty sure it has to do with electrical power differences, though I haven't heard an exact reason. I don't think it has anything to do with exchange rate. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3842 Registered: Mar-05 | workerbee, This is the thread I was referring to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=591331 Art refers to somebody who put the Ascends on par with Paradigm's lowest Espirt series, and the reviewer in the thread above says that he found the Studio 40s to be the most disappointing of all the speakers he heard. So who to believe? The obvious conclusion here is, don't take ANYBODY'S words for gospel...order a pair of the Ascends and take them in for a direct AB comparison to the Paradigms, Studio or Monitor lines and let your own ears decide. If you find that the Ascends are equal or better, you will have saved yourself several hundred dollars a pair. If not, you lose $20-30 to ship them back...it's a no-brainer. The size/class (but certainly not price, heh) equivalent of the Studio 20s would be the Ascend 170s, and the 340s for the Studio 40s. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3844 Registered: Mar-05 | PS. The Studios like most speakers should have more bass than the CBM-170s and to a lesser extent the CMT-340s too, so figure in the question of whether you'll be using a subwoofer or not. The 340SEs should run fine w/o a sub, the 170s less so. Unfortunately I think there might still be a considerable waiting list for the 340SEs since they massively underestimated demand, you might want to call Ascend and ask. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 968 Registered: Feb-05 | would a logically sane person compare a speaker to one that is over double its price and expect the cheaper one to best it? of course there are exceptions in the non audiophile world such as bose, but come on eddie. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3845 Registered: Mar-05 | 1. For the same reason that many people including myself have chosen the digital Panny over receivers and amps costing several times more. 2. Because Ascend is an Internet-direct company so very low overhead and no middleman's markup, and Paradigm is not. 3. Because the subtle differences that someone like Jan or Art hear might be inaudible or insignificant to others. 4. Need I mention that #1 has been reported many many a time with SVS and Hsu subwoofers compared to retail subwoofers costing double or more? Come on Gavin, you're smarter than that. As William Goldman once put it perfectly: "Nobody knows nuthin'." |
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Bronze Member Username: Cm73Post Number: 18 Registered: May-05 | Hey guys, thanks for your posts, it means alot to me to get this perspective. One thing that did bug me about the paradim dealer, he showed the monitor series, then I asked him about the signature series and if I could hear them. He actually said they were out of my budget of 2K CDN and that he wasn't going to waste my time as with my marantz/hsu that it wouldnt do the speakers justice. That urked me the most. Lucky for me, theres a few dealers around, I must find local the T55's but it will probably be Paradigm or the 55's. thanks again |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3847 Registered: Mar-05 | It sounds like the dealer's either kind of a pr*ck or he's playing games with you---psyching you into either proving him wrong by upping your budget and buying the Signature Series, or he inflates his top end items in order to make his equally inflated mid and low-end models seem more attractive. Incidentally, I just let a local guy come over to listen to my Ascend 340s. He was comparing them to some Studio 20s, 40s, and Axiom M22s and M50s that he'd heard earlier in the weak. Funny enough, he found the Studios to be "dead-sounding" and the Axioms "very bright" with the Ascends falling into the middle. Just another meaningless anecdote there... : ) I will go listen to the Studios myself later in the week, apparently the local Paradigm dealer that I hitherto thought only carried the Monitor series has now added the Signature series. Which means yet another meaningless anecdote on the way soon. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3094 Registered: Feb-05 | The dealer may not be the kindest but he was right that the Marantz/Hsu combo wouldn't be up to making the Sig's sing. That said you should have an opportunity to hear them in a pleasant environment. If he feels that he needs to educate you he should do it in a way that doesn't belittle or condescend. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 969 Registered: Feb-05 | workerbee, the dealer was right. your marantz wouldn't drive the sigs justice. they require seperates to perform their best. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 970 Registered: Feb-05 | and if you think the studios to be dead sounding, go back to your Bose, thats what I would say. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3848 Registered: Mar-05 | http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/StudioSeries/Studio Specs.html interesting. ON PAPER the 20 and 40 don't look like difficult loads... I don't think the local Paradigm dealer has separates so I'll ask to hear them on their highest end AVR...probably a Marantz 8500 or some such. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 974 Registered: Feb-05 | I never said the studios were difficult loads now did I?? Nor did anyone in here... but do they sound better if you drive them with better components, LIKE GOOD SPEAKERS SHOULD? YOU BET! Drive them with a KLH reciever from best-buy, and a Rotel component set and then maybe even you will understand eddie :-) |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 975 Registered: Feb-05 | the s2 is much more revealing eddie, than the studio 20. If your paradigm dealer has it, I would def. take the time to take a listen. Make sure to take the time to compare the differences between seperates and a reciever. They are not a difficult load, but seperates are the way to go with the sig.2s, and they are a monitor, just like the studio 20. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3096 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually the 40's are a fairly difficult load which is one of the reasons I kept the 20's for my tube amp. Listening to Paradigm Reference series speakers with a Marantz AVR certainly won't tell you anything but the weaknesses of the AVR. The Marantz simply ain't up to it. Have fun! It's like listening to the Ascends with a Sony receiver. I certainly would not be doing any critical listening under those circumstances. But that's just me. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 977 Registered: Feb-05 | specs on paper only tell part of the story... I haven't used a reciever to drive anything in quite a while I even use a seperate amp to drive my atoms. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3853 Registered: Mar-05 | I thought we were talking about the Studio 20s, not the S2s. The S2s are even more expensive than the 20s, aren't they? |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 978 Registered: Feb-05 | yes they are, but I was reccomending you hear them. I want you to compare them to the studio 20, as myself and Art have done. They are both monitor speakers, and when driven with good quality electronics, you will get even more out of the S2 than with the studio 20. I apologise for not making that clear, I worded that very badly. The S2 is one of my all-time favorite speakers. I would have a hard time choosing between it and a MartinLogan. Especially given that the S2 starts around $1900 (I believe) new. Yes, it is a lot more than the studio 20, but as I said, I would have a hard time in the right room trying to justify the move up to MartinLogan. My girlfriend is flying to a job interview in Queens on monday for after she graduates, and if she gets it, these may just be the ticket for her. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3857 Registered: Mar-05 | $1900 for a pair of bookshelves? Ouch, you must REALLY like them! |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 983 Registered: Feb-05 | eddie, they are amazing speakers. If you have a dealer near you that carries them (I believe you said you do) I would reccomend you take a listen to them. This is a speaker that I am at a loss to describe how they sound, because nothig about them really jumps out at me besides how they stay out of the way. Nothing screams "I do this job, look at me." I can fault ML electrostats, which I think are amazing speakers as you all know, but the sig. 2 is a speaker that I can't really find any fault with aside from its inability to play deep (below 40Hz) bass. Everything else is what an audiophile pays big bucks for, and it is here in a modestly priced package compared to the big ticket items. |
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Bronze Member Username: DobyblueSt. Catharines, Ontario Canada Post Number: 65 Registered: Oct-05 | Gavin which MLs would you be debating over with the S2? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1203 Registered: May-05 | Eddie - The reason why some Paradigms are difficult to drive isn't due to sensitivity, and Paradigm doesn't do a good job describing their impedence. "Compatible with 8 Ohms receivers" is a joke. They have very erratic impedence swings, which need a power supply that can handle huge dips and peaks. As discussed earlier, your Panasonic receiver would be a horrible match due to it's having some problems with this. While some receivers may be 'adequate' with Paradigms, they really need at least a good integrated amp to show their capablilities. I've heard Paradigms with Marantz receivers and it's a bad mix. A local Paradigm dealer used to set them up with a Marantz receiver right next to Rotel integrateds to show people the Studios needed a lot of current even though they "weren't a difficult load." That's not a knock on either company, they're both very good. I just don't think they get along well at all. Listen to them with a Rotel or NAD integrated or seperates and you'll see why so many people love them. Gavin - The dealer I'm refering to is Clark Music. They have a store in Syracuse. Ever been their? They closed the home audio section of the Latham store, but kept the piano section open. The Latham store was great. It's really a shame they closed. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3860 Registered: Mar-05 | Stu, hm, you've made a strong case indeed on the Paradigms needing quality current. I wonder if my local dealer would let me bring in my NAD separates to test them on, heh. |
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Silver Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 997 Registered: Feb-05 | Steven, I am referring to ALL of them, with the exception granted to the Statements. MartinLogan speakers are a hybrid design, and I can hear the difference between the woofer cone and stat panel, especially with the newer designs. MartinLogans are also not for all music types, whereas Paradigms excel at all that is thrown at them. Stu, The Clark in Cuse is the one I used to go to. I haven't been there in a while, but the last time I called, I was under the impression that they still were under operation. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3098 Registered: Feb-05 | It wasn't until I bought my Prima Luna integrated that I realized how good Studio 20's could sound. My NAD/Hafler combo was nice but didn't sound half as good as what I have now. The Studio 20's will only sound as good as what you put in them. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3866 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, I'm very surprised to hear you say that about your PL tube vs. your former NAD/Hafler combo, since when people say that a speaker needs good electronics I thought they mean really powerful current---which is where I'd expect your Hafler to blow the PL out of the water! I usually hear people raving about tubes being warm and musical, but never for them being POWERFUL... ??? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3101 Registered: Feb-05 | The PL performs better at volume than my other combo with the 20's. The 20's present an easygoing load which tubes really love. The Hafler/NAD combo may have played louder but who could listen to it. My current setup plays musically and dynamically at as high a volume as I would care to listen. This amp drove the Naim Arriva and Spendor 5Se's with ease. The sound of a tube amp depends on a lot of different factors not the least of which is output tubes which my amp uses KT88's. They aren't quite as warm and fuzzy as say for instance EL34's but they present a tighter bass and clearer mid and high end. For a good discussion on this I suggest you read through the tube talk thread over at amps. In particular pay attention to where Jan explains to Paul F the many characteristics of tubes. Very informative. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3102 Registered: Feb-05 | PS - I'm sure you've heard folks comment on tube watts versus solid state watts. The old adage that "watts is watts" ain't the whole story. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1343 Registered: Dec-03 | Hey Art, it's the first watt that really matters! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3106 Registered: Feb-05 | That's it Rick.... |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3870 Registered: Mar-05 | Art, I'll look into that other thread you mentioned, but for now I'm curious as to what you mean by "at volume"---do you have a RatShack SPL meter around? Just wondering you're talking about 70db or 80db or even +90db... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3110 Registered: Feb-05 | I do have an SPL meter. But what I mean by "at volume" is at the highest volume I usually listen to music. I don't bring out the SPL meter for that. I would guess that it would be upper 80's low 90's at peak (when I'm in a raucous mood). |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 913 Registered: May-05 | OK, I've been on the sideline long enough, put me in coach, I'm ready to play, today. Ed, I'll help ya defend the Ascend 170s (I've only heard the 340c, which is sounding much better since I added the new pre/pro), they're an incredibly good speaker at their price point -very clean, clear highs, mids are smooth and the bass is lacking so I use a sub. Are they in the Studio 40 league, not to my ears but we're talking 3 times the cost. Now,with my sub, it's a far closer match - IMHO. Art and I disagree here on how close. Money aside, I'd take the Studios although I haven't heard Art's 20s. As to tubes vs. SS, Art and Rick are absolutely correct. Watts ain't watts here. Tubes will continue to push speakers even at levels that I don't normally listen to and they may cause clipping but it takes some outrageous levels to get there even with my 25 wpc. Compared to the 125 wpc SS upstairs, the tubes just do it better and cleaner, warmer, and kinder? I can listen to loud levels without the brassness that you get in SS and the speakers just sing, it's never fatiguing. Now, throw in a decent pair of speakers that aren't a tough load and that can handle dynamic power and you're in audio heaven. So, TOOBS RULE!!!! Come on over and listen anytime, Ed. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3114 Registered: Feb-05 | TOOBS RULE!!!!!! Here here!!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2236 Registered: Dec-04 | down in front |
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Bronze Member Username: RushwjKnoxville, TN USA Post Number: 32 Registered: Feb-05 | Interesting discussion. I just recently paired my Studio 20's w/ a Marantz 7500 receiver (110w) and am very pleased w/ the sound in my environment. I'm definitely looking to upgrade to separates but i've been so pleased w/ the marantz that it'll be about two years before i get around to it. just my two cents. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2243 Registered: Dec-04 | Yhay should be a good combo Will. As Art has suggested, the 4300(?) cd player might add a little more sparkle to the kit. And it's cheap. |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3876 Registered: Mar-05 | don't know about tubes (yet), but the 4300 RULES!!! lol |
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New member Username: DcorPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-06 | I am wondering if someone has tried the HK AVR as preamp with Rotel amp to drive Paradigm Studios? I'm planning my next upgrade and I am thinking of getting my Paradigm 20s and Paradigm CC hooked up to a separate Rotel amp connected to my HK avr 335. I dont have a way of auditioning them so I am looking for anyone who has tried this combo. Eventually I would like to get a larger Studio series for the mains and move the 20s to the rears. |
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Gold Member Username: GavincummNew York USA Post Number: 1008 Registered: Feb-05 | that will be a fantastic combo! Rotel will drive the 20's beautifully! Much better than an AVR. |
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Bronze Member Username: QuinnPost Number: 94 Registered: Aug-05 | "PS. The Studios like most speakers should have more bass than the CBM-170s" The 170SE is speced as equal to the Studio 20 in bass. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2508 Registered: Dec-04 | I run a Rotel 5ch power amp with H/K AVR as pre. The real difference I found was in attack speed. I never found the H/K lacking, but the difference was immediate. The power amp extended, or corrected, the mid rolloffs as well, and the power is put to good use. H/K AVR55 5x 55w. Rotel RB985Mk2 THX |
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Gold Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 3967 Registered: Mar-05 | correct you are Quinn, nice to see you back in these parts! |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 945 Registered: May-05 | David, It would work, I ran my Adcom amp with my Denon 3803 as a pre for a couple of months. Recently, changed out the Denon for a dedicated Outlaw 970 pre/pro and much better improvement. So, what Nuck said. Quinn, we missed ya. I've been working my behinder off and haven't been able to check in. TOOBS STILL RULE!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 2526 Registered: Dec-04 | Down in front. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 947 Registered: May-05 | LOL |
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New member Username: DcorPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-06 | Guys, Thanks for the inputs. I decided to hold off as the person who was working me a deal says it wont happen for a few more months. I went through the exerice of listening to Rotel and Arcam AVR300 with Paradigm Studios for both HT and Stereo. I must say there was a noticeable difference to both systems. Rotel seemed stronger on the mid frequencies. The sound seemed to be more forward (kinda more aggressive), and had more impact with the home theater environment. The arcam had a more laid back sound and not as striking (for effects I mean) in home theater. It had a more delicate sound when it came to stereo. Since I am pushing back my purchase, I have now started to consider the new Arcam AVR 350 (which has the HDMI) and also the higher end audio internals. I am guessing the Arcam will also have the pre-outs such as the AVR 300 for future external amp upgrades. Again still in the dreaming phase as this amp should cost around $3k CAD... David |