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New member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi everyone ... I have had trouble in the past years trying to somewhat preserve analog dynamic range, being portable, better-known-as, Taping LPs ... I have been using a post-millenium model Pioneer Cassette Dual Deck and an 80's model Technics Turntable ... mainly, I have had inconsistent results taping my records ... I know that the kind of tape used and condition of the LP most affect the quality of sound, so for LPs I treasure, I have been using my tiny stash of Very-Rare Maxell MS-X Metal Tapes ... I recently acquired them and was expecting a total night-and-day difference in sound quality ... however, the results were less than impressive ... The recordings using these tapes sound almost identical to the lesser-quality tapes I use such as the TDK "Superiors" ... I do use automatic recording-leveling when I transfer because I seem to get the best quality/volume results ... however, my tape deck dosen't seem to be utilizing the new-found quality of these cassette tapes ... Am I doing something wrong? Is it possible that my Tape Deck is not good enough to take advantage of the MS-X? Additionally, I can really use all the advice I can get on recording LPs to Cassette Tape ... Please shower me with general tips {^.^} ... Thanks ... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8175 Registered: May-04 | I hate to rain on your parade but your cassette deck will not be able to take advantage of the meatal type tapes. They require a very strong bias current that the electronics and heads of your deck can't provide. Stick to a good quality type II tape. The best advice I can give regrading cassette recording is to have you pick one brand and type of tape that you will use consistently. Take the deck into a technician with about six of these tapes and have the tech set the deck up for these tapes. Turn off the auto level set and discuss with the technician the what and how you record. The meters can be adjusted to accomodate the material you are recording though these are very cheap averaging meters and are, for serious recording, useless. Learn what drives your deck into distortion and overload and you have to be responsible for setting levels to avoid those two problems. Other than that you should be able to make as good a tape as the Pioneer will allow. |
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Bronze Member Username: Nottingham365MA USA Post Number: 15 Registered: Mar-06 | Anselmo, Generally, dual well decks sacrifice quality. To feature dual wells, the manufacturer cuts costs elsewhere. The deck's recording performance is probably not comparable to that of a single well deck of similar cost. As you considered, your deck will not fully exploit the metal tape's capability. You might consider buying a used single well deck in decent condition depending on your usage. If you buy a three head deck, you can monitor the recording as the LP (or any other source material) is being recorded. In most cases, I would have a deck tuned up upon purchase (e.g., transport path cleaned, demagnetized; belts changed, etc.). Of course, you may not want to spend the money. (Just a suggestion). Since analog cassette recording is not popular in this digital world, there is a huge supply of used decks in the marketplace. I am not familiar with your Pioneer model. It must feature a tape selector. If so, the setting should be Type IV (Metal) for the Maxell MX-S cassettes. I assume you are using Dolby B or Dolby C noise reduction. Are you playing your recorded cassettes in the Pioneer deck or in a car or other deck? The play deck must feature the same noise reduction used during recording to achieve the benefits. Also, keep in mind that a cassette recorded in one deck and played in another deck will not sound identical. Some decks feature an azimuth (alignment) control to address this condition. You mentioned an "automatic recording-leveling" feature. Does this act to set the record levels and adjust them during the recording process? Perhaps the manual supplies some details about the feature that you are not considering. If you can override that feature and manually set levels before recording, you might achieve better results. I suggest that you play some loud passages of the LP to assist you in setting recording levels before recording. With Metal (Type IV) cassettes, setting meter levels that peak beyond +5db will probably be fine. You can try and determine what sounds best to you. Experiment. Very important: Are you periodically cleaning the play, record and erase heads, capstans and pinch rollers? How about periodically demagnetizing the heads and capstans? I can provide more information on those procedures if you are interested. While easy to use, the cleaning and demagnetizing cassettes are not as effective as using proper cleaning fluid, cotton swabs and a demagnetizing wand. Without cleaning and demagnetizing, you will definitely achieve lesser results. Has your deck experienced heavy usage through the years? Perhaps the heads (play and/or record) are worn significantly, which would adversely affect performance. Has the deck ever been tuned up? Decks do require periodic service to operate at their best. Well, enough prolixity for now. If you have any more questions, I will try to help. |
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New member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for the info Jan ... Are you able to refer me to a tape deck that has a strong enough bias current for the tapes I am trying to use? I'd greatly appreciate it ... It's really unfortunate that I had alredy wasted about 4 tapes ... But I'm glad to know now that it's basically pointless to use metal with the deck I have ... However, it's funny I got this message today ... just a little while ago, I pulled out an old tape deck of my dad's ... it no longer works, but it's a Sansui SC-3110 ... it looks pretty old, but maybe it's worth revamping? Well Jan, much thanks for the advice ... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8190 Registered: May-04 | Cassette decks are difficult beasts to peg. At one time, there were a few contenders other than Nakamichi that gave acceptable performance in the format. Most of those decks would now be so old they aren't worth recommending. If you can find either a Nakamichi or a Sony ES deck, you can do a decent job of recording onto cassette tape. However, both decks used an unusual equalization scheme and will give poor playback results on another deck. Beyond that most cassette decks became dreck in the late 1970's when CD was poised to take over the market. To be honest I don't know why you would want to record to cassette today when you can buy a CD recorder for under $150. You will spend that much for a decent cassette deck and still need to have it set up by a technician. Due to the mechanism of the cassette format, with a tape that is not held taught across the tape heads unless you get a dual capstan deck (which then should be a three motor deck, and now we're talking some money even for a used deck) the tape skew, tape and head saturation, phase problems along with wow and flutter makes top notch recording all but impossible on 95% of what was ever sold. Why not just invest in a good CD recorder? |
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New member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Ross ... thanks a lot for the advice ... but as Jan also mentioned earlier, the deck just dosen't cut it ... so at this point, I'm looking into a replacement, however, I'd love to continue using the Pioneer for other reasons ... Oh, just a note, The Pioneer does have a meter for playback and recording ... It goes from -18db to about +6db ... It's really just a meter for measure, and when not using the attenuator, I simply manipulate the volume accordingly ... I have no true source of gain control ... I'm not sure of the technical processes that govern this feature (attenuator)... Also, there is no tape-type selector at all, since Type III is basically extinct, I assume that the manufacturer prepared it for Type II ... However I read that Most recorders/players handle Types II and IV similarly and audible difference is only in the fact that high frequencies are exaggerated when playing back a Type IV that was recorded with a Type IIs setting ... However, I'm sure that isn't the final word on the matter ... I shudder when looking at your suggestion of recording at levels peaking at/near +5db ... I have had experiences of "muddy" sounding tapes when recording past -3 db ... but maybe maintenance is the main issue ... I record mostly Classical and Jazz so the issue probably isn't the source material either ... Which brings me here: ... I periodically use a Maxell Tape Head Cleaning Cassette, but I have no idea how to clean and de-magnetize as you mentioned earlier ... however, I'd love to know ... I do have cotton swabs {^.^} ... The Pioneer was manufactured between 1999-2002 and has NOT had much use ... so there should be no issues of wear and tear as much as there are issues of dirt and dust ... Also, there has been no tune-up ... Thanks for any more info you can provide ... I really appreciate it ... and if there are any ways to home-make a de-mag wand, and/or fluid, I'd love to know ... my pockets are quite small ... |
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New member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Maybe I should just get a CD Recorder Jan (I may end up doing so out of sheer frustration) ... But my great interest of late has been the portability of analogue sound which was dominated by the cassette tape ... I do own a decent Cassette Walkman (Sony Walkman Recorder, and still wish to enjoy it along with some LPs I have yet to record) ... So these are my reasons for being stubborn {^.^} ... After listening to a cassette of Michael Jackson's "Off The Wall" ... I was again reminded of the beauty of analogue sound ... I guess I just want to preserve it ... |
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Bronze Member Username: Nottingham365MA USA Post Number: 16 Registered: Mar-06 | Anselmo, You indicated that the Pioneer deck features no tape type selector. Perhaps the deck is set up for Type I (normal/ferric). "Oh, just a note, The Pioneer does have a meter for playback and recording ... It goes from -18db to about +6db ... It's really just a meter for measure, and when not using the attenuator, I simply manipulate the volume accordingly ... I have no true source of gain control" Anselmo I don't understand your comments there. If you can set recording levels manually, bypassing the auto functions, try it. You didn't indicate whether or not you are employing any Dolby noise reduction. Maintenance: This fluid is safe for heads, capstans AND rubber pinch rollers: http://americanrecorder.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=12&products_id=108 You can use isopropyl alcohol (~90%+) for heads and capstans. I would avoid 70%+ isopropyl alcohol since it contains more additives/softeners, I believe. It is unwise to apply ANY isopropyl alcohol to the rubber pinch rollers since it will dry and accelerate the deterioration of the rubber. I have read about other liquids for cleaning, but some can cause damage. Be cautious. Remove the deck well door, if possible, to facilitate access to heads, capstans, pinch rollers. With fluid on a cotton swab, clean those parts. You don't want the cotton swab dripping with fluid, but don't be stingy either. If the swab is heavily soaked, just roll it on a folded paper towel and tap the swab tip on the paper towel to absorb the excess before applying to the deck parts. When you notice the cotton swab getting dirty, toss it and use a clean swab with fluid. Tip: If your deck permits "play" with the door open/removed and the well empty, the pinch roller will turn, allowing you to gently place the cotton swab against the pinch roller for a fine cleaning. (Otherwise, the roller is a nuisance to clean). Just be careful that the cotton swab fibers don't get caught (pinched) by the capstan/roller contact. If you decide to use 90%+ isopropyl alcohol instead of the specialty fluid, infrequent application to the rubber pinch rollers probably won't be a huge issue. But don't do it often. Clean heads, capstans, pinch rollers after every 10-12 hours of usage. Allow at least a half hour drying time after cleaning before you use the deck. Note caveat above about isopropyl alcohol and rubber pinch rollers. For demagnetization, use of the wand is a nuisance but more effective than the demagnetization cassette. But the demagnetization cassette is better than nothing. I don't know about "homemaking" a wand. They are available on ebay for small money. If not careful, you can cause damage with the wand. Please note sequence of procedures. Remove the deck well door, if possible. While holding the wand far away from the deck, plug in the wand electrical cord. After turning on the wand power switch, slowly approach the deck with the wand. Move wand tip slowly over heads and capstans for several seconds. Pull the wand slowly away from the deck. Switch off wand (after moving wand slowly away from deck). Finally, unplug wand cord. Unfortunately, many metal wand tips don't have a rubber coating. Special care must be taken so that you don't contact heads and capstans with the metal wand tip. Tip: If you can find a plastic straw that fits snugly around the wand tip, cut a small length and slide it over the wand tip so that the straw tip is slightly beyond the metal wand tip. I think that the goose neck flex type straws attached to sports drink bottles might do the trick. Demagnetization need not be performed as often as the cleaning. If you decide to purchase a "new" used deck, here are some suggested brands: Nakamichi, harman/kardon, TEAC. Several are available in the marketplace, some very inexpensive. Sources include www.ebay.com (where tons are available) and www.audiogon.com (where few are listed). Features available (among others): 2 heads, 3 heads, multiple motors, Dolby B, C, S, Dolby HX Pro (headroom extension), bias and sensitivity calibration). As I mentioned in my first post, I would have a deck tuned up, possibly overhauled, upon purchase. Much of what is out there has not been used or serviced in years. After all, it is a digital world. Better performance justifies the cost of service. As another member indicated, you can have a deck calibrated/optimized for a specific tape of each type (I, II, IV), which would allow you to produce better recordings, assuming the deck you use does not feature advanced functions of bias and sensitivity calibration for the user. (Some higher end decks feature those functions; unfortunately, they are sometimes inaccurate). The technician will require a sample cassette of each type to calibrate the deck. For best long term results, you should have a large inventory of identical cassettes for future use. If you have a supply of a particular brand and type that was purchased over an extended period, the cassettes may not be identical in formulation (e.g., a Maxell XLII purchased today would not be identical to a Maxell XLII purchased ten years ago). Companies change a specific formulation over time. Today, it is more difficult to find a competent technician for cassette deck maintenance than it was during the cassette format's heyday. Many people deride the cassette format. I can only say that a modestly priced, well maintained deck and a high grade Type II blank have produced many respectable recordings for me. Admittedly, I do not have golden ears. If you want clarification on anything, have additional questions and/or want specific deck suggestions, let me know. Ross |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8216 Registered: May-04 | If the deck has no manual selection for tape type, is is done automatically by sensing the cut outs in the top of the cassette housing. The Pioneer uses very inexpensive averaging meters and will not truly reflect the amount of energy going into the head. This is one reason it pays to get used to one particular tape. Even with averaging meters you can learn how the tape responds in your deck and know when to push the levels and when to back off. As with amplifiers, deep bass can easily swamp a tape head at lower levels that mid or high frequencies would. Always set levels with the loudest portions of the record as a reference. You can identify these moments on any modern LP by looking at the grooves and judging the widest, deepest grooves to be the portion that is most reflective on the disc surface. These loud portions are reflective because more space is provided between grooves and therefore more v!rgin vinyl is left uncut and will reflect the light. Make a few trial recordings for level check of these loud passages before you commit an entire tape to the process. Run these tests a bit into the tape as the ends of the spool often are not exactly similar to the middle. Clean the deck on a regular basis. As suggested, other than the rubber pinch roller, you cannot over clean the tape path. Clean the pinch roller often but using isopropyl alchohol will probably not be a serious problem as the pinch roller will likely wear out before it dries out. Or the deck will die and require replacement before the pinch roller wears out. Demagnetizing the head is, as a rule, not important. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS WITH ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE CORRECT DEMAG DEVICE. Scratch the head and your deck is ruined. However, most cassette decks have a degaussing effect when the unit is powered up. In all the time I worked with service techs, I never saw a deck that had a head so magnetized it would cause problems. Demag is often more for your feelings of well being than is needed by the deck. The demag cassettes are better than you need in most cases and less than would be required to do the job properly. Most decks beneath the top flight models can only be set up for one type of tape. They have no provisions for individual bias and EQ settings for anything more than a gross overall adjustment. Certainly the tape path is aligned only for one specicifc tape. Tape formulations do change over time, less so now than ten years ago. If you learn how a specific tape type responds in your deck, you'll be able to notice these changes and alter the recording process appropriately. |
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New member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks So Much Ross and Jan ... I'll be sure to use your method of cleaning Ross ... it sounds pretty simple ... in all honesty, I must say that I have never cleaned any of the tape parts ... I was under the impression that as long as I didn't 'record-over' material, I would not get magnetized fragments all over the place ... I have no idea who told me this ... haha ... but I'm glad it's been squashed ... so I'm looking forward to making a new recording of an album I've had for a while and have really been feeling: Pat Metheny's "Watercolors" (1977) on some XLII ... Just a note Jan, Good News, I have found a Nakamichi Deck on E-Bay and should be getting it within 2 weeks ... it's a lower end model (DR-3) but It's a Nak nonetheless ... So I have already started the search for a reputable technician in the ChicagoLand Area ... I haven't found one yet ... but First, I'll implement Ross' method of Cleaning, that's for sure {^.^} ... Another Aside: About a week ago, I was curious to check out this Laser Turntable (ELP) from Japan, so I contacted Chiba-san (President/CEO) and he sent me a demo CD (ironically) sampling the ELP over other "needle-based" Turntables ... I must say, there was a noticeable difference ... but it wasn't huge ... I think the main selling point was the fact that the ELP uses laser energy to read the Vinyl grooves, hence, leaving it without degradation ... ANYWAY ... I just thought this was really cool but I am continually puzzled at the fact Laser Light can produce sound that remains purely analog ... it almost sounds like an oxymoron yeno ... I'm just so used to "laser" and "digital" coupled in the same context ... ... So I was just wondering if any of you had heard of this technology and your thoughts on it ... and if anyone has the Vocabulary of Laymen to explain to me the M.O., I'd be delighted ... It's crazy expensive ... but as a future-audiophile, I assured Chiba-san that I'd purchase one when I hit some bigger bucks ... {^.^} ... If anyone has never heard of the technology, here's the link: www.laserturntable.com ... Hey Ross and Jan ... got any favorite LP's ?? |
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Bronze Member Username: Nottingham365MA USA Post Number: 17 Registered: Mar-06 | Anselmo, Glad to help. Best wishes with the Nakamichi DR-3. I will read about the laser turntable. Pretty wild. I think a similar turntable was developed some years ago but never released to the consumer market because it was deemed unprofitable. Maybe if you initiate a new thread, the vinyl addicts will respond. If you want to talk tunes, start a thread under /media/music and I will chime in. If we talk music under phono, I believe we will be lynched (figuratively speaking) by other ecoustics members. Long live the analog cassette. Ross |
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Bronze Member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-06 | Hey Jan and Ross ... I just paid for the Nakamichi ... and it should be here by the end of the month/beginning of May ... so I was looking around for a tech ... found one in North Chicago ... but can't yet get a tune-up ... Here's a question: Is it best to wait until I can get a tune-up before using the deck AT ALL? ; or would I be fine cleaning it myself (and solely cleaning being that I have no DeMag wand) and using it here and there until I can get the tuneup ... WOULD THERE BE A RISK OF DAMAGE IN THIS CASE? |
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Bronze Member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | Oh ... another question ... Is it normal for an LP that is slightly flat or sharp at the beginning of the side to get progressively worse by the end of that side ? I've noticed that, but the funny thing is, it isn't a consistent problem ... I've noticed mainly via the strobe's undulations being "gentle" at the beginning of a side, and damn-near jogging by the center of the side ... but as it was mentioned earlier, maybe this isn't such a problem as my ears could not tell ... |
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Bronze Member Username: Nottingham365MA USA Post Number: 21 Registered: Mar-06 | Anselmo, I suggest that you don't use the deck until it has been serviced. You don't know its history. Running a cassette through it could damage the tape. Cleaning the deck components would be fine and a good exercise since the process is new to you. If the door can be removed, that will make the job easier and you will achieve better results. Regarding your turntable question, it sounds like the turntable speed needs adjustment; maybe it's time for a turntable tune up. |
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Bronze Member Username: Blazingarrow74Chicago, IL U.S.A. Post Number: 41 Registered: Mar-06 | Hey Everone ... I have a question about the new Nak ... Please see my recent thread in the Cassette Forum ... thanks for all your help !! |